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Thread: ESI and babies

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Default ESI and babies

    There’s something magical about how esi hold babies that calm them down and make them feel safe.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    The ESIs I know don't want to have children because it is too much responsibility which they are afraid of not being able to handle perfectly.
    Such a shame

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    The ESIs I know don't want to have children because it is too much responsibility which they are afraid of not being able to handle perfectly.
    Such a shame
    What? How the world changes!!!
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    What? How the world changes!!!
    when the ESI accepts a more modern outlook on life, they usually try to invest in themselves, rather than creating huge responsibilities which would add to their stress

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    I have this rare male ability to put babies to sleep when they are in my arms. Women seem amazed, but I'm usually so calm that they babies can relax from their mom's anxiety.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    The ESIs I know don't want to have children because it is too much responsibility which they are afraid of not being able to handle perfectly.
    Such a shame
    When I was young, I didn’t want to have kids. I was adamant about it. I wanted to focus on my art and music and other pursuits. I had excuses like the good old “the world is too messed up” excuse. But eventually the realization that I had one chance to have children really sunk in (around 29 or so).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    There’s something magical about how esi hold babies that calm them down and make them feel safe.
    This is true of us with other baby animals, too! Actually my LSI little brother is similar with (his own) babies and pets and he’s kind of a cat whisperer. Creative Se?

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    So last night we had a family bash for my LSE cousin’s 50 th birthday. I am seated next to my mother and ESI aunt. My aunt looks at my child and says “it’s cold in here, too cold for the baby, where are her clothes, is this how you take care of a baby? She’s going to get sick” all of this rant in one long and punishing sentence. It makes me choke the way she’ expresses her concern and I realize I have been raised in primarily Gamma Quadra. I tell her that I brought pants and a jacket for her and they are in her bag. She says to me “what good is it if it’s in a bag!” She’s pressuring me to go grab them and throw them on my child pronto. Her daughter who is also ESI comes to hold her once I have bundled the baby like an Eskimo in Los Angeles and now she starts with me about the baby “she’s been chewing at my finger, her fingers, back of the chair (joke), when are you going to feed the baby!” Gamma is all about “pay attention to your babies hahah. Not joking

    These women are all about hurry up and move fast. Apparently I’m too slow in my responses for them
    .
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Seed my wickedness The Reality Denialist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmers View Post
    I have this rare male ability to put babies to sleep when they are in my arms. Women seem amazed, but I'm usually so calm that they babies can relax from their mom's anxiety.
    Few years back in the gym class (archery) one guy was screaming at me: be calm. Yeah, that helps and I have a piercing weapon on my hands, wink wink.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrsTortilla View Post
    When I was young, I didn’t want to have kids. I was adamant about it. I wanted to focus on my art and music and other pursuits. I had excuses like the good old “the world is too messed up” excuse. But eventually the realization that I had one chance to have children really sunk in (around 29 or so).
    How did you come to realize that you had only once chance of having children? Did it occur due to a physically critical period or a philosophical shift of views?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrsTortilla View Post
    This is true of us with other baby animals, too! Actually my LSI little brother is similar with (his own) babies and pets and he’s kind of a cat whisperer. Creative Se?
    The LSI I know hates most of the animals, and believes one can only learn rules of life from them, doesn't want them anywhere near him otherwise

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    The LSI I know hates most of the animals, and believes one can only learn rules of life from them, doesn't want them anywhere near him otherwise
    Was he raised surrounded by pets, or no? I think this can make a difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    How did you come to realize that you had only once chance of having children? Did it occur due to a physically critical period or a philosophical shift of views?
    Curious minds want to know. I know a couple ESI's I'd like to have children with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    How did you come to realize that you had only once chance of having children? Did it occur due to a physically critical period or a philosophical shift of views?
    The religion I was raised in strongly discouraged having kids in favor of throwing oneself into religious service, unless you absolutely felt you had to have children. A lot of people I grew up with never ended up having kids as a result. After I left the religious organization at age 20 I no longer believed the dogma but I think I still carried through a disdain for having children (though I expressed all kinds of other reasons for why not to have kids if asked).

    When I first fell in love for real around age 24, my attitude about children began to slightly change, because I thought it would be amazing to share such an experience with my partner... but I still wasn't sure. By the time I found the man who would be my husband a few years later, and we got married, I was 30 and I had been feeling that clock ticking for a little while. I just naturally came to that realization I wasn't getting any younger and my options were closing off by the day. I felt the pressure of time. I also noticed that a lot of older 30 somethings around me who had not had kids still seemed to behave like they were in their 20's, a lot of women approaching 40 who never had children were now scrambling to have them, and that couples who were much older but had never had kids overall seemed really eccentric and not in a way I liked. I thought about how, without children, once you get old you'll be alone with no family surrounding you, and have no one to pass things on to. Very sad, really. I was never 100% sure about kids, but took the plunge anyway. The old adage that it is "never the right time" is probably true.

    Of course once I had my first baby I realized the obvious: the main purpose of life is to procreate, and there is no greater joy than the love you have for your child. If you haven't yet had kids it's easy to be really negative about it, to scoff at the idea, to discount its benefits. But you don't really grow up until you have kids, in my opinion, and you miss out on probably the best kind of love that is possible.

    I might offend some people here by saying some of this, so if I have, it wasn't my intention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Curious minds want to know. I know a couple ESI's I'd like to have children with.
    LOL @Adam Strange! You need to PM me photos of your prospective ESI's so I can rule out ISTj's for you. ;-> I think you are quite drawn to LSI's as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Curious minds want to know. I know a couple ESI's I'd like to have children with.
    I don't think I'll ever have children but then again nothing is impossible
    For men it's easier, you can even keep the possibility in mind after 50 or so, women have to make that decision earlier

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    I don't think I'll ever have children but then again nothing is impossible
    For men it's easier, you can even keep the possibility in mind after 50 or so, women have to make that decision earlier
    Some men, like one of my grandfathers, have kids into their 90's. Women have to deal with quite a lot of difficult decisions... Nature is a cruel master.

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    ESIs do seem excellent with infants and children that need succour. Though they remain loyal, they don't seem as adept with headstrong children that are determined to do things an alternate way. Many ESIs seem to metaphorically distance or isolate themselves when their children start challenging them......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    ESIs do seem excellent with infants and children that need succour. Though they remain loyal, they don't seem as adept with headstrong children that are determined to do things an alternate way. Many ESIs seem to metaphorically distance or isolate themselves when their children start challenging them......

    a.k.a. I/O
    That's where the LIE sits the kid down and says, "Kid, we can't really force you to do anything you don't want to do. But consider this; your mother and I are on your side. We want you to grow up to be happy and successful. She's giving you good moral advice on how to relate to people, and I'm showing you what will happen if you follow some of your bahaviors to their logical conclusions. You have our unquestioned support, but you are going to end up with the life that you, yourself, make. And you make that life by the tiny decisions that you make every day.
    Now let's take a drive around town and look at some of the citizens and the lives they have made for themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    That's where the LIE sits the kid down and says, "Kid, we can't really force you to do anything you don't want to do. But consider this; your mother and I are on your side. We want you to grow up to be happy and successful. She's giving you good moral advice on how to relate to people, and I'm showing you what will happen if you follow some of your bahaviors to their logical conclusions. You have our unquestioned support, but you are going to end up with the life that you, yourself, make. And you make that life by the tiny decisions that you make every day.
    Now let's take a drive around town and look at some of the citizens and the lives they have made for themselves.
    Yes, it seems essential for an ESI to have a partner who can take over in times of stress. I know of one ESI who left her husband and young children for an LSE who had previously left his three young children with their mother; both had nothing to do with the raising of their children once they left. Oddly, the ESI still does a fair amount of babysitting of infants for relatives.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    ESI are great with babies because of their Si demonstrative. This covers up LIE polr who usyally dont like babies much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Yes, it seems essential for an ESI to have a partner who can take over in times of stress. I know of one ESI who left her husband and young children for an LSE who had previously left his three young children with their mother; both had nothing to do with the raising of their children once they left. Oddly, the ESI still does a fair amount of babysitting of infants for relatives.

    a.k.a. I/O
    @Rebelondeck, this is very interesting. I married an SLI because I thought that she would make a good mother. When she became pregnant, we agreed that whoever was earning less would quit their job and stay home to raise the kid. She did NOT want to do that and arranged to get a raise a few weeks before the birth, which put her ahead and so I, per our deal, quit my job and became a househusband and raised the kid.
    Maybe this behavior is baked into LIE’s, IDK.

    I recently dated an ESI who runs a small business and told her I’d like to have kids. She told me that I’d have to be the one to raise them. I told her I could do that again, but it didn’t make much economic sense because my income can support many people while hers barely supported her. She told me she had lots of nieces and nephews and that was our last date.

    On the other hand, I know a male ESI who is divorced with two children (teenagers headed to college) and they both live with him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roger557 View Post
    ESI are great with babies because of their Si demonstrative. This covers up LIE polr who usyally dont like babies much.
    I don't like babies much so I guess I'm LIE after all.


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    I saw an LIE guy standing outside of the grocery store wearing one baby and watching his other child play. I’m pretty sure it’s not type related whether you like babies.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    I saw an LIE guy standing outside of the grocery store wearing one baby and watching his other child play. I’m pretty sure it’s not type related whether you like babies.
    It's true. The thing with LIE's is that they don't like to see glaring vulnerability in any being, and there's nothing more vulnerable than a baby. I've seen LIE's play with babies and like them a great deal too, but LIE's excel with children who are in an age where they are already able to reason. It's even said in the descriptions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roger557 View Post
    It's true. The thing with LIE's is that they don't like to see glaring vulnerability in any being, and there's nothing more vulnerable than a baby. I've seen LIE's play with babies and like them a great deal too, but LIE's excel with children who are in an age where they are already able to reason. It's even said in the descriptions.
    This is precisely why I prefer children to pets. Children eventually get smart.

    Although there are mixed blessing associated with getting smarter.

    I taught my son to speak, and his profit on 't is he knows how to curse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roger557 View Post
    It's true. The thing with LIE's is that they don't like to see glaring vulnerability in any being, and there's nothing more vulnerable than a baby. I've seen LIE's play with babies and like them a great deal too, but LIE's excel with children who are in an age where they are already able to reason. It's even said in the descriptions.
    Yeah...they have to be at least 3 years old.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    I don't think I'll ever have children but then again nothing is impossible
    For men it's easier, you can even keep the possibility in mind after 50 or so, women have to make that decision earlier
    It is more dangerous for babies if their father helps make them after he is thirty-five

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrsTortilla View Post
    Some men, like one of my grandfathers, have kids into their 90's. Women have to deal with quite a lot of difficult decisions... Nature is a cruel master.
    Nah.men endanger their kids if they help make them after age thirty-five. Also, we can all adopt.

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    The ESI I know absolutely loves babies. Seeing her face go from so stern and serious to bright and smiling at the sight of a baby is always heartwarming, especially when she starts making goofy faces to make the baby laugh. She can't have kids because of her job but had said she would want some if not for that fact.

    I'm no good with babies and children myself. Children and babies always hate me for some reason. Probably because I look like an asshole and talk to them like I do adults...

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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    It is more dangerous for babies if their father helps make them after he is thirty-five
    Really? Where did you read that? I know people whose parents were both +40 when they were born and they are intelligent, healthy individuals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Really? Where did you read that? I know people whose parents were both +40 when they were born and they are intelligent, healthy individuals.
    Google Scholar.

    look at sample size.

    you're using people you know.

    they may be in the less affected or lucky group

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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    It is more dangerous for babies if their father helps make them after he is thirty-five
    The principle difference exists that men are much lesser limited by age to have children, unlike women which are doubtful to born after 40-45 at all or without critical health problems for them and children.

    Now about that "more". The risk from men age itself can be low, at least mb up to 50 yo. The stats I saw were gotten from general view, where a correlation does not point on reasons. Older fathers have older women. That mother's age influences strongly is evident. Also there are negative factors which may be _linked_ with age and may influence, as that many older men take meds with side effects, may use alcohol for long time, may work for long near dangerous substances (women more rare have such jobs), may for long time eat low quality meal, may to have reduced immunity due to lack physical load, more of them have disorders which may influence, etc. This makes the _degree_ of fathers' age factor (taken itself) as questionable still and thay risks may vary significantly among concrete people. Also it's important how much is that "after".

    For correct data for the men age factor, they'd need to take children born from young (<25 yo) women with men of 35-40 yo (and other 5 year range groups) without significant additional risks (alcoholism, toxic environments at occupations, some health disorders, etc). Then to compare the criterion with pairs where both parrents are young. I did not hear about such researches still.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    The principle difference exists that men are much lesser limited by age to have children, unlike women which are doubtful to born after 40-45 at all or without critical health problems for them and children.

    Now about that "more". The risk from men age itself can be low, at least mb up to 50 yo. The stats I saw were gotten from general view, where a correlation does not point on reasons. Older fathers have older women. That mother's age influences strongly is evident.
    You seem to have not read this: "Regardless of paternal age, however, if the father was 11 years or older than the mother, that rate jumped to 24 percent. The greatest risk of mental health disorders—42 percent—was seen in the children of fathers aged 50 and older, with wives at least 11 years younger than their husbands."https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/children-with-older-dads-at-greater-mental-illness-risk/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    men (...) may work for long near dangerous substances (women more rare have such jobs), may for long time eat low quality meal, may to have reduced immunity due to lack physical load, more of them have disorders which may influence, etc. This makes the _degree_ of fathers' age factor (taken itself) as questionable still and thay risks may vary significantly among concrete people.
    as for that:

    "Work – formal and informal, paid and unpaid – plays a central role in the lives of people all across the world.
    Through work, women and men define themselves and their roles in society. Yet while many jobs provide both
    income and personal satisfaction, they may also pose hazards and risks to health and safety. The ILO estimates
    that each year about 2.3 million men and women die from work-related accidents and diseases, including close
    to 360,000 fatal accidents and an estimated 1.95 million fatal work-related diseases.1
    Hazardous substances
    cause an estimated 651,000 deaths, mostly in the developing world. These numbers may be greatly underestimated due to the inadequate reporting and notification systems in many countries.
    The risks to men workers are better known given that occupational safety and health considerations had
    previously focused on dangerous jobs, in sectors dominated by male workers. Today, however, women represent
    over 40 percent of the global workforce, or 1.2 billion out of the global total of 3 billion workers.2
    This increasing
    proportion of women in the workforce has lead to a range of gender-related questions about the different
    effects of work-related risks on men and women, in terms of exposure to hazardous substances, or the impact of
    biological agents on reproductive health, the physical demands of heavy
    work, the ergonomic design of workplaces and the length of the working
    day, especially when domestic duties also have to be taken into account.

    Moreover, occupational safety and health (OSH) hazards affecting
    women workers have been traditionally under-estimated because OSH
    standards and exposure limits to hazardous substances are based on
    male populations and laboratory tests.
    3
    Sex-based labour force segregation contributes to different workplace
    health and safety challenges for women and men. For example, men
    are more present in industries such as construction and mining, while
    the vast majority of women workers are in agriculture and the services
    sectors.4
    Women are more likely than men to have low paid jobs and
    are less likely than men to be supervisors and managers. A significant
    proportion of women can also be found in the informal economy where
    they face unsafe and unhealthy working conditions
    , low or irregular
    incomes, job insecurity and lack of access to information, markets,
    finance, training and technology."
    1 ILO. Beyond deaths and injuries: The ILO’s role in promoting safe and healthy jobs, Report for discussion at the XVIII World Congress on Safety and Health at Work, Seoul, Korea, June 2008, p. 1. 2 ILO. Global Employment Trends for Women, March 2009, p. 10. 3 V. Forastieri, Information Note on Women Workers and Gender Issues on Occupational Safety and Health (Geneva, ILO, SafeWork, 2000), p. 3. 4
    ibid., p.3.

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post

    men (...) may for long time eat low quality meal, may to have reduced immunity due to lack physical load,

    THIS IS NOT UNIQUE TO MALES in the OLDER subset of the population. It would hold true in older women, as well.

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    The principle difference exists that men are much lesser limited by age to have children, unlike women which are doubtful to born after 40-45 at all or without critical health problems for them and children.

    Now about that "more". The risk from men age itself can be low, at least mb up to 50 yo. The stats I saw were gotten from general view, where a correlation does not point on reasons. Older fathers have older women. That mother's age influences strongly is evident. Also there are negative factors which may be _linked_ with age and may influence, as that many older men take meds with side effects, may use alcohol for long time, may work for long near dangerous substances (women more rare have such jobs), may for long time eat low quality meal, may to have reduced immunity due to lack physical load, more of them have disorders which may influence, etc. This makes the _degree_ of fathers' age factor (taken itself) as questionable still and thay risks may vary significantly among concrete people. Also it's important how much is that "after".

    For correct data for the men age factor, they'd need to take children born from young (<25 yo) women with men of 35-40 yo (and other 5 year range groups) without significant additional risks (alcoholism, toxic environments at occupations, some health disorders, etc). Then to compare the criterion with pairs where both parrents are young. I did not hear about such researches still.
    "children born to women who are 22 to 24 years old have a 29 percent higher risk of schizophrenia than those with mothers in their early 30s. For children born to mothers 15 to 21 years old, the risk of schizophrenia jumps by 76 percent.

    That parental age influences autism and schizophrenia risk in opposite directions hints at separate underlying mechanisms, says Daniel Weinberger, professor of psychiatry, neurology and neuroscience at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, who was not involved with the study.

    For instance, the risk of autism from having an older father may stem from spontaneous mutations in sperm that accumulate over time, Weinberger says. This type of mutation may be less important for schizophrenia risk. (Some have cast doubt on the aging sperm theory in autism as well, however.)

    The study also revealed that both autism and schizophrenia risk increase as the age difference between parents expands — a finding in line with previous reports.

    The researchers controlled for variables that influence autism and schizophrenia risk, such as a family history of psychiatric conditions and birth complications. But because older mothers have a high risk of complications such as preterm birth, controlling for those problems may lead to artificially low estimates of the effects of maternal age, says Brian Lee, associate professor of epidemiology and biostatistics at Drexel University in Philadelphia, who was not involved with the study."

    Spectrumnews.org

    It still well isolates male age as correlated with autism in the offspring, even if in some cases maternal age contribution to current cases of autism may be less clear from this one study, given the isolation that more closely examines male parent age and autism in offspring.

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