Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 41 to 70 of 70

Thread: Ni egos vs Se in close relationship

  1. #41
    I don't play, I slay. Lolita's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Location
    Near Whole Foods
    TIM
    SEE-N™ WPEL™ 863
    Posts
    1,146
    Mentioned
    85 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    BTW, when I went to Vegas earlier this month with my SEI bestie, we did see a cirque de soleil show, Zumanity. I would have preferred strip tease and my friend said it’s too straight (he’s gay). So there’s some stuff that opened up. Not sure if Vegas is going to shut down again but it’s a great relief from building so much cabin fever.

  2. #42

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    2,116
    Mentioned
    108 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    I will add this as update (copypasting from another post of mine)

    also just the other day I had enough of someone doing passive aggro crap and I really got not just angry at them but also kinda mean (not totally, I reserve actual meanness only for really crap people) and just aggressive overall and issued a hard ultimatum with threats. They were a Ni ego person. The end result - well, yeah, have a guess. They managed to mirror my attitude eventually and tried to be even more mean and aggressive back at me LOL frankly I enjoyed it. I'm serious, I enjoy that more than passive aggressive distant silent treatment running away etc crap. Then we had a discussion and got to some agreement OK.
    It's not the healthiest way to handle that, apparently. (I've been reading up on this kinda stuff)
    do a google if you're interested in what works better

  3. #43

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    2,116
    Mentioned
    108 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    I DO think though, I have this theory that Si/Ne valuing is way better for relationships in a realistic sense than Se/Ni is. Ne valuing seeing more potential hazards from a wider variety of sources (so can defend against them better) and Si just mediating & smoothing out difficulties more naturally, rather than about one's own willpower. Se/Ni takes more work or something...

    Relationships work on compromise and 'talking through things together' like a boring Delta sitcom. *tries not to throw up* Se doesn't want to compromise and Si just does it so much easier.
    Do Si-Ne types inherently have it easier? Why would they? I know a Si-Ne type who's super depressed in an incompatible marriage and just stews in their disatisfaction; and I know a Ni-Se dual couple who have sexy interactions 25 years in and strategize together but only rarely seem to have disagreements.

    Do Ni-Se types HATE to communicate about their relationship? why would they? maybe they don't communicate how Delta couples would. Doesn't mean they don't have their own enjoyed language.

    Do Se types more than other types detest compromise?

    Who thinks Martha Stewart is super into compromising? Not me. And Se types...I've seen them DELIGHTED when they figure out something their partner or interlocuter wants and that 'we can combine forces to get you'...and that kind of behavior has the same prosocial and even sacrificial element that compromising has....they are giving their resources to help you....I've seen a Gamma sf relieved and grateful when I reworked a game's rules so that play retained a sense of urgency but wasn't pitting the person against someone else. Maybe Se is not always unwilling to compromise. I think Se types perceive the objects of the current world very well. I think they see kinetic energy and logistics very well. I think that because they see these things well, they are likely to act in those realms. I don't see that that makes them LESS likely to collaborate or less likely to compromise. Ever had a discussion with a LII who disagreed with you about something? They aren't tripping over themselves to compromise.

  4. #44
    Hot Scalding Gayser's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The evolved form of Warm Soapy Water
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    14,902
    Mentioned
    661 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Thank you. Your response is strangely in line with what I subtly grasp of Ni. What I’ve described is from both male and female IEIs I’ve been friends with for many years, some going back to childhood. I think if we didn’t know each other from so long ago and if I had never interfered and stood up for them back then, we wouldn’t know each other now. They just latched onto me and for whatever reason maintains communication with me even though I’m distant and detached, but I didn’t know why I’ve been like that to them. I’ve chalked it up to “growing apart” but I’ve never felt close to any of them. It’s only been very recently I realized why I felt that way, and it’s because instead of them making my life easy, they’ve made more work for me by coming to me with their problems (like their coworkers bullying them) but after I fix their problems, their sensitivity doesn’t subside, and they cry about me being an “insensitive asshole” to them too after all these years because I also tell them EXACTLY what their problems are and why they keep getting into the same bloody mess they always do. They want me to fight for them after they’ve incited war and even though I’m unrelated to the conflict, I’m stupid and felt compelled for whatever reason to fix it for them (I’ve actually cause some of their coworkers and even a manager fired because they’ve told me they’ve been bullied by those people when I never even met them). After I fix messes they’ve caused, and I told them they’re too much of an easy target, they treat me like I’ve victimized them. At which point, I detach from them and silence ensues. It’s literally the cycle of my relationship with every IEI. They call me and I’ll come out of the woodwork but after I get penalized for “victimizing” them, I’ll go back to the woodwork. All of them independently have told me that I’m someone they can always depend on and they could always call me and I’ll come back. It’s like they summon me and poof I’m there.


    Yeah hmm idk I don't really get attached to people that way myself. Even when I was younger and more naive. I mean I will admire them somewhat if they protected me but I won't really start following them around like a puppy dog either if they do that for me. I also will realistically think it's manipulation or maybe they decided to be nice at the time, or they obviously were being nice to me for their own benefit etc. My heart might like it a lot sure, but my head analyzes it differently. ((and why I avoid being a sycophant to SLE or anybody else)) Some people think I just lead with my heart only and not really. Or I'd probably already be dead lol.

    I never even ask the SLE to do this btw , they just usually take it on themselves and do it for me. Then might blame me for being 'weaker' for them - but it's like I didn't even ask them to tank for me and they just did it? So it makes me think they might like me or have a soft spot for me because that seems like a bizarre thing to do to somebody you at least don't respect a little bit. (although yes that's where I logically think of how they were just doing it for their own advantage etc.) It's like I am confusing their shitty Fi and it's like 'wtf' to them lol.

    And considering how much I avoid prison/getting in trouble compared to them cuz my Fi isn't dogshit, I even often feel 'powerful' or more superior to them in the first place and I kinda like that. Like with my SLE crushes- I liked them not because I felt like 'weak' but because I ironically felt like I was the stronger one lol. The person who wins/gets power in world after all isn't always the toughest one really but the one that can play innocent the best.

    And as for bullying etc I think some people are just huge assholes no matter what but it's true that you teach people how they are allowed to treat you. If your mental state is victim magnet that's all the world will throw back to you. But before a person blames themselves completely- and diagnoses themselves with a mental disorder, they should in fact realize the problem is probably less to do with them and other people and more like the environment is just very wrong for them personally. And I view my sensitivity as a strength not a weakness lol - how sensitive I am makes me realize just how much of something is right for me - it's Fi suicide to not be this way.



  5. #45
    I don't play, I slay. Lolita's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Location
    Near Whole Foods
    TIM
    SEE-N™ WPEL™ 863
    Posts
    1,146
    Mentioned
    85 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Beta quadra: to strengthen its ideals, is highly indicative of the Spartan lifestyle...
    It’s not about Quadra values because it’s specifically Se cognition. Se seeks out intense external experiences, what I simply call “thrills.” Se strives for intensity and consciousness is directed outward to objects and activities that arouses intensity. Keep in mind that’s just general characteristics of the Quadra values, but it doesn’t mean that the types of those Quadras adhere to it exactly or even much of it. And to clarify, Beta doesn’t seek deprivation of the senses, but suspend the comfort/passive senses (Si) due to preference of outward concrete experiences, like blood sports, for example. Places like Vegas where you can do whatever you want like drive around the Strip in an electric cart in your underwear while high and drinking a gallon of frozen margarita publicly is a very Se thing. That’s fun. I did it and Idgaf who I offended or what “collective values” I went against. No matter what, I’m still Se lead.

  6. #46
    Hot Scalding Gayser's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The evolved form of Warm Soapy Water
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    14,902
    Mentioned
    661 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Do Si-Ne types inherently have it easier? Why would they? I know a Si-Ne type who's super depressed in an incompatible marriage and just stews in their disatisfaction; and I know a Ni-Se dual couple who have sexy interactions 25 years in and strategize together but only rarely seem to have disagreements.


    Oh don't get me wrong. I don't think anybody has it "easier" in that vague of a way. I think life is hard for almost everybody cuz no matter what ur doing life is pain. (emo victim IEI goth but it's true lol)

    But I mean I think it feels to me that objectively a lot more Ne/Si are in relationships in the first place (regardless of how good they are or not) cuz the nature of the functions makes that more appropriate. Se/Ni seems harder to start, but maybe greater potential for greatness and wonder if it can get started?

    I won't get in a relationship unless I know it's going to be really good. I don't try/test anything out- partly cuz of myself and the functions I value. I know my own Se valuing is going to clash with some Si stuff.

    It sometimes even seems Ne/Si will stay in something 'just to have something' rather than to not have anything at all. I'd rather not have anything at all. Either it's really good or I'm avoiding it lol (relationship wise)





  7. #47
    Haikus SGF's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Location
    ┌П┐(ಠ_ಠ)
    TIM
    LSI-H™
    Posts
    2,165
    Mentioned
    181 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SnatchYourWeave View Post
    It’s not about Quadra values because it’s specifically Se cognition. Se seeks out intense external experiences, what I simply call “thrills.” Se strives for intensity and consciousness is directed outward to objects and activities that arouses intensity. Keep in mind that’s just general characteristics of the Quadra values, but it doesn’t mean that the types of those Quadras adhere to it exactly or even much of it. And to clarify, Beta doesn’t seek deprivation of the senses, but suspend the comfort/passive senses (Si) due to preference of outward concrete experiences, like blood sports, for example. Places like Vegas where you can do whatever you want like drive around the Strip in an electric cart in your underwear while high and drinking a gallon of frozen margarita publicly is a very Se thing. That’s fun. I did it and Idgaf who I offended or what “collective values” I went against. No matter what, I’m still Se lead.
    I think you are SLE, no doubt about that imo.

    In my case as far as Gulenko's beta quadra descriptions go, I'm a very stereotypical example of one :/.. I found it weird that he thought I was beta, because I skipped mentioning these things, as it is not something that is valued even here. Most societies today have Gamma values, the US especially and ppl reflect that despite having different set of cognitive functions imo. It always made me miserable tbh..

    Recently I have been interacting with an EIE and oddly despite how different our approaches to life are, it surprised me to see just how similar our conclusions and outlook on life is.. Since the interaction started I have discovered several things about myself and its snowballing into some kind of strange growth phase in my life. Very odd.

  8. #48
    I don't play, I slay. Lolita's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Location
    Near Whole Foods
    TIM
    SEE-N™ WPEL™ 863
    Posts
    1,146
    Mentioned
    85 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post

    Yeah hmm idk I don't really get attached to people that way myself. Even when I was younger and more naive. I mean I will admire them somewhat if they protected me but I won't really start following them around like a puppy dog either if they do that for me. I also will realistically think it's manipulation or maybe they decided to be nice at the time, or they obviously were being nice to me for their own benefit etc. My heart might like it a lot sure, but my head analyzes it differently. ((and why I avoid being a sycophant to SLE or anybody else)) Some people think I just lead with my heart only and not really. Or I'd probably already be dead lol.

    I never even ask the SLE to do this btw , they just usually take it on themselves and do it for me. Then might blame me for being 'weaker' for them - but it's like I didn't even ask them to tank for me and they just did it? So it makes me think they might like me or have a soft spot for me because that seems like a bizarre thing to do to somebody you at least don't respect a little bit. (although yes that's where I logically think of how they were just doing it for their own advantage etc.) It's like I am confusing their shitty Fi and it's like 'wtf' to them lol.

    And considering how much I avoid prison/getting in trouble compared to them cuz my Fi isn't dogshit, I even often feel 'powerful' or more superior to them in the first place and I kinda like that. Like with my SLE crushes- I liked them not because I felt like 'weak' but because I ironically felt like I was the stronger one lol. The person who wins/gets power in world after all isn't always the toughest one really but the one that can play innocent the best.

    And as for bullying etc I think some people are just huge assholes no matter what but it's true that you teach people how they are allowed to treat you. If your mental state is victim magnet that's all the world will throw back to you. But before a person blames themselves completely- and diagnoses themselves with a mental disorder, they should in fact realize the problem is probably less to do with them and other people and more like the environment is just very wrong for them personally. And I view my sensitivity as a strength not a weakness lol - how sensitive I am makes me realize just how much of something is right for me - it's Fi suicide to not be this way.
    It’s interesting you said that problems aren’t because of the person but it’s outside of the person, like their environment. That’s what all my IEIs have told me and I’ve replied back that they’re weak and it is their fault for being weak. I think problems are always internal, and the external world is where I do have more control. I believe that if the internal/interior of a person is disorderly and uncontrollable, they’re weak and can’t control the external/exterior. I suppose that’s a rather Se view of things.

    To be clear, as I’ve said before, they never asked me to do anything directly. They tell me things like how much they’ve been bullied by so and so, and it’s unfair they always have to go through this and that. That in turn incites me to be livid and I do things for them which ends up removing their problems. They didn’t hang around me like some lovesick puppy, but they do admire me and praise me a lot (or tell me how I disappoint them by being pushy against them). They just keep maintaining friendship with me, as I accept them for their flaws but they know there’s something wrong between us in that although I may never go against them, but if they go against me, I’ll leave them for good (I have left them and they come back to me). But now that I think of it in the socionics framework, it is 4D Fi manipulation and my analysis of SLE-IEI relation is very true. My Fi is total dogshit and even a slight ping from the wrong angle pisses me off. But if anyone can incite my anger for them, it’s easy for me to do things seen as “violation” of Fi morality but if it’s upheld by Ti legality and there’s Te proof, I’ll do it. I didn’t realize it when I replied earlier that the IEIs I know have rooted history with me from long ago, made me feel like I’m needed and then bank on my self-righteous nature to do things for them- that’s 4D Fi manipulation!! SLE cannot combat subtleties of Ni, no question, but eventually they do recognize Fi being worked on them and then lash out. I call that the “Henry VIII effect” by which discarding people closest to you that are suspected of manipulating you is the only way to purge the snake’s nest.

  9. #49
    I don't play, I slay. Lolita's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Location
    Near Whole Foods
    TIM
    SEE-N™ WPEL™ 863
    Posts
    1,146
    Mentioned
    85 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    I think you are SLE, no doubt about that imo.

    In my case as far as Gulenko's beta quadra descriptions go, I'm a very stereotypical example of one :/.. I found it weird that he thought I was beta, because I skipped mentioning these things, as it is not something that is valued even here. Most societies today have Gamma values, the US especially and ppl reflect that despite having different set of cognitive functions imo. It always made me miserable tbh..

    Recently I have been interacting with an EIE and oddly despite how different our approaches to life are, it surprised me to see just how similar our conclusions and outlook on life is.. Since the interaction started I have discovered several things about myself and its snowballing into some kind of strange growth phase in my life. Very odd.
    LOL you’re LSI. Ti lead is Spartan in lifestyle because of the nature of Ti- abstract, ideological, philosophical. Think of LSI Stalin. He wanted to eradicate capitalism (ideology) and excesses that went along with capitalism and he had SLE Zhukov who wasn’t ideological but the most powerful physical enforcer to dominate the battlefield all in the name of communism. Zhukov, being Se lead, was busted for keeping some luxury trinkets during war looting and Stalin lectured him about that. Se lead is Spartan in spirit but very physical and materialist. I can handle roughing it if there’s no other way, but if I can choose, I like very nice, expensive things. I’m disciplined internally, but externally, I’ll do what I want.

    EIE is very community/collective based- like involvement in Church and so forth. I think LSI likes the idea of community but not so much when they’re immersed it. People like the idea, or rather their limited idea of the suggestive function. But to be immersed in that suggestive function, the reality hardly is appealing as they’ve imagined it would be.

    In terms of Quadras, SLE is closer to Gamma. SLE has 4D Te- which is very Gamma capitalistic. Fight for the team, but we always fight for ourselves first and foremost.

  10. #50
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    North Italy
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    16,806
    Mentioned
    245 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I don't know if you're talking about Ni dominants or if you include Ni creative as well.

    I've had my share of conflicts with Se dominants when they want me to do something, suddenly, something that benefits them and wastes my time / I have other plans. In that case I simply say no, I'm not going to do it. They often try to "convince" me, in many ways, even with physical force, and that doesn't end well. In those cases I only say yes either if they are in a position to harm me (for example a boss treathening to fire me), or if I can gain something from the transition (for example, my SEE-Se friend sometimes calls me for a "sudden" bike tour while I'm bored to death - i'll say yes).

    P.s. i have never had similar problems with Se creatives.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  11. #51
    I don't play, I slay. Lolita's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Location
    Near Whole Foods
    TIM
    SEE-N™ WPEL™ 863
    Posts
    1,146
    Mentioned
    85 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Ni egos vs Se in close relationship

    Here’s EIE Matt Stone and SLE Trey Parker. Matt is actually very comfortable with dealing with interviews and the public, crowds, and social stuff, knows how to be very engaging and livening up the emotional atmosphere due to 4D Fe. You can tell Trey is just annoyed and pissed off and this is not a sort of Fe thing he wants to deal with. He’s results oriented and don’t care about talking about the process and 1D Fi wanting to get the hell out of there. Matt definitely keeps things sailing when it comes to people/social aspects. It’s funny because my relationship with EIEs is that they do keep me from saying “regrettable” things publicly. They know I get bored with group activities where I’m not doing anything but having to listen to other people or talk about my feelings or thoughts about something I don’t want to, they’ll keep the atmosphere on emotional highs, sort of like an umbrella to shield me.

    https://youtu.be/WBjJI_H5Jc0


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  12. #52

    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    TIM
    SLE-Ti-N
    Posts
    441
    Mentioned
    21 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Well idk I always thought 'meaning' was more Fi than Ni. I do agree with you on the Fe though. I quite enjoy Fe in relationships and it's underrated in a Te/Fi valuing society. ((USA as a whole is a very Gamma society I think.))
    IDK, what kind of meaning you mean here. I meant the future thingy that's Ni. Or maybe Ni with some emotions in the background yeah. IEIs seem good at that sortof thing tho lol

    I think Ive lived a lot in gamma-ish societies too. Mix of beta-gamma sorta. It's okay by me that way.

  13. #53

    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    TIM
    SLE-Ti-N
    Posts
    441
    Mentioned
    21 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    It's not the healthiest way to handle that, apparently. (I've been reading up on this kinda stuff)
    do a google if you're interested in what works better
    I mean I'm done with the idea of always doing the "healthy response". I'm not particularly interested in what's IN THEORY healthier or better or whatever. More interested in what actually works.

    Thanks though. If you want to share more on your thoughts on this, feel free to.


    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    Do Si-Ne types inherently have it easier? Why would they? I know a Si-Ne type who's super depressed in an incompatible marriage and just stews in their disatisfaction; and I know a Ni-Se dual couple who have sexy interactions 25 years in and strategize together but only rarely seem to have disagreements.

    Do Ni-Se types HATE to communicate about their relationship? why would they? maybe they don't communicate how Delta couples would. Doesn't mean they don't have their own enjoyed language.

    Do Se types more than other types detest compromise?

    Who thinks Martha Stewart is super into compromising? Not me. And Se types...I've seen them DELIGHTED when they figure out something their partner or interlocuter wants and that 'we can combine forces to get you'...and that kind of behavior has the same prosocial and even sacrificial element that compromising has....they are giving their resources to help you....I've seen a Gamma sf relieved and grateful when I reworked a game's rules so that play retained a sense of urgency but wasn't pitting the person against someone else. Maybe Se is not always unwilling to compromise. I think Se types perceive the objects of the current world very well. I think they see kinetic energy and logistics very well. I think that because they see these things well, they are likely to act in those realms. I don't see that that makes them LESS likely to collaborate or less likely to compromise. Ever had a discussion with a LII who disagreed with you about something? They aren't tripping over themselves to compromise.
    Oh yeah, I liked the way you described the Se delight lol.

  14. #54

    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    TIM
    SLE-Ti-N
    Posts
    441
    Mentioned
    21 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SnatchYourWeave View Post
    Thank you. Your response is strangely in line with what I subtly grasp of Ni. What I’ve described is from both male and female IEIs I’ve been friends with for many years, some going back to childhood. I think if we didn’t know each other from so long ago and if I had never interfered and stood up for them back then, we wouldn’t know each other now. They just latched onto me and for whatever reason maintains communication with me even though I’m distant and detached, but I didn’t know why I’ve been like that to them. I’ve chalked it up to “growing apart” but I’ve never felt close to any of them. It’s only been very recently I realized why I felt that way, and it’s because instead of them making my life easy, they’ve made more work for me by coming to me with their problems (like their coworkers bullying them) but after I fix their problems, their sensitivity doesn’t subside, and they cry about me being an “insensitive asshole” to them too after all these years because I also tell them EXACTLY what their problems are and why they keep getting into the same bloody mess they always do. They want me to fight for them after they’ve incited war and even though I’m unrelated to the conflict, I’m stupid and felt compelled for whatever reason to fix it for them (I’ve actually cause some of their coworkers and even a manager fired because they’ve told me they’ve been bullied by those people when I never even met them). After I fix messes they’ve caused, and I told them they’re too much of an easy target, they treat me like I’ve victimized them. At which point, I detach from them and silence ensues. It’s literally the cycle of my relationship with every IEI. They call me and I’ll come out of the woodwork but after I get penalized for “victimizing” them, I’ll go back to the woodwork. All of them independently have told me that I’m someone they can always depend on and they could always call me and I’ll come back. It’s like they summon me and poof I’m there.

    I’ve thought about this a lot lately, and now I truly wonder how many of those people were actually deserving of what I’ve done to them, that I’ve ruined on some level all because I believed my weak friends were being cruelly treated and did things for them that they couldn’t do. I don’t think of my actions and I don’t feel guilty for anything I’ve done, but I’ve not really ever sat down and pondered on that score. Now that I’m able to piece together an explanation of “why” thanks to socionics, I can’t help it but wonder if these relations are unavoidable. They somehow know, probably innately, that I do what I do and I’m not devoid of a conscience but I’m amoral and not prone to feeling guilt or remorse. And if this is the relationship between SLE-IEI, then it just naturally repeats itself in nature. I’m amazed at how Augusta recognizes these invisible links between “types.”
    I personally stopped that cycle with IEIs

  15. #55

    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    TIM
    SLE-Ti-N
    Posts
    441
    Mentioned
    21 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I don't know if you're talking about Ni dominants or if you include Ni creative as well.

    I've had my share of conflicts with Se dominants when they want me to do something, suddenly, something that benefits them and wastes my time / I have other plans. In that case I simply say no, I'm not going to do it. They often try to "convince" me, in many ways, even with physical force, and that doesn't end well. In those cases I only say yes either if they are in a position to harm me (for example a boss treathening to fire me), or if I can gain something from the transition (for example, my SEE-Se friend sometimes calls me for a "sudden" bike tour while I'm bored to death - i'll say yes).

    P.s. i have never had similar problems with Se creatives.
    I included all Ni egos really. Your response is fine, I was discussing complete and even passive-aggressive avoidance rather than an assertive "no" response, lol. Also it does matter what other plans someone has and why, when it's in the context of a close relationship.

    EDIT: How did you not have this problem with Se creatives? What strategies do they use with you?

  16. #56
    Your family thinks I'm a criminal
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Your Mom's Pussy
    TIM
    BAMF
    Posts
    843
    Mentioned
    125 Post(s)
    Tagged
    9 Thread(s)

    Default

    If I had a dual like an EIE or IEI, I’d be happy. They can do all the unicornisms and deal with people and I can force things through and get told off when I offend people with my direct bluntness

    And I can get the Fe judgemental stare:



    And then it can be perfectly acceptable for me to respond like this:



    As we are duals and people can see the love ooze from every crevice of our combined being.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  17. #57
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    North Italy
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    16,806
    Mentioned
    245 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    I included all Ni egos really. Your response is fine, I was discussing complete and even passive-aggressive avoidance rather than an assertive "no" response, lol. Also it does matter what other plans someone has and why, when it's in the context of a close relationship.
    I´m sure it matters as a principle but Se doms are in the moment kind of people and will try to be forceful to convince you to change your plans or do as they say. Of course that´s their normal mode of operation - for some of them - so it doesn´t feel special to them. But for people watching, it looks like a big fight.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  18. #58

    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    TIM
    SLE-Ti-N
    Posts
    441
    Mentioned
    21 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I´m sure it matters as a principle but Se doms are in the moment kind of people and will try to be forceful to convince you to change your plans or do as they say. Of course that´s their normal mode of operation - for some of them - so it doesn´t feel special to them. But for people watching, it looks like a big fight.
    Well it can become a big fight sometimes lol. BTW I'm not sure if you saw my edit to my post above. With Se creatives you prefer their brand of forcefulness? Or are they like more tuned into your plans naturally, or?

  19. #59
    Adam Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    TIM
    ENTJ-1Te 8w7 sx/so
    Posts
    16,228
    Mentioned
    1553 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    Well it can become a big fight sometimes lol. BTW I'm not sure if you saw my edit to my post above. With Se creatives you prefer their brand of forcefulness? Or are they like more tuned into your plans naturally, or?
    Lol. With Se-creatives, Se is more moderated.

    The LSI ex-GF was always asking me to do things for her, or to take her somewhere or to fix something around her house or to use my credit card to buy stuff. I once told her that I didn't like this tendency of hers, and she said "But I don't abuse it, do I." And I thought about that for a minute and realized that No, she didn't abuse it. Far from it, actually.

  20. #60
    End's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    TIM
    ILI-Ni sp/sx
    Posts
    1,857
    Mentioned
    293 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Ok, I have Ni in my ego block and while I can't speak for everyone, I can say that I spend a huge amount of time inside my head running future scenarios on present situations.

    Sort of like IBM's Deep Blue beating the human chess champions by methodically running every available chess move into it's multiply branching future, 1000 moves in advance.

    And every tiny fact matters in projecting the future. "She wore a violet blouse and white shorts on our date. That means she is interested in sex but doesn't have a lot of experience and wants to stay pure for now."

    So, @grumpyvic81, your Ni-egos have taken in all the facts that you presented them with, and they have walked a path into the future (now present) with you based on what you presented to them because they see that as an acceptable path, and then you change things and they withdraw.

    You may have shown them something that leads to a future that is unacceptable to them.

    Which is an elaborate way of saying that they don't want to go there. I don't think they are bullshitting at all. Not at all.

    *EDIT*
    As for Ni-egos not wanting to discuss the problem and instead, simply disappearing, they by definition have low Se and are not great at real world actions or confrontations. I think that an Ni-ego, once they see that something is not going to work out, consider the problem to be similar to turning a steam locomotive into a cloud of butterflies. Not gonna happen, no point in discussing it, I'm onto some other path now, good luck.

    I believe that close relationships are built on each person valuing the things they get from the other person that make their lives better, and ignoring the things that aren't so good. But everyone has a different point at where they draw the line between the tolerable and the intolerable.
    I agree with most everything except that last part. Real world actions I get but confrontations? I mean, I confront people all the damn time when they piss me off. It's not so much the concept of turning the steam engine into butterflies, but rather, the more mundane question of what are the odds that this thing's gonna explode in my face if I shovel another load of coal into the damn thing? If that answer is "probably" than yeah, I'm running like a Chemistry Major who just triggered a metal fluorine fire/found out the hard way why ClF3 was too much for even the most evilest of Germans or why FOOF is so aptly yet also inadequately named. Later cases assume they somehow had time to react because, oh dear lord in Heaven. Those things take the concept of "runaway exothermic reaction" to levels only hardcore Sci-Fi nerds with a flare for the dramatic or fans of the campiest of shounen manga can adequately envision/describe.

    If the answer is "nah, we're still way below the danger point and I got a ton of safety measures in place, it can take that and then some and even if it can't I'm still safe" then the confrontation happens with enthusiasm because, well, I've gamed out the fact that I'm not likely to die if I do so I can safely roll the dice and hope to be pleasantly surprised. Still wearing a good pair of running shoes just in case but I'm pretty sure I got this.

  21. #61

    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    TIM
    SLE-Ti-N
    Posts
    441
    Mentioned
    21 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Lol. With Se-creatives, Se is more moderated.

    The LSI ex-GF was always asking me to do things for her, or to take her somewhere or to fix something around her house or to use my credit card to buy stuff. I once told her that I didn't like this tendency of hers, and she said "But I don't abuse it, do I." And I thought about that for a minute and realized that No, she didn't abuse it. Far from it, actually.
    When would it start to feel like it's being abused, for you as an LIE? But actually I'm more interested in....you not liking that tendency of hers. Would you think an ESI would be softer about it or would you see ESIs as plain less demanding than beta STs?


    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    I agree with most everything except that last part. Real world actions I get but confrontations? I mean, I confront people all the damn time when they piss me off. It's not so much the concept of turning the steam engine into butterflies, but rather, the more mundane question of what are the odds that this thing's gonna explode in my face if I shovel another load of coal into the damn thing? If that answer is "probably" than yeah, I'm running like a Chemistry Major who just triggered a metal fluorine fire/found out the hard way why ClF3 was too much for even the most evilest of Germans or why FOOF is so aptly yet also inadequately named. Later cases assume they somehow had time to react because, oh dear lord in Heaven. Those things take the concept of "runaway exothermic reaction" to levels only hardcore Sci-Fi nerds with a flare for the dramatic or fans of the campiest of shounen manga can adequately envision/describe.

    If the answer is "nah, we're still way below the danger point and I got a ton of safety measures in place, it can take that and then some and even if it can't I'm still safe" then the confrontation happens with enthusiasm because, well, I've gamed out the fact that I'm not likely to die if I do so I can safely roll the dice and hope to be pleasantly surprised. Still wearing a good pair of running shoes just in case but I'm pretty sure I got this.
    lool, thanks, you gave me a good laugh.

  22. #62
    Adam Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    TIM
    ENTJ-1Te 8w7 sx/so
    Posts
    16,228
    Mentioned
    1553 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    When would it start to feel like it's being abused, for you as an LIE? But actually I'm more interested in....you not liking that tendency of hers. Would you think an ESI would be softer about it or would you see ESIs as plain less demanding than beta STs?
    I honestly don't know how an ESI would be in a LTR. I've never gotten close enough to one to give her my credit card.

    I have a great ILI friend who is married to an ESI, and he said that she ran up over $10k on their cards and she has no idea what she spent that on. He went nuts. I thought he came close to ending the marriage, but instead he just refinanced his house to get out from the 29.9% interest rate on that card debt.

    I chalk this up to them not being able to be on the same page. Activity relations can be fun and easy to start, but your Activity partner is not a complementary version of you.

  23. #63

    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    TIM
    SLE-Ti-N
    Posts
    441
    Mentioned
    21 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I honestly don't know how an ESI would be in a LTR. I've never gotten close enough to one to give her my credit card.

    I have a great ILI friend who is married to an ESI, and he said that she ran up over $10k on their cards and she has no idea what she spent that on. He went nuts. I thought he came close to ending the marriage, but instead he just refinanced his house to get out from the 29.9% interest rate on that card debt.

    I chalk this up to them not being able to be on the same page. Activity relations can be fun and easy to start, but your Activity partner is not a complementary version of you.
    Never met an ESI as irresponsible with money as that tbh

    But ofc this isn't type dependent per se.

  24. #64
    Adam Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    TIM
    ENTJ-1Te 8w7 sx/so
    Posts
    16,228
    Mentioned
    1553 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    Never met an ESI as irresponsible with money as that tbh

    But ofc this isn't type dependent per se.
    To be entirely honest, I think the ESI was making a plea to preserve her marriage. "See how I need your mad ILI money-handling skills? Pay attention to me, you damned introvert."

    She somehow made it to age 40 as a single woman who didn't bankrupt herself, so she's not irresponsible with money. Although from what I have seen of ESI's, they don't have a clear vision of how to be efficient with money. The fact that she didn't have anything to show for the money spent indicates that she was buying herself little gifts to make up for what was lacking in her marriage.

  25. #65
    FreelancePoliceman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    TIM
    LII-Ne
    Posts
    5,701
    Mentioned
    524 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    Never met an ESI as irresponsible with money as that tbh

    But ofc this isn't type dependent per se.
    I know one ESI who married rich, spent a lot of her husband's money, and then after they divorced, spent herself into bankruptcy despite receiving a good chunk of money. I know another who gets by, but even though she's in her 40s, has no vision for the future, and has been working the same deadend job for 20 years, with seemingly little motivation to find a better one.

    If they do typically have money problems, it would make sense by Model A. They're bad at getting from point A to point B (Te) and they're bad at situating themselves in a temporal narrative (Ni), so they're not even sure of what point B would look like.

  26. #66
    Adam Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    TIM
    ENTJ-1Te 8w7 sx/so
    Posts
    16,228
    Mentioned
    1553 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I know one ESI who married rich, spent a lot of her husband's money, and then after they divorced, spent herself into bankruptcy despite receiving a good chunk of money. I know another who gets by, but even though she's in her 40s, has no vision for the future, and has been working the same deadend job for 20 years, with seemingly little motivation to find a better one.

    If they do typically have money problems, it would make sense by Model A. They're bad at getting from point A to point B (Te) and they're bad at situating themselves in a temporal narrative (Ni), so they're not even sure of what point B would look like.
    @FreelancePoliceman, the bolded part seems entirely accurate, IME.

  27. #67
    Rebelondeck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    1,929
    Mentioned
    175 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    By themselves, the perspectives are complementary and likely sources of disagreement so a good relationship will depend on a lot of mitigating factors - not just type.

    Ni versus Se
    closed versus open
    me versus them
    who I am versus who they are
    relative versus absolute
    I have it versus they have it
    anchor versus look around
    image versus substance
    hold on versus let go
    what we know versus what's out there
    system versus component
    future versus now
    top-down versus bottom-up
    caution versus opportunity
    connection versus detachment
    what can be gained versus what can be discovered
    compare versus accept
    context versus fact
    personal versus objective

    a.k.a. I/O

  28. #68
    End's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    TIM
    ILI-Ni sp/sx
    Posts
    1,857
    Mentioned
    293 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I honestly don't know how an ESI would be in a LTR. I've never gotten close enough to one to give her my credit card.

    I have a great ILI friend who is married to an ESI, and he said that she ran up over $10k on their cards and she has no idea what she spent that on. He went nuts. I thought he came close to ending the marriage, but instead he just refinanced his house to get out from the 29.9% interest rate on that card debt.

    I chalk this up to them not being able to be on the same page. Activity relations can be fun and easy to start, but your Activity partner is not a complementary version of you.
    That's essentially how I've always conceived of the "activity" relation. It's so fun because you both think the other gets what you're going for all the way until they don't. They manage to miss the mark in just such a perfect manner that you both don't realize how off your collective visions were up until ya both realized it. Like, if you both sabotaged each other's sights in a marksmanship competition as best ya both could and yet, exactly because ya both did that...

    Ya both hit the bullseye so close it's hard for anyone to tell who won at first glance. Your mutual malice resulted in a result that almost resulted in each of you achieving your goals...

    I can tie this concept into things I've pointed out before, but I also want to see if anyone can put things together. Hint: What is "Eternity"?

  29. #69

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    2,116
    Mentioned
    108 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Food for thought, @grumpyvic81. I know that the general oil prosperity and the social safety net have enabled most people to live generally stress-free lives, especially compared to previous generations, and hence there are fewer crisis which your dual can help you with on a day-to-day basis. In general, this is a good thing but it does reduce the need for Duals.

    In my own life, I don't see many ESI-LIE Dual pairs. Only one, actually. Most of the LIE's and ESI's whom I know are in some varying degree of dysfunctional relationship with a non-Dual. I'm sure that each one of them chose their mates for reasons of time, expediency, and availability and have tried to make the best of it since then. It is true that long term-stability in relationships depends a lot on the health of the individuals and their respective social skills.

    I certainly know that it is hard to get an ESI to see me. It is a hundred times harder to find one who wants to be with me. So hard, in fact, that it has only happened once, and she was 22 years old. FML. I haven't given up on the idea of Duality, but I'm finding it a hard slog.
    I don't think the social safety net is strong enough that people live relatively stress-free lives, honestly. My great grandma is surprised at how much I care about things far away from me. I think they kept their worlds smaller and just made do.

    I don't think we're less stressed

    Also, I've dated several duals. I think duality exists. I've dated a LOT of non-duals. The dual dates were infinitely more date-like and less sad-boring-meh, etc.

  30. #70

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    2,116
    Mentioned
    108 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    @Adam Strange let me also say this (cba to find another thread or PM or anything), I don't think duality works nowadays. Maybe it did in the past with stricter social norms and roles in the marriage/family/community. But nowadays... We are all free to choose whatever and we are all free to keep running for the greener grass. So duality between two very clearly expressed types (i.e. strong focus on ego and zero focus on the opposite of it in the "shadow") such as you are too (and I am too in a way), it's not possible to keep it working for long. So for example your Fi lead women they don't like the lack of Fi in you after a while. Not an attack on you bc I could say the exact same about myself
    I really don't see the human animal with all its psychological challenges and the complexity of its interface with reality as less supported by duality now than previously. That we're fleshing out these models that talk about dual interaction doesn't mean all our ancestors were in dual relationships. And that we personally are this moment not does not then mean duality is no longer useful. That would be a leap for us to say

    I do really appreciate you pointing out the changes in tech and culture that might mean we have more candidates to evaluate as a potential partner. That's really interesting.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •