ESIs and Sadism

[Adam Strange]

Which would mean that I'm actually a 1w2 instead of a 2w1?



Interesting! But isn't it hard to find people who both have a matching Socionics type, enneagram type and subwing, interests, values? And for dating it would also be necessary that they are within your preferred range of physiques and age, as well as identifying with your preferred gender and you all of this for them. Is this combination of characteristics not extremely rare to find in someone and would it thus not be "better to lower one's standards" from a theoretical vantage point?

Hey, don't the movies show two people shooting at each other and the bullets meeting head-on in mid air?

More seriously (but not much more seriously), I've found that there exist a set of most common enneatypes for each sociotype, and that there is a trend that the enneatypes of one Dual do not overlap with the enneatypes of the other Dual. This mostly works out for everyone except the LII e5's, who are stuck with themselves.

https://www.9types.com/writeup/ennea...ationships.php

[Armitage]

https://www.9types.com/writeup/ennea...ationships.php

The difficulty is that in my case it would be a gay relationship, which means that I don't know if I should look on the husband or the wife side of the table or if the data even apply to non-heterosexual relationships. What I do know, however, is that I seem to vibe best with 6w7 ESI-Ses, because they're both loyal and spontaneous. I need to losen up and live life more in the here and now instead of working all the time on the future and for others. But I do want someone who I can have fun with and who helps me enjoy life, while also being loyal. I think it's a rare, yet valuable combination to find someone who is both committed and spontaneous.

[Beautiful sky]

ESI: “if you don’t clean MY kitchen I’ll beat the shit out of you.”

[Beautiful sky]

In general sense, a sadism is kind of aggressive behavior with an aim to make a pain or a harm. In this it's not related to concrete types.
Some types may have more predisposition or lesser. ESI prefer when people feel emotionally good (Fi), so they lesser behave with primary sadistic emotional motivation. While Fe types should do it the most - they are accented on emotions and have Fi nonvalued.

Se types like to control on physical level, what is not about emotions. Though, secondary, a more a human follows to your decisions when he does not like the process - this shows more control above him. Also Se types easier ignore nonvalued Si - need in pleasant sensations and cofmort, so easier ignore a pain and may offer this attitude to other people. They more often have sexual games with a pain (as, for example, pain stimulates endorphines production). This all is secondary to sadism - the aim is another.

No
Quite a few of them are aggressive and posture aggressive attitudes in their children

[Renna]

To be fair, as a Ni/Se Quadra with no Fe value, being harsh with each others probably a common thing in this Quadra.

Both SEE and ESI can be very hot headed, and directly confronted each others is the common way to sold serious relationship issues for them. In the other hand the NT can be very dick and heartless and need getting kick in the ass sometime

ESI is probably the harshest of them when they piss lol. Being the corrector of the Quadra probably give them some special power over the other three…

[End]

To be fair, as a Ni/Se Quadra with no Fe value, being harsh with each others probably a common thing in this Quadra.

Both SEE and ESI can be very hot headed, and directly confronted each others is the common way to sold serious relationship issues for them. In the other hand the NT can be very dick and heartless and need getting kick in the ass sometime

ESI is probably the harshest of them when they piss lol. Being the corrector of the Quadra probably give them some special power over the other three…

Both The ILI and LIE actually like the hot headed directness of their duals. Though from my end the SEE is a wee bit gentler about it and the LIE can lean rather harder into being a dick.

They both compliment each other ironically. The SEE can seem harsher at first, but then when her ILI sweetheart starts to break down they're quick to soften up a bit. Whereas an ESI will keep going harder but the LIE was/is so starved of someone actually going in hard against them they just eat it up.

There's a reason why the LIE is the stereotypical Fortune 500 CEO and why said CEO's frequent hardcore Dominatrix clubs. Said Dominatrixes are all doms of some variant and the most successful are likely ESI's as that's duality in action.

Sadly for both duality isn't anywhere near the top reason why any interpersonal relationship works out positively. That's more dependent on Attachment and, sadly for both of them, neither tend to know of what that even is!

Prediction: I'm likely to end up marrying an LSI. She'll be an LSI with Secure attachment however so it'll actually work out for us both despite us not matching up ideally. At least we can bond a bit on how our is rather overdeveloped. I won't exactly dig how hard she unilaterally goes in on me when she's in the mood but I won't refuse for reasons both logical and religious.

Fun fact: Once a couple is married it is considered a mortal sin to refuse your spouse the marital act if requested in a logical setting. For instance? Your both at home. Your both certain nobody else is watching and your kids are both asleep and in seperate rooms. To refuse your spouse sex after all those other conditions are cleared is to be guilty of the mortal sin of Spousal Neglect!

And all you other protestants and heathens thought us Devout Catholics to be absolute prudes of the puritan variety. Has nobody else but me done any homework!!!

[Renna]

Both The ILI and LIE actually like the hot headed directness of their duals. Though from my end the SEE is a wee bit gentler about it and the LIE can lean rather harder into being a dick.

They both compliment each other ironically. The SEE can seem harsher at first, but then when her ILI sweetheart starts to break down they're quick to soften up a bit. Whereas an ESI will keep going harder but the LIE was/is so starved of someone actually going in hard against them they just eat it up.

There's a reason why the LIE is the stereotypical Fortune 500 CEO and why said CEO's frequent hardcore Dominatrix clubs. Said Dominatrixes are all doms of some variant and the most successful are likely ESI's as that's duality in action.

Sadly for both duality isn't anywhere near the top reason why any interpersonal relationship works out positively. That's more dependent on Attachment and, sadly for both of them, neither tend to know of what that even is!

Prediction: I'm likely to end up marrying an LSI. She'll be an LSI with Secure attachment however so it'll actually work out for us both despite us not matching up ideally. At least we can bond a bit on how our is rather overdeveloped. I won't exactly dig how hard she unilaterally goes in on me when she's in the mood but I won't refuse for reasons both logical and religious.

Fun fact: Once a couple is married it is considered a mortal sin to refuse your spouse the marital act if requested in a logical setting. For instance? Your both at home. Your both certain nobody else is watching and your kids are both asleep and in seperate rooms. To refuse your spouse sex after all those other conditions are cleared is to be guilty of the mortal sin of Spousal Neglect!

And all you other protestants and heathens thought us Devout Catholics to be absolute prudes of the puritan variety. Has nobody else but me done any homework!!!

Good luck with the LSI. They are hot, and disciplined.

[lucasmason848]

Gigabased, a fellow Roman Catholic. I was confirmed April 2022 at a FSSP parish. Your grasp of the morality of marriage sounds similarly attuned to mine. In any case, I recommend the "Handbook of Moral Theology" by Prummer, as it's hard to find good theological sources these days and you seem like someone who could make good use of it. Anyway, when it comes to ESI aggressiveness, I definitely agree with you. Although, in my experience, in normal social interaction it is always restrained by the ethical program. As soon as this has some justification to apply force, though, a "causus belli" so to speak, it is really game on for them. Overall these people are great, though. The right ESI is pretty much as interesting of a relation as duality. I'll definitely end up with either an ESI or SEE. Cool to year you're trying to end up with an LSI. Renna's take is pretty much it. Have fun.

[FDG]

Both The ILI and LIE actually like the hot headed directness of their duals.

Tbh no, of course yes if I am neglecting my duties but usually I don't - maybe I just forgot about something - then I like a sassy reminder, but if you try to discipline me, I will never bend (usually I am disciplined unless I'm sick / have physical problems) - I would rather break the relationship than bend.

What's good is when ESIs use their Se to help me fight against the outside world if someone does something unjust to me, which is far more likely to happen compared to me neglecting my duties. Technically a dual should help you fight towards a common goal. Another usage of Se is purely physical, like a good ESI friend of mine is a great sprinter in cycling races and I am an awesome pacer (sprint = Se, pace = Te), if we're both in good form we are unstoppable, I pace and tire his opponents, he sprints at maximum at the final and wins. Sometimes he tries to "discipline" me telling me that I am wasting too much energy - that's fine, something I can accept. OTOH we have another SEE teammate and he constantly whines that my outfit is not perfect...I never ever pace for him.

[Fluffy Princess Unicorn]

ESI: “if you don’t clean MY kitchen I’ll beat the shit out of you.”

That's not personality, that's just toxicity.

[Fluffy Princess Unicorn]

Generally speaking, the aggressor aspect of ESIs is not frequently talked about in the Socionics community, and according to the Oldham site, LIEs are portrayed as sadistic instead. Even the overgeneralized (and sometimes plain wrong) description of the "strict disciplinarian" have very little to do with being an aggressor. This is odd considering how other aggressors are portrayed even in real life, but since the majority of LIEs are male, maybe this played a role as well.

However, the thing I noticed with ESIs is that they seem to enjoy it and smile when someone is hurt emotionally or showing vulnerability. I don't completely understand it, but I imagine it's a typical aggressor characteristic, and it can be quite seductive sometimes.

Have you guys witnessed it before?
Do you have insight into that kind of behaviour?
What are some other aggressor characteristics seen in ESIs?

I realize this is an old post, but if ANYONE OF ANY "TYPE" is sadistic and enjoys hurting others, that is a huge red flag and you should stay the hell away from them. If you find that seductive, you probably have some psychological things going on in yourself from prior life experiences, and you should seek help in some way; counseling/therapy, thorough research, whatever resources for improvement you prefer to use.

This is coming from an ESI-Se, by the way. That shit is not type related, nor is that what "aggressor" in Socionics means.

I realize ESI's are described as being "eye for an eye," and that description does suit me, but even when I am giving someone a taste of their own medicine, it isn't that I just want revenge or I enjoy inflicting harm on them. Even when I'm angry, I still don't have the heart to derive pleasure from harming others--although I am capable of that when the situation involves sex trafficking children, raping and murdering children, abusing and torturing animals, or basically being sadistic and twisted enough to be cruel to the innocent and defenseless things in this world. Outside of that, though...in the more commonplace and general situations, when I inflict damage in recompense for something that someone has said or done (regardless of whether that is to defend myself or others), I'm doing it to make them feel the harm and consequences of their own actions so that they will potentially change their shitty ways. That is my way of "giving them a chance, an opportunity, to become a better person." So, even while I inflict harm, my intentions aren't to tear down, but rather, to build them up. Sometimes you have to get rough with others in order to stimulate their growth, and other times, honey works better than vinegar. Whether or not this is going to be the most effective method to use on someone is a matter of judgment; the decision on what approach to take entails discerning what amount of force/"Se" that each individual is likely to respond to, based on how their personality is and other factors. Inflicting damage is not a sadistic pleasure. Far from it. It is trying to reach through to someone because you care about others and there is a motivation to improve the world around you. For ESI, "stimulating growth and improvement in the world around you" specifically revolves around human dynamics and personal relationships, as opposed to something such as developing traffic systems, coming up with strategies to reduce pollution, or whateverthefuck else other people do to improve the world around them.

There are also times when you know the other person will not change, nor be receptive, no matter how you approach them. I tend to ignore their existence as much as I possibly can. I don't want to mirror their actions back to them or use the "eye for an eye" approach with them, because then I'm just getting caught up in the conflict and BECOMING the very monster that I cannot stand. I don't want to deviate from my own values for no reason that way. If I stray from my own values, it is a temporary thing I do for the specific purpose of stimulating positive behavior modifications in someone. It is specifically motivated by the hopes that, if they experience what it feels like, they will increase in empathy for those on the receiving end of their own behaviors. I'm deliberately mirroring someone with the intention of giving them a chance to correct their own values. (Thus, the disciplinarian ESI shit.)

---

The «relationships» element Fi can be described by the following terms: good, kind, evil, delicate, polite, tolerant, quarrelsome, sympathy, antipathy, cruel, bad, hatred, conflict, offence, love (as a relationship), etc.
http://en.socionicasys.org/teorija/d...ichkov/aspekty

Fi: like/dislike, decency and niceness, morals, good/bad, etiquette, humanism, attraction/repulsion, empathy, compassion, attitude towards other human beings, how others are treated, think about other's humanity "let's hear his side," judgements determined by people doing things
https://www.sociotype.com/socionics/...tion_elements/

Fi is the base information metabolism element in ESI's, which means the Se is used in a way that serves the Fi agendas...which is precisely what I have described throughout my anecdotal personal experiences as an ESI myself. The Se force is used to "discipline," Fi wrong/bad/immoral behaviors in others so they will improve by holding to higher standards and better values.

The point I am trying to make by saying all of this, is that neither Se, nor "aggressor," entail being some kind of antisocial (not to be mistaken with asocial--people commonly misuse the word antisocial, but it means having no concern or empathy for others), sociopathic, sadistic, personality. That is not in Socionics, that is in the psychological concept described in dark triad or machaevellian traits. That concept describes a spectrum; on said spectrum, not everyone who possesses some of those traits will be disordered, but when it's on the extreme end and a person possesses a certain number of that classification of traits, that shit is categorized as having a Cluster B personality disorder of some kind...and Borderline Personality Disorder is presently the only curable Cluster B disorder.

@Surreal If you find the sadism "seductive," as you described here, you are extremely vulnerable and you should seek some type of treatment so you can get to the bottom of why you're attracted to this, and how to change the types of people you're "seduced" by, so that you won't potentially end up in (a) relationship(s) with some type of psychopath, serial killer, sociopath, narcissist, or basically just any toxic and abusive people in general. Finding that type of sadism "seductive" is deeply concerning and very serious. (Sex is a different topic, but sadism outside of sex is a huge red flag.)

[anotherperson]

I realize this is an old post, but if ANYONE OF ANY "TYPE" is sadistic and enjoys hurting others, that is a huge red flag and you should stay the hell away from them. If you find that seductive, you probably have some psychological things going on in yourself from prior life experiences, and you should seek help in some way; counseling/therapy, thorough research, whatever resources for improvement you prefer to use.

This is coming from an ESI-Se, by the way. That shit is not type related, nor is that what "aggressor" in Socionics means.

I realize ESI's are described as being "eye for an eye," and that description does suit me, but even when I am giving someone a taste of their own medicine, it isn't that I just want revenge or I enjoy inflicting harm on them. Even when I'm angry, I still don't have the heart to derive pleasure from harming others--although I am capable of that when the situation involves sex trafficking children, raping and murdering children, abusing and torturing animals, or basically being sadistic and twisted enough to be cruel to the innocent and defenseless things in this world. Outside of that, though...in the more commonplace and general situations, when I inflict damage in recompense for something that someone has said or done (regardless of whether that is to defend myself or others), I'm doing it to make them feel the harm and consequences of their own actions so that they will potentially change their shitty ways. That is my way of "giving them a chance, an opportunity, to become a better person." So, even while I inflict harm, my intentions aren't to tear down, but rather, to build them up. Sometimes you have to get rough with others in order to stimulate their growth, and other times, honey works better than vinegar. Whether or not this is going to be the most effective method to use on someone is a matter of judgment; the decision on what approach to take entails discerning what amount of force/"Se" that each individual is likely to respond to, based on how their personality is and other factors. Inflicting damage is not a sadistic pleasure. Far from it. It is trying to reach through to someone because you care about others and there is a motivation to improve the world around you. For ESI, "stimulating growth and improvement in the world around you" specifically revolves around human dynamics and personal relationships, as opposed to something such as developing traffic systems, coming up with strategies to reduce pollution, or whateverthefuck else other people do to improve the world around them.

There are also times when you know the other person will not change, nor be receptive, no matter how you approach them. I tend to ignore their existence as much as I possibly can. I don't want to mirror their actions back to them or use the "eye for an eye" approach with them, because then I'm just getting caught up in the conflict and BECOMING the very monster that I cannot stand. I don't want to deviate from my own values for no reason that way. If I stray from my own values, it is a temporary thing I do for the specific purpose of stimulating positive behavior modifications in someone. It is specifically motivated by the hopes that, if they experience what it feels like, they will increase in empathy for those on the receiving end of their own behaviors. I'm deliberately mirroring someone with the intention of giving them a chance to correct their own values. (Thus, the disciplinarian ESI shit.)

---

The «relationships» element Fi can be described by the following terms: good, kind, evil, delicate, polite, tolerant, quarrelsome, sympathy, antipathy, cruel, bad, hatred, conflict, offence, love (as a relationship), etc.
http://en.socionicasys.org/teorija/d...ichkov/aspekty

Fi: like/dislike, decency and niceness, morals, good/bad, etiquette, humanism, attraction/repulsion, empathy, compassion, attitude towards other human beings, how others are treated, think about other's humanity "let's hear his side," judgements determined by people doing things
https://www.sociotype.com/socionics/...tion_elements/

Fi is the base information metabolism element in ESI's, which means the Se is used in a way that serves the Fi agendas...which is precisely what I have described throughout my anecdotal personal experiences as an ESI myself. The Se force is used to "discipline," Fi wrong/bad/immoral behaviors in others so they will improve by holding to higher standards and better values.

The point I am trying to make by saying all of this, is that neither Se, nor "aggressor," entail being some kind of antisocial (not to be mistaken with asocial--people commonly misuse the word antisocial, but it means having no concern or empathy for others), sociopathic, sadistic, personality. That is not in Socionics, that is in the psychological concept described in dark triad or machaevellian traits. That concept describes a spectrum; on said spectrum, not everyone who possesses some of those traits will be disordered, but when it's on the extreme end and a person possesses a certain number of that classification of traits, that shit is categorized as having a Cluster B personality disorder of some kind...and Borderline Personality Disorder is presently the only curable Cluster B disorder.

@Surreal If you find the sadism "seductive," as you described here, you are extremely vulnerable and you should seek some type of treatment so you can get to the bottom of why you're attracted to this, and how to change the types of people you're "seduced" by, so that you won't potentially end up in (a) relationship(s) with some type of psychopath, serial killer, sociopath, narcissist, or basically just any toxic and abusive people in general. Finding that type of sadism "seductive" is deeply concerning and very serious. (Sex is a different topic, but sadism outside of sex is a huge red flag.)

sadistic tendencies are suspect. but wouldnt some types be more prone then others to sadism ? just the same as any neurosis; like the link from typology to personality disorders.

[Fluffy Princess Unicorn]

sadistic tendencies are suspect. but wouldnt some types be more prone then others to sadism ? just the same as any neurosis; like the link from typology to personality disorders.

It is evidenced that there are certain personality "temperaments" that are more susceptible to certain disorders. However, there aren't any studies that associate these so-called "temperaments" with Socionics personality types. Big 5--which does not have personality types at all--is the most scientifically backed personality system, and there are links between Big 5 traits and certain disorders. It should also be noted that certain facets of Big 5 are changeable, and others are static. That's important to note because it is the only personality classification system that actually contains some fluid/changeable aspects. This is important becauuse it allows nurture to be factored in, unlike the typology personality categorizations.

[anotherperson]

It is evidenced that there are certain personality "temperaments" that are more susceptible to certain disorders. However, there aren't any studies that associate these so-called "temperaments" with Socionics personality types. Big 5--which does not have personality types at all--is the most scientifically backed personality system, and there are links between Big 5 traits and certain disorders. It should also be noted that certain facets of Big 5 are changeable, and others are static. That's important to note because it is the only personality classification system that actually contains some fluid/changeable aspects. This is important becauuse it allows nurture to be factored in, unlike the typology personality categorizations.

that makes a lot of sense. but arent enneagram types also nurture-based? i get its less scientifically validated, but surely it must be competent enough for some to take seriously, it cant be absolutely and completely false. and then that begs the question, if these enneagram types occur with TIMs in certain "pairs" more often then other "pairs", wouldnt that then mean socionic types are linked to nuture, and thus, personality disorder ?

[The Reality Denialist]

that makes a lot of sense. but arent enneagram types also nurture-based? i get its less scientifically validated, but surely it must be competent enough for some to take seriously, it cant be absolutely and completely false. and then that begs the question, if these enneagram types occur with TIMs in certain "pairs" more often then other "pairs", wouldnt that then mean socionic types are linked to nuture, and thus, personality disorder ?

Socionics is deterministically chaotic.


So what is its viewpoint?

I just see it as an attunement for a certain frame of reference.

Everything beyond that is a mystery.

When I read Big5 views of other people it seems like you'll get a karmic score. I have hard time with that because what if you are XYZ (="blind", "paraplegic" etc) or something makes you impulsively challenged. It has to have conditioning elements baked in and here it starts really loose some grip in terms of describing you as a person. So you get scores.. it may help you if you need this sort of help. What if you could push back with some help?