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Thread: Instincts vs Duality

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    Smile Instincts vs Duality

    Instincts vs duality, which one has the biggest impact when it comes to your relationships? The thing about Intertype relations is that I don't really feel any differences between the types whatsoever. However, I get along super well with people who share similar instincts. Honestly, I feel like socionics has more to do with value systems and social roles than actual compatibility. If I can get along with certain people, I can accept that they have different values than me if I see where it's coming from instinctually.

    What do you guys think? Would you rather date a conflictor with the same stackings or a dual with opposing ones? Also, it seems to me that subtypes matter a hell lot more than people make it to out to be. I have different rational/irrational preferences depending on the type.

    So based on my preferences:
    Subtypes = 40%
    Instincts = 40%
    Socionics = 20%

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    I assume ppl are mistyped if I was the one typing them or they typed themselves or not a professional gave them their type... which means duality is useless to me and if I can't be sure of the type, subtypes are even less useful.

    It is much easier to recognize eneagram and instinctual subtypes in ppl, but generally I know if I like or will get along well with someone within the first week of meeting them

    Similar with intimate relationships, IF I don't become obsessive & pushy within the first week, it means there is no chemistry, so I don't need the theory of duality for relationships tbh.

    With that said I have not really gotten along with SOCIAL first people tbh. .. I can't meet their demand of being social with them with others :/.. eventually I shut down and withdraw. Its the "lets stay home and fuck" vs "come with me to this social dinner with x!".
    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 10-30-2020 at 06:34 AM.
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    Socionics. I think a true sx/sp can understand me, especially get my reactions, but I havent seen it truly affecting who I talk to irl. Ime most IEEs are So first or second and it's not like me as sx sp was going to wait till find an IEE sx sp to dualize.
    Last edited by Tommy; Yesterday at 01:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Surreal View Post
    Instincts vs duality, which one has the biggest impact when it comes to your relationships? The thing about Intertype relations is that I don't really feel any differences between the types whatsoever. However, I get along super well with people who share similar instincts. Honestly, I feel like socionics has more to do with value systems and social roles than actual compatibility. If I can get along with certain people, I can accept that they have different values than me if I see where it's coming from instinctually.

    What do you guys think? Would you rather date a conflictor with the same stackings or a dual with opposing ones? Also, it seems to me that subtypes matter a hell lot more than people make it to out to be. I have different rational/irrational preferences depending on the type.

    So based on my preferences:
    Subtypes = 40%
    Instincts = 40%
    Socionics = 20%
    Interesting subject.

    I can relate to this. Sometimes it has to do with where you focus your attention on, but I have noticed Instincts matter a lot. I think if you are both part of the contra flow, or both of the synflow, you will go along well. For example I have a friend, conflictor who is also contraflow like me. We get along fine, however there is still the socionics aspect that i notice, i get exhausted really quick by listening, and i notice the same from her side. We do however don't have any conflicts like i had with lesss compatible conflictors.

    As i wrote in my thread about the 4 tendencies, there are 3 major layers in relationship dynamics.
    1) socionics and subtypes, how you see the world and deal with it. hobbies preferences etc 50%
    2) instincs/flow, your life path/direction. 30%
    3) tendencies (gretchen rubin), your role in a relationship. 20%

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    I like this topic. For me instincts/flow always seem to come first in terms of attraction, wanting to be in someone's life, and staying power/interest in the relationship whether romantic or platonic. Where a person chooses to focus their attention and energy is a big deal for me, even if their sociotype isn't considered favorable or I have to work harder to understand their cognition.

    DCNH also seems to matter a lot in dating, as I'd say I definitely prefer a Dominant to my Normalizing. The synergy is better. I'd rate sociotype as second in importance and enneagram least important.
    Last edited by Emily; 11-07-2020 at 09:51 PM.

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    Instinct = Enneagram type. There is no separation.
    "Flows" don't exist.


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    Complementarity. That's all I care about
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samson View Post
    Instinct = Enneagram type. There is no separation.
    "Flows" don't exist.
    this is a different theory than i know.

    Flows seem very important, i feel most comfortable with the contraflow instincts. also as far as i am concerned instincts work nicely without enneagram.

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    I suppose in short term those are more important. Then you get bored and hell may break loose.

    I do not really enjoy immediate contact dimensions which seems to deal with that. Some people are thrilled over it, I know.
    Last edited by Comatose Lamiac 007; 11-04-2020 at 05:50 AM.
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    You can say this and then dive head first into this so deep til the point where you start considering it's something else and not instincts, like alot of people do with duality.

    When my creative hit's someone's mobilizing or suggestive that's usually when I feel the initial "chemistry", I feel valued and like the person likes who I am , not who I am pretending to be or whatever. Even with people I don't find attractive, if the respond to my creative, I feel the chemistry, sx/so/sp all the like, as long as my creative is landing somewhere in them I will feel it. And it's funny because that's exactly how Gulenko describes my type's way of building attraction in the romance styles. With duality they seem to be more receptive to my creative in a more ideal way than other types and that's why it stands out to me than other IRs, and there's other stuff going on that's harder to see, maybe stuff with the leading and demo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    this is a different theory than i know.

    Flows seem very important, i feel most comfortable with the contraflow instincts. also as far as i am concerned instincts work nicely without enneagram.
    "Flows" were theorized by a forum user but has never been properly researched. That's why there is virtually no information on it. It has the same value as sub-wings and other such random ideas: zero.

    Instinct theory is different in that it is properly backed by Enneagram authorities. It, however, goes against what has been formulated by Ichazo, who is one of the original sources for contemporary Enneagram. The types themselves are, on the lower levels, instinctive responses of the ego. Instinct is not separate from type.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Samson View Post
    "Flows" were theorized by a forum user but has never been properly researched. That's why there is virtually no information on it. It has the same value as sub-wings and other such random ideas: zero.

    Instinct theory is different in that it is properly backed by Enneagram authorities. It, however, goes against what has been formulated by Ichazo, who is one of the original sources for contemporary Enneagram. The types themselves are, on the lower levels, instinctive responses of the ego. Instinct is not separate from type.
    Why do you need information on it. Go out of your house, meet people figure out their instinct and notice how you feel around them. You'll notice synflow and contraflow are two opposite tribes. One you will feel at home, the other feels akward and difficult.

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    For long term romantic relationships (not just chemistry)..I think I would prefer different stackings for different types. For dual: sp/so or so/sx..although haven’t met too many duals. Maybe sx/so too.

    I think for lookalike sp/so might work.. but sx/so for comparative or semi dual(?)..and same stacks for mirage..maybe same stack for supervision/super ego. Something like that..

    I think I have noticed a few mirror pairs with same stacks and also activity pairs who were in the same flow.

    I met a dual once who I believe was sp/sx 739 to my 946 so/sx. Hottest, coolest guy I ever met- but doubt it would have worked long term. He seemed very drawn to me though. I think it’s partly coz we have 4/3 sx in the middle of our stack

    I think tritype similarity/compatibility is important too

    Also I think relationships in quadra seem good for family life!

    Same flow seems good in general but I think I might prefer sx/so to sx/sp so possibly sx/so could be ok out of the contra flow stacks
    Last edited by BethanyR; 11-05-2020 at 11:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Why do you need information on it. Go out of your house, meet people figure out their instinct and notice how you feel around them. You'll notice synflow and contraflow are two opposite tribes. One you will feel at home, the other feels akward and difficult.
    How you "feel" about them? Lol, thanks for proving my point. Like I said, there is zero basis for "flows." Nothing but feelsies but no substantiated model.


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    Hmm it’s just that they seem more on your wave length..it’s hard to describe. Basically syn flow seem a bit calmer? To put it really simply..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Surreal View Post
    The thing about Intertype relations is that I don't really feel any differences between the types whatsoever.
    to notice IR needs:
    1) to understand the theory of supplementary functions
    2) correct types

    there is my IR test which may help to understand how people with differing types are perceived differently by you
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samson View Post
    How you "feel" about them? Lol, thanks for proving my point. Like I said, there is zero basis for "flows." Nothing but feelsies but no substantiated model.
    The whole socionics model is based on how people feel with eachother.

    If you have 100 people describe the feeling they have with their dual in the same way, you have your information. How else do you want to get information besides feeling the relationship?? After that, you can start to form a model of what happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bethanyrose View Post
    Hmm it’s just that they seem more on your wave length..it’s hard to describe. Basically syn flow seem a bit calmer? To put it really simply..
    Yeah you resonate more on the same wavelength.

    Yep synflow is less against society or people as contraflow. although this is oversimplified ofcourse.

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    And it’s not easy to spot people’s instincts but when you know people well you can. And you start to observe differences between the flows. It’s interesting talking to contraflow people but I do notice a bit more tension when interacting with them. Their personalities are a bit more ‘fiery’? Could probs say more but not sure how much sense it’d make ha.

    Honestly I couldn’t see myself settling down with a contra flow person. I don’t think I’d want to date so/sp or sp/sx even with a dual. I think interaction would be ultimately be stressful. And they’d probably feel the same about me! Good for friends of course.

    The stacks are pretty weird..but I think I see enough evidence that I believe they exist. Some of the stuff written about them is contradictory though so that makes it hard to type people.
    Last edited by BethanyR; 11-06-2020 at 11:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    The whole socionics model is based on how people feel with eachother.

    If you have 100 people describe the feeling they have with their dual in the same way, you have your information. How else do you want to get information besides feeling the relationship?? After that, you can start to form a model of what happened.
    That's completely backwards. The model of Socionics is based on cognition first, relations second.

    Besides, I'm speaking about the "flows." Use it as much as you'd like, just know it has nothing to do with the Enneagram.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Samson View Post

    Besides, I'm speaking about the "flows." Use it as much as you'd like, just know it has nothing to do with the Enneagram.
    I agree with this :-) For me instincts and flows work fine without enneagram.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    I agree with this :-) For me instincts and flows work fine without enneagram.
    You misunderstand. The instincts are the Enneagram. They are inherent to its core structure.

    The "flows" have nothing to do with the Enneagram.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Surreal View Post
    Instincts vs duality, which one has the biggest impact when it comes to your relationships? The thing about Intertype relations is that I don't really feel any differences between the types whatsoever. However, I get along super well with people who share similar instincts. Honestly, I feel like socionics has more to do with value systems and social roles than actual compatibility. If I can get along with certain people, I can accept that they have different values than me if I see where it's coming from instinctually.

    What do you guys think? Would you rather date a conflictor with the same stackings or a dual with opposing ones? %
    It’s a really interesting question. I get confused about my compatibility with same stacking. (My best friends are not same stacking as me..maybe an so/sx thing I dunno). I have met a dual in the past I think was 7 so/sx. He didn’t make the best first impression (duals of other stacks made better first impression) but on reflection..he was rather nice.

    So I think same stack is probs best..I’m not sure what sociotype I’d go for after a dual. (I feel like if I met an istp and I mentioned socionics to them they would run away to find an enfp lol). So maybe I’d go for activity or mirror or ISFp. I think mirror with same stacks seems nice..I crushed hard recently on an ISFp with same stacks which didn’t work out (too much miscommunication-again is this a double so/sx thing?).

    In another thread I was pondering if I met an sp/so dual who had a similar tritype to me- this might be enough to make me like them. So if I had to choose (or if I was lucky enough to choose) between sp/so dual and so/sx mirror/super ego..well I’d probs go for the dual! A highly compatible super ego would be tempting though

    as for opposite flow..I met an sx/so once (tritype 738)..fun guy but definitely incompatible tritype. Not sure if sx/so would work in reality.

    Something tells me (and I could be wrong..)- having 9 in their tritype is important for me. Have met 712 sp/so dual who was fab..but something is telling me that 9 is important..

    edit: ok I’m also wondering if subtype matters too..there must be people of same tritype/sociotype but with different subtype :s
    Last edited by BethanyR; 11-08-2020 at 01:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samson View Post
    You misunderstand. The instincts are the Enneagram. They are inherent to its core structure.

    The "flows" have nothing to do with the Enneagram.
    nah you can use instincts seperately, but i don't think it has much use in discussion, we see things way differently.

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    Duality certainly isn't key to the success of a relationship, but maturity and a lack of intolerable personal baggage is. Instincts can easily be fooled by those assailing one's weak side so it's essential that one pay attention to people's actions (when they think that you're not looking) - stay objective for a substantial period of time. Type, by itself, isn't a good predictor of successful working relationships although it's a descent tool for estimating someone's likely strategies/tactics, priorities and perspectives with respect to specific goals. Relationships seem to break down when people don't have the same goals or when people get territorial. Type can often predict how conflict will likely proceed if it happens but it's not that accurate a determining whether or not conflict will actually happen because peaceful coexistence depends on so many other factors.

    a.k.a. I/O
    Last edited by Rebelondeck; 11-12-2020 at 01:37 PM. Reason: grammar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    nah you can use instincts seperately, but i don't think it has much use in discussion, we see things way differently.
    We definitely see things differently. The difference comes in that I can argue my case.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Duality certainly isn't key to the success of a relationship, but maturity and a lack of intolerable personal baggage is. Instincts can easily be fooled by those assailing one's weak side so it's essential that one pay attention to people's actions (when they think that your not looking) - stay objective for a substantial period of time.
    Sensible to keep in mind yes, absolutely (and easy to forget when your obsessing over typology..) But you do know we're talking about enneagram instinctual stacks?

    The instinct theories seem useful in understanding why you can feel extremely attracted to someone (who might not be good for you) so they can be useful to know about. For me, a combination of socionics and enneagram knowledge is useful (I agree with lots of the observations you make on this site but I don't have the ability to make those observations myself or the wisdom!).

    Ennegram knowledge (not just the instincts but tritype as well) helps me fine tune my understanding of socionics..meaning I can make more helpful observations myself. And having a clearer idea of why someone acts the way they do can help you get away from them quicker if you need to but don't feel able to.

    Also I'm not saying you're criticising enneagram, just continuing discussion..

    As a rule, yes, judge by actions- I have learnt the hard way not to assume someone will start being 'nicer' if you give them the benefit of the doubt..some people need you to have a discussion/even an argument with them to realise that they have been doing something wrong or to at least get them to consider a different way of behaving (i have isfp in mind..no offense to other isfp) These problems can be to do with sociotype/ enneagram type but they can also just be to do with maturity/ 'baggage' as you call it.

    For example, with the guy I last had problems with, reading about typology helped me to see how he ended up behaving the way he did...but it is probably due to his previous recent break up/ also being younger than me, and my own baggage that the situation was quite so challenging and ridiculous.....

    I can also understand better why I was drawn to him and don't feel so silly about it now.

    Sorry for going on bout my 'baggage' lol
    Last edited by BethanyR; 11-08-2020 at 07:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bethanyrose View Post
    ....But you do know we're talking about enneagram instinctual stacks? ....
    Yes but I prefer to treat them as figments of someone's imagination and talk only about the aspects that make sense to me. You might have noted in other posts that I treat Socionics modelling similarly.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Surreal View Post
    Instincts vs duality, which one has the biggest impact when it comes to your relationships? The thing about Intertype relations is that I don't really feel any differences between the types whatsoever. However, I get along super well with people who share similar instincts. Honestly, I feel like socionics has more to do with value systems and social roles than actual compatibility. If I can get along with certain people, I can accept that they have different values than me if I see where it's coming from instinctually.

    What do you guys think? Would you rather date a conflictor with the same stackings or a dual with opposing ones? Also, it seems to me that subtypes matter a hell lot more than people make it to out to be. I have different rational/irrational preferences depending on the type.

    So based on my preferences:
    Subtypes = 40%
    Instincts = 40%
    Socionics = 20%

    I think this is something very important to consider..

    Recently I’ve been thinking that it is important to be the same instinct flow as your partner (both contra flow or both syn flow). Let’s say this is for marriage/long term..

    let’s say you met a compatible dual who is not the same instinct as you but is in the same flow, how suited would they be to you? I guess they would suit you reasonably well. But would they suit you any better than a person who is not a dual yet is a highly compatible personality of another type and has the same stacks as you..

    Is the dual still better I wonder?

    Soz kind of repeating your words Surreal..but I do think it’s a key question to ask ourselves

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    I think tritype should be considered in compatibility. Not sure how yet..maybe their tritype needs to compliment yours..some similarity..but not too similar..

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    Quote Originally Posted by BethanyR View Post

    let’s say you met a compatible dual who is not the same instinct as you but is in the same flow, how suited would they be to you? I guess they would suit you reasonably well. But would they suit you any better than a person who is not a dual yet is a highly compatible personality of another type and has the same stacks as you..

    Is the dual still better I wonder?
    I tend to solve this by accepting we can have several feelings at the same time with someone.

    It is a well known fact in the socionics community that a not all duals become partners. The wrong instinct flow is likely the cause of this.

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