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Thread: Democrats: What if?

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    https://nypost.com/2020/09/08/trump-says-restaurant-rioters-will-be-in-charge-if-joe-biden-wins/

    President Trump on Tuesday told rally-goers in North Carolina that if Democrat Joe Biden defeats him, “rioters” who harass restaurant diners would run the country.

    “Next time you see video of screaming far-left maniacs shouting wildly at peaceful Americans, remember this, these are Biden’s supporters, and if he wins they will be in charge of your government,” Trump told a crowd in Winston-Salem.

    It was one of Trump’s largest re-election rallies since the coronavirus pandemic struck in March. He estimated turnout at 15,000 and the campaign distributed rally signs claiming the event was a peaceful protest.

    “Joe Biden and his party spent the entire summer cheering on the rioters rampaging through Democrat-run cities, falsely labeling them as peaceful protesters,” Trump said.

    “You can’t go to church, you can’t do anything, you have to stay in your house. But if you’re willing to riot running down Main Street, if you’re willing to riot, stand on top of each other’s face and do whatever the hell you want to do, you’re allowed to do that because you’re considered a peaceful protester — so we decided to call our rallies peaceful protests.”

    Trump repeatedly evoked jarring imagery of unwitting restaurant diners being confronted by enraged protesters.

    “If they win, the mobs win. You see these guys that go around saying, ‘Yeah, I want your meal. Give me that food. Give me.’ A woman sitting there, she wants to eat, and they come they grab her food, they grab her drink. Nobody’s ever seen stuff like this,” Trump said. “If Biden wins the rioters, anarchists and arsonists win.”





















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    It used to kinda annoy me how gay males couldn't be team players with each other the way str8 men often are. The "bros" - we are often more suspicious and bitchy with each other and try to drag each other down like female lobsters in the boiling pot experiment. And gay males often disagree and argue too much instead of just shutting up and playing baseball or going hunting together like str8 men.

    But now I think this is actually more of a strength because being more hive-minded like Trump's str8 white minions seems really moronic to me now. I'm sure there is some gay guys in the swarm of hive but I mean, in general you know lol. ((Gays are about diversity and how you can be masculine and/or femme, where otoh it seems like there is more one pure, singular way to be 'straight' because it's well, straight.)) I would hate to blindly look up to an unhealthy male authority figure cuz of my own daddy issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    He did say that, and about Republican verbal attacks on Democrats.

    But why didn't a mob of black liberals with guns storm the Capitol during Trump's inauguration?
    This is some of what happened in DC during Trump's inauguration. Totally normal peaceful stuff :



    And from mainstream, official sanctioned sources since you prefer those:

    https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/19/polit...rch/index.html




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    from the hellfire inumbra's Avatar
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    But @squark did they actually try to take over the capitol or did they make symbolic gestures? There's a difference. I make symbolic gestures in my mind all the time. I don't actually show up at any sorts of protests. There is a spectrum, and these nuances matter no matter how the culture of fear wants to destroy nuance on either side.

    Even the difference bt invading Adidas stores and the actual capitol bldg matters. Eff these corporate powers. We don't vote for them. But the govt that can still protect us from these aholes, wtf?

    And frankly as much as SJW culture continues to pollute things I know I have more freedom bc I'm white. The religion of social justice is wrong. But I acknowledge inequality. I just ask for sanity. SJWism is just as authoritarian as what @Adam Strange complains about.

    If we want to fix it these corporate powers need to be under the authority of govt, not free to rape the world however they like. Gamma is out of control. We need more Beta.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    But @squark did they actually try to take over the capitol or did they make symbolic gestures? There's a difference. I make symbolic gestures in my mind all the time. I don't actually show up at any sorts of protests. There is a spectrum, and these nuances matter no matter how the culture of fear wants to destroy nuance on either side.

    Even the difference bt invading Adidas stores and the actual capitol bldg matters. Eff these corporate powers. We don't vote for them. But the govt that can still protect us from these aholes, wtf?

    And frankly as much as SJW culture continues to pollute things I know I have more freedom bc I'm white. The religion of social justice is wrong. But I acknowledge inequality. I just ask for sanity. SJWism is just as authoritarian as what @Adam Strange complains about.

    If we want to fix it these corporate powers need to be under the authority of govt, not free to rape the world however they like. Gamma is out of control. We need more Beta.
    Take over the capitol? The Trump folks didn't do any more than the Kavanaugh protestors did in 2018. They were breaking into Senators offices and etc to protest against Kavanaugh just like the Trump people did in this protest. None of them got shot by the police though, so there's that. And all the media praised them for their bravery and so on rather than calling them terrorists and insurrectionists.

    And as for the protests around Trump's inauguration, I don't think breaking windows and setting vehicles on fire is merely a symbolic gesture. I don't think 50 injured police officers is symbolic. I think it's violent.

    Throughout this past year, more than 30 people have been killed during the riots by antifa/BLM, and that's by the rioters, not by the police. Rioters and police alike have suffered countless injuries. Billions in damages, countless small businesses destroyed. Low-income housing burned to the ground, random people attacked and beaten by the mobs. All of this has been happening, and continues to happen. It's not a small thing. And it's not merely symbolic.

    The vast majority of protestors are peaceful, and only a small percentage are doing all this damage. The same is true with the Trump rally. The vast majority was peaceful, exercising their right to protest just like everyone else has a right to protest, but a small percentage were bad actors. In my opinion only the bad actors in each group are a problem. Peaceful protests are every person's right. The two groups are treated very differently though. Big Tech and media are the same companies, and Big Corporations are right in bed with them too. So, what do you see from every big tech platform, and nearly all the big corporations? Praise for and support of BLM. And everyone is condemning the Trump people, including all of those who had nothing to do with what happened. Why? Imo, because of how it furthers their political agenda. The uniparty and establishment have been very successful in framing events to their benefit.

    Now we can get to the symbolic gestures. One group is burning American flags and the other group is waving them - symbolically one wants to tear down the US and the other wants to conserve it. But the media (owned by big tech and big corp) tells you the flag wavers are the dangerous ones and need to be forcefully removed from every tech platform, have their jobs stripped from them and completely removed from "polite society." And the people cheer. So often you hear Trump supporters compared to Nazis, but when you really look at the analogy, they better fit the role of the Jews (and interestingly a large number of orthodox jews are Trump supporters but that's beside the point lol).

    All media, both left and right is propaganda. All of it. You have to look past their reframing and find original sources when possible to see and hear for yourself what the truth is. It's really easy to find yourself in a bubble or echo chamber where this reframing of reality works really well. I've been hanging around opposite sides just listening and observing how people react and what they say, and it's like there are two separate realities functioning simultaneously, and they're not even receiving the same information, much less the same kind of framing. But the authoritarian side, the one that wants to control everyone's thoughts and behavior, wants to shut down free speech and the free flow of information and eliminate all competition isn't the so-called "fascist" Trump side. They have no desire to do any of that. It's the other side that is doing that, the side that the media, Hollywood, tech, big corporations, and establishment politicians are on, and they're not even shy about coming right out and saying as much. They're pretty open about wanting to do all of this. They've successfully labeled their opposition as the bad guys and convinced enough people that any action against these bad guys is justified and warranted, and so far it's working pretty well for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    But the authoritarian side, the one that wants to control everyone's thoughts and behavior, wants to shut down free speech and the free flow of information and eliminate all competition isn't the so-called "fascist" Trump side.
    Authoritarianism is precisely what the US needs, believe it or not. This infantile libertarian crap is what lead to our rusted bridges, flat earth/anti-vax cults and $10 an hour fast food salaries. Every country that developed and modernized quickly did so under highly authoritarian means (example: South Korea under Park Chung-hee), it's time to stop fucking around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    Authoritarianism is precisely what the US needs, believe it or not. This infantile libertarian crap is what lead to our rusted bridges, flat earth/anti-vax cults and $10 an hour fast food salaries. Every country that developed and modernized quickly did so under highly authoritarian means (example: South Korea under Park Chung-hee), it's time to stop fucking around.
    I strongly disagree. If anything authoritarianism seems to cater to the infantile-minded. After all, they're looking for a big daddy to tell everyone what to do, rather than taking personal responsibility like an adult.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I hope so, but I think it's more likely that climate change will wreak increasingly larger amounts of damage on the economy, and the costs incurred in dealing with the damage will rise to the point where people will be less able to afford to burn carbon.
    That's the 'optimist/peaceful scenario'. I'd bet that a more 'realistic' one is that climate change will affect societies not just on an economical level but also on a social level. It's probable we'll see more climate migrants from poor countries that suffer from droughts(Mexico, Africa, India....), geopolitical/military tensions about freshwater dams between subtropical countries, regional famines and riots and so on which will be the last straw on the camel's back for the globalized world(if you add to this the next COVID recession, religious tensions in a lot of places, the rising inequality and widespread "stigmatizing"/populist politics we see blooming, you get a pretty sad picture). Some places will adapt peacefully, some others will suffer wars, but I could see a new "world order" coming.
    Last edited by lkdhf qkb; 01-17-2021 at 05:44 PM.
    I rarely feel alone. I rarely talk to anyone, yet in my head i have the most amazing, the most fantastic discussions with the people in my life. In real life, what most people talk about is several orders of magnitude lesser than their inner experiences. Most people never reveal the singularity of their subjective experience.
    Maybe I should learn to explore other people's consciousness. Maybe I should aim for a real space between me and others. Instead of cultivating monologues and fantasies. It's hard, but the alternative to this seems to be madness. ~ lkdhf qkb

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    Authoritarianism is precisely what the US needs, believe it or not. This infantile libertarian crap is what lead to our rusted bridges, flat earth/anti-vax cults and $10 an hour fast food salaries. Every country that developed and modernized quickly did so under highly authoritarian means (example: South Korea under Park Chung-hee), it's time to stop fucking around.
    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    I strongly disagree. If anything authoritarianism seems to cater to the infantile-minded. After all, they're looking for a big daddy to tell everyone what to do, rather than taking personal responsibility like an adult.
    In the last decades, politics and subsequently governance, have become a "marketplace for pop worldviews" in which politicians can appeal to the lowest common denominator and idiosyncrasies. This hasn't anything to do with infantilism but rather with widespread distrust/disdain in institutions(church, science, media, legislative apparatus, UN....) causing them to be neglected/undermined in the last decades. Individualism as a characteristic of neoliberal economies has aggravated this problem of course
    I rarely feel alone. I rarely talk to anyone, yet in my head i have the most amazing, the most fantastic discussions with the people in my life. In real life, what most people talk about is several orders of magnitude lesser than their inner experiences. Most people never reveal the singularity of their subjective experience.
    Maybe I should learn to explore other people's consciousness. Maybe I should aim for a real space between me and others. Instead of cultivating monologues and fantasies. It's hard, but the alternative to this seems to be madness. ~ lkdhf qkb

    Life is soup. I'm fork


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    https://www.newyorker.com/news/video...-capitol-siege

    the article is also very informative
    Last edited by asd; 01-18-2021 at 12:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    Take over the capitol? The Trump folks didn't do any more than the Kavanaugh protestors did in 2018. They were breaking into Senators offices and etc to protest against Kavanaugh just like the Trump people did in this protest. None of them got shot by the police though, so there's that. And all the media praised them for their bravery and so on rather than calling them terrorists and insurrectionists.
    I have a difficult time seeing this as the same thing. Trump was riling up his base for months about the supposed election fraud and how the election was stolen from him (he began this even before the election). He summoned supporters to Washington DC to "protest" the confirmation that Biden had won the electoral vote. The "protestors" actions, breaking into the capitol and disrupting proceedings were meant to interfere with the confirmation of Biden as the next president, to basically disrupt democracy. This is the most serious offense of all of those you have listed, it is in its own category basically. Some have gone so far as to call it an attempted coup and I can understand why. This is also regardless of how not all (or perhaps even most) of the people who came to protest had any such intentions, nor did all/most of them storm the capitol building, nor were all most/violent (as is true generally, I agree). It also doesn't matter how things have been framed, because this event did happen, and arrests are being made (not by the media). Members of government had to be evacuated for their safety from an increasingly violent mob intent upon disrupting the results of the election. That's just what happened. If they didn't intend to disrupt they would have stayed outside and chanted. They did not. And Trump lit the fuse on this whole thing, imo, clearly on purpose. I furthermore cannot see how people who did this didn't intend to tear down the nation... their destructive actions aimed to do that regardless of how misguided most of them probably were lost in their Trump cult fanaticism.
    Last edited by inumbra; 01-20-2021 at 02:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    I strongly disagree. If anything authoritarianism seems to cater to the infantile-minded. After all, they're looking for a big daddy to tell everyone what to do, rather than taking personal responsibility like an adult.
    Authoritarian or not, Muddy's views are increasingly evident among young people. There's broad support for bigger government among the young, and the likely reason is that the current system hasn't worked for them. I see increasingly more envy of China's progressive industrialism and tighter social contract, whereby the government takes a paternalistic role in uplifting the lives of its citizens.

    That cheaper iPhone doesn't make up for the 1.57 trillion dollars in outstanding student loans; that you live in a country with poor healthcare and poor infrastructure; that your dead-end job doesn't offer a sense of progress; that your future is being gambled with due to inaction on global climate change, and that you'll be forced to accept a lower quality of life as a result.

    It's easy to talk about rugged individualism when your school tuition cost $100; when your well-paying job provides decent health coverage; and when you could have a predictably upwardly-mobile career path straight out of highschool.

    The G.I. generation also embraced bigger government as a solution to the great depression; they helped to create the vast government infrastructure that's currently being torn down. Wanting their lives to be better, and for their country to work well, didn't make them more irresponsible. It certainly didn't make them any more infantile than the current generation in power.
    Last edited by xerxe; 01-21-2021 at 02:34 AM. Reason: fixed a word

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    Near its end, the Soviet Union had a reasonably high quality of life as well. Soviet citizens had access to food and healthcare, a reasonably technologically-advanced society, and a stellar educational system. Many parts of the former Soviet Union are regrettably poorer now than they were under the old regime: there are fewer jobs, fewer services, worse education, and the people are less healthy.

    Right-wing propaganda loves to paint Soviet life as though it consisted of stone-age drudgery. In fact, relative to the rest of the non-Western world — compared to someone living in (say) a sub-Saharan slum — it was a pretty sweet deal.

    None of that mattered to people who envied the better lives of their Western counterparts and hated their governments' notorious corruption. It's not hard to see why they embraced the capitalist promise with radical openness. When the grass really is greener on the other side, telling someone to be content with what they have doesn't work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    I strongly disagree. If anything authoritarianism seems to cater to the infantile-minded. After all, they're looking for a big daddy to tell everyone what to do, rather than taking personal responsibility like an adult.
    I’ve been saying for a long time that we need another Huey Long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe
    1.57 trillion dollars in outstanding student loans
    Which reminds me of something I read recently....

    Student loans have placed enormous burdens on poorer households, especially minorities, who don't have the best employment opportunities, even after graduating. A lot of student debt is held by people who dropped out of college altogether, making their prospects even bleaker. According to the Roosevelt Institute, African Americans are among the worst-affected. link

    I like to follow this progressive economist, who makes the case against student loans. link.

    Being saddled with debt makes it a riskier proposition to start a new business. Student loans have also helped to push up the price of college, since it has allowed colleges to charge more.

    Student loan forgiveness is, however, a tricky subject. Among other things, there's the element of moral hazard — of students taking more loans on purpose, knowing that they'll never have to pay for them. He goes on to argue for better ways to finance higher education.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    Which reminds me of something I read recently....

    Student loans have placed enormous burdens on poorer households, especially minorities, who don't have the best employment opportunities, even after graduating. A lot of student debt is held by people who dropped out of college altogether, making their prospects even bleaker. According to the Roosevelt Institute, African Americans are among the worst-affected. link

    I like to follow this progressive economist, who makes the case against student loans. link.

    Being saddled with debt makes it a riskier proposition to start a new business. Student loans have also helped to push up the price of college, since it has allowed colleges to charge more.

    Student loan forgiveness is, however, a tricky subject. Among other things, there's the element of moral hazard — of students taking more loans on purpose, knowing that they'll never have to pay for them. He goes on to argue for better ways to finance higher education.
    Let's make families pay for High School.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Let's make families pay for High School.
    That's a good joke, but I'd rather take it as a sad commentary on today's politics. Because you just know that someone in some think-tank would love to make it the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    This is some of what happened in DC during Trump's inauguration. Totally normal peaceful stuff :



    And from mainstream, official sanctioned sources since you prefer those:

    https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/19/polit...rch/index.html



    Did 6 people die?

    I'm not suggesting they are peaceful. I am not supporting bringing bricks or hammers.

    I am not saying I support violence.

    Did 6 people die?

    Did the leader of the free world urge these people on?

    Did they storm a building of offices and scream they wanted to hang Mike Pence?

    This isn't the same as what happened this year.

    Some of the same spirit, but not the same tactics and outcomes.
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    That's a good joke, but I'd rather take it as a sad commentary on today's politics. Because you just know that someone in some think-tank would love to make it the case.
    The question is, why is HS free to students but college is not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    The question is, why is HS free to students but college is not?
    this might be relevant to the discourse on '(radical) openness'. education reform is quite something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche View Post
    this might be relevant to the discourse on '(radical) openness'. education reform is quite something.
    Is there a thread on this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Is there a thread on this?
    i don't know if there is a thread on this forum. from a political standpoint you might want to check out sustainability virtues,post-NPM, cognitive capitalism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche View Post
    i don't know if there is a thread on this forum. from a political standpoint you might want to check out sustainability virtues,post-NPM, cognitive capitalism.
    OK, thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    OK, thanks.
    you're welcome. i've gathered a bunch of information i'm happy to share for some reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche View Post
    you're welcome. i've gathered a bunch of information i'm happy to share for some reason.
    Yes, thanks. Please pm me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Yes, thanks. Please pm me.
    Let me know what you'd like to discuss, be it via PM or openly

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche View Post
    Let me know what you'd like to discuss, be it via PM or openly
    OK, give me a day or two. I'm up to my ass in alligators right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I'm up to my ass in alligators right now.
    enjoy

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    I don't actually show up at any sorts of protests.


    I don't show up either. Maybe part of the reason why the world sucks is we're not in it enough. I agree we need more Betas, but Betas probably need to actually be out there instead of working at home with our rpg games or looking up our porn. lol. I think I've learned the hard lesson that if If you don't show up enough, you let other people's prejudices and what they think of you dictate who you are even if that's not what you intend. Gammas will still be horrible, power-hungry and arrogant- but perhaps 'not trying at all' isn't a good solution either.

    To influence change you have to be in there- but no I probably wouldn't be caught dead in the middle of a pack of angry Straight White Morons because it seems too clash-y. I don't really go to gay pride rallies either though of course. I simply don't trust any mobs because people lose their individual freedom and free thought being in a mob but other people give you energy. They get energy from each other, no matter how wrong or moronic they are being. I'm for female rights but I also kind of groan when I hear female co-workers joining 'women's rights rallies' and stuff. It makes me uncomfortable as I don't really trust any identity to do the right thing with my Te PoLR.

    What you're mainly against (as I am I think) is a type of Te authorianism that creates more problems than it solves. That there really isn't much self-awareness with any of these groups- they just want to be the ones that hold the whip. I think maybe I should call them out more about in the moment tho rather than being so quiet about it.

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  34. #114
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    I'm from Belgium.

    Also, I don't think Trump being censored is anything comparable to communist China. First of all, he isn't being censored by government, but by tech platforms, which are private companies that can censor whoever they want. These platforms don't have a free speech clause. The first amendment only deals with government censorship.

    Also, he is getting censored, like I was debating with End in another thread, for inciting a mob - not simply for expressing controversial opinions and such. He has done that for four years and no censorship from the part of these tech platforms. The average person shouldn't fear being censored to the same extent, though I am not denying that cancel culture is a thing, but this isn't about SJWs being offended, it's about Trump, Guiliani, and so forth, inciting a riot. So this isn't at all the same thing that the average person fears. Trump is a master at playing victim, which gets many mainstream Americans to identify with him, but in reality this is just introjection and identification. I'm not suggesting Trump calculates this, but he feels it, and he gets people to pity and sympathize with him even if he's a billionaire who has gotten there by being dishonest no less, and I see decent people relate to him like he's some kind of rich version of themselves. People can identify with who they want, of course, I just find this strange.

    Also, what information do you have that the election was frauded? You're right I don't believe this, because I haven't seen proof, and you're right that if I saw legit proof my mind would change. A lot of conspiracy theorists seem to suggest that the absence of proof is "proof" someone is hiding something - how do I debate that? (not saying you're doing this btw, Eliza) There just isn't any way to convince some people.
    Belgium is beautiful. My brother used to go there regularly for business. Also an ancestor of mine, a sculptor in England, whom I have a book on and collect research about, lived there for a good period (beginning about 1901 he lived there).

    Really it is ridiculous to say that Trump incited a riot. For one, there is no evidence that a single person from his speech made it to the capital for the riot. Basically there wasn't time to get there, therefore evidence is impossible). The speech was not riot-inducing! But Antifa is riot-inducing, and the police escorted them from the Washington train station that day, and also we have photos of known antifa rioters dressed as Trump supporters for that riot, like that baal-dressed one, and others. We also have video evidence of the police LETTING in the protesters, motioning them to hurry and go into the capital! We also see those Trump supporters (who were urged to come inside by police) calmly standing around looking at things, and observing boundaries. That is what I saw, but it is not something the media would have shown you; it's what they hide.

    Do I download and save these videos before they get canceled, to prove to people? No, I don't, because I know God is going to act and God Himself will soon expose all these lies so that everyone knows. So it is not my job. That is why I am not trying to convince anyone here. I understand, you have been fed a huge amount of lies and have been deceived. But God will show the deceit to everyone. I am only sharing these things because most people are not listening to prophets of God, and most people do not realize that God never intervenes and acts in our world without first telling His prophets what is coming. I have been a Christian many years, and so many people praying for justice and peace and so many prophets saying God has heard our prayers, and He will act soon, and in a way that everyone sees, is like nothing I have ever seen in my lifetime. I have never seen so many prophets from so many places saying the SAME thing. So when people are soon surprised when God acts, they can be a little less surprised, and recall, "I heard that Christians everywhere were saying that this would happen".

    I don't know how everyone will know, but I believe the prophets now saying this. I know I did my job to pray for justice, and I know God will act. We know there are sins that God acts on, that make Him intervene mightily in our world, and one of those sins is the shedding of innocent blood. In America we are swimming in a river of innocent blood, and we have been spreading this slaughter throughout the world, and Biden wants it to go even further. God isn't going to let him. God doesn't want him president. He is an illegitiment president. So God is now going to act. He has heard the cries of His people, our prayers that this slaughter be stopped.

    We have not seen Him act yet, but God is assuring the prophets He will act. I will add to recent short excerpts from videos (a prophet I trust) speaking of the huge upset that is going to happen soon, but I will put these to video links in anything goes section of this forum because maybe they will stay up longer that way (vs. in an open subforum with this title). But things get canceled fast! So if you are interested - they are powerful predictions watch them immediately because these things keep getting removed. For example, I did not remove any of the videos in this thread; they got canceled. The prophetic "2 minutes" is really rather awe-inspiring to me. No one wants that anyone should perish and live in eternal damnation,. But getting away with murder, lying and stealing not going to help these people get to Heaven; it is going to push them further away from it. So God's justice is always merciful.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    Did 6 people die?

    I'm not suggesting they are peaceful. I am not supporting bringing bricks or hammers.

    I am not saying I support violence.

    Did 6 people die?

    Did the leader of the free world urge these people on?

    Did they storm a building of offices and scream they wanted to hang Mike Pence?

    This isn't the same as what happened this year.

    Some of the same spirit, but not the same tactics and outcomes.

    If you cared about the truth, you wouldn't be parroting the "6 people died" line. That number is counting officer suicides that happened after the fact. Sadly, officer suicides are a daily occurrence this year, and really shouldn't be included in this number. There were some Trump supporters with medical conditions who died during the rally. And there was a woman shot in the neck by capitol police (Ashli Babbit). None of the Kavanaugh protestors were shot, so using her in this to show how the protests are different only shows how the protestors were treated differently. There also was a police officer who died (Brian Sicknick) and his death is being investigated. As of now nobody knows who was responsible for his death.

    There's truth, and there's narrative. Narrative is driven by partisans, and it helps them to ignore the truth. And I'm talking partisans of all political parties. It's really hard to talk to partisans, regardless of what side they're on. I haven't read the book this link summarizes but it sounds interesting: LINK Here's a quote from it:

    Once partisans had found a way to reason to false conclusions, not only did neural circuits involved in negative emotions turn off, but circuits involved in positive emotions turned on. The partisan brain didn’t seem satisfied in just feeling better. It worked overtime to feel good, activating reward circuits that give partisans a jolt of positive reinforcement for their biased “reasoning.” These reward circuits overlap substantially with those activated when drug addicts get their “fix,” giving new meaning to the term political junkie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    Authoritarian or not, Muddy's views are increasingly evident among young people. There's broad support for bigger government among the young, and the likely reason is that the current system hasn't worked for them. I see increasingly more envy of China's progressive industrialism and tighter social contract, whereby the government takes a paternalistic role in uplifting the lives of its citizens.

    That cheaper iPhone doesn't make up for the 1.57 trillion dollars in outstanding student loans; that you live in a country with poor healthcare and poor infrastructure; that your dead-end job doesn't offer a sense of progress; that your future is being gambled with due to inaction on global climate change, and that you'll be forced to accept a lower quality of life as a result.

    It's easy to talk about rugged individualism when your school tuition cost $100; when your well-paying job provides decent health coverage; and when you could have a predictably upwardly-mobile career path straight out of highschool.

    The G.I. generation also embraced bigger government as a solution to the great depression; they helped to create the vast government infrastructure that's currently being torn down. Wanting their lives to be better, and for their country to work well, didn't make them more irresponsible. It certainly didn't make them any more infantile than the current generation in power.
    Hmm, not sure we're entirely talking about the same thing. When I talk about authoritarianism, I'm going by the dictionary definition "Characterized by or favoring absolute obedience to authority, as against individual freedom." Forming a government program doesn't fit that bill, unless it's mandatory and there's no way to opt out of it. I see authoritarianism as being directly opposed to the Bill of Rights. I see it as an infringement on personal autonomy, creating drones and slaves to a system or person.

    You didn't mention this, but also I do not see having a set of laws that everyone must abide by as authoritarian either, unless those laws are draconian impositions that prevent a person's free exercise of their rights. Laws and limits are necessary for a functional society. Some of those antitrust laws we already have are currently being heard by courts, which is a step in the right direction imo. I'm fine with rule by law if the laws are just. If they are unjust, then we change them. I'm not okay with rule by tyrant or rule by mob, as those both have disastrous results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    If you cared about the truth, you wouldn't be parroting the "6 people died" line. That number is counting officer suicides that happened after the fact. Sadly, officer suicides are a daily occurrence this year, and really shouldn't be included in this number. There were some Trump supporters with medical conditions who died during the rally. And there was a woman shot in the neck by capitol police (Ashli Babbit). None of the Kavanaugh protestors were shot, so using her in this to show how the protests are different only shows how the protestors were treated differently. There also was a police officer who died (Brian Sicknick) and his death is being investigated. As of now nobody knows who was responsible for his death.

    There's truth, and there's narrative. Narrative is driven by partisans, and it helps them to ignore the truth. And I'm talking partisans of all political parties. It's really hard to talk to partisans, regardless of what side they're on. I haven't read the book this link summarizes but it sounds interesting: LINK Here's a quote from it:
    It doesn't logically follow that misunderstanding or mishearing a sixth death somehow connected to the ra-ra! as a death caused during the riot indicates a person 'DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THE TRUTH!'

    That's not how caring about the truth works
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

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    Ксеркс, царь царей xerxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    Hmm, not sure we're entirely talking about the same thing. When I talk about authoritarianism, I'm going by the dictionary definition "Characterized by or favoring absolute obedience to authority, as against individual freedom." Forming a government program doesn't fit that bill, unless it's mandatory and there's no way to opt out of it. I see authoritarianism as being directly opposed to the Bill of Rights. I see it as an infringement on personal autonomy, creating drones and slaves to a system or person.

    You didn't mention this, but also I do not see having a set of laws that everyone must abide by as authoritarian either, unless those laws are draconian impositions that prevent a person's free exercise of their rights. Laws and limits are necessary for a functional society. Some of those antitrust laws we already have are currently being heard by courts, which is a step in the right direction imo. I'm fine with rule by law if the laws are just. If they are unjust, then we change them. I'm not okay with rule by tyrant or rule by mob, as those both have disastrous results.
    I agree that we should break up large corporations.

    It's cartoonishly clear that much attention is paid to governmental predominance, whereas too little is paid to unsought corporate influence over daily life; that is, unless it conflicts with certain political interests, as in the case of social media. Large corporations form an opaque shadow government, and any truly 'Classical Liberal' thesis ought to start with this observation.

    I would personally go further by banning the hereditary transfer of capital. We're quite familiar with the pitfalls of hereditary ownership of political office, even given the fact that politicians worked exceptionally hard to acquire their status, continue to work hard to pass laws, and are 'job creators' in their own right: politicians grease the wheels of bureaucracy for the economic benefits of their constituents, a bureaucracy that exists out of necessity to oversee the conflicting interests of millions of people.

    Yet no one, with the exception of a smattering of monarchists, suggests (at least openly) a scheme to allow the hereditary transfer of political capital. It's scandalous enough that there are political dynasties like the Bushes and the Clintons.
    Last edited by xerxe; 01-31-2021 at 03:34 AM. Reason: whitespace change

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Default Here is a date - Feb.23rd

    I don't know this prophetess and this is the first video I have ever seen of her, but she rings "authentic" to me. I have been hoping to see a date. All I have heard about timing for Trump getting his presidency back is: "January is for justice, February is for fury, and March is for celebration". This is the first date I have heard anyone speak.

    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  40. #120
    Unites the human race! The Internationale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    I agree that we should break up large corporations.

    It's cartoonishly clear that much attention is paid to governmental predominance, whereas too little is paid to unsought corporate influence over daily life; that is, unless it conflicts with certain political interests, as in the case of social media. Large corporations form an opaque shadow government, and any truly 'Classical Liberal' thesis ought to start with this observation.

    I would personally go further by banning the hereditary transfer of capital. We're quite familiar with the pitfalls of hereditary ownership of political office, even given the fact that politicians worked exceptionally hard to acquire their status, continue to work hard to pass laws, and are 'job creators' in their own right: politicians grease the wheels of bureaucracy for the economic benefits of their constituents, a bureaucracy that exists out of necessity to oversee the conflicting interests of millions of people.

    Yet no one, with the exception of a smattering of monarchists, suggests (at least openly) a scheme to allow the hereditary transfer of political capital. It's scandalous enough that there are political dynasties like the Bushes and the Clintons.
    Indeed, Americans equate freedom with capitalism, when really, capitalism only gives freedom to capital-owners. In our society, we check our hard-won civil rights at the door every time we go to work. The private sector owner class are basically private lords who can control and manipulate the lives of their employees (subjects), at their leisure. We need workplace democracy and worker-ownership.

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