Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 52

Thread: Derail: Pro-life religious debate

  1. #1
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    eastern U.S.
    TIM
    ENFp, IEE
    Posts
    2,926
    Mentioned
    282 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Derail: Pro-life religious debate

    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    Facts About Homosexuality and Child Molestation


    Prof. Herek's blog...




    1. The survey was conducted under the auspices of the Kinsey Institute (Klassen, Williams, & Levitt, 1989). (return to text)

    ...
    Homophobia is a really stupid word and so must be the rest of "Professors!" blog.
    Kinsey report? How ridiculous.

    So many words. You have so little to say that you have to cut and paste such lengths of drivel? This is no way to have a conversation. Or is this some kind of 16T filibuster? A way to end a conversation that for some reason doesn't make you comfortable?

    How about this? A picture tells a thousand words:

    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  2. #2
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    eastern U.S.
    TIM
    ENFp, IEE
    Posts
    2,926
    Mentioned
    282 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Nov. 3 - You choose! LIFE or DEATH!

    ...................... Protecting the right to life is the overriding human rights issue of all time click on that title for link for story


    ................................................... ...................

    ................................................... ......Photograph of a 26 week old baby in the womb
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 10-17-2020 at 01:17 AM.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  3. #3
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    eastern U.S.
    TIM
    ENFp, IEE
    Posts
    2,926
    Mentioned
    282 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Choose: Life or Death?

    .
    .
    .
    .

    .................................................. ..........
    Every 30 seconds in this country a baby is ripped limb to limb and sucked out of his womb in pieces. The abortionists piece together the body parts on a tray to make sure all the parts of the baby got sucked out. The baby's face is often in a SCREAM. You would scream, too, if your body parts were ripped off and sucked into a vacuum.

    Joe Biden and Kamala Harris support abortion up to the moment of birth, all at taxpayer expense, and they promise to nominate only pro-abortion judges.


    You have a choice. The world is watching. God is watching. On November 3rd do you choose life? Or death?

    Are you willing to accept the consequences of a death vote?

    Do you think God doesn't care? Because He hasn't struck us dead, yet? How far do you think we should push Him?

    This is a horrible world we live in. We have one chance to do a right thing as a country. If we fail, we will reap the natural consequences.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  4. #4
    Nobody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    Posts
    164
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    The beatings will continue, until morale improves.

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    TIM
    LIE-Nisx/so1,3,6,or7
    Posts
    1,452
    Mentioned
    74 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    ...................... Protecting the right to life is the overriding human rights issue of all time


    Photograph of a 26 week old baby in the womb
    https://tubitv.com/movies/544299/entre_nos

    That is a mother who values life.
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

  6. #6
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    eastern U.S.
    TIM
    ENFp, IEE
    Posts
    2,926
    Mentioned
    282 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default A Vote for Biden/Harris is..

    A vote for Biden Harris is you saying, ripping a baby a part in a woman's womb every 30 seconds here in America is not enough baby slaughter! We need to increase that rate!

    Joe Biden and Kamala Harris are EXTREME pro-abortionists. Harris even thinks a woman should be able to "choose" to kill her baby AFTER it is born. It is disgusting. What have we come to? How can anyone defend this? We are BEGGING God to intervene!

    The world is watching. God is watching. This election REALLY matters. We are telling the world, and God, what we think is right.

    If we vote to increase baby-killing in our country, then we should be prepared for the consequences.

    Christians, we need all need to be praying now, harder than ever!
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  7. #7

    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    TIM
    e9 so/sx
    Posts
    10
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Being pro-life actually used to be a part of the progressive platform (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...unborn/435369/). However, it was part and parcel of fighting for all life--whether unborn, living, or dying. If the right to life is as important as we claim, we must strive to implement policy to protect the most vulnerable in our society and those without resources, so that they may live (and retain) at least somewhat fulfilling lives as well. Being pro-life, but neither caring about the quality of the life lived nor the right to keep one's life, is not being pro-life at all.

    As I used to be pro-life, I can empathize with your position, Eliza. But it's important that we are not so ideological that we fail to recognize measures that actually will decrease the abortion rate, such as @nanashi pointed out.

  8. #8
    xerxe xerxe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Ministry of Love
    Posts
    6,569
    Mentioned
    121 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    The easiest way to get Republicans to support abortion is by ramming through a cradle-to-grave welfare system.

  9. #9
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Spiritus Mundi
    TIM
    psyche 4w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    11,335
    Mentioned
    978 Post(s)
    Tagged
    42 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    A vote for Biden Harris is you saying, ripping a baby a part in a woman's womb every 30 seconds here in America is not enough baby slaughter! We need to increase that rate!

    Joe Biden and Kamala Harris are EXTREME pro-abortionists. Harris even thinks a woman should be able to "choose" to kill her baby AFTER it is born. It is disgusting. What have we come to? How can anyone defend this? We are BEGGING God to intervene!

    The world is watching. God is watching. This election REALLY matters. We are telling the world, and God, what we think is right.

    If we vote to increase baby-killing in our country, then we should be prepared for the consequences.

    Christians, we need all need to be praying now, harder than ever!
    This bold part is an outright lie Eliza. As it would be a lie for me to say a vote for Trump shows your support of separating small children and infants from their mothers and locking them in cages where they cry all day and are treated like animals causing them lifetime trauma. You also want the police to kill black people if you vote for Trump and you care nothing for the babies alive now, only fetuses, is that fair to say of you?

    Another pro-life lie you perpetuate are some of the images in the links you posted of babies in the womb. Do you realize that most of those images used by "pro-lifers" from that particular photographer are of decades old Swedish abortions and miscarriages that were photographed in an aquarium filled with formaldehyde, using filters and lighting, to make them look ethereal? I remember you took issue with images like this one of a nebula giving birth to stars yet you are on board with presenting dead ethereal looking babies as live fetuses.

    NASA captures ‘space butterfly’ giving birth to new stars




    Aren't these images not awe inspiring enough?



    https://babyimpressions4d.com/photo-...y-28-32-weeks/

    If you don't believe me about the images in your links just look up the photographer.

    A Child Is Born…
    Lennart Nilsson Fetus Photography







    Each one of us human beings started out as a raceless, sexless shrimp-like creature – which, in my opinion, is a great argument against racism, sexism and religion and all other forms of uppity, self-important thinking. In 1965, Life Magazine published images from Swedish photographer Lennart Nilsson‘s book A Child Is Born: The drama of life before birth in unprecedented photographs. A practical guide for the expectant mother. Four days later, the entire run of 8 million copies of A Child is Born had sold out. It’s not hard to see why – these now iconic images of human fetuses were some of the first of their kind, and Nilssen captured our evolution in utero in stunning detail and drama. However, these fetuses weren’t actually in utero, Lennart’s subjects were all procured from Swedish abortion clinics, which allowed late stage abortions. In the ultimate irony, his images have been used extensively by pro-life and religious organizations; case in point – one of the images I pulled for this post was up on a blog about Unborn Jesus, illustrating where Jesus was at in the third trimester – because yes, there are Christians who worship Fetus Jesus. But despite the fact that the development of a fetus is probably the most common thing to happen on this planet, ever, it is still striking to watch and think about…check out Lennart Nilsson’s images below, as well as some digitally animated versions of his photos made for Swedish TV.


    Then you go and start a new thread about this judge to shift attention from a subject you clearly wanted to talk about but like the ethereal images you post she is not some saintly being. The threads should probably be merged just because you want to separate her from the rest of what you posted here.

    PS. I hope we get 33 US Supreme Court justices in the end. 33 is the correct number for today's world.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



  10. #10
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    eastern U.S.
    TIM
    ENFp, IEE
    Posts
    2,926
    Mentioned
    282 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    Being pro-life actually used to be a part of the progressive platform (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...unborn/435369/). However, it was part and parcel of fighting for all life--whether unborn, living, or dying. If the right to life is as important as we claim, we must strive to implement policy to protect the most vulnerable in our society and those without resources, so that they may live (and retain) at least somewhat fulfilling lives as well. Being pro-life, but neither caring about the quality of the life lived nor the right to keep one's life, is not being pro-life at all.

    As I used to be pro-life, I can empathize with your position, Eliza. But it's important that we are not so ideological that we fail to recognize measures that actually will decrease the abortion rate, such as @nanashi pointed out.
    We know when abortion was illegal and not government supported it was far more rare. Legalize it and fund it and voila! It increases exponentially! It rapidly reaches numbers unheard of inhistory! If Biden and Harris who both support the abortion of NINE MONTH OLD unborn babies are elected [how truly evil! How can peoplenot see this and be DISGUSTED?? What has blinded them?], you can be sure the abortion rate will not lower, and not only remain high, but get higher and higher

    We can see what lowers it. Trump will lower it. Biden and Harris will raise it. It is a no-brainer.

    If you were once prolife and are now pro-abort (misleadingly called pro-choice - when "pro-abort your baby" is what is meant) then I am truly sorry for you. How to you ever fall into such depraved deception?

    I actually do not request an answer to that. I only hope you will think about it on your own. Those things that brought you to this cannot have brought life to your soul, only darkness.

    Renounce the darkness! Go to the light!
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  11. #11
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Spiritus Mundi
    TIM
    psyche 4w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    11,335
    Mentioned
    978 Post(s)
    Tagged
    42 Thread(s)

    Default

    I imagine Trump has funded quite a few abortions over the years to make things quietly "go away".

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



  12. #12
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    eastern U.S.
    TIM
    ENFp, IEE
    Posts
    2,926
    Mentioned
    282 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default GOD AND THE INNOCENT - OUR NATION IS UNDER BLOOD GUILT

    Found this and sharing it. Christians, we must pray for our nation, we are under blood guilt. I do not agree with all the theology of all these cited but I believe they are believers and I agree when Pat Robertson says, "We have not yet seen His judgment on America." Yes. we are past due. We will get our due, but I fully believe this election will put off some of what we are due, or it will bring it sooner and harsher, depending on how we vote. The article [bolds and underlines and italics are mine]:


    GOD AND THE INNOCENT - OUR NATION IS UNDER BLOOD GUILT


    In their book “Their Blood Cries Out” Troy Newman and Cheryl Sullenger write, “Bloodguilt. Over 41,600,000 lives testify against us individually, as a community, as a Church, and as a nation. Our complicity in the crime of murder is inescapable. It is clear what price needs to be paid for the shedding of innocent blood and equally clear that the price has not been paid either by civil justice, by His people's trust in Christ¹s innocent blood for payment on this score, or by God exacting justice through judgment. The voice of innocent blood cries out to God continually for vengeance. Knowing this, we can never again read the Scriptures without being reminded that we stand in danger of God¹s judgment for our culpability in the shedding of innocent blood.”

    After 9/11many well known Christian leaders felt that God had lifted his protection from America. For example, Pastor Chuck Smith, as quoted in the Los Angeles Times, 9/22/01, "There have been 30 million babies destroyed in abortion clinics. Do you think God can just idly sit by and watch this carnage?"

    Pat Robertson says he stands by a statement he released after the attacks in which he said that Americans had insulted God by allowing abortion. "This was a wake-up call from God. The Lord is getting ready to shake this nation. We have not yet seen his judgment on America."

    Man has value - Genesis 1:25 "And God created man in His own image...God is intimately involved with the preborn - Psalm 139: 13-14 "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;" God cares for the born and unborn even sending his own son, Christ, to die for our sins. We have a unique position in His creation. - John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

    God has a special love for children - Psalm 127:3 "Behold, children are a gift of the Lord; the fruit of the womb is a reward."

    God is concerned about man's sin and his need for forgiveness - I John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

    God is concerned about the injured, the poor and heavy laden - The good Samaritan presents to Christians a challenge to help rid our land of the legal killing of over 1,000,000 innocent preborn a year.

    Blood guilt is over the land - Psalm 106:37-38 "They even sacrificed their sons and their daughters to the demons, and shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and their daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan; and the land was polluted with the blood."

    God calls for repentance - 2 Chronicles 7:14 "if my people who are called by my name humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

    This is the church age and the Body of Christ, the Church, is not without guilt since innocent children are legally being killed in America.- Isaiah 1:15 "'So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you, yes, even though you multiply prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood."

    Deuteronomy 21:7-9 "and they shall answer and say, Our hands have not shed this blood, nor did our eyes see it. Forgive Thy people Israel whom Thou hast redeemed, O Lord, and do not place the guilt of innocent blood in the midst of Thy people Israel." And the blood shall be forgiven them. So you shall remove the guilt of innocent blood from your midst, when you do what is right in the eyes of the Lord."

    H.A. “Bud” Reeves, President, SOHLNET.org, Sanctity of Human Life Network, Inc. writes, “Today, child killing by abortion is taking place in buildings in our community, in the shadows of nearby churches. It is rare that an American pastor or church decides to take truth and mercy to these abortion mills. WHY? Are not the little boys and girls in the womb our neighbors? Are we not much like the Priest and the Levite who walked across the street to pass by the man who was bleeding after having been robbed and beaten on his way to Jericho? Why is it today the religious leaders are still walking by? They will have no excuse. If we are to see revival and restoration, the Christian Church must cry out in repentance and humility and then begin ministry at the abortion mills.”
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  13. #13

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    TIM
    LIE-Nisx/so1,3,6,or7
    Posts
    1,452
    Mentioned
    74 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    We know when abortion was illegal and not government supported it was far more rare. Legalize it and fund it and voila! It increases exponentially! It rapidly reaches numbers unheard of inhistory! If Biden and Harris who both support the abortion of NINE MONTH OLD unborn babies are elected [how truly evil! How can peoplenot see this and be DISGUSTED?? What has blinded them?], you can be sure the abortion rate will not lower, and not only remain high, but get higher and higher

    We can see what lowers it. Trump will lower it. Biden and Harris will raise it. It is a no-brainer.

    If you were once prolife and are now pro-abort (misleadingly called pro-choice - when "pro-abort your baby" is what is meant) then I am truly sorry for you. How to you ever fall into such depraved deception?

    I actually do not request an answer to that. I only hope you will think about it on your own. Those things that brought you to this cannot have brought life to your soul, only darkness.

    Renounce the darkness! Go to the light!
    I know it is hard when a govt official spreads lies. So here, Hon:


    PBS has a record of factual reporting:

    Fact-Checking 6 Claims Pence Made About Biden's Record In His RNC Speech


    "CLAIM: "Joe Biden, he supports taxpayer funding of abortion, right up to the moment of birth." FACT CHECK: Biden has not explicitly expressed support for late-term abortions. He wants to codify Roe v. Wade and reup federal funding for Planned Parenthood. In Roe, the Supreme Court generally found that women have a right to an abortion and limited the ability of states to restrict access to the procedure, particularly in the earlier stages of pregnancy. The court has also said abortions should be allowed after 24 weeks if the mother's life or health are at risk."https://www.npr.org/2020/08/27/90664...vention-speech
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

  14. #14

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    TIM
    LIE-Nisx/so1,3,6,or7
    Posts
    1,452
    Mentioned
    74 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    We know when abortion was illegal and not government supported it was far more rare. Legalize it and fund it and voila! It increases exponentially! It rapidly reaches numbers unheard of inhistory!

    We Already Know How To Safely Reduce Abortions
    Hint: It has nothing to do with restricting access.
    By
    Anna Almendrala
    02/14/2017 05:45pm EST | Updated February 14, 2017


    Based on the rash of recent statewide anti-abortion laws, you’d never guess that the U.S. is winning the fight to reduce unintended pregnancies. Abortions in the U.S. are at the lowest rate since the Roe v. Wade decision in 1973, while teen birth rates are the lowest they’ve ever been since the country started recording that data.

    Despite this, in 2016, 19 states passed more than 60 restrictions on abortion. And 2017 is starting to offer more of the same: Kentucky passed a bill banning abortion after 20 weeks and Arkansas just passed a law that allows a man to stop his wife from having an abortion if he is the father of the fetus.

    Supporters of these laws believe that outlawing certain abortion procedures protects the mental and physical health of the mother and the fetus’ right to thrive and be born. For those who believe abortion is murder, these laws seem like they should reduce the number of abortion procedures carried out every year.

    But research from around the globe is sobering: Restrictive laws don’t actually seem to reduce abortion rates. Instead, they are linked to unsafe abortions, which put women at risk of serious health problems and even death.

    It doesn’t have to be like this. There are known, evidence-based ways to reduce abortions that actually increase a woman’s autonomy over her body, health and well-being — rather than take away her rights and put her in danger.


    HUFFPOST/ALISSA SCHELLER
    When states invest in comprehensive sex education, teen pregnancy rates go down.
    States that emphasize abstinence-only programs have the highest rates of teen pregnancy and teen birth. And while research also shows that students who go through abstinence-only programs or take virginity pledges appear to have fewer sexual partners and be sexually active for less time, they still have the same rates of STD infection as their non-pledging peers ― possibly because they are less likely to use condoms at first, or get tested for STDs.

    THE ESSENTIAL GUIDE TO TAKING CARE OF YOUR MIND AND BODY
    Subscribe to HuffPost’s wellness email
    address@email.com
    Successfully Subscribed!
    Wellness delivered to your inbox
    It’s important to note that these trends are only a correlation, says Dr. Laura MacIsaac, system director of the division of family planning at Mount Sinai Health System in New York. In other words, they don’t definitively demonstrate that abstinence-only education causes higher rates of teen pregnancy or teen births. Due to the lack of randomized controlled trials on this issue, however, they are some of the few measures of how successful particular sex education programs are.

    California is one example of how states have adjusted when it becomes clear that abstinence-only education isn’t working. In 1992, the state’s teen pregnancy rate was 157 per 1,000 teens aged 15 to 19 — the highest rate in the nation. To combat the problem, the state launched a three-year abstinence-only sex education effort, only to cancel the program in 1995 when it had absolutely no effect on teens’ decisions to start having sex. In 2003, lawmakers instead passed the California Comprehensive Sexual Health and HIV/AIDS Prevention Education Act, explains Heather D. Boonstra in a 2010 article for the Guttmacher Policy Review.

    The law, Boonstra explained, forbade classes from promoting religious doctrine or bias against people, and said that all sex education programs had to be medically accurate, age-appropriate and comprehensive. By 2005, California’s teen pregnancy rate was 75 per 1,000 teens ― a more than 50 percent decline that dwarfed the corresponding national decline of 37 percent.

    To this day, a large minority of teen pregnancies tend to end in abortion. But with California’s decline in teen pregnancy rates came declines in both teen births and teen abortions. Abortions, in particular, dropped from 76 per 1,000 teens in 1988 to 26 per 1,000 in 2005.

    In contrast to California, Texas only began shifting away from abstinence-only education around 2011, soon after the end of the George W. Bush administration, when federal grant money for abstinence-only programs dried up. By then, Texas had the third-highest teen pregnancy rate in the country, and the Barack Obama administration was offering funding for “evidence-based” teen sex education.

    In 1990, Texas and California were basically on equal footing when it came to teen births: Texas’ teen birth rate was 75.3 per 1,000 teen girls, while California’s teen birth rate was 70.6 per 1,000. Yet by 2011, Texas’ teen birth rate was 46.9 per 1,000 teen girls, while California’s was only 28.7 per 1,000.

    By 2014, the latest year for which this data is available, the teen birth rate in Texas was 37.8 per 1,000 teen girls, while California’s was 21.1 per 1,000.

    When teens have access to the free birth control of their choice, abortion rates plummet.
    The Contraceptive CHOICE Project launched in St. Louis, Missouri in 2007 with the goal of reducing unintended pregnancies. A large proportion of unintended pregnancies, which are defined as either mistimed or unwanted, tend to end in abortion; In 2011, about 45 percent of pregnancies in the U.S. were unintended, of which 42 percent ended in abortion.

    To prevent such pregnancies, the CHOICE project enrolled over 9,000 women between 2007 and 2011 to receive free contraceptive counseling and the contraception of their choice for two to three years. The researchers found that from 2006 to 2010, teen study participants had an average annual abortion rate of 9.7 per 1,000 teens — significantly lower than the 41.5 abortions per 1,000 sexually active teens nationwide in 2008.

    Rates of teen pregnancy birth and abortion are lower among teens enrolled in the CHOICE study compared to sexually active teens nationwide
    HUFFPOST/ALISSA SCHELLER
    Rates of teen pregnancy birth and abortion are lower among teens enrolled in the CHOICE study compared to sexually active teens nationwide
    “The idea that women can access preventive methods and preventive health care at low cost or no cost is essential,” said lead investigator Dr. Jeffrey Peipert, chair of the department of obstetrics and gynecology at Indiana University School of Medicine. “Every dollar invested in contraception can save between four and 17 dollars down the road in health care costs.”

    MacIsaac, who was not involved in Peipert’s research, described the CHOICE project as “the most powerful study we have of what works: education of the methods and free access.”

    The state of Colorado has also found this to be true. After handing out free IUDs and implants to teens and poor women over six years, the statewide teen birthrate dropped 40 percent from 2009 to 2013, while the abortion rate dropped 42 percent. The results were especially dramatic in the state’s poorest regions, The New York Times reported.

    Despite the program’s stunning success, however, GOP members in Colorado’s state Senate failed to keep funding it when the money ran out in 2015. Colorado corrected this when Gov. John Hickenlooper (D) signed the state’s 2016 budget, however, providing $2.5 million for the program.

    Long-acting, reversible contraception is the most effective way to prevent teen pregnancy ― but it needs to be affordable.
    Short of sterilization ― which is permanent ― the use of long-acting, reversible contraception (known as LARCs) is the most effective way to prevent pregnancy. LARCs, which include IUDs and implants, last for years and don’t require woman to remember to take a daily pill, slap on a monthly patch or use condoms.

    LARCs are highly effective and cheaper over the long term, but they can be expensive up front for uninsured or underinsured women. Out-of-pocket costs can range from $500 to $1,000, putting them out of reach for teens and poor women — those most at risk of an unintended pregnancy.

    In the contraceptive CHOICE project, teen participants learned about all methods of contraception, including LARCs. Seventy-two percent of the teens then chose to use an IUD or an implant as their own form of birth control. Among the general population, only 7.2 percent of women use LARCs. This shows that women who receive a comprehensive education about birth control methods are more likely to choose the most effective and long-lasting kind.

    Among the CHOICE participants who opted not to use LARCs as their birth control method, there were 4.55 unintended pregnancies per 100 women every year. There were only 0.27 unintended pregnancies per 100 women per year for the CHOICE participants who chose the LARCs.

    Women who chose long-acting reversible contraception LARC as their birth control method had a much lower risk of unintended pregnancy compared to women who chose other methods of contraception.
    HUFFPOST/ALISSA SCHELLER
    Women who chose long-acting reversible contraception LARC as their birth control method had a much lower risk of unintended pregnancy compared to women who chose other methods of contraception.
    Based on this and similar data, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists urged doctors to consider recommending LARCs as the first-line contraceptive for both women and teens in 2012. ACOG re-emphasized this recommendation in 2015, urging doctors to encourage patients to consider LARCs and advocate for patients to get insurance to cover the devices.

    “One of the reasons ACOG is trying to improve physician education around LARC is because we have so much more robust data about how good contraception is highly effective and easy to use, and that women like it,” said MacIsaac, who also serves on ACOG’s LARC task force. “We’ve known it all over Europe, the CHOICE study showed it in the U.S., and ACOG wants to help push that information forward.”

    Outlawing abortion endangers women and doesn’t seem to work.
    Meanwhile, in contrast to these evidence-based methods of reducing unintended pregnancy, research suggests that outlawing abortion procedures doesn’t actually help reduce abortion.

    A 2016 analysis published in the Lancet finds that the average abortion rate in countries where the procedure is outlawed is 37 per 1,000 women, compared to 34 per 1,000 in countries where abortion is legal. In other words, scientists found no evidence that anti-abortion laws do anything to reduce the number of actual procedures women get.

    The analysis also found that abortion rates are down worldwide, from 40 per 1,000 women in 1994 to 35 per 1,000 women by 2014. However, the decrease is concentrated mostly in the developed world, where the rate declined from 46 abortions per 1,000 women to 27 per 1,000.

    Countries in the developing world, meanwhile, saw abortions go down from 39 per 1,000 women to 37 per 1,000 — what scientists described as a “non-significant” decline. It’s worth noting that developed countries are more likely to have better access to health care and highly effective birth control than developing countries.

    This reporting is brought to you by HuffPost’s health and science platform, The Scope. Like us on Facebook and Twitter and tell us your story: scopestories@huffingtonpost.com.
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

  15. #15

    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    TIM
    e9 so/sx
    Posts
    10
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    We know when abortion was illegal and not government supported it was far more rare. Legalize it and fund it and voila! It increases exponentially! It rapidly reaches numbers unheard of inhistory! If Biden and Harris who both support the abortion of NINE MONTH OLD unborn babies are elected [how truly evil! How can peoplenot see this and be DISGUSTED?? What has blinded them?], you can be sure the abortion rate will not lower, and not only remain high, but get higher and higher

    We can see what lowers it. Trump will lower it. Biden and Harris will raise it. It is a no-brainer.

    If you were once prolife and are now pro-abort (misleadingly called pro-choice - when "pro-abort your baby" is what is meant) then I am truly sorry for you. How to you ever fall into such depraved deception?

    I actually do not request an answer to that. I only hope you will think about it on your own. Those things that brought you to this cannot have brought life to your soul, only darkness.

    Renounce the darkness! Go to the light!
    nanashi just posted a good article that already covered what I wanted to say, actually. But even though I still do not like abortion personally, when abortion is legal (and access to birth control, resources, etc. improved), abortion rates decrease, sometimes drastically. And so it's better for both pro-lifers and pro-choicers.
    Last edited by sunburst; 10-17-2020 at 10:49 PM. Reason: a word

  16. #16
    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    3,678
    Mentioned
    103 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I have solved this dilemma quite a while ago:

    Attached Images Attached Images
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

  17. #17

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    TIM
    LIE-Nisx/so1,3,6,or7
    Posts
    1,452
    Mentioned
    74 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I think people don't realize that pro-life people are not necessarily for the abolition of abortion.

    There are people who look at the factors that contribute to abortions and recognize those still exist with laws that punish people.
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

  18. #18
    ♰CHRIST IS KING♰ MrInternet42069's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Monte Carlo
    Posts
    2,758
    Mentioned
    85 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Abortion is murder.

  19. #19

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    TIM
    LIE-Nisx/so1,3,6,or7
    Posts
    1,452
    Mentioned
    74 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by squirtle69 View Post
    Abortion is murder.
    then, are you voting for people who work toward policies PROVEN TO REDUCE IT and reduce unwanted pregnancies? Like sex ed, access to prevention, higher education opportunities for everyone (not just the wealthy)?
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

  20. #20
    ♰CHRIST IS KING♰ MrInternet42069's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Monte Carlo
    Posts
    2,758
    Mentioned
    85 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    then, are you voting for people who work toward policies PROVEN TO REDUCE IT and reduce unwanted pregnancies? Like sex ed, access to prevention, higher education opportunities for everyone (not just the wealthy)?
    Yep

  21. #21

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    11,295
    Mentioned
    328 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    lol you can't be serious or that naive. The diagram is a mere picture or illustration of a baby. It's not a real being actually being harmed by The Abortion Demon. Do you also think I myself harmed a real kid just because I wrote in one of my novels that Esther Hicks ((before she became an Idea of Herself)) killed a baby and then campily spun it around on her fingers for entertainment purposes?

    That is NOT how abortions are done in the real world, Eliza.

    And even those pictures are often photoshopped/edited (please don't post them here either just to prove your point as I think that would be a violation of the forum's ToS) or they are from another country and practice that ended a long time ago.

    There's nothing wrong with abortion. It is actually much more moral to abort a fetus you can't care of as a normal kid then raise it in a world where it won't be supported. The parents won't/can't support or love it, so that means the State has to fill the void and we all know what a good job that will do. We have opposing political & religious viewpoints but we know all about the Illuminati Reptile Demons, Eliza. In all reality they will grow up their entire lives in the system, probably become a criminal/be involved in the system anyway and sexually abused by fucked-up weirdos beyond recognition.

    Idealistically & emotionally you think they can be saved but they can't. Realistically the only way to 'save them' is to make sure they don't exist in the first place. It's not the most ideal of situations- of course ideally we all would be born and be completely loved and wanted and supported to be a 'contributing member of society' but the world doesn't work quite that way. So sometimes the right moral thing to do isn't based on ideals or religion.

    The few good people who work for the state/government KNOW that children do not belong in that system and how corrupt it is from the inside out and try whatever possible to keep the kids with caring families if they can find them (that's a big 'if' of course and not based on dumb Fairytale Ideals but the harsh real world and sadly- there is just sometimes not a good place for kids to go!!! It's not like in the Hallmark specials where Jimmy Foster gets the right caring family at the last second and All Is Well.) - but nobody can love you like your real birth parents anyway, but if your real birth parents aren't ready or able to have children then they should definitely have the right to abort- otherwise it's just cruel.

    I think 'found families' like my internet 16types family can in a way love you better/than your real family can to an extent but the person also has to be loved themselves by other forces in the world to even know how to look for this. And there is no way to realistically support all the unwanted babies/kids because of how rampant heterosexuality is lol and how easily it makes babies.

    I mean you could try yourself and create a Christian Half-way home for kids that would have otherwise been aborted, like Oprah Winfrey did sort of with uneducated black girls- but then you risk corrupt pedophiles and other abusive people wanting to work in your facility as you obviously couldn't care for all those children yourself. There is no easy answer to that problem sadly. Sometimes the ethical thing to do is abort and make sure they don't have to be put in that situation.

  22. #22
    Head chef on the SS Diarrhea Grendel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Great Spirit Robot
    TIM
    B I T C H
    Posts
    1,919
    Mentioned
    136 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Purge the crotchgoblins.

  23. #23

    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Posts
    77
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default



    wow.

    Thanks for bringing this to attention, Eliza.

    I had no idea what the process looked like. The pictures really make this is a poignant point.

    I think the only adult way to frame this is: abortion at 26 weeks is a type of murder, that young, unformed creature has a type of low grade consciousness and life force forming its innumerable atoms.

    The question then seems to me, to be, that some women are alright with murder. There is no way around it. And tbh, I can't say I blame some women. They do what they must and the compelling impetus to abort their child comes from a place inside them that holds its own inner wisdom, even if we, or them, cannot see past the ignorance for the deeper picture. Its no small matter. I know that sounds harsh, given my assessment, that your posts brought to me.


    Humanity is on a trajectory, we left the natural state long before the pyramids arose. Who is to say how this, all of it will end. Modernity has its rewards. And its evils. All the way from the shoes we force our feet into, up to our high crimes. Maybe someday we will look back on this era with as much disturbance as we look back on people slicing each other open in broad bloody spectacle for entertainment.

    I think that I can make peace with it. At least terms. Coming to terms with abortion is a battle front already fought. This is the rule of precedence.

    "Forgive them lord, for they know not what they do."

  24. #24

  25. #25
    inumbra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    946 sp/so IP mess
    Posts
    6,488
    Mentioned
    112 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    There's nothing wrong with abortion. It is actually much more moral to abort a fetus you can't care of as a normal kid then raise it in a world where it won't be supported. The parents won't/can't support or love it, so that means the State has to fill the void and we all know what a good job that will do.
    Nature sucks. In nature the mother is always more important than her offspring. If she dies for them, they die too, and she will never reproduce again. It is death to a species. The offspring draws her energy and resources, and if she can't sustain that it's her choice to cut it off. But I suppose we can float the offspring down the river and say "you will have a chance."

    Anyway, I don't like abortion, but once again, the world isn't nice, nature isn't sweet, life is hard. Etc.

    I agree there is more than one argument that it is ethical in some cases (or perhaps entirely given human overpopulation).
    Last edited by inumbra; 10-24-2020 at 04:54 AM.

  26. #26
    xerxe xerxe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Ministry of Love
    Posts
    6,569
    Mentioned
    121 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    ..... on the other hand, s/he could be the next Adolph H!tler.

  27. #27
    Head chef on the SS Diarrhea Grendel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Great Spirit Robot
    TIM
    B I T C H
    Posts
    1,919
    Mentioned
    136 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    Nature sucks. In nature the mother is always more important than her offspring. If she dies for them, they die too, and she will never reproduce again. It is death to a species. The offspring draws her energy and resources, and if she can't sustain that it's her choice to cut it off. But I suppose we can float the offspring down the river and say "you will have a chance."

    Anyway, I don't like abortion, but once again, the world isn't nice, nature isn't sweet, life is hard. Etc.

    I agree there is more than one argument that it is ethical in some cases (or perhaps entirely given human overpopulation).
    In humans it is. In K-selected creatures (which are an abomination for several reasons).

    More often than not, the norm in nature is that the larvae crack out of the eggs totally self-sufficient, hunting from their first day of life, and never even need to see their own parents.


    Nitpick. Your point does still apply for humans, though.

  28. #28
    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    Enlightened
    Posts
    16,765
    Mentioned
    337 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Homophobia is a really stupid word and so must be the rest of "Professors!" blog.
    Kinsey report? How ridiculous.

    So many words. You have so little to say that you have to cut and paste such lengths of drivel? This is no way to have a conversation. Or is this some kind of 16T filibuster? A way to end a conversation that for some reason doesn't make you comfortable?

    How about this? A picture tells a thousand words:

    Countries that legalised abortion actually have lower rates than those where it is illegal.
    @nanashi also makes a good point about how access to contraception and having sex education lowers the number of abortions.

    In past centuries, even newborn infants were left out in the cold to die on a frequent basis. This was true even in Rome - babies were thrown into the Tiber and no one was prosecuted for this. Church theologians such as Augustine of Hippo actually gave advise on how to have abortions.

    If you don't want an abortion, don't have one. But abortion being legal results in fewer abortions, especially late term.

  29. #29
    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    Enlightened
    Posts
    16,765
    Mentioned
    337 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Homophobia is a really stupid word and so must be the rest of "Professors!" blog.
    Kinsey report? How ridiculous.

    So many words. You have so little to say that you have to cut and paste such lengths of drivel? This is no way to have a conversation. Or is this some kind of 16T filibuster? A way to end a conversation that for some reason doesn't make you comfortable?

    How about this? A picture tells a thousand words:

    You believe that I will be tortured for eternity for not following the dogma of your religion. You are being hypocritical.

  30. #30
    xerxe xerxe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Ministry of Love
    Posts
    6,569
    Mentioned
    121 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    People laugh at me when I point out the logical alternatives to the standard (and boring) pro-life/pro-choice dichotomy:

    * Life begins after birth. For example, once an infant achieves self-awareness.

    * Life begins before conception. There's nothing inherently correct about waiting for a child to be conceived. The fact that something is more natural or conventional is irrelevant; we already modify our biology in highly unnatural and unconventional ways under the moral imperative to do so — e.g. by curing naturally occurring ailments like cancer.
    Last edited by xerxe; 10-25-2020 at 11:27 PM. Reason: +added

  31. #31
    xerxe xerxe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Ministry of Love
    Posts
    6,569
    Mentioned
    121 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    Life begins before conception. There's nothing inherently correct about waiting for a child to be conceived. The fact that something is more natural or conventional is irrelevant; we already modify our biology in highly unnatural and unconventional ways under the moral imperative to do so — e.g. by curing naturally occurring ailments like cancer.
    There's also nothing inherently wrong with genetic engineering........ I await the panicked responses of the soulless defenders of orthodoxy.

  32. #32
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    eastern U.S.
    TIM
    ENFp, IEE
    Posts
    2,926
    Mentioned
    282 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    You believe that I will be tortured for eternity for not following the dogma of your religion. You are being hypocritical.
    I don't see where you are getting that from? You'll have to explain it better.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  33. #33
    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    Enlightened
    Posts
    16,765
    Mentioned
    337 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I don't see where you are getting that from? You'll have to explain it better.
    Oh, I know the Catholics have gone off the idea of Purgatory at least from the time when they sold indulgences for their share of silver, but I wasn't aware that Catholic dogma had rewritten the dogma regarding Hell as well.

  34. #34
    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    Enlightened
    Posts
    16,765
    Mentioned
    337 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)

    Default

    @Eliza Thomason

    What the Bible says about Abortion

    Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life.

    If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. -- Exodus 21:22-23

    The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.

    And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. -- Leviticus 27:6

    Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons.

    Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16

    And the LORD said unto Moses, Number all the firstborn of the males of the children of Israel from a month old and upward, and take the number of their names. -- Numbers 3:40

    God sometimes approves of killing fetuses.

    And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. -- Numbers 31:15-17
    (Some of the non-virgin women must have been pregnant. They would have been killed along with their unborn fetuses.)

    Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. -- Hosea 9:14

    Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. -- Hosea 9:16

    Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. -- Hosea 13:16

    God sometimes kills newborn babies to punish their parents.

    Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. -- 2 Samuel 12:14

    God sometimes causes abortions by cursing unfaithful wives.

    The priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. ...
    And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. -- Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28

    God's law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women.

    Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. -- Genesis 38:24

    The Psalmist prays that his enemies are aborted.

    Let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun. -- Psalm 58:8

    https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/s.../abortion.html

  35. #35
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    eastern U.S.
    TIM
    ENFp, IEE
    Posts
    2,926
    Mentioned
    282 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    From the Skeptics Notated Bible... seriously? It's so very... sad. And, bad. It is not rad. And it does not make me glad.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  36. #36
    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    Enlightened
    Posts
    16,765
    Mentioned
    337 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    From the Skeptics Notated Bible... seriously? It's so very... sad. And, bad. It is not rad. And it does not make me glad.
    Surely you read the quoted parts before you got to the link? Every quote is in the original bible.

    It isn't a sound argument to say that because someone you disagree with quoted from your holy book you can ignore the quotes as being problematic for you.

  37. #37

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    TIM
    LIE-Nisx/so1,3,6,or7
    Posts
    1,452
    Mentioned
    74 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    ..... on the other hand, s/he could be the next Adolph H!tler.
    Yeah, but Minority Report showed us over a decade ago why that argument is trash-fire-ness.
    We can't use the 'they could be ******' idea.
    Ess unreasonable.



    In addition to everything in the article below, it's ethically hypocritical and THERE IS NO PROOF it's effective AND no proof it's not WORSE for humanity

    Brain flapping Science and scepticism
    Time travellers: please don’t kill ******
    In almost any science-fiction scenario involving time-travel, the default action is to kill ******. As terrible a human being as he was, there are many reasons why this probably isn’t a good idea

    Dean Burnett

    @garwboy
    Fri 21 Feb 2014 02.15 ESTLast modified on Thu 22 Feb 2018 07.30 EST
    Shares
    4,380
    Comments
    1,085
    A picture of Adolf ****** (1889-1945), the German fascist dictator, pictured saluting at a Nuremberg rally, 1934. (Photo by Popperfoto/Getty Images) Famous Swastika Nazi Heil
    Adolf ****** at a rally, likely surrounded by time-travelling assassins in disguise. Photograph: Popperfoto/Getty Images
    If you find yourself suddenly gaining access to a time machine, what’s the first thing you’d do? If you said “kill Adolf ******”, then congratulations; you’re a science-fiction character. Actually, the whole “access to a time machine” thing suggested that already, but the desire to kill ****** clinches it. Any time-travelling sci-fi character (at least ones created by Western society) seems to want to kill ******, so much so that there’s a trope about how it’s impossible.

    That attempting to kill ****** has become such a common sci-fi plot device speaks volumes. What about Stalin? He was arguably worse, killing 20 million of his own people to fuel his ideology. But no, Stalin went about his business unmolested by time travellers, all of whom are busy targeting ******.

    Advertisement

    It’s understandable. Who wouldn’t want to prevent the holocaust? It’s probably the worst thing in history. And I only say “probably” because I don’t know all of history, and the human capacity to be awful should not be underestimated. But as noble as it seems, killing the Fuhrer via time travel is a terrible idea, for real-world reasons, not just those in fiction. So should you get hold of a time machine and make plans to kill ******, here are some reasons why you shouldn’t.

    Ethical quandary
    Could you actually kill another human being? Despite what pop culture implies, humans generally aren’t predisposed to killing each other. This isn’t an absolute, of course. Abstract thinking about homicide is relatively common, and many humans end up taking the lives of others due to complex circumstances such as brutal upbringings/environments, or possibly psychiatric illness. And of course, some people are just evil. It seems challenging to reconcile these motivations with the mentality that plans to kill ****** as an altruistic act.


    Sign up for Bookmarks: discover new books in our weekly email
    Read more
    But let’s assume you are willing to kill one to save millions of others. All of history to visit, and your first port of call involves killing. Fine. Whatever. When do you kill ******? As a child, ****** hadn’t done anything monstrous enough to warrant his murder, so would you be willing to take his life then? Minority Report struggled with this issue, and that was on a much smaller scale.

    Maybe later, when the Reich is in place but he hadn’t committed genocide yet. But would this be too late? Once everything has been set up, would eliminating ****** change anything? This brings us onto another reason not to do it.

    Wider context
    Stephen Fry dealt with this superbly in his book Making History. Without spoilers, the problem is that many assume ****** was the sole cause of the second world war and all the associated horrors. Sadly, this is a gross oversimplification. Germany in the 1930s wasn’t a utopia of basket-weaving peace lovers who were suddenly and severely corrupted by ******’s charismatic moustache. The political tensions and strife were all there, results of a previous world war and a great depression; ****** was just able to capitalise on this. But if he hadn’t, say because he had been eliminated by an errant time traveller, then there’s nothing to say that nobody else would.

    Problems rarely exist in isolation. Just like you can’t go in and rip out a tumour because it’s connected to the wider body which will react badly to such a blunt intrusion, elimination of the main figurehead won’t necessarily prevent events that were as much a product of the wider socio-political context. So if you did try it …

    Chaos theory
    There’s the oft-quoted example of the butterfly effect, ie very small changes in a very complex system can have very big effects. You can criticise ****** for many valid reasons, but one thing he wasn’t was “insignificant”; if he were, there’d be no desire to assassinate him. So even if you did succeed, given the impact he had on so many lives, you’d drastically alter the future/present, even if it panned out to be “better” without ******.

    Say whoever replaced him was ineffectual and the war ended with reduced loss of life and destruction. In this timeline, maybe no German rocket scientists ended up in the US. The space programme loses some of its best minds, and happens more slowly (or not at all?) The space race resulted in a breath-taking amount of scientific advancement and spinoff technology, one strand of which eventually led to time travel. Now that you’ve changed things, time travel wasn’t invented in your lifetime, so either you vanish and the whole thing is undone, or your time machine does. So now you’re stranded in wartime Berlin. And you’ve just killed the beloved leader of one of the most powerful military machines in history.

    Good luck with that.

    Cultural reference
    This may seem like a minor issue, but it’s not wise to dismiss how ****** and his actions shaped the society of those who opposed him. The Nazis are almost unanimously considered to have been the “bad guys”. The phenomenon of Godwin’s law underscores the cultural reflex of Nazis = evil and wrong. Anyone who agrees with them in present times is (quite rightly) condemned en masse. Without this stark and horrible example of how prejudice and fascism can lead to atrocities, would such things be as vilified as they are today? The existence of ****** likely served to unite his enemies at a societal level, which has considerable ramifications.

    And let’s not overlook the consequences of the war that led to important changes in terms of equality and the like in society as a whole. This isn’t to say these things wouldn’t happen anyway, but it’s likely they happened a lot faster due to ******’s presence. It’s impossible to say how many may have suffered and died over the years, if people hadn’t banded together to fight ******. Is this something you’d risk changing?

    ****** lost
    This is overlooked surprisingly often, so it bears repeating: ****** didn’t win. Whatever you think of the present, we don’t live in some bleak wasteland dominated by a global Reich. Because ****** and his armies lost. Although it was a costly victory, it was still technically a victory, so why risk going back and interfering with an outcome you favour? And arguably, it was due to ******’s incompetence as a strategist that the war panned out the way it did.

    In a way, ****** had the perfect combination of drive, charisma, evil and incompetence to unite the world against him and ensure that his forces lost. It’s such an unlikely combination of factors that the only way to consciously make it happen would be to go back in time and remove anyone else who might have …

    … oh. Oh dear.

    Dean Burnett promises he is not a time-travelling Nazi. But then, he would say that, wouldn’t he? Keep an eye on him on Twitter, @garwboy

    America faces an epic choice ...
    ... in the coming days, and the results will define the country for a generation. These are perilous times. Over the last four years, much of what the Guardian holds dear has been threatened – democracy, civility, truth.


    The future of abortion and voting rights, healthcare, climate policy and much more hang in the balance. Science is in a battle with conjecture and instinct to determine policy in the middle of a pandemic. At the same time, the US is reckoning with centuries of racial injustice – as the White House stokes division along racial lines. At a time like this, an independent news organization that fights for truth and holds power to account is not just optional. It is essential.


    Like many news organizations, the Guardian has been significantly impacted by the pandemic. We rely to an ever greater extent on our readers, both for the moral force to continue doing journalism at a time like this and for the financial strength to facilitate that reporting.


    You’ve read more than 25 articles in the last year. We believe every one of us deserves equal access to fact-based news and analysis. We’ve decided to keep Guardian journalism free for all readers, regardless of where they live or what they can afford to pay. This is made possible thanks to the support we receive from readers across America in all 50 states.


    As our business model comes under even greater pressure, we’d love your help so that we can carry on our essential work. If you can, support the Guardian from as little as $1 – and it only takes a minute. Thank you.
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

  38. #38
    queentiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    851
    Mentioned
    36 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Surely you read the quoted parts before you got to the link? Every quote is in the original bible.

    It isn't a sound argument to say that because someone you disagree with quoted from your holy book you can ignore the quotes as being problematic for you.
    Religious nutcases do tend to be like that.

  39. #39

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    TIM
    LIE-Nisx/so1,3,6,or7
    Posts
    1,452
    Mentioned
    74 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Just wanted to point out that not having a set numbering of kiddos under a month MIGHT have had nothing to do with seeing them as people. It could have been that they weren't numbered because of a VERY HIGH infant mortality rate meaning a lot of the under a month kids might have been unlikely to live. Numbering them would have then produced an unreliable headcount (when several died while the count was being reported).
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

  40. #40
    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    Enlightened
    Posts
    16,765
    Mentioned
    337 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by queentiger View Post
    Religious nutcases do tend to be like that.
    I wouldn't call her a nutcase but she is a totalitarian religious extremist.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •