Could you quote exactly what he said? The Fe accentuation part.Originally Posted by The Iconoclast
I thought some have said that H subtype can create Polr accentuation but I might have remembered wrong.
Could you quote exactly what he said? The Fe accentuation part.
I thought some have said that H subtype can create Polr accentuation but I might have remembered wrong.
Unfortunately, he didn't give me much explanation. He said:
"There is also another argument. Judging by his facial expressions, The Iconoclast is a man who does not manage his emotions well. He has no ethical ease or trust in relationships; he calculates people rather than feels them. Only a skeptical or ironic smile appears on his face. His emotions are not smooth like Lyric's, but abrupt and sometimes inadequate to the situation. This leads me to the conclusion that his ethics of emotion, though accentuated, is a vulnerable function of his psyche (E7)."
Said also:
"And the attraction to drama is explained by the dialectical nature of his thinking, in which opposing interpretations collide in the struggle for a holistic reflection of man and the world."
I’ve heard that thing about the POLR function and H subtype somewhere before too; I think it comes from someone named Borisova rather than Victor’s system: https://wikisocion.github.io/content/DCNH_Borisova.html
In Victor’s system, subtype and accentuated functions are considered separate layers with some overlap, so any subtype can have any accentuation (they operate a bit differently). However, some accentuations are pretty rare, like a Brake function accentuation, so it’s cool that Iconoclast may have that (may be partly reflected in the name "Iconoclast", lol).
Nice bro, I can retract my nutz from your mouth now lol
To be an ILI having an accentuation in Fe is to be half schizoid and half hysterical. Same thing an EIE with an accentuation in Ni (@SanguineMiasma qualifies).
I looked for the descriptions of accentuations proposed by the psychiatrist K. Leonhard. Fe accentuation would be the demonstrative or hysterical accentuation:
"has a pronounced tendency to repress unpleasant facts and events, to deceit, fantasy and pretense, used to attract attention; behavior characterized by adventurism, vanity, "flight into the disease" with an unsatisfied need for recognition."
Varlawend and The Iconoclast - IEI
If all your typings were correct then society would have collapsed due to a lack of Se and Te.
But they think they are ILI, so they have 1D Se either way. You think society collapses because a bunch of artistically interested people are IEI? I would say it's the other way around. Society collapses when SLE, LSE, SEI spend all day sitting at home reading esoteric books and listening to obscure music etc.
I have more than enough examples of different types in my gallery. I just don't feel the need to talk about them.
https://soziotypen.de/bekannte-persoenlichkeiten/
Just because someone's artistically inclined doesn't mean they're IEI.
Hot, bulldoze my face with your poosy
My credit card is already maxed out from buying 10000L of your bathwater m’lady
You should know this, I gave you my PIN code on a card last time you stomped on my nutz with high heels bby
Thanks. I think I really relate ethics well in terms of how I see people. Some ILIs I have seen tend to have huge mood swings and breakdowns. At least Model G puts #1 function in management. As such I think people may have hard times picking up any sort of emotional instability from me. Some may label it as very sane. Lol.
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I could try to go upstairs and take it from my mom’s purse, but it’s a risk because the basement lock is on the outside
I actually don’t even dispute such a typing in your system. It seems on your site that most artistically and abstractly inclined people are IEI anyways. What concerns me is less its correctness given your criteria, but rather its meaning and value. I don’t necessarily think I am ILI in some literal sense; rather ILI is my best fit type in SHS. But I have different best types in other systems, like NeFi in Vultology, INTP in Keirsey’s system, etc. And these systems also have potentially different levels of value. As for Iconoclast, pretty sure he is questioning his best fit type even in Victor’s system.
ah yes, I disagree with many of Gulenko's typings nowadays but I do admit that they make a lot of sense within the framework he is working with. when you read his EIE description, his famous typing gallery makes a lot of sense, but I would argue that extroverts are less likely to be extreme cases like dictators due to them being at least somewhat connected to the society they are in. I see EIE as hyper social individuals who, out of the 16 types, easily communicate the most in a social setting, while many of the examples he has in his gallery are rather shy and non-communicative individuals, and I don't think functional accentuations can be so extreme that they completely overshadow the base type. I discussed the issue a bit with his team but wasn't really satisfied with their answer. not sure how involved gulenko is with the gallery they display since his team seems to be at least somewhat involved with it and Gulenko always seemed more like a researcher to me that probably doesn't spend too much time or mental energy on typing celebrities or famous people. as far as abstract thinking goes, I haven't really discussed my gallery with gulenko but I think he at least comes to a similar conclusion as me considering that he wrote an article about grigori perelman and how a developed intuition of time seems to result in giftedness.
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ons-by-Gulenko
so the direction we take with this is similar, he just doesn't type artists or scientists specifically as IEI (a type that he doesn't have much examples of in his gallery). he types perelman as ILI.
Last edited by on a peaceful hiatus; 06-04-2022 at 09:29 PM.
LOL
it could be, it should be
From what I have read, EIEs have a variety of emotional states that can conflict with each other, but unlike ILIs, they are able to manage them appropriately. For me, this is a more difficult issue to highlight, because I am diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome and Bipolar Disorder. I am that Mikhail who asked Gulenko if accentuation in Ni is the way to trace Asperger's Syndrome in an individual in his system. Initially, my self-typing was EIE-C-T like yours lol.
Last edited by The Iconoclast; 06-21-2022 at 10:12 PM.
Jung talks about this in detail. When Fe gets too pronounced it is as if you had Fe on autopilot without connection to the real personality. The real person becomes overshadowed by Fe and you just see shifting feeling judgements without consistency. When this gets worse comes opposition from Ti: Sudden cold and overly blunt judgements were the previous feeling connection to the object is gone. I don't remember everything of how it works but it is in his Fe description and is valid for EIE and ESE.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
I typed myself as an IEI for a while. Basically, I was between EIE or IEI. But, I identify very much with Dialectical-Algorithmic cognition, except that I still see myself more as an ethical type than a logical one. I have always been very influenced by emotions, which are often violent and dramatic. I am not thrifty, I spend my money irrationally, I am impulsive and impatient, etc. It's hard to see myself having 4D Te. I also think I fit the EIE image better than the ILI image. In Model G, the IEI image doesn't fit very well, although I identify with many characteristics of the type. There is an obvious contrast between my sister who is EII-C and me. I am much more outgoing and sociable than she is. Except, I am also a socially isolated guy, which for a moment I understood to be an accentuation on Ni. I think that a few minutes of an interview is not really enough to identify certain characteristics that present themselves intrinsically over a lifetime. Also, my spoken English is terrible. I was subject to a lot of anxiety (I tried to record the video at least about 50 times.) And some questions require a certain internal self-awareness that can be flawed, especially in extroverts. It is difficult to track your thinking unambiguously. I don't believe that the method itself is flawed, but it is not infallible. Mistakes can happen, and it is normal. An anamnesis, as done by psychiatrists or psychologists, would be very useful as an integral part of the method. A person's development over time must be taken into consideration. Anyway, I have my reasons to doubt, and I think it is right that people express any doubts related to the results. After all, human feedback is essential for the development of certain scientific methods. Especially when a science aims to define and explain the individual and the social interaction between different types of people.
yeah the interview approach has a multitude of flaws that a hard to fix, lots of variables to consider. if you are an irrational type, the mood you have during the 15 minutes you are shooting the video can have a significant effect on how you come across. most questions can't be answered in a black and white way for most people. if you are a Fe valuing type, you might present yourself as someone you are not in real life, since Fe adapts itself to the environment they are in. a video format doesn't have a 3D element to it. you do not observe body language, pecularities in speech and behaviour, the way you interact with others etc., it's basically a snapshot of yourself that can be blurry. Gulenko doesn't speak english but understands it but there's obviously still a chance that he misunderstands something that has been said. he probably has a solid foundation and framework to type and he most often gets the general direction but the typing method is far from ideal. so what's the better approach? I don't know. gulenko has more experience than any other socionist but jack's approach to typing interviews is probably better since he actively engages with the other person but I don't think he is skilled at typing others. I would consider doing interviews but it seems too time consuming for me with little internal reward. gulenko seems like the best alternative out of the ones that are available.
all I can say is that Gulenko imo types based on his experience in eastern europe, where socionics is already established and a variety of types are using his services. in the western world however socionics is extremly unknown and you should ask yourself what potential type is going to invest the mental energy and time to study something very obscure that doesn't give tangible benefits at first glance.
Last edited by on a peaceful hiatus; 06-04-2022 at 11:00 PM.
@The Iconoclast when you develop a presentation, is there a systematic element to it? For example, do you make observations, derive principles, and apply methods to create a persona?
Why do you believe that being more connected to a society makes one less likely to be a dictator? Also, connected in what sense? It seems like there are a lot of attributes that relate to being "connected" to a society and that this could mean many things. Although Mentors are extroverts, they are also critical, rebellious and touchy negativists who tend towards remoteness and more polycentric group structure. I don't see any reason why they should easily be "connected" to a society in all senses of the term, even though they may easily be able to AFFECT it. Extroversion in Socionics usually relates more to energy and work, the ability to have an impact (rather than to reflect or reflect upon something), but this extroversion of doing work and having an impact isn't the same thing as being connected to something in a sense of being conformally adapted to it. Being connected to a society could relate also to having a connecting subtype (dominant, harmonizing) which is more sensitive to changes that occur in that society/group/organization, or it could relate to being a Normalizing subtype that is well adapted to the norms of a society.
Basically, it seems like you see the types in a "flatter" sense (i.e. they can't play subtypical or functionally accentuated roles other than that of their base type, they don't have a significantly layered structure of playing different roles on different levels). This is just a fundamental disagreement that you have with the SHS school and since neither of your positions is simply self-evident, they will have to be hashed out in a more open-minded way to reach any greater agreement.
All of the typings in the gallery are Victor's typings, but a few of them are older and could possibly be reconsidered in light of new evidence (for example, Victor doesn't think Bill Gates as LIE anymore and I'm not sure that has been updated). He doesn't really spend too much time typing famous people because he already has so many clients and courses and such and is almost always busy, and what little time he has left is needed for his reflections (as you'd probably imagine since as you mention he is a researcher).
Accentuated T can result in giftedness in narrow areas of abstract science and art, due to the ability to process huge amounts of information in concentration. However, all of the accentuations can lead to forms of "giftedness" of their own.
I think Victor has typed some artists as Lyricist even in his gallery and a few more besides that, but he doesn't tie type so strictly to occupation (e.g. someone isn't a Mentor because they are an artist or scientist, but because they have the traits of Linear Assertive temperament, Humanitarian activity orientation, Dialectical style of thinking, etc.).
It is definitely true that one's mood can have an effect on how they come across, but there are independent signs of irrationality that aren't usually so difficult to perceive. Most typing in SHS school is done not on what people say (this is only secondary evidence), but rather via their nonverbal signals of which they usually aren't even aware. I'm not saying that's fullproof either and it would definitely be nice if it was transparent, but simply presenting oneself in a certain light is not a simple way around such subconscious and pervasive mannerisms that we have. And it is certainly possible (and necessary) to observe body language in a properly recorded interview. It's definitely true that Victor misunderstands what people say sometimes though, but he also does interviews in his native Russian for many clients and in these interviews he does engage with people in the way that Jack does (he just doesn't do that for English speakers since he doesn't speak much of the language). The service is probably higher quality in Russian for this reason.
There is a question as to whether people's type alone will determine whether they are interested in studying something like Socionics. First of all, subtype could arguably affect this. But also, our life experience can differ a lot, and even types like Normalizing Inspector can see concrete benefits to studying something like Socionics, since it gives them a system for people (useful for their L) and can give concrete benefit in their interactions with others and in their understanding of themselves. I don't think our type gives us deterministic beliefs or inclinations in terms of open-mindedness or conservatism in all questions; I think it's just part of our psychic structure/skeleton which says something about how we behave, process things, and relate to others.
Yes. When I analyze emotion charts I find myself bit perplexed because I can definitely mix things together in ways that seem impossible.
I think I have encountered EIEs with Aspergers' (this forum included).
It is interesting. The original article mentions aristocratic features.
[I have an ability to go into this very deep mode of thinking. I do not have sensory overloads but I had reactivity to bad sensing experiences that made protest things quite visibly and made me very cautious about food and such. I think, personally, this diagnosis would potentially shoehorn me to become even more unhealthy.]
Last edited by The Reality Denialist; 06-05-2022 at 10:57 AM.
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Sincerely yours,
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People with autism.
People with Ni accentuation yes
In a socionics sense, an extraverted autistic person sounds antinomic to me. An Fe Dom autistic person sounds beyond reasonable, it's like saying " a 6.2 feet Dwarf" or a deaf submarine sonar operatorNo matter the subtype you can not have an ASD diagnosis and (of all the types !) being an Fe Lead those diagnosis are mutually exclusive. Furthermore, a natural virtuoso of human Emotions like EIE ( 4D Fe come on !!) can not be at the same time naturally unable to understand underlying emotions and facial expressions which is one of the markers of ASD regardless of whether the autistic person is HFA or not.
I have the feeling that Asperger Syndrome™ (obsolet) is over diagnosed, esp in adults which is a nonsense since there are no criteria to do so when it comes to adult. ASD is essentially detected in childhood. A lot of Intuitive thinkers (both introverts and extraverts) people get diagnosed with autism just because of their "difficulties" or disabilities in social communications skills which correlate to low Fe and Fi in socionics. ASD is most and foremost a Handicap, a disorder not a label. There are some articles pretending that Extroverted autism is a thing, pointing as example to some poets and artists etc.. Imho those article were written by Intuitive Extraverts ( probably IEEs) under the light of modern days where one can be anything one wants, which is in itself a good thing of course but not in this case. Again, Autism is not an Identity it's a disorder. I think it's not fair for people struggling with ASD to take their disorder for a "cool" label :
"Hey guys ! My name is Jane, I'm an IEE E279 I work as a social worker ! I'm also a life coach and give advices to people struggling with relationships and by the way, I have Asperger Syndrome! Nice to meet you !"
Just saying that people are seriously diagnosing H1tler as autistic. Goes to show that there is no consensus what it is.In a socionics sense, an extraverted autistic person sounds antinomic to me. An Fe Dom autistic person sounds beyond reasonable, it's like saying " a 6.2 feet Dwarf" or a deaf submarine sonar operator
I have the feeling that Asperger Syndrome™ (obsolet) is over diagnosed, esp in adults which is a nonsense since there are no criteria to do so when it comes to adult. ASD is essentially detected in childhood. A lot of Intuitive thinkers (both introverts and extraverts) people get diagnosed with autism just because of their "difficulties" or disabilities in social communications skills which correlate to low Fe and Fi in socionics. ASD is most and foremost a Handicap, a disorder not a label. There are some articles pretending that Extroverted autism is a thing, pointing as example to some poets and artists etc.. Imho those article were written by Intuitive Extraverts ( probably IEEs) under the light of modern days where one can be anything one wants, which is in itself a good thing of course but not in this case. Again, Autism is not an Identity it's a disorder. I think it's not fair for people struggling with ASD to take their disorder for a "cool" label :
"Hey guys ! My name is Jane, I'm an IEE E279 I work as a social worker ! I'm also a life coach and give advices to people struggling with relationships and by the way, I have Asperger Syndrome
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
this woman is imo an EIE that has been diagnosed with autism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAtMKiqW1kM&t
in a german psychological journal they recently pubished an article about ADHS. I thought the title was interesting:
Unfocused due to compulsive daydreaming
Some people with ADHD keep immersing themselves in fantasy worlds, so much so that it becomes a problem in everyday life. It is possible that a completely different diagnosis would be more suitable and helpful for you.
In the case of “compulsive daydreaming”, those affected sometimes lose themselves in fantasies for hours, neglect important tasks and find it difficult to concentrate – so much so that this causes problems in everyday life. Patients are often diagnosed with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD). But that doesn't necessarily help them. Maladaptive daydreaming (MD), as the phenomenon is also known, has not yet been recognized as an official psychiatric diagnosis, although many experts advocate it. Among them is the psychologist Nirit Soffer-Dudek from the Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Israel. Together with her team, she analyzed whether MD could underlie some ADHD diagnoses. The researchers published their results in the Journal of Clinical Psychology.
I feel like Ni is often seen as a mental illness among the general population.
I am personally careful about labeling actual diagnoses with socionics terms. One is a bit sturdier of a description than the other. But I do actually think that socionics seems useful to people with a poor understanding of others, and appeals to the categorical/obsessive tendencies of people on the spectrum.
I think developed Ni is necessary to perceive the types in the first place.
Generally I imagine how I want to be seen, and then follows a strong desire to present myself in that way. It seems like a introjection between myself and a imaginary self or a living being (characteristics from others that I find interesting to incorporate into my persona). I can seem to be like different people from time to time, and in interactions I can constantly become a mirror to another person, like a blurry reflection of other people. The consequence is that I sometimes don't really know who I really am inside. My self dissolve in a bunch of people I have invented. When I look back in time, I see a pattern of constant transformations, and when I compare with who I am today, I get a little perplexed with this identity shifts. Perhaps it is somewhat related to the trait Openness in Big Five that I score very high.
Thanks. There is a generalist nature to Fe. These people seem to get lost in this bunch of nuanced feelings and desires. It can get so broad and expansive that the person dissociate from their deep bottom essence. I think LSIs balance this with Ti, so that EIEs can localize and focus this scattered multiplicity of emotional states.
Certainly DSM is too rigid in its categorizations. They know the symptoms, but not the causes. It is fairly easy to read all those descriptions and identify with many disorders, even when some characteristics are just personality features. Furthermore, there is a weird tendency to arbitrarially put labels in people just because they seemingly show some characteristics of certains psychiatric disorders. We give too much credit to modern psychiatry, even when its methods are sometimes instrinsically flawed.In a socionics sense, an extraverted autistic person sounds antinomic to me. An Fe Dom autistic person sounds beyond reasonable, it's like saying " a 6.2 feet Dwarf" or a deaf submarine sonar operator
I have the feeling that Asperger Syndrome™ (obsolet) is over diagnosed, esp in adults which is a nonsense since there are no criteria to do so when it comes to adult. ASD is essentially detected in childhood. A lot of Intuitive thinkers (both introverts and extraverts) people get diagnosed with autism just because of their "difficulties" or disabilities in social communications skills which correlate to low Fe and Fi in socionics. ASD is most and foremost a Handicap, a disorder not a label. There are some articles pretending that Extroverted autism is a thing, pointing as example to some poets and artists etc.. Imho those article were written by Intuitive Extraverts ( probably IEEs) under the light of modern days where one can be anything one wants, which is in itself a good thing of course but not in this case. Again, Autism is not an Identity it's a disorder. I think it's not fair for people struggling with ASD to take their disorder for a "cool" label :
"Hey guys ! My name is Jane, I'm an IEE E279 I work as a social worker ! I'm also a life coach and give advices to people struggling with relationships and by the way, I have Asperger Syndrome
Aspects in the Valued Functions by Dmitry Golihov
Ni as leading function in IEI (INFp; Esenin) and ILI (INTp; Balzac)
This person considers himself to be very ideological, consistent, principled, and is very conservative in this. Becomes irritated by those who criticize his ideas. He lives by the "wholeness" of the internal situation. Often able to see "through" things, to the inner essence of something or someone. Romantic and idealist. Lives by his internal harmony, tranquility, serenity, is able to draw inspiration within himself, and gets annoyed by those who try to disturb it. Generally does not like when people try to look inside of him, gets frustrated and angry when this happens. Strives to be inwardly calm in all situations and internally consistent. "Fluid like a river": involuntarily adjusts himself to the interlocutor in conversation by taking form of consciousness that is best fitted for the situation. By this he isn't playing a role, his consciousness is simply multifaceted and he is directed by his inner "wholeness". That is, he simply presents a version of himself. Communicating with you, he always feels your moods as if he is living through them together with you, adjusts himself to this. Loves to introspect and to meditate. In case of failure, can make a qualitative self-analysis. Being present in some place he as if tunes himself out, tries to become invisible like a chameleon, especially if he perceives it as a threat to his inner tranquility: for example, in the workplace so that no one bothers him. Can even hide it in some clever way: arrange a barricade of folders so that behind them he is not visible. Does not like restless, internally discordant individuals, as their state can get transmitted to him, will try to escape from their company at any price. This is especially funny in a situation where a male representative of this type flees from ladies, and they pursue him like prey, because they feel that he has something that they so desperately need: inner peace. But for him this inner "wholeness" is not the product but material for inner consumption, so he can only share this with a small number of people, but sometimes someone might snatch a piece - this makes him very angry. Often, especially in circle of family, he becomes a critic, since deviation in behavior away from his principles turns him aggressive. If in another situation he will somehow restrain himself, at home he may allow himself to explode with anger.
Golihov probably mostly describes IEI's Ni here due to Fe adapting to their surroundings while Fi in ILI generally always tries to be itself regardless of the surrounding.
Imho, Self image management and consciousness of the impact said image can have on other is inconsistent with 1D unvalued Fe. You think : Myself + what other will think of me + I want them to think x y or z about me. If you succeed then, 1)you are not PolR Fe 2) your Fe is conscious (mental ring) 3) it's an Ego function since you verbalize those thoughts in this post. (although awareness of socionics can influence it).
I don't know if this is socionics related but it seems to me that this is a manifestation of Fe. I always take the example of the Alien in the movie "Abyss" who can control the water so it takes the shape of its interlocutor. It's a communication skill, I do this too in certain situations and at the end of the conversation my interlocutor thinks that we think alike when sometimes nothing can be further from the truth. I know that this is also an Enneagram 9 trait. The bold part is significant, it suggest Fe>Fi with the consciousness of not being fully "authentic" while wanted to be. I think that the people or characters you created are part of you and like Aristotle said : "The whole is greater than the sum of the parts".I can seem to be like different people from time to time, and in interactions I can constantly become a mirror to another person, like a blurry reflection of other people. The consequence is that I sometimes don't really know who I really am inside. My self dissolve in a bunch of people I have invented.
I feel you. I think you're right about the Openness traits. I consider my Self as a sort of psychic collage of several people who influenced me and of whom I integrated a part, kinda like Cell in DBZ. I also think of the random character in vs fighting games who could be anyone of them. Anyway, I hope you didn't mind my little analysis. I can understand that you may emit a doubts about your ILI typing.When I look back in time, I see a pattern of constant transformations, and when I compare with who I am today, I get a little perplexed with this identity shifts. Perhaps it is somewhat related to the trait Openness in Big Five that I score very high.
Last edited by godslave; 06-07-2022 at 09:39 PM.
I think I saw the bolded part in other ILI's report in the section Thinking vs Feeling part.
This part is interesting, he basically makes ILI-IEI comparison here:
His emotions are not smooth like Lyric's, but abrupt and sometimes inadequate to the situation. This leads me to the conclusion that his ethics of emotion, though accentuated, is a vulnerable function of his psyche (E7).
So I assume G didnt write any section like ILI-C-E only wrote ILI-C part.
@Varlawend as far as G reports go, I only know two people going from DCNH transition, they were going from C to N, so do you know if there is a general order to this DCNH transition if there is no shock factor? or people can be in a transition to anything with equal chance like C to N, C to D, C to H transitions have equal probability of happening?
I would say the most common switch is a downgrade. When Creative subtypes get depressed and become N-subs, or N to H. I think an upgrade is much more unlikely
I was wondering the same thing. Personally, I don't think that there is a fixed sequential order or predictable pattern . I think the only way that would be totally predictable is within a computer simulation or in a fictional writing where we have an absolute control over all the events that could influence a character in his "lifetime". Although our life choices can engage us in a certain path with a predictable course, we can not predict the collateral events that could happen along the way and which can have a significant impact on our psyche. Anyway, that's an interesting question
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