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Thread: Learned Helplessness and Confusing Yourself About Celibacy You Don't Prefer

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    Default Learned Helplessness and Confusing Yourself About Celibacy You Don't Prefer

    Had a passing thought about learned helplessness in general, and my brain brought up the idea of incel culture. 'I wonder if there's an article on that connection....that the psychological process might be part of the pathogenesis of incel ideology indoctrination.

    Yup.

    Another thing: I have done a lot of asking out, and I have experienced several 'no's. I hesitate to say 'rejection' because that word is so dramatized to imply we it's a wrong when someone rejects the offer and that they are rejecting US. It's a weird slide into entitlement to other people as lovers. I get the nervousness when it comes to asking out one's crush.

    I also get that realization that one looks unattractive lately. I personally realize I might not date again. I know how that feels.

    It isn't okay to, or reasonable to, attack others in some selfish, stupid way. I'm curious about the difference between my mindset at my most nervous and lonely and that of someone who is experiencing those same states who then chooses violence. I've been a very violent person. I know generally we're all capable of evil. What's the path of habit, environment, decisions on top of decision, ideology, etc that results in that hostility undertaking?

    The Psychology of The Deadly Incel Movement
    Men belonging to the online ‘Incel’ community are now responsible for two tragic mass killings.
    Avery Hayden
    Avery Hayden
    Jun 5, 2018·5 min read



    "In 2014, Elliot Rodger stabbed three men to death in his apartment before driving to a sorority

    house and shooting 3 female students. On April 23 this year, Alek Minassian drove a rental van

    into pedestrians, killing 10 people, and injuring 14 more.

    Both Rodgers and Minassian were deeply involved in an online community known as “Incels”

    (short for involuntary celibates). Men in this community share a frustration: they are unable

    to have sexual relationships with women.

    Certainly, feeling completely undesirable to women is a source of pain for some men, but how

    could this pain get channeled into a philosophy that justifies mass murder?

    Learned Helplessness

    Image for post

    For members of the Incel community, sex is out of reach. These men believe they are so

    physically unattractive that a woman will never be attracted to them. Incels see themselves

    as sexually handicapped — and therefore unable to receive the female affection they believe

    they are entitled to. On the Incel forums, you’ll see posts that range from extreme self-pity to

    violent misogyny. Here’s a few examples of what their forum posts look like (taken straight from

    an Incel website):

    “When a woman refuses sex, they are taking away your god given right to spread seed. They

    are preventing your offspring from being born. They are preventing life and thus cannot be forgiven.”

    “Being deprived of sex can lead to psychological trauma and feelings of suicide/genocide of others.

    It is the worst thing that can happen to a male.”

    “It’s over, my friend. If you don’t have looks you’re worthless. Women will attempt to “fix” a good

    looking child rapist before even thinking about giving some incel a chance.”

    The above posts are examples of the psychological phenomenon that fuels the Incel community:

    learned helplessness. Psychologist Amy Prezworski defines learned helplessness as, “The sense

    that nothing that you do really has any effect on what is happening in your life.” Incels have lived

    their entire lives without having a single sexual encounter with a woman. After years of failing to

    get the sex they want, these men eventually conclude the problem lies not in their own behavior,

    but in female nature.

    Imagine you were a man in your mid-20s, and you still had not experienced a single sexual

    relationship. Which of these explanations would be more attractive?

    That you should improve your social skills and actively pursue a relationship by risking humiliating

    rejection.

    That it’s not your fault women don’t want you, women are shallow and no matter what you did, you

    would still be a virgin. The appeal of the Incel community is that it allows men to relieve themselves

    of responsibility for their biggest problem. Blaming your lackluster dating life on bad genetics and the

    shallowness of women is much easier than taking responsibility (by admitting your own decisions got

    you where you are).

    Learned helplessness becomes a pernicious self-fulfilling prophecy. If a young man were to ask a few

    women out in college, but he got rejected each time, he might start to think, “Well, every time I ask

    a girl out, I get crushed, maybe I’m just fundamentally unattractive.”

    As soon as this man thinks he’s fundamentally unattractive to women, there’s no reason for him to ask

    another woman on a date, he’s confident that to do so would only lead to more rejection. Of course, now

    that he’s stopped trying to meet women, he’s practically guaranteeing that he will not find a relationship,

    which will only reinforce his belief that he is unappealing.


    When men find the Incel community, they’re greeted with a community that tells men their status as an

    involuntary celibate is not their fault — it’s women and society that are to blame. If you’re already in a spiral

    of learned helplessness, this community has a magnetic appeal, it gives you a space to vent your frustrations

    with like-minded men.


    Because the Incel community bases its philosophy on the presupposition that involuntary celibates are literally

    incapable of attracting women, it is a breeding ground for extreme and hateful thought. These men feel like their

    backs are against the wall: there is nothing they could possibly do to change their situation. So, they focus their

    thoughts on self-victimization and getting revenge against women and society for putting them in such a pitiful situation.


    The Power of Self-Victimization

    The Incel community is an unfortunate example of how failure can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. As soon as soon as

    an involuntary celibate believes they cannot change their situation for the better, that belief makes itself come true.

    These men’s beliefs entitle them to completely stop looking for relationships with the opposite sex. And if you can’t be

    with women, the easiest way to deal with that frustration is to blame them for your struggles in life.


    Members of the Incel community may very well be below average in terms of physical attractiveness. But, instead of

    adopting a victim mindset, they could start working out, improve their fashion sense, develop their confidence, pursue

    a meaningful career, learn how to be funnier, more charismatic, etc. And if they did, they would likely be able to form

    relationships with the opposite sex — it would take a lot of time and effort, but the alternative of wallowing in self-pity

    and venting on online forums is far worse.

    We could scoff at the Incel community for being pathetic, but I see it as a grim reminder

    of the powerful psychological forces that can twist our thinking when we blame the world

    for our problems instead of taking responsibility for them.
    "
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

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    You're right on the money about Self-Victimization leading to incelism. So incelism is an ideology that thrives on brainwashing rather than observed reality. The problem is that there's many young men that experience rejection firsthand (perhaps due to perceived ugliness) and so they become susceptible to believing incel brainwashing, and they support their views with their own experiences of rejection. Definitely there's something to do with personality in there, personality traits like being entitled, being envious of others play an important role in successful brainwashing. Now I'm talking from the point of view of someone who used to browse forums with large amounts of 'incels' (although back then the term wasn't used like nowadays). Mere exposure to that content doesn't necessarily indoctrinate, the problem is the young men who are susceptible: Maybe they have a shitty family or whatever which in turn leads to their worldview becoming twisted and ultimately buying into incel logic. Also, the average age of 'incels' is actually a lot lower than you might think. I'd say it's around or even less than 18.

    So at a glance, it looks like you could solve this by just telling the kids to work out, improve their fashion sense, whatever. But that's not the real problem here. The problem is their low self-esteem and poor self-image which leads to perceived physical shortcomings. Seriously. There's actually some incel forums where they post pictures of themselves and most look ok, some of them look great, some even look like they could be models. The problem is all in their heads.

    As for Elliot Rodger, I read his manifesto and he was basically a messed up ILI with a bad upbringing. Parents that didn't care about him, shitty classmates, etc. Not trying to fling shit here with the personality thing, just making an observation. He lived in a 'rich-people' area where status matters and so he felt like he couldn't compete with other rich and attractive guys. He bought a BMW thinking that would help him attract girls but it didn't work (cause not like a BMW is a lot to other rich people). He worked out and was a frequent poster at a bodybuilding forum so it's not like he was out of shape. You can even look at pictures or videos of him and he's a good-looking guy. So looks or money weren't his problem. The tipping point was one experience he had where he went to some frat party or whatever, he dressed nicely and all that and he was physically abused and humiliated by the frat bros. A few days later he went on the spree as revenge, not really revenge towards women, but more like a revenge against popular guys. (Notice how albeit he mentioned in his manifesto his hatred of women, in the end the 3 people he killed were his flatmates, all men which he considered popular). But it wasn't a sudden thing, and incel forums and whatever didn't even exist back in 2014, so the spree was really the result of all the bad experiences he had during his life.

    Now I'm not trying to defend incels or something like that. Just trying to show that the so-called incels are a product of shitty parenting and shitty society. Every spree is avoidable but people like to throw the blame to the radical ideology boogeyman. The truth about most incels is that they're just naive young men who had bad experiences. The vast majority grow up, change their worldview, and live regular lives when they realize things weren't like what other virgins on the internet told them.

    Sorry to necrobump this btw just had to give my 5 cents on this as someone who interacted with a few (self-proclaimed) incels in real life so I got to study them up close hahah

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Banana King View Post
    You're right on the money about Self-Victimization leading to incelism. So incelism is an ideology that thrives on brainwashing rather than observed reality. The problem is that there's many young men that experience rejection firsthand (perhaps due to perceived ugliness) and so they become susceptible to believing incel brainwashing, and they support their views with their own experiences of rejection. Definitely there's something to do with personality in there, personality traits like being entitled, being envious of others play an important role in successful brainwashing. Now I'm talking from the point of view of someone who used to browse forums with large amounts of 'incels' (although back then the term wasn't used like nowadays). Mere exposure to that content doesn't necessarily indoctrinate, the problem is the young men who are susceptible: Maybe they have a shitty family or whatever which in turn leads to their worldview becoming twisted and ultimately buying into incel logic. Also, the average age of 'incels' is actually a lot lower than you might think. I'd say it's around or even less than 18.

    So at a glance, it looks like you could solve this by just telling the kids to work out, improve their fashion sense, whatever. But that's not the real problem here. The problem is their low self-esteem and poor self-image which leads to perceived physical shortcomings. Seriously. There's actually some incel forums where they post pictures of themselves and most look ok, some of them look great, some even look like they could be models. The problem is all in their heads.

    As for Elliot Rodger, I read his manifesto and he was basically a messed up ILI with a bad upbringing. Parents that didn't care about him, shitty classmates, etc. Not trying to fling shit here with the personality thing, just making an observation. He lived in a 'rich-people' area where status matters and so he felt like he couldn't compete with other rich and attractive guys. He bought a BMW thinking that would help him attract girls but it didn't work (cause not like a BMW is a lot to other rich people). He worked out and was a frequent poster at a bodybuilding forum so it's not like he was out of shape. You can even look at pictures or videos of him and he's a good-looking guy. So looks or money weren't his problem. The tipping point was one experience he had where he went to some frat party or whatever, he dressed nicely and all that and he was physically abused and humiliated by the frat bros. A few days later he went on the spree as revenge, not really revenge towards women, but more like a revenge against popular guys. (Notice how albeit he mentioned in his manifesto his hatred of women, in the end the 3 people he killed were his flatmates, all men which he considered popular). But it wasn't a sudden thing, and incel forums and whatever didn't even exist back in 2014, so the spree was really the result of all the bad experiences he had during his life.

    Now I'm not trying to defend incels or something like that. Just trying to show that the so-called incels are a product of shitty parenting and shitty society. Every spree is avoidable but people like to throw the blame to the radical ideology boogeyman. The truth about most incels is that they're just naive young men who had bad experiences. The vast majority grow up, change their worldview, and live regular lives when they realize things weren't like what other virgins on the internet told them.

    Sorry to necrobump this btw just had to give my 5 cents on this as someone who interacted with a few (self-proclaimed) incels in real life so I got to study them up close hahah
    i love necrobumping, personally. I mean...whytf leave it up and open, you know? temporality needn't end our musings. I'm glad for the convo


    and incel communities, afaict, have existed for a long time...just in different forms.



    and i do point to the ideology because i think our actions spring IN PART from how we see the world and the stories we tell ourselves


    I can believe that while also sharing the view with you that environment and society and mental attacks on the self are part and parcel of it.
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

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    I don't think it's entirely fair to say that incels are always victimizing themselves - society obviously has an objective standards for partners and incels don't fit that standards which does actually make them natural victims, but if you don't try to improve your own personal life despite not genetically being a superior type then that is off-putting and not very attractive. I don't really call them incels as much as i call them 'omega males' - short pudgy and genetically unattractive guys with weird anti-social interests that hurt their chances for having sex women and playing too many video games whereas most women are attracted to the worldly 6'4" Chad with an 8-9 inch penis that that goes to bars and is arrogant and is into realistic pursuits rather than that fantasy crap.

    Incels should lower their standards and try to date Hilda's instead of Stacy's - - but the thing is even Hildas want Chads. Chad can have Hilda or Stacy. Stacy can have Chad, Hilda can have Chad. Incel Igor can have... his Star Wars action figures set. If Incel Igor got a minimum wage job and fixed some negative thought patterns about himself & learned some better social skills ((not talking about Star Wars when people aren't interested)) he could potentinally have a Hilda but he's still in for an uphill climb.

    You know, society used to have compassion for guys like these instead of being like 'Ew go away!' Even though we all knew Igor probably wasn't going to get laid. But feminists ((usually angry and bitter Hildas though...)) get their karma when they often date Chads and then it doesn't work - - when their fairytale fantasy of making bad boy Chad into a 'good famliy man person' doesn't work and they are victims themselves and play victim. Stacy otoh ... lol. Stacy is both cute and infuriating because a Stacy in society gets everything she wants as American society is actually misandrist and is against men not women. Everything America does is for the Stacy Karen THOT. I mean- you can't blame people too much for being pissed at people like that as people who are too perfect are boring anyway. The thing is though- Stacies are actually nice, they are super nice to me even though it's not about sex with us- so they make me feel guilty even for kinda making fun of them, it's usually these bitter and fat and ugly Hildas that have problems with males. But if a Stacy makes bad life choices, they can devolve into a Hilda. A Chad rarely devolves like that in society- and maybe it does relate to some anti-woman things in society, but society as a whole is going to treat males as expendable pieces of shit and you know this.

    I'm a Beta Male. Beta in socionics and in natural male selection order. An Omega incel has a crush on me and I think it's cute but I'm just not into him - however if he made some changes to his apperance and lifestyle then I would possibly date him- since as an IEI I'm naturally sensitive to other people's vulnerabilities anyway. He's very kind and he would treat me like gold. And I really don't want an alpha guy the same as most str8 women do....

    I think objectively speaking, we're all sick and tired of the victim racket in society from all groups of people. Although complaining about it too much is just playing victim yourself about somebody else playing victim- but we really should all stop the victim racket. Gays playing victim, feminists playing victim, women playing victim, races playing victim, blue collar str8 men playing victim about Trump not winning, it gets old. It starts with me though I guess- but I wish everybody the world entire would just fuck off with the victim racket already. Don't make it about a feminist/incel thing... just teach others to stop playing victim. As an LIE you probably would be good at that.

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    btw I really wish Te types would stop pretending the Ti Male Hierarchy system doesn't exist because it does fucking exist and you know it. Stop putting your head in the sand, Te valuers. I mean to be fair it's probably nowhere near as rigid as I make it out to be but if you want to prove me wrong then use Se real world data please as I won't trust biased Te sources.

    I mean u basically have 5 types of males:

    Chad: Your classic super hunky Alpha males. Alpha positive Chads are serious and business minded, whereas Alpha negative Chads are party fiends and have a more fun sense of humor. Both are confident/arrogant and good looking and popular with people & especially of mainstream Karen society. Alpha Positive is like that Gary Stu from the 50 shades of Grey Novel and Alpha Negative is like your common run-of-the-mill mainstream male porn star or generic 'hunky bad boy.'

    Barry: Beta Barries are often nice and diplomatic with others, like McDonald's Middle Managers. Beta Positives are often like those cute frat boys with a lot of empathy that just wanna learn stuff cuz they don't have the physical stamina that Alpha Negatives do. Barries can easily move up in the world career-wise "Beta Bucks", but nowhere near as fast and good as Alpha Positives. They understand psychology well & are good at reading other people but lack the genetic fitness & superiority to Chads even though they often are still cute/handsome. Beta Negatives are more angry and pissy at the world then Beta Positives. I'm a Beta Negative, like Invisible Jim said. LOLOLOL.

    Sam: I'll call Gamma Males Sams like my dad, cuz my dad was named Sam and I think he was a Gamma male... Sams are mysterious, enigmatic and actually in some ways more 'alpha' then Beta Barry. But Sams are lower tier than Barry I think cuz Sams often have a genetic disease that makes them weak/fragile and their physical presence often isn't that good. Sams can be tall and good looking though- but they are usually more shy and gentle than Betas so they don't get a lot of attention unless you personally enjoy a Sam in a Fi way. They often are very 'artistic.' They are right in the middle of the system and are the heart of it all. So more than other type they can also seem like the other type categories as well. (like enneagram 9s) Gamma Positives are often like 'Alpha Male Positive-lite' and Gamma Negative Males are more socially awkward and gangly.

    Dan: DAAAAANNN like Roseanne Barr calling out to Dan, these males are really goofable and loveable and just kind of dolt-ishly simplistic. Society wouldn't exist without Dans as they are the backbone doing all the real work. You always want to yell at them to fix your car or take out the trash. Dan Positives are just better looking than Dan Negatives- but both are the guy with a blue button down shirt and a fat gut sticking out and just kind of naturally obeys everything everybody says to do. The above three types- they are a lot more independent and rebellious than Dan is. Dan just wants to fit in and be normal and take out the trash for you and be boring. This is... kind of really endearing in a way but it's like jeesh, can't they form any opinions themselves other than "I agree with that. Want me to take out the trash?"

    Jared: These omega males have interests that are too socially unacceptable for mainstream society to ever accept. Let's just call them Jareds based off of Jared Fogle from Subway. Their sexual interests are too cringe-worthy and bad, and they lack empathy for others but always whine about nobody having empathy for them when they are caught doing something stupid. Jared Positive... let's say Jared Positives still have some redeeming qualities even though they endlessly rant about what my little pony character they would be most compatible with whereas Jared Negatives are usually the people on Death Row for multiple sexual abuse violations regarding children.

    So are you a Chad, a Barry, a Sam, a Dan or a Jared? lolololololol.
    Last edited by BandD; 02-23-2021 at 03:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    I don't think it's entirely fair to say that incels are always victimizing themselves - society obviously has an objective standards for partners and incels don't fit that standards which does actually make them natural victims, but if you don't try to improve your own personal life despite not genetically being a superior type then that is off-putting and not very attractive. I don't really call them incels as much as i call them 'omega males' - short pudgy and genetically unattractive guys with weird anti-social interests that hurt their chances for having sex women and playing too many video games whereas most women are attracted to the worldly 6'4" Chad with an 8-9 inch penis that that goes to bars and is arrogant and is into realistic pursuits rather than that fantasy crap.

    Incels should lower their standards and try to date Hilda's instead of Stacy's - - but the thing is even Hildas want Chads. Chad can have Hilda or Stacy. Stacy can have Chad, Hilda can have Chad. Incel Igor can have... his Star Wars action figures set. If Incel Igor got a minimum wage job and fixed some negative thought patterns about himself & learned some better social skills ((not talking about Star Wars when people aren't interested)) he could potentinally have a Hilda but he's still in for an uphill climb.

    You know, society used to have compassion for guys like these instead of being like 'Ew go away!' Even though we all knew Igor probably wasn't going to get laid. But feminists ((usually angry and bitter Hildas though...)) get their karma when they often date Chads and then it doesn't work - - when their fairytale fantasy of making bad boy Chad into a 'good famliy man person' doesn't work and they are victims themselves and play victim. Stacy otoh ... lol. Stacy is both cute and infuriating because a Stacy in society gets everything she wants as American society is actually misandrist and is against men not women. Everything America does is for the Stacy Karen THOT. I mean- you can't blame people too much for being pissed at people like that as people who are too perfect are boring anyway. The thing is though- Stacies are actually nice, they are super nice to me even though it's not about sex with us- so they make me feel guilty even for kinda making fun of them, it's usually these bitter and fat and ugly Hildas that have problems with males. But if a Stacy makes bad life choices, they can devolve into a Hilda. A Chad rarely devolves like that in society- and maybe it does relate to some anti-woman things in society, but society as a whole is going to treat males as expendable pieces of shit and you know this.

    I'm a Beta Male. Beta in socionics and in natural male selection order. An Omega incel has a crush on me and I think it's cute but I'm just not into him - however if he made some changes to his apperance and lifestyle then I would possibly date him- since as an IEI I'm naturally sensitive to other people's vulnerabilities anyway. He's very kind and he would treat me like gold. And I really don't want an alpha guy the same as most str8 women do....

    I think objectively speaking, we're all sick and tired of the victim racket in society from all groups of people. Although complaining about it too much is just playing victim yourself about somebody else playing victim- but we really should all stop the victim racket. Gays playing victim, feminists playing victim, women playing victim, races playing victim, blue collar str8 men playing victim about Trump not winning, it gets old. It starts with me though I guess- but I wish everybody the world entire would just fuck off with the victim racket already. Don't make it about a feminist/incel thing... just teach others to stop playing victim. As an LIE you probably would be good at that.
    you're again speaking for all women as though they are a monolith and as though you understand them better than they do themselves.

    it's abusive.
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

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    It's not abusive, I'm just stating facts. Stop playing the victim. You are doing the exact same thing you criticize incels for doing. Nobody said women are a 'monolith' but there is going to be general patterns and trends in the type of males women date. To pretend otherwise is denying reality.

    I think you're just upset because I'm calling you out for your own sexual preferences and you get upset because I see thru u trying to play moral god with others because when somebody is being turned on by a Chad they often can't play moral nurse to the world and like a Chad at the same time.

    I don't mean to make you feel bad about your own preferences though. But I'm not abusing "women" in their entireity.

    I wish you'd stop playing moral police with incels (and everybody else) like 'you just need confidence' because it's not up to you to decide that in others. It just sounds like you're pissed at them for not being alpha males like u want them to be. They don't need your advice unless they ask you.

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    Btw you are so Delta it hurts. So many people on the forum think ur a Delta I wish you would at first just at least admit this.

    We have too many bitchy fights with each other for you to be some gamma- if you were supervising me I'd just nod my head and calmly move on but this is something more than that.

    And we'd at least have shared Se/Ni but I don't see that at all from you. I see nothing but Delta morality and Ne, Si, Te & Fi. And many ppl think the same thing and see the same thing.

    The rate this is going- I think LSE for you is a great typing lol.

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    Ever since I moved into my new apartment, ive been like this place is really big I'm going to lose track of my stuff constantly. I've lost track of my glasses, remotes, phone, etc. multiple times already and ive only been here 2 full days. Then I realized I was creating the subconscious expectation and therefore excuse that I'd lose stuff. After I realized that I decided to stop being a whiny victim and allow my brain to start building unconscious tactics and strategies so that I'd stop losing shit, because it's not like I'm going to stop using my glasses, phone, etc. I just have to use the tools evolution gave me and monitor any defeatist thoughts I have until I develop automatic unconscious coping mechanisms for not losing shit.

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    The best tool evolution ever gave us is Duct Tape.

    Stick that remote to the table.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    It's not abusive, I'm just stating facts. Stop playing the victim. You are doing the exact same thing you criticize incels for doing. Nobody said women are a 'monolith' but there is going to be general patterns and trends in the type of males women date. To pretend otherwise is denying reality.

    I think you're just upset because I'm calling you out for your own sexual preferences and you get upset because I see thru u trying to play moral god with others because when somebody is being turned on by a Chad they often can't play moral nurse to the world and like a Chad at the same time.

    I don't mean to make you feel bad about your own preferences though. But I'm not abusing "women" in their entireity.

    I wish you'd stop playing moral police with incels (and everybody else) like 'you just need confidence' because it's not up to you to decide that in others. It just sounds like you're pissed at them for not being alpha males like u want them to be. They don't need your advice unless they ask you.
    AGAIN, this is abusive.
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Btw you are so Delta it hurts. So many people on the forum think ur a Delta I wish you would at first just at least admit this.

    We have too many bitchy fights with each other for you to be some gamma- if you were supervising me I'd just nod my head and calmly move on but this is something more than that.

    And we'd at least have shared Se/Ni but I don't see that at all from you. I see nothing but Delta morality and Ne, Si, Te & Fi. And many ppl think the same thing and see the same thing.

    The rate this is going- I think LSE for you is a great typing lol.
    You were deeply convinced I was IEE days ago. Now you've moved on to 'she must be LSE'.

    I can't help you with that. lol
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Btw you are so Delta it hurts. So many people on the forum think ur a Delta I wish you would at first just at least admit this.

    We have too many bitchy fights with each other for you to be some gamma- if you were supervising me I'd just nod my head and calmly move on but this is something more than that.
    ps, I feel dualized af around nanashi, and I'm ESI, so...

    And i wanted to add a word about the supervision dynamic. Ive learned a LOT about my vulnerable function, Ne, from my supervisors (IEEs). as i've gotten older and more comfortable in who i am, i don't necessarily feel I need their input as much, but I still really value it (even when I disagree). Just saying, I don't think you can conclude that nanashi is not your supervisor because if she were youd "just not [your] head and calmly move on". nanashi is versatile, that's clear, but she can still fit a sociotype. she knows herself QUITE well too, afaict (hey! here i am using that acronym for the first time). i have massive respect for her self-knowledge, and again, as a gamma type myself, i find relating to her to be really smooth, exciting, inspiring and enriching -- and i DON'T feel challenged or a bit uncomfortable or insecure in the way I can around supervisors. I very much think that nanashi is Fi-seeking, Ni-creative, not Fi-creative, Ni ignoring.

    #nanashifanclub

    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    And we'd at least have shared Se/Ni but I don't see that at all from you. I see nothing but Delta morality and Ne, Si, Te & Fi. And many ppl think the same thing and see the same thing.

    The rate this is going- I think LSE for you is a great typing lol.
    AND, as she has said repeatedly, she was raised by a Delta NF in extreme living conditions so is steeped in what you call Delta morality in that way. It doesnt invalidate her as LIE.


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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    you're again speaking for all women as though they are a monolith and as though you understand them better than they do themselves.

    it's abusive.
    I don't understand this mindset. How is what he said abusive? I'm not being flippant here, I honestly don't get why anyone would take this personally and feel abused. It's a viewpoint, you don't have to agree with it, or feel attacked by it. And he never said that all women are whatever Yeah, I don't get it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    I don't understand this mindset. How is what he said abusive? I'm not being flippant here, I honestly don't get why anyone would take this personally and feel abused. It's a viewpoint, you don't have to agree with it, or feel attacked by it. And he never said that all women are whatever Yeah, I don't get it.
    you've missed it, squark. he has repeatedly said all women crave a domineering and physically assertive Chad of a man and are inherently incapable of attractions to the other aspects of a human being.

    He's also repeatedly badmouthed women.

    He also speaks FOR women, describing what they want and how they think, and he's said it's how he is as a gay man and painted all women that way, in direct opposition to posts where a woman shares what she does see as interesting and what she thinks.
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

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    Hmm. Thanks @nanashi. Well I guess I owe @BandD an apology then. I told him that when he says this kind of stuff that nobody is bothered by it because it's not personal. You've shown that I was wrong in thinking that. I assumed too much since it doesn't bother me. I know he says women want some muscular Chad etc all the time, but I've never read "all women" into those comments. It's just general stereotype kind of stuff. Like when someone says women are bad drivers, or white people can't dance, or whatever. I don't think you can erase the stereotypes anyone has formed in their mind, you can just be an exception to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    Hmm. Thanks @nanashi. Well I guess I owe @BandD an apology then. I told him that when he says this kind of stuff that nobody is bothered by it because it's not personal. You've shown that I was wrong in thinking that. I assumed too much since it doesn't bother me. I know he says women want some muscular Chad etc all the time, but I've never read "all women" into those comments. It's just general stereotype kind of stuff. Like when someone says women are bad drivers, or white people can't dance, or whatever. I don't think you can erase the stereotypes anyone has formed in their mind, you can just be an exception to them.
    yeah, you can confront people about the stereotypes. that's fine to do. It's also backed by research as useful and important to not just go along with stereotypes being uttered. You'd think stereotyping wouldn't affect ppl who understand it's just stereotyping..but the research shows the opposite. Sadly, it constantly affects people and decreases their interest in actions they wanted to do before the stereotyping.
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    I think modern society paints a faulty picture into people's minds and that is: every person should have a partner, get married, make 1.99 children (yes, male circumcision is still an issue) and own 1.2 cars (come on utilization must somewhere around that). I don't think we have enough evidence for that in the animal kingdom.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    yeah, you can confront people about the stereotypes. that's fine to do. It's also backed by research as useful and important to not just go along with stereotypes being uttered. You'd think stereotyping wouldn't affect ppl who understand it's just stereotyping..but the research shows the opposite. Sadly, it constantly affects people and decreases their interest in actions they wanted to do before the stereotyping.
    Maybe I'm just weird, but if I didn't fit a stereotype I've never felt like I was being included in the group. As in, it never felt directed AT me. And it didn't stop me from doing anything. I think some people internalize those stereotypes a lot more than I ever have. I'm not really sure what causes that internalization . . . but to get all socionics about it, a friend of mine suggested that Fi is tied to identity, and that's an interesting concept to consider. As in the need to identify with something in particular, with a kind of attachment to that identity. So, anything said about that identity is an attack on the self. I don't have that. I get offended by stuff sure, and angry, and whatever, but for different reasons, usually by things I consider character attacks I guess?? I don't know if feminism and identity politics and all of that actually are tied to Fi, but it's something that some people are far more affected by than others for whatever reason. I just can't find anything to be bothered by in it, because it doesn't really seem to have anything to do with me if that makes any sense? He's talking about some women, he's not talking about me. And yes, I'm a woman, but that doesn't mean anything because I'm not one of the ones he's talking about.

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    I think gay guys tend to want the muscular 'Chad'. Gay men are often very tactile like that. I think the 'Chad' stereotype for str8 women is a bit different. But it tends to be about height, social dominance, confidence/arrogance, certain large things...

    And yeah @squark I'm clearly hurting nanashi's feelings because it's like I'm indirectly making fun of her for her own preferences. But I really don't mean to do that because I'm not really thinking of her much at all when I go on my rants...

    I'm well aware of the exception of stereotypes/rules for the fact of my own existence. I mean though... my own LII dad was very handsome, he looked like a movie star- but he was so shy awkward/dorky/nice & nerdy and he didn't really have a lot of physical strength or confidence. My ESE mom with her 4D Se was much more like that way...however my mom agrees with me because before she met my dad she was into assholes lol. So she agrees with me and says 'All women want assholes.' I think really even nice guys are assholes deep down inside though they just have to tap into it. I think for the large part being 'nice' can be a huge illusion and a guy will probably get more dates if he taps into his healthy assholeism... although my dad was all those things nice/shy/nerdy - my mom flat out told me that she would not go out with him if she was the one that had to ask him on a date.

    I think the thing about pc mainstream feminism is it gets destroyed because it's easily revealed that they want too much superiority/narc supply and not 'equality' and that the Chad thing is just further proof of their true motivations. I mean I'm not picking on or starting fights with women- but it's just objectively true that we do protect and give women what they want more then men (but for good reason) already naturally. Even as a gay guy I'm expected to die for women for the greater good for society and in a natural tragedy I'd be the one expendable and women wouldn't be. As Karen Straughan said, in exchange for that deal- men have gotten certain titles and priveleges in society and more money all to help with that cause. Yes, men make more money but it's usually to help support our female family members that we care about. In feminism, you give women the equal privilege but also protect her from the negative 'dark half' of that same privilege.

    So it really does often become some thing people make fun of where some stereotypical fat angry dyke just wants to eat and kill all men like a campy cartoon character.

    Men are also punished a lot more by society if we do something immoral or wrong compared to women. We have longer/harsher prison sentences- but that's probably balanced by the fact that men are objectively more dangerous in a physical way and usually it's just some safeguard Ne 'what if' case that makes people afraid on a primal level. I don't think "equality" works the way feminists think would really work.

    Ugh I still consider myself liberal but I can't help but agree with some stuff conservatives say, especially about this issue. But certain right-wing people have made excellent points but went too much on the side of being a bully and I don't want to make that same mistake as I don't think that's productive or helpful either. So I'm sorry too if my Fe gets out of hand.. but we all know it probably won't be the last time lolol.
    Last edited by BandD; 02-24-2021 at 01:59 PM.

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    Also I wanted to say that "confidence" is often just a genetic fixed Ti thing and yelling at somebody to 'just be confident!' is just silly and doesn't work. Just because *you* want them to be more confident...

    It would be like yelling at somebody with brown eyes and telling them they should have blue eyes already. Or even 'Just be straight!' Or in my case - 'Just be gay!' And true the person could just purchase blue contacts and wear them but anybody who has ever had contacts can tell you that they fall out sometimes and it can be revealed with enough insight that the person isn't wearing them anymore anyway. Not a perfect example but you get it.

    People can try and get over things & some and face fears but some males are just naturally more fearless than others. Yes, the genetically fearless males have an unfair advantage but no need to get upset about that or jealous because that's life. When has life ever been fair or equal? It clearly never has been. It just doesn't work that way. The incel community calls this 'coping' because they REALLY REALLY want to get laid... sex can be great but it's often overrated really.

    I don't feel like screaming at an incel/omega male to 'be confident!' To be honest I'd rather just chill with them and play Magic: The Gathering with them or whatever and just ... let things be.

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    Did Elliot Rodger seem autistic to anyone else?

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    adsvasghjfhsafhaweirulqwhrfuaWHFSAJKSFD

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    adsvasghjfhsafhaweirulqwhrfuaWHFSAJKSFD
    Claude Shannon thought that the entropy, or information content, of a word is, on average, one bit. But that’s an average.

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    Is your celibacy really involuntary if you could just get a hooker. Or go on tinder and find a hookup. Or fuck a pile of trash. Whatever, same diff

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    Is your celibacy really involuntary if you could just get a hooker. Or go on tinder and find a hookup. Or fuck a pile of trash. Whatever, same diff
    Good question. It’s probably involuntary if your only option is fucking a pile of trash, but if your options include real live humans and you’re not having sex, it’s probably voluntary.

    *EDIT*
    I’m glad to see that you’re posting again, @ashlesha. It raises the EQ of the place significantly.

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    Cool it with the anti-Grenitic remarks bucko! Grendel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    Did Elliot Rodger seem autistic to anyone else?
    The whole core to this issue beneath the smoke and mirrors is some women are freaking out on realization that autists exist when one of them flew off the handle, and now they're assuming they're all that way, lol.

    If you're dealt a cruddy hand in this world, then it's your responsibility to live sustainably in accordance with the lot you drew, and it's others' responsibility to bear their own burdens and leave yours the fuck alone. NOT aspire to be something you're not. When you do that, you BECOME a false reality, and this is the last thing this world needs, it is literally sin. If the barrier to getting the thing you want is absolutely impermeable, then yes, you need to abandon that desire so you don't go ballistic.

    Killers emerge when Trash delude themselves into thinking they're Hot Shit, then get disappointed when they're not treated like Hot Shit, rather than knowing their fucking place in this world. You wanna know what created Elliot? That's what. No, there was nothing he could've possibly done to reach the object of his desire, it was untenable for his BRAIN and we don't have the tools to fix that shit. What he HAD the option to fix was his soul, had he searched it - while it won't give you power over reality, it'll give you power over oneself.

    Telling deficient people they can have it all in the same ways ordinary people can, if they just "try hard enough," is to instill them with a poison worse than any vice: Hope. Because hope does nothing but stretch out pointless suffering by prolonging the battles ripest for surrender; robs us of our death-smile.

    Tell someone their fate, and they will spend their whole life coming to terms with that final destination, no matter how lowly or unpleasant that fate may seem at first. But tell them their fate is something it is most certainly not, or that it COULD be different than it will be, then they will waste the rest of their days agonizing over something they cannot change.
    Last edited by Grendel; 02-25-2021 at 04:44 PM.

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    Learned helplessness probably does exist but it's mostly a mental issue -- which means that the things that it encompasses are mental, and not physical. It's true that confidence makes a big difference, and learning to be confident and a go-getter will definitely help with finding a relationship and taking chances you otherwise would let slip. But dealing with issues like mental health and confidence only goes so far, and denying that physicality plays an important role in attraction and sexuality is disingenuous and probably comes from a place of privilege.

    The thing is, you can have two really unattractive guys: one who's bitter and an incel, and one who has accepted that he's not going to get laid a lot, or at all, and is focusing his attention on other things that make him happy. An obviously healthier mentality to have, in the long run, is the second one. But that doesn't change the fact that neither of them are going to get laid (much or at all) if they are deeply unattractive in aspects they cannot change.

    I disagree when people make sweeping statements about women, for example, and think to myself -- well, I'm not like that. But I used to see incels as a monolith too. It's not a nice thing to do, nor a nuanced way to think about things. A problem exists in society if so many men are relating to the incel mindset, and saying it's just their mentality is basically doing the same thing you're accusing every individual incel for -- not taking responsibility.

    We are doing no one a favor by denying that some people have been dealt a very shit hand. Women are affected by this too -- you may have heard of 'pretty privilege'. Only after the problems in society that lead to this phenomenon are acknowledged can we try to push for more personal confidence and less self victimisation. Whatever those problems are, and I'm actually inclined to agree with Grendel. I am all for hope, but only as much as you can handle being let down, lmfao.
    Last edited by voider; 02-25-2021 at 09:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    Did Elliot Rodger seem autistic to anyone else?
    ¬‿¬..




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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    The whole core to this issue beneath the smoke and mirrors is some women are freaking out on realization that autists exist when one of them flew off the handle, and now they're assuming they're all that way, lol.

    If you're dealt a cruddy hand in this world, then it's your responsibility to live sustainably in accordance with the lot you drew, and it's others' responsibility to bear their own burdens and leave yours the fuck alone. NOT aspire to be something you're not. When you do that, you BECOME a false reality, and this is the last thing this world needs, it is literally sin. If the barrier to getting the thing you want is absolutely impermeable, then yes, you need to abandon that desire so you don't go ballistic.

    Killers emerge when Trash delude themselves into thinking they're Hot Shit, then get disappointed when they're not treated like Hot Shit, rather than knowing their fucking place in this world. You wanna know what created Elliot? That's what. No, there was nothing he could've possibly done to reach the object of his desire, it was untenable for his BRAIN and we don't have the tools to fix that shit. What he HAD the option to fix was his soul, had he searched it - while it won't give you power over reality, it'll give you power over oneself.

    Telling deficient people they can have it all in the same ways ordinary people can, if they just "try hard enough," is to instill them with a poison worse than any vice: Hope. Because hope does nothing but stretch out pointless suffering by prolonging the battles ripest for surrender; robs us of our death-smile.

    Tell someone their fate, and they will spend their whole life coming to terms with that final destination, no matter how lowly or unpleasant that fate may seem at first. But tell them their fate is something it is most certainly not, or that it COULD be different than it will be, then they will waste the rest of their days agonizing over something they cannot change.
    Maybe; not everyone can look like a 10. But, given enough effort, isn't it possible for almost anyone to look like a 6? 6 isn't too bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    Maybe; not everyone can look like a 10. But, given enough effort, isn't it possible for almost anyone to look like a 6? 6 isn't too bad.
    Yeah, anyone can look like a 6. Except these guys: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/480087...e-on-the-dole/

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    Cool it with the anti-Grenitic remarks bucko! Grendel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    Maybe; not everyone can look like a 10. But, given enough effort, isn't it possible for almost anyone to look like a 6? 6 isn't too bad.
    Doesn't matter, looks are completely irrelevant. Most of the important things are mental, and most mental things are innate, so you'll either get it easily, or will never get it at all.

    What's important is to be decisive. If you're clearly not cut out for it, you shouldn't try. Because if you fight too long over something, you will come to believe you deserve it. But no one is going to give it to you. You will be disappointed. You will become evil.

    Don't be evil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    Doesn't matter, looks are completely irrelevant. Most of the important things are mental, and most mental things are innate, so you'll either get it easily, or will never get it at all.

    What's important is to be decisive. If you're clearly not cut out for it, you shouldn't try. Because if you fight too long over something, you will come to believe you deserve it. But no one is going to give it to you. You will be disappointed. You will become evil.

    Don't be evil.
    That sounds like depression talking.

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    Let's just go the sex/companion-bot route.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    That sounds like depression talking.
    Not only are some people unable to successfully reproduce, but we'd all be better off if they didn't try, including they themselves. I do not plan on my genes surviving another generation. My hereditary sin dies with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    Not only are some people unable to successfully reproduce, but we'd all be better off if they didn't try, including they themselves. I do not plan on my genes surviving another generation. My hereditary sin dies with me.
    I've got a scheduled vasectomy. Finally I will be able to fully enjoy creampieing without the lingering fear of being held hostage with my own dna for ransom money. Tbh I'd only ever consider having kids if I had unlimited resources (money and time) and a stay at home mom to care for the child (to protect my autonomy and the give the child the best possible environment).

    Also, the size of kindergarten groups as well as school classes and the attention divided per number of children in these groups is the leading cause in humans to develop faulty attachment patterns later on. Fuck a covid, this is the real pandemic. This information is being actively suppressed in academia too. Go figure.
    "The society that separates it's scholars from it's warriors will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting by fools." ―Thucydides

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    Not only are some people unable to successfully reproduce, but we'd all be better off if they didn't try, including they themselves. I do not plan on my genes surviving another generation. My hereditary sin dies with me.
    What's your hereditary sin?

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    Cool it with the anti-Grenitic remarks bucko! Grendel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    What's your hereditary sin?
    I'm about as spergie as Elliot was. When I look at him, I see what I could've become. I even had a dream once where I tried to be the guy's friend to prevent him from going murderous, but failed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    I'm about as spergie as Elliot was. When I look at him, I see what I could've become. I even had a dream once where I tried to be the guy's friend to prevent him from going murderous, but failed.
    Spergie how? You seem somewhat young so cringe is normal, and dreams like that I'd guess are fairly normal for intuitive weirdos who spend too much time alone.

    I say this because I'm the same way, or was. For what it's worth, I used to have a lot of dreams and fantasies like that, imagining scenarios where I'd just talk to people as you described, which seem embarrassing now, and were embarrassing at the time. A few people, my parents included, did think I was possibly autistic, but people I've talked to now say I don't seem that way...make of that whatever you like. I'm definitely still weird, in that if I talked about many of the things I dream and think about I don't think people would like to talk to me, and I suspect I think fairly differently than most people, but I can at least blend in somewhat well now. Judging from my own experience, I guess that if you're still living with your parents, you'll change significantly when you stop. Also, if that's the case, I'd not worry too much about what you're currently like and extrapolating that to the future, but just try to focus on getting out and managing your current situation.
    Last edited by FreelancePoliceman; 02-26-2021 at 12:42 AM.

  40. #40
    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    any discussion of somebody's cringe level based on their own internal dramas and fantasies doesn't even come close to mine. imaginary scenarios that you know are imaginary is obviously not crazy or "spergy" or whatever, or else i have a shitload of quarantine issues to speak for and honestly? the fantasy/reality spectrum is something i'm actively expending effort to maintain because that's rubbing loose. so gtfo lol. spergy can be kinda cute, btw? 100% but i don't think the word is being used seriously lol

    anyway the transition from real human connection into okcupid algorithms and families into cute, optional accessories to potentially supplement dating is kind of a big fucking deal for humanity lolz

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