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Thread: Derail: Pro-life religious debate

  1. #41
    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    Just wanted to point out that not having a set numbering of kiddos under a month MIGHT have had nothing to do with seeing them as people. It could have been that they weren't numbered because of a VERY HIGH infant mortality rate meaning a lot of the under a month kids might have been unlikely to live. Numbering them would have then produced an unreliable headcount (when several died while the count was being reported).
    That doesn't explain why females were considered less valuable than males, and why killing fetuses resulted in no religiously mandated punishment while the death after that would have resulting in the "murderer" losing their own life. Saying "there is a high chance they might have died anyway" is not a very good argument, especially when you live in a society which believes that God knows the future. It also doesn't explain the instances where "God" kills fetuses when targeting the "sin" of a third party it doesn't like.

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    although i'm pro-choice politically, i would probably view Christianity on abortion as whatever Jesus's position was. he founded Christianity basically out of Judaism. he brings a new understanding of God and what the relationship between humankind and God is. although i couldn't find anything googling that seemed to show his take on abortion in some way (not sure what sort of abortion was even practiced at the time/in that place), i would imagine that since he was a pacifist in all his philosophy he would also not believe it to be good to kill an unborn child. he seems like the sort who considers all life sacred. however, he would i imagine also be against wars fought in God's name. Jesus after all was so non-violent and such a martyr that he will give anything asked of him, including his very life. he will not kill even in self-defense. so from this i feel i could approximate/extrapolate his position.

    that said, it doesn't really matter in the debate... since from my point of view the pro-life religious view (how it would be adopted politically into law, its application) will do much more harm to many more lives in the long run. i see it as the immoral view for that reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I wouldn't call her a nutcase but she is a totalitarian religious extremist.
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    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by queentiger View Post
    In my view the word "nutcase" is more loaded than "totalitarian religious extremist", easier to dismiss as merely an opinion. Even in the "nutcase" category, there are milder alternatives.

    At face value, there are billions of people on this planet that follow one ideology or another that has promoted mass slaughter in the past and possibly even in the present and future and which consider torture, slavery, and rape as acceptable. So even though I might consider them "totalitarian religious extremists" for that reason, it would actually be a position more common than what I consider moderate. I find it difficult to believe that so many people could truly think that way however. I have the same view for something like "nutcasery", but I suppose it's perfectly possible that according to my standard, most people are in the "deplorables" category. It probably doesn't really help to label them as such, as though I can shame them into being more acceptable by my standard. The reality is probably that these people did not accept the supernatural claims of their ideologies through reason, and hence, it may be very difficult to reason them out of it. I just hope that something I say sticks and they'll have an "Aha!" moment and realise that what they follow isn't right and far removed from what they believe is acceptable aesthetically and from what it is rational to believe in terms of evidence.

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    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by queentiger View Post
    Religious nutcases do tend to be like that.
    Although admittedly considering her "Homophobia is a really stupid word" comment in the first post of this thread, it is quite tempting to not balk at calling her a religious nutcase.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    although i'm pro-choice politically, i would probably view Christianity on abortion as whatever Jesus's position was. he founded Christianity basically out of Judaism. he brings a new understanding of God and what the relationship between humankind and God is. although i couldn't find anything googling that seemed to show his take on abortion in some way (not sure what sort of abortion was even practiced at the time/in that place), i would imagine that since he was a pacifist in all his philosophy he would also not believe it to be good to kill an unborn child. he seems like the sort who considers all life sacred. however, he would i imagine also be against wars fought in God's name. Jesus after all was so non-violent and such a martyr that he will give anything asked of him, including his very life. he will not kill even in self-defense. so from this i feel i could approximate/extrapolate his position.

    that said, it doesn't really matter in the debate... since from my point of view the pro-life religious view (how it would be adopted politically into law, its application) will do much more harm to many more lives in the long run. i see it as the immoral view for that reason.
    Many of the verses attributed to Jesus aren't very peaceful, although some are.

    https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt_list.html

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    xerxe xerxe's Avatar
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    I have suspicions about the real motives (whether or not they're aware of them) of "pro-life" Conservatives: they're in it in order to create more compliant members of society. Like heavy debt or a mortgage, the burden of parenthood is a powerful mechanism of enforcing risk-aversion, compliance to bosses, and social order.

    People (of any political stripe, Conservative or otherwise) that are sincere about protecting 'life' tend to support a welfare state or other egalitarian mechanisms.
    Last edited by xerxe; 10-28-2020 at 05:13 PM. Reason: trimmed

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Many of the verses attributed to Jesus aren't very peaceful, although some are.

    https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt_list.html
    when you realize christ is a nazbol

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    xerxe xerxe's Avatar
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    This is anecdotal, so feel free to ignore it; but, from what I've observed, when you have a kid, a psychological switch is triggered that makes you buy into the existing system. You become less radicalized, less open to changing the system, and more accepting of arbitrary rules designed to ensure stability.

    I saw a documentary about an American White Supremacist who left that way of life after becoming a parent. His reasoning was that he wanted to make the world a better place for his daughter. In fact, this is a complete non-sequitur; if you truly believed that other races were inferior, making the world a better place for your daughter would involve the marginalization up to possible extermination of other races.
    Last edited by xerxe; 10-28-2020 at 09:05 PM. Reason: slight rewording

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    People (of any political stripe, Conservative or otherwise) that are sincere about protecting 'life' tend to support a welfare state or other egalitarian mechanisms.
    precisely, pro-life means every life matters, its hardships and struggles matter, the threats to its survival matter, even when someone screws up royally their life still matters. i don't view it as something from which one can pick and choose, and i see views that might, say, involve creating harsh laws for pregnant women while otherwise screwing over poor women and single-mothers as completely disingenuous. it's like the laws will "save the baby" but it's okay if that child grows up in terrible circumstances, in terrible poverty, without proper access to medical care or education, etc. if that child later becomes a violent criminal then advocate the death penalty. it's just completely contradictory.

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    xerxe xerxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    precisely, pro-life means every life matters, its hardships and struggles matter, the threats to its survival matter, even when someone screws up royally their life still matters. i don't view it as something from which one can pick and choose, and i see views that might, say, involve creating harsh laws for pregnant women while otherwise screwing over poor women and single-mothers as completely disingenuous. it's like the laws will "save the baby" but it's okay if that child grows up in terrible circumstances, in terrible poverty, without proper access to medical care or education, etc. if that child later becomes a violent criminal then advocate the death penalty. it's just completely contradictory.
    Yeah, pretty much this.

    Personally, I think that a cradle-to-adulthood welfare system (which includes cheap daycare) is the only possible compromise on the issue of abortion.

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    Anyway, I don't like abortion, but once again, the world isn't nice, nature isn't sweet, life is hard. Etc.
    It's not an ideal scenerio yeah. I don't think women who get abortions are grinning evilly at the aspect of killing a human life like some right-wingers portray them as. Their should be rules and time frames against it after a certain point which there already is. And I do think for moderation/balance purposes maybe there should be a limit to how many abortions one woman can get but idk about that either. I don't have a uterus, life can't grow inside me so I feel kinda dumb making that call anyway.

    I just don't think it's very fair how some right-wingers show pictures of innocent sleeping babies and compare that with fetuses etc. It's like kinda bad ESE emotional manipulation to me. They aren't the same thing. Potentiality is never reality to me. Maybe also why I never cared about the potential slayers on Buffy? lol.



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