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Thread: Save the Earth and Live Sustainably - End Vegetarianism Now!

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Default Save the Earth and Live Sustainably - End Vegetarianism Now!

    This fits here in this sub forum becasue it pretty much covers all the topics: philosophy, politics, economics, science, religion. Yes, even the last, because I see vegetarianism as being akin to a false religion.

    Lierre Keith says it best in her amazing book, The Vegetarian Myth. Yes, it is a myth. All the reasons most people are vegetarianism are inmost every case based on falsehoods, myths, or outright lies. Vegetarian is not a sustainable lifestyle, and it is bad for our earth.

    Sadly vegetarians are most often altruistically ruining their heath with this because they want to save the earth and live sustainable. That is what Lierre Keith liked best about being a vegetarian. Also it was her deep personal identity. It was extremely difficult to leave it. She says, "The moment you're 'in' [vegetarianism], it's really hard to get back out."

    But she did. Once she realized that all the high ideals she was living for weren't true, she was willing to get out of it and follow truth. At a cost. Because as a 20 year vegan, this was an honored place to be among her vegan peers, as a vegan is the loftiest kind of vegetarian, to be admired. But she was willing to leave her lofty place for the truth.

    Here is an interview where she tells her story of conversation. I like Lierre becasue she is an altruistic idealist who is wiling to live for what she believes in. Also she is a reluctant convert from a world she loved, just as I was a reluctant convert from a world I loved, Evangeli9cal Christianity, to Catholicism. Like her, I went to a strange new world because truth was there, not because I wanted to. Also I admire a fearless crusader, and vegetarians can be pretty militant, she riles them and takes a beating for speaking the truth. i do admire that.

    @Adam Strange, I think you will like Lierre Keith because she speaks the same language as you do sometimes with your millions of years old evolution thing. Also there is good solid science, and talk of global warming. If you are in this thing for sustainability, then here are the reasons for conversion. (Besides better health, immediately).

    Her book was SO compelling, but here is a short version for those who prefer it, in an interview of less than 30 minutes:



    However she has SO MUCH good stuff to say that I suggest this 1 hour, 30 minute interview, at least check otu the first 10 minutes. It's compelling!:

    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    .


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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Default Life after the Vegetarian Myth - inerview with Lierre Keith

    This is interesting, too! Lots more on sustainability and the really bad politics of vegetarianism:

    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    Eating less meat is generally more environmentally sustainable and healthier for you if done properly.

    I suggest those who are interested in this subject area read the following paper along with its appendix: Foods and Dietary Patterns That Are Healthy, Low-Cost, and Environmentally Sustainable: A Case Study of Optimization Modeling for New Zealand

    That does include some meat in some of its diets.

    I've investigated nutrition to some degree recently and I have noted that meat generally is very nutrient poor and with practically no fibre while being high in calories. While with fruit and veg etc. they are generally better all round.

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    Encouraging people to have fewer children, especially in wealthy countries that are responsible for more than fair share of damage to the environment (directly and indirectly via importing their consumer products from countries with poor environmental protections) would certainly help humanity to live more sustainably. Unfortunately many feel they have a God-given right to be fecklessly fecund.

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Eating less meat is generally more environmentally sustainable and healthier for you if done properly.

    I suggest those who are interested in this subject area read the following paper along with its appendix: Foods and Dietary Patterns That Are Healthy, Low-Cost, and Environmentally Sustainable: A Case Study of Optimization Modeling for New Zealand

    That does include some meat in some of its diets.

    I've investigated nutrition to some degree recently and I have noted that meat generally is very nutrient poor and with practically no fibre while being high in calories. While with fruit and veg etc. they are generally better all round.
    Well, read widely about nutrition. There are many opinions. I am dubious about any diet recommendations that "include some meat for some of it's diets". I would be interested if it "strongly recommends animal fats and grass fed meat". Or, "raw dairy". Or "avoid grains". That would be healthy, and sustainable, and good for the planet. Without that, it seems to me more of the same, usual, typical bad advice.

    The nutrients in meat are extremely bioavailable. Unlike the nutrients in seeds and grains.

    If a person has ruined their health with vegetarianism or veganism their body might not be able to handle grains any more and they will need to eat no grains and primarily meat and veggies. Which is also a very healing diet for many aliments. Like Alzheimer's, Dementia, Autism, Diabetes, and lots more.

    I read a very interesting series of articles on why fiber is NOT good for you. Why the wisdom of past generations of all cultures, peeling apples for the children for example, may have the best way to go. Its something to look into.

    It influenced me, and also Keto influenced me, and I am about to get back on it because I have been resting on my laurels. I felt great from it last year and it is time to get back into it. My energy was more consistent than it is now.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Well, read widely about nutrition. There are many opinions. I am dubious about any diet recommendations that "include some meat for some of it's diets". I would be interested if it "strongly recommends animal fats and grass fed meat". Or, "raw dairy". Or "avoid grains". That would be healthy, and sustainable, and good for the planet. Without that, it seems to me more of the same, usual, typical bad advice.

    The nutrients in meat are extremely bioavailable. Unlike the nutrients in seeds and grains.

    If a person has ruined their health with vegetarianism or veganism their body might not be able to handle grains any more and they will need to eat no grains and primarily meat and veggies. Which is also a very healing diet for many aliments. Like Alzheimer's, Dementia, Autism, Diabetes, and lots more.

    I read a very interesting series of articles on why fiber is NOT good for you. Why the wisdom of past generations of all cultures, peeling apples for the children for example, may have the best way to go. Its something to look into.

    It influenced me, and also Keto influenced me, and I am about to get back on it because I have been resting on my laurels. I felt great from it last year and it is time to get back into it. My energy was more consistent than it is now.
    You are suspicious of science so I don't trust what you say.

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Encouraging people to have fewer children, especially in wealthy countries that are responsible for more than fair share of damage to the environment (directly and indirectly via importing their consumer products from countries with poor environmental protections) would certainly help humanity to live more sustainably. Unfortunately many feel they have a God-given right to be fecklessly fecund.
    Well that is all about the message of today's culture. Fear overpopulation, disparage large families.

    Yet God said:

    "27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created him; male and female created them.

    28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." -Genesis 1
    .
    .


    He said it, and He changeth not. God is the same, yesterday, today and always. All His words are eternal truths.

    But in these days we think we know better than God. It's like we think we are gods. God's will, to us, does not seem reasonable. We have it figured out better.

    They say the entire worlds population can stand shoulder to shoulder in one Florida city. Or, everyone has their own acre in Alabama. I am not sure but something like that. But whenever I hear these stats it is always surprising, to think of all those people in one small little part of our country, and all those other vast counties in the world - just empty. Just like it is surprising to fly over pretty much any country and see so much vast emptiness. But we are told to fear overpopulation, that people are our worst enemy, so we puzzle since this doesn't seem to fit. But these guys have science degrees, so, they must be right.

    In the New Era, that time on earth after these times, when the Lord's Prayer, that we have prayed for two millennium, is finally answered, when the will of God will be done on earth as it is in Heaven, and Jesus, Lord will reign as King in the hearts of mankind - in that coming day, everything, all of nature, will be different. The current prince of this world will be banished, or restrained and sin will no longer reign like we see today. It will be so much different that "The wolf shall dwell with the lamb: and the leopard shall lie down with the kid: the calf and the lion, and the sheep shall abide together, and a little child shall lead them." Yes.

    And also we are told that in those centuries of the new time, the WHOLE EARTH will become populated. Like it never has before! And it will all be beautiful!

    Yes, God has a plan for how things should be, and some of us will see that new day.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Eliza, do you make anything of the fact that humanity wasn't permitted to eat meat until after the Flood? According to the Bible, vegetarianism was God's original plan for humanity. Though, apparently, he was willing to concede this point to a sinful humanity, so perhaps this word in particular wasn't an eternal truth.

    Also, I don't think, for some reason, that peeling apples for children was anywhere close to ubiquitous in many cultures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Well that is all about the message of today's culture. Fear overpopulation, disparage large families.

    Yet God said:

    "27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created him; male and female created them.

    28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." -Genesis 1
    .
    .


    He said it, and He changeth not. God is the same, yesterday, today and always. All His words are eternal truths.

    But in these days we think we know better than God. It's like we think we are gods. God's will, to us, does not seem reasonable. We have it figured out better.

    They say the entire worlds population can stand shoulder to shoulder in one Florida city. Or, everyone has their own acre in Alabama. I am not sure but something like that. But whenever I hear these stats it is always surprising, to think of all those people in one small little part of our country, and all those other vast counties in the world - just empty. Just like it is surprising to fly over pretty much any country and see so much vast emptiness. But we are told to fear overpopulation, that people are our worst enemy, so we puzzle since this doesn't seem to fit. But these guys have science degrees, so, they must be right.

    In the New Era, that time on earth after these times, when the Lord's Prayer, that we have prayed for two millennium, is finally answered, when the will of God will be done on earth as it is in Heaven, and Jesus, Lord will reign as King in the hearts of mankind - in that coming day, everything, all of nature, will be different. The current prince of this world will be banished, or restrained and sin will no longer reign like we see today. It will be so much different that "The wolf shall dwell with the lamb: and the leopard shall lie down with the kid: the calf and the lion, and the sheep shall abide together, and a little child shall lead them." Yes.

    And also we are told that in those centuries of the new time, the WHOLE EARTH will become populated. Like it never has before! And it will all be beautiful!

    Yes, God has a plan for how things should be, and some of us will see that new day.
    https://www.footprintnetwork.org/our...cal-footprint/

    The world’s ecological deficit is referred to as global ecological overshoot. Since the 1970s, humanity has been in ecological overshoot, with annual demand on resources exceeding what Earth can regenerate each year. Today humanity uses the equivalent of 1.6 Earths to provide the resources we use and absorb our waste. This means it now takes the Earth one year and eight months to regenerate what we use in a year. We use more ecological resources and services than nature can regenerate through overfishing, overharvesting forests, and emitting more carbon dioxide into the atmosphere than forests can sequester.
    Humans simply are not living as good guardians of nature right now. This will not be helped if the human population reaches 9, 10, 11, 12 billion or more by 2100 as has been predicted while not significantly improving sustainability, the situation will only get worse. Large families themselves are not the primary issue - the primary issue is the unsustainable lifestyle of so-called developed countries in the current moment. I am hopeful that we will be able to live within our means some day however.

    If you wish to "replenish" the Earth, why do you not care when it is being degraded?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    https://www.footprintnetwork.org/our...cal-footprint/



    Humans simply are not living as good guardians of nature right now. This will not be helped if the human population reaches 9, 10, 11, 12 billion or more by 2100 as has been predicted while not significantly improving sustainability, the situation will only get worse. Large families themselves are not the primary issue - the primary issue is the unsustainable lifestyle of so-called developed countries in the current moment. I am hopeful that we will be able to live within our means some day however.

    If you wish to "replenish" the Earth, why do you not care when it is being degraded?
    I like my plumbing, electricity & wifi, but I do permaculture already. In case ppl don't know what that is: https://www.permaculturenews.org/what-is-permaculture/
    The buck stops at not having offspring and bs like that. Y'all can do that if you wish, our family legacy will be spread,come hell or high water. I won;t let some filthy middle class westerner dictate wtf I on the other side of the planet can and can't do haha.
    LSI-H - - Melancholy|Sanguine - 6w5-8-4 Sp - LFVE MBTI ISTP
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    When all beauty is tarnished, when all thought is profaned
    They'll cry out for men to invoke the iron rods again
    Now this our secret flame will illuminate the night
    And its sparks fly on the wind and set the world alight


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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    I like my plumbing, electricity & wifi, but I do permaculture already. In case ppl don't know what that is: https://www.permaculturenews.org/what-is-permaculture/
    The buck stops at not having offspring and bs like that. Y'all can do that if you wish, our family legacy will be spread,come hell or high water. I won;t let some filthy middle class westerner dictate wtf I on the other side of the planet can and can't do haha.
    Oh, I almost certainly live beyond my "share" of the Earth's means myself.

    But if we do not even accept that this is a problem, then future generations are going to suffer a grim fate.

    Personally, it would be easier for me to live sustainably if I was not unduly impoverished (whether economically or in terms of lifestyle) compared to others in society. Governments should be far more aggressively tackling the problem so that it is a group effort.

    I feel like I COULD make changes to my lifestyle now, at a cost. But alternatively, if I manage and invest money wisely throughout my lifetime while trying to make changes that do not unduly reduce my enjoyment of life, then should I die, I would be able to use my cash to benefit causes that would best reduce the environmental impact. The one unknown in these considerations however is that we may reach irreversible tipping points before my demise that greatly outweigh the benefit of my lifetime compound returns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    You are suspicious of science so I don't trust what you say.
    I like true science. A lot of it is theory. So I trust it when it is tested, or the scientist is.

    I am a fan of Tesla. Einstein not so much.





    Like that.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    https://www.footprintnetwork.org/our...cal-footprint/



    Humans simply are not living as good guardians of nature right now. This will not be helped if the human population reaches 9, 10, 11, 12 billion or more by 2100 as has been predicted while not significantly improving sustainability, the situation will only get worse. Large families themselves are not the primary issue - the primary issue is the unsustainable lifestyle of so-called developed countries in the current moment. I am hopeful that we will be able to live within our means some day however.

    If you wish to "replenish" the Earth, why do you not care when it is being degraded?
    It is not MY idea to replenish the earth. It's God's.

    We have so much room. Maybe some of the millions of babies we killed off would have had great minds and great solutions for proper use of the earth, which was made for us to use, to help us, and for us to care for. mankind has lost so much in those deaths, because God had a plan for each and every soul, for the good of all. We all lose, with every baby killed.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Does that lady talk about cow farts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I like true science. A lot of it is theory. So I trust it when it is tested, or the scientist is.

    I am a fan of Tesla. Einstein not so much.





    Like that.
    Science involves the observation of nature to establish knowledge. Tesla is entitled to his opinion. If you can disprove General Relativity, please do so.

    In science, everything is theory because our ability to observe can not be absolute. But theories are based on observation and thus should correspond to reality. If they don't, they are disproved and discarded.

    If you don't base your opinion on observation, then what you say has literally no substance whatsoever. Religious people on the whole value faith over observation, sadly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    It is not MY idea to replenish the earth. It's God's.

    We have so much room. Maybe some of the millions of babies we killed off would have had great minds and great solutions for proper use of the earth, which was made for us to use, to help us, and for us to care for. mankind has lost so much in those deaths, because God had a plan for each and every soul, for the good of all. We all lose, with every baby killed.
    Can you give an unique observable property of "God" that is observable? Otherwise I have no reason to believe that you get your ideology from superstitious men from thousands of years ago who thought that Thunder and Lightning was "God" being angry with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Can you give an unique observable property of "God" that is observable? Otherwise I have no reason to believe that you get your ideology from superstitious men from thousands of years ago who thought that Thunder and Lightning was "God" being angry with them.
    You want me to prove to you that God exists. I don't believe you don't know it or that you want to know he exists.

    The will is powerful. It is a gift of God, and we are free to use it for our ill or for our good.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    You want me to prove to you that God exists. I don't believe you don't know it or that you want to know he exists.

    The will is powerful. It is a gift of God, and we are free to use it for our ill or for our good.
    I don't want you to prove it. I'm just asking you to give an unique property of "God" that is observable.

    You seem to think that belief is a virtue.

    edit: I don't want you to prove "God" simply because I already know that you would be unable to do so if you cannot give an unique property that is observable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    The will is powerful. It is a gift of God, and we are free to use it for our ill or for our good.

    “Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.” ― Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Science involves the observation of nature to establish knowledge.
    Agreed! That is excellent science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    ....If you can disprove General Relativity, please do so.
    Apparently, in order to do so, you must outdo Einstein's "magnificent mathematical garb!" Alas, maths is not my thing...,.

    However, I actually know someone who took it on. Apparently, as Tesla would say, it does take a real mathematician. My next door neighbor in TX (where I lived as a newlywed, working at the university to put my then-husband through college) was a retired mathematician and university math professor, who published his own science journal from a printing press in his garage, where he also did experiments. He came over very excitedly one evening to exclaim to us that he had disproved Einstein's theory of relativity! He showed us (it involved the flicker of a light is all I can tell you), and told us, but I had no comprehension... Dr.M. was a great neighbor, unique and interesting and I really enjoyed him. He was homeschooled back when that was rare (they called it tutoring; he was an only child with his parents as his teachers). So much energy at his age, and so much life in him. He had many interests, he was a good neighbor and humorously cranky, and he was dear to my heart. Someone made a nice Wikipedia entry of him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    ... If you don't base your opinion on observation, then what you say has literally no substance whatsoever.
    This is real science, but you don't get real science everywhere you hear "science", that's for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Religious people on the whole value faith over observation, sadly.
    I don't think you know very many religious people.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Agreed! That is excellent science.

    Apparently, in order to do so, you must outdo Einstein's "magnificent mathematical garb!" Alas, maths is not my thing...,.

    However, I actually know someone who took it on. Apparently, as Tesla would say, it does take a real mathematician. My next door neighbor in TX (where I lived as a newlywed, working at the university to put my then-husband through college) was a retired mathematician and university math professor, who published his own science journal from a printing press in his garage, where he also did experiments. He came over very excitedly one evening to exclaim to us that he had disproved Einstein's theory of relativity! He showed us (it involved the flicker of a light is all I can tell you), and told us, but I had no comprehension... Dr.M. was a great neighbor, unique and interesting and I really enjoyed him. He was homeschooled back when that was rare (they called it tutoring; he was an only child with his parents as his teachers). So much energy at his age, and so much life in him. He had many interests, he was a good neighbor and humorously cranky, and he was dear to my heart. Someone made a nice Wikipedia entry of him.

    This is real science, but you don't get real science everywhere you hear "science", that's for sure.

    I don't think you know very many religious people.
    If you value observation over faith it hasn't been readily apparent to me.

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I don't want you to prove it. I'm just asking you to give an unique property of "God" that is observable.

    You seem to think that belief is a virtue.

    edit: I don't want you to prove "God" simply because I already know that you would be unable to do so if you cannot give an unique property that is observable.
    I have not seen God, but I believe. By the grace of God, I will stake my life on it, if He wills that for me. But there are so many, many that have done just that, and there always will be those who would rather die than renounce their faith. The blood of the martyrs is the fertile ground from which faith grows.

    John 20:29 "Jesus saith unto him, 'Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.'"

    Yes, they are blessed. Faith is a precious gift. It is the best thing about my life. My greatest treasure.

    And yes - faith is a virtue. Mankind has traditionally recognized it as one of the three greatest virtues.

    Corinthians 13: 13 - "And now abideth faith, hope, charity*, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." *[Caritas: the altruistic love]

    Yes, love is the greatest. And God is love.


    Can you give a property of love that is observable?
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I have not seen God, but I believe. By the grace of God, I will stake my life on it, if He wills that for me. But there are so many, many that have done just that, and there always will be those who would rather die than renounce their faith. The blood of the martyrs is the fertile ground from which faith grows.

    John 20:29 "Jesus saith unto him, 'Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.'"

    Yes, they are blessed. Faith is a precious gift. It is the best thing about my life. My greatest treasure.

    And yes - faith is a virtue. Mankind has traditionally recognized it as one of the three greatest virtues.

    Corinthians 13: 13 - "And now abideth faith, hope, charity*, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." *[Caritas: the altruistic love]

    Yes, love is the greatest. And God is love.


    Can you give a property of love that is observable?
    To paraphrase Bertrand Russell: “I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong.”

    I can define "Love" as a concept that has a tangible physiological effect, for example, elevated oxytocin levels when in the company of those I consider my "loved" ones.

    You quote the Gospels regarding "Doubting Thomas" - Thomas was criticised for wanting evidence - the people who were blessed were those who believed without evidence. You're only confirming my earlier observation that "Religious people on the whole value faith over observation, sadly."

    If you believe something without evidence, it is no more rational for you to believe in the existence of Yahweh then in Allah or Moroni or Zeus or Albus Dumbledore. Believing in Dumbledore is actually more rational if you believe that Yahweh has no physical manifestation.

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    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Well that is all about the message of today's culture. Fear overpopulation, disparage large families.

    Yet God said:

    "27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created him; male and female created them.

    28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." -Genesis 1
    .
    .


    He said it, and He changeth not. God is the same, yesterday, today and always. All His words are eternal truths.

    But in these days we think we know better than God. It's like we think we are gods. God's will, to us, does not seem reasonable. We have it figured out better.

    They say the entire worlds population can stand shoulder to shoulder in one Florida city. Or, everyone has their own acre in Alabama. I am not sure but something like that. But whenever I hear these stats it is always surprising, to think of all those people in one small little part of our country, and all those other vast counties in the world - just empty. Just like it is surprising to fly over pretty much any country and see so much vast emptiness. But we are told to fear overpopulation, that people are our worst enemy, so we puzzle since this doesn't seem to fit. But these guys have science degrees, so, they must be right.

    In the New Era, that time on earth after these times, when the Lord's Prayer, that we have prayed for two millennium, is finally answered, when the will of God will be done on earth as it is in Heaven, and Jesus, Lord will reign as King in the hearts of mankind - in that coming day, everything, all of nature, will be different. The current prince of this world will be banished, or restrained and sin will no longer reign like we see today. It will be so much different that "The wolf shall dwell with the lamb: and the leopard shall lie down with the kid: the calf and the lion, and the sheep shall abide together, and a little child shall lead them." Yes.

    And also we are told that in those centuries of the new time, the WHOLE EARTH will become populated. Like it never has before! And it will all be beautiful!

    Yes, God has a plan for how things should be, and some of us will see that new day.
    Complex societies gave birth to big gods, not the other way around


    “The Ethiops say that their gods are flat-nosed and black,
    While the Thracians say that theirs have blue eyes and red hair.
    Yet if cattle or horses or lions had hands and could draw,
    And could sculpt like men, then the horses would draw their gods
    Like horses, and cattle like cattle; and each they would shape
    Bodies of gods in the likeness, each kind, of their own.”

    ― Xenophanes

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