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Thread: Jung destroying the concept of duality

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    Default Jung destroying the concept of duality

    "For instance, if you have to explain an introverted-intuitive husband to an extrovert wife, it is a most painstaking affair because, you see, an extrovert sensation type is furtherest away from the ‐ inner experience and the rational functions.
    He adapts and behaves according to the facts as they are, and he is always caught by those facts.
    He himself is those facts.
    But if the introvert is intuitive, to him that is hell, because as soon as he is in a definite situation, he tries to find a hole where he can get out.
    To him, every given situation is just the worst that can happen to him.

    He is pinched and feels he is caught, suffocated, chained.
    He must break those fetters, because he is the man who will discover a new field. He will plant that field, and as soon as the new plants are coming up, he’s done; he’s over and no more interested.
    Others will reap what he has sown.
    When those two marry, the extrovert-sensation and the introvert-intuitive, there is trouble, I can assure you."


    Conversations with Carl Jung

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    Jung might have been right in establishing the facts, but wrong in establishing the value judgments. E.g. take the stress of a the relationship between an SLE and and IEI: if we project the one-dimensional generally accepted social constructs about what a good relationship is about, then certainly SLE-IEI duality is a dysfunctional type of relationship. But if we let go of preconceived ideas of what entails a good relationship, we can see merit in a relationship such as those between SLEs and IEIs.

    I'm very much afraid Jung hadn't detached himself enough from generally accepted constructs of his days.

    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Personal baggage including lack of maturity, biological imperatives/differences, and mental health issues (in that order) prevent or kill relationships; Jung is a very minor player because all types can easily coexist under ideal circumstances. When one closely oversees a lot of people, this becomes self-evident.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    idk as of yet. The person I got along best with and still do imo was a IEI.. because special snowflake a the time (theater, weeb, arts, weird goth-ish bookworm).. but now she refers to herself as a "raidboss monster who eats snowflakes for breakfast" .. she runs a bookstore e_e and man you don't want to get on her bad side (well I can, cus I'm speshul). She seems to be suffering trying to use that much Se tho..

    Other closer interaction with supposed EIEs (wo are not on this forum) has been.. a mixed bag tbh.
    Last edited by SGF; 10-05-2020 at 12:31 PM.

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    @Reyne, nice find! Is this from the conversations with Jung that are on youtube? Do you have the link to where he says this?

    What do you make of this quote from Marie-Louise von Franz? She is obviously describing duality / semi-duality.

    In marriage, as Jung points out, one tends to marry the opposite type. And then again he is, or so he thinks for the moment, freed from the disagreeable task of confronting his inferior function. That is one of the greatest blessings and sources of happiness in the early stages of marriage; suddenly the whole weight of the inferior function is gone, one lives in a blessed oneness with the other, and every problem is solved. But if one of the partners dies, or the need comes up in one of them to develop the inferior function instead of just leaving those section of life to the other, the trouble starts.

    Lectures on Jung's typology (von Franz, Hillman)
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    It's impossible to destroy the concept of duality. Duality is everywhere.
    Sometimes you don't have motivation because you lack purpose.
    Sometimes you don't have purpose, because you lack self-knowledge
    Sometimes you don't have self-knowledge because you lack love
    Sometimes you don't have love because you lack self-love
    Sometimes you don't have self-love because you lack guess what? Ask Gulenko!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reyne View Post
    "For instance, if you have to explain an introverted-intuitive husband to an extrovert wife, it is a most painstaking affair because, you see, an extrovert sensation type is furtherest away from the ‐ inner experience and the rational functions.
    He adapts and behaves according to the facts as they are, and he is always caught by those facts.
    He himself is those facts.
    But if the introvert is intuitive, to him that is hell, because as soon as he is in a definite situation, he tries to find a hole where he can get out.
    To him, every given situation is just the worst that can happen to him.

    He is pinched and feels he is caught, suffocated, chained.
    He must break those fetters, because he is the man who will discover a new field. He will plant that field, and as soon as the new plants are coming up, he’s done; he’s over and no more interested.
    Others will reap what he has sown.
    When those two marry, the extrovert-sensation and the introvert-intuitive, there is trouble, I can assure you."


    Conversations with Carl Jung
    Augusta applied Jungian typology to understand the relationships that occurred in Soviet collective housing, where multiple families (and contrasting personalities) would be bunched up and forced to live closely together. She noticed that relationships involving opposing dichotomies either went very smoothly, or devolved into misunderstandings and mutual embarrassment. She called the former 'duals' and the latter 'conflictors'. She noticed that that the p/j dichotomy acted as the switch that inverted the entire character of the relationship—e.g. ENTp dualizes with ISFp but conflicts with ISFj, as you're probably already aware.


    Augusta didn't copy Jung, as many love to emphasize. She used his input and the input of other psychologists (like Kępiński) to create something entirely new, which knowingly and statedly contradicts Jung on many points.

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    Trouble ist what both types are looking for in a relationship.

    I would also Like to See the original Version, which Word has been translated into 'trouble' from German...
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    He mistaked. Dealing with individual therapy he had the lack of experiece of watching how people of different types influence on each other. In the theoretizing there, he followed to idea that the difference in types is worse than similarity for having good relations because it's hard to understand differing people. He missed that the difference also allows supplementing and such the basis for useful exchange, - the basis for good relations.
    In the beginning different types _may_ have more troubles than similar types. But they may adopt, study to deal with each other as have the attraction of mutual supporting abbility in them, what is expressed in irrational sympathy. Due to the difference they may give more to each other - the info and help where other one is weak. The positive relations development needs to have the functions as supplementing by values - as in duality, and not opposing as in superego. Also it needs to be open to other one to accept his views, emotions and thoughts - to process that and absord to enrich your personality. It's useful to have attitudes of friendship and love to get the use from good IR, to reduce the interpersonal border between people, to join their minds in one - this helps to get the best information exchange.

    Jung was too catched by individualistic philosophy. So missed the possibility for more useful cooperation which have people with more differing psyche. He even had the negative about such influences due to difficulties to accept the idead of useful cooperation, - because of his individualistic attitude. This can be supposed as his students thought that differing by types people predispose the opponents to stay more undeveloped in weak regions. That people get a use from such support was hard to accept for him. That differing people which are in friendship relations may help to become each other better as tend to copy each other, stimulate the attention on weak regions what helps to improve them, what makes weak regions more consciousness and allows to use more of energy which was supressed to the unconsciousness, to reduce neurotic factor of such energy suppressed in the unconsciousness.
    Jung needed more experience of watching relations between people with different types. To notice IR theory elements and positive factors between duality types. Following to individualistic approach he missed and underesteemated the use of cooperation between people, what leaded him to mistake as noticed only troubles in differences.

    May sometimes experiments will proof that duality pairs are better than identities by emotional states people have there, by % of breaks. Also can be proved the existence of higher sympathy between some types, better emotional states during and after such communications.
    The objective practice will show who is correct. Not theories.

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    lol
    Idk as long as I am dishing out a lot of love and affection to my husband (LSE) he doesn’t care what I believe in and always is on my side and has my back!
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    And one more moment...
    Jung thought his type as LII, while having ILI.
    So people which he supposed as having leading function same as his suggestive one were base Fe - his conflictors and revisors! His personal experience could influence in his bad opinion too.

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    Duality is a perfect heterosexual construct. When it works appropriately 'as it's supposed to', it is the thing that continues the human race in the most socially appropriate way. (perfect heterosexuality) Duality itself is based on this perfect heterosexuality. I, myself, am a by-product of this perfect heterosexuality. But in life- as they say 'shit happens', and things often don't work the way they are supposed to, right.

    What heterosexist academia socionists forgot to mention (and what people forget until RuPaul dresses in drag at them) while discovering duality is that in order to work properly, the people also have to be "healthy" themselves and truly like themselves first. (which is where people FAIL and they fail HARD and deserve an Acme Anvil to fall upon them.)

    A lot of duality is but a Dark, defunctionary Duality where its an obviously Unhealthy Introvert attracted to an Unhealthy Narcissist Extrovert. Instead of a self confident introvert who truly loves themselves, attracted to a grounded extrovert who also truly loves themselves (rather than their own image or projection) and vice-versa.

    In other words duality only ironically works out for you as to how non-dualistic you are with the Gay Shaman Gods. Duality is needed to make the human race 'a thing' but Non-duality is the true nature of this universe.

    If you don't love yourself, how the hell are you going to love anybody else? Can I get a Gay-Men? As ideal and life creating as heterosexuality truly is, even that will fail miserably under psychological disorders. I got annoyed before when people told me to love myself because it seemed narcissistic but it really is very good advice and I realize I too wasn't doing it and I was being an Unhealthy Introvert attracted to Unhealthy Extroverts and falling in love with 'their image' and 'not them.' In the most failed fucked up relationships of my IEI str8 female friends- they obviously were NOT starting at a place of Self-Love until I bitch slapped some of them. No matter how it seems like it would fit in a picture-perfect storybook way- a person's own [lack of] self-worth will destroy the concept of duality.

    Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with being attracted to somebody stronger or more outgoing than you are or whatever- but if you don't like yourself then it's all going to go to shit anyway.

    Maybe in a fucked up way, fucked up people make us love ourselves more because we know they are fucked up too and 'can't judge us' but I still believe and know the more you truly like yourself- the more your partner will too, and probably everybody else. And it can be genuine and rich, instead of a cheap half-joke. It is not the same as narcissists, who actually hate and loathe themselves.
    Last edited by Hot Scalding Gayser; 10-06-2020 at 02:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Jung might have been right in establishing the facts, but wrong in establishing the value judgments. E.g. take the stress of a the relationship between an SLE and and IEI: if we project the one-dimensional generally accepted social constructs about what a good relationship is about, then certainly SLE-IEI duality is a dysfunctional type of relationship. But if we let go of preconceived ideas of what entails a good relationship, we can see merit in a relationship such as those between SLEs and IEIs.

    I'm very much afraid Jung hadn't detached himself enough from generally accepted constructs of his days.

    Man, when SLE love you, they REALLY, REALLY love you.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    I personally don't know enough about him to type beyond 'probably LII/IXI
    There is enough to type with assurance between ILI / LII.
    LII have texts with good structure. Jung's texts is a mess. What is seen in Psychological types, where among much of water with switching to different abstract themes sometimes is met important and clear about types. It's possibly even to remove chapters 1-9 - we'll be lost not much, while that is the majority of the book's text.
    His autobiography "Memories, dreams, reflections" to understand his type. He much lived in Ni dreaming and esoterics than in clear Ti logic. Compare the style of Jung's texts with texts for example of Gulenko (possible LII).
    Also there are videos for VI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    There is enough to type with assurance between ILI / LII.
    LII have texts with good structure. Jung's texts is a mess. What is seen in Psychological types, where among much of water with switching to different abstract themes sometimes is met important and clear about types. It's possibly even to remove chapters 1-9 - we'll be lost not much, while that is the majority of the book's text.
    His autobiography "Memories, dreams, reflections" to understand his type. He much lived in Ni dreaming and esoterics than in clear Ti logic. Compare the style of Jung's texts with texts for example of Gulenko (possible LII).
    Also there are videos for VI.
    I agree completely
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    ''if you have to explain an introverted-intuitive husband to an extrovert wife is a ***most*** painstaking affair''

    convincing can be painstaking because you have an agenda and a kind of preconceived idea of how the exchange should unfold (esp if one is neurotic). in this sense, convincing may differ from explaining.

    - why should a rational extrovert have a harder time understanding the introverted intuition than the other way around?
    - I think that Carl did a great job describing the thing. he should be more confident. maybe he tried to get a patient to understand introverted intuition and they were not open to it. he was kinda looking for people caught up in their own stuff anyway (that could be Freud though.)
    Last edited by Kalinoche buenanoche; 10-06-2020 at 08:17 PM.

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    Jung's gotta be ILI over LII because he took tons of different people and behaviors and created singular archetypes out of them (Ni).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reyne View Post
    Jung destroying the concept of duality
    He's not destroying it, as per the YouTube video titles - he's reinforcing it. Duality is both the union and the conflict of the opposites.

    Somehow you guys wishing duality to be a rose garden are missing the conflict of the opposites part.

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    You love to hate it and hate to love it. Apparently.

    Jung even described duality in someways.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type
    Life is a joke but do you have a life?

    Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reyne View Post
    But if the introvert is intuitive, to him that is hell, because as soon as he is in a definite situation, he tries to find a hole where he can get out.<br>
    To him, every given situation is just the worst that can happen to him.
    He is pinched and feels he is caught, suffocated, chained.
    He must break those fetters, because he is the man who will discover a new field. He will plant that field, and as soon as the new plants are coming up, he’s done; he’s over and no more interested.
    Others will reap what he has sown.
    The first part sounds like opposition to Se, the second part sounds like the actions of Ne.
    But extroverted Intuition is an oxymoron anyway, as is introverted sensing.
    Sensing is the intake and storage of plain physical information, Intuition is finding patterns in the stored data and doing "leaps" transcending logic.
    Sensing is minimal information metabolism, Intuition is maximum (unrestricted) information metabolism.
    Ethics is specialized Sensing, Logic is restricted Intuition
    Last edited by DivineStrength; 10-07-2020 at 07:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DivineStrength View Post
    But extroverted Intuition is an oxymoron anyway, as is introverted sensing.
    Sensing is the intake and storage of plain physical information, Intuition is finding patterns in the stored data and doing "leaps" transcending logic.
    Sensing is minimal information metabolism, Intuition is maximum (unrestricted) information metabolism.
    Ethics is specialized Sensing, Logic is restricted Intuition
    "plain physical information" is more like the raw material for the sensing function. Si processes this and focuses on the introverted component, the inner impression. If Si is developed then the result can be something very far from the "plain physical information".
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reyne View Post
    "For instance, if you have to explain an introverted-intuitive husband to an extrovert wife, it is a most painstaking affair because, you see, an extrovert sensation type is furtherest away from the ‐ inner experience and the rational functions.
    He adapts and behaves according to the facts as they are, and he is always caught by those facts.
    He himself is those facts.
    But if the introvert is intuitive, to him that is hell, because as soon as he is in a definite situation, he tries to find a hole where he can get out.
    To him, every given situation is just the worst that can happen to him.

    He is pinched and feels he is caught, suffocated, chained.
    He must break those fetters, because he is the man who will discover a new field. He will plant that field, and as soon as the new plants are coming up, he’s done; he’s over and no more interested.
    Others will reap what he has sown.
    When those two marry, the extrovert-sensation and the introvert-intuitive, there is trouble, I can assure you."


    Conversations with Carl Jung
    I think I relate to this view. I'd also be interested to know where this comes from, because I'm curious whether he saw a problem existing between opposite functions in general, or only specifically between intuition and sensing.

    If the latter, perhaps semiduality would be preferable for rational types, and maybe illusory or comparative relations for irrationals? Interesting to consider.

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    @Tallmo
    Si is mostly body sensation, right? Especially health (avoiding Illness), but also pleasure. Secondarily it can also mean decorations, artsy stuff and clothes. Physical harmony
    All pretty direct physical stuff.
    But you are right, Se is a more pure form of Sensing, whereas Si intersects with the Ethical realm, and Fe in turn with the Sensorical realm.
    If you ask "How do you feel?" you can expect both Si and Fe realm information. When you comfort someone, it can be Fe as well as Si.
    If you judge if something looks good or harmonious, you really process a minimum of information, very little is abstracted.
    In ethics, a little more is abstracted. From subtle body movements, mimic etc, the intentions and basic thought styles (emotional states) the person resides in are abstracted by guessing, and are manipulated by emitting these subtle cues yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DivineStrength View Post
    @Tallmo
    Si is mostly body sensation, right? Especially health (avoiding Illness), but also pleasure. Secondarily it can also mean decorations, artsy stuff and clothes. Physical harmony
    All pretty direct physical stuff.
    The problem here is that the socionics community uses inexact language and examples to try to refer to Si. It's not wrong per se, it's just that they are more like hinting at Si from the outside, than actually identifying it.

    You can use these hints to learn about Si, but only by also spending time with Si types (SEI, SLI). The hints should not be interpreted as definitions.

    Si is not identical to decorations, artsy stuff or clothes. Decorations etc. can evoke inner impressions, and that's why Si people like to get involved with these. Si in itself can be far removed from these outer objects.

    If Si is described only by the inner experience it really is, it gets pretty hard to understand. Jung gave it a good try, but he also got misunderstood a lot. But the "body sensations" part is easier, like the "fluctuating organic reactions" or something like that. Marie-Louise von Franz also has a nice description, saying that Si is experienced like a stone falling into deep water. Meaning something like the objective world of sensations is colored by the psyche, not experienced in its objective form.

    But you are right, Se is a more pure form of Sensing, whereas Si intersects with the Ethical realm, and Fe in turn with the Sensorical realm.
    If you ask "How do you feel?" you can expect both Si and Fe realm information. When you comfort someone, it can be Fe as well as Si.
    If you judge if something looks good or harmonious, you really process a minimum of information, very little is abstracted.
    In ethics, a little more is abstracted. From subtle body movements, mimic etc, the intentions and basic thought styles (emotional states) the person resides in are abstracted by guessing, and are manipulated by emitting these subtle cues yourself.
    I'm not really sure what approach you have here. The functions are very specific information processing units in the psyche. They are difficult to learn to observe, and one has to spend a lot of time with very different people in different situations to learn them. Reading about the functions is definitely not enough. Many things we do, like comforting someone etc. can mean many things and can be related to different functions depending on the person and the situation.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    @Tallmo, would you say that much of the difficulty understanding Si has to do with Si being difficult to describe by nature? Of course you can say that "Si is perception of internal impressions" or something to that effect, but that's difficult to explain to someone -- what are these inner impressions like? How is it distinct from feeling? How is it distinct from even Se (since perceptive functions aren't purely perceptive, after all)? Jung struggled to explain these well (I didn't find what he wrote about them to be very helpful, at least), and I've never seen anyone explain them any better. And because Si isn't in my ego block I don't have a great subjective understanding of it myself, so I also struggle. But even Si bases don't seem particularly able to describe Si, either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raTG13 View Post
    Man, when SLE love you, they REALLY, REALLY love you.


    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    And they work.

    Hence LII
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stance View Post
    How does duality work or differ in the nonhetero communities? I was just curious because you made the distinction.
    they get attracted to their identical.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    @Tallmo, would you say that much of the difficulty understanding Si has to do with Si being difficult to describe by nature?
    difficult by nature, and also because it's hidden. But I guess that's true for all introverted functions also. I don't claim to understand Ni very well, although I can identify it in people.

    Of course you can say that "Si is perception of internal impressions" or something to that effect, but that's difficult to explain to someone -- what are these inner impressions like?
    Jung does a good job of describing it. But when describing inner phenomena one has to use some metaphors maybe, like he does.

    How is it distinct from feeling?
    I don't understand the connection to feeling, since feeling is rational, about attitude. Si can perceive nervous reactions, but that's not feeling as a function.

    How is it distinct from even Se (since perceptive functions aren't purely perceptive, after all)?
    That's pretty easy to observe though. Se goes by the outer impact / connection to physical reality. Si goes by the inner impression to outer reality. Making it sometimes totally irrelevant to the outer situation. Like observing everything through a screen. One can sometimes feel this strongly when walking into a bar full of people. Si is distant from all this, taking it in as an impression, but Se is out there talking to the ladies.

    And because Si isn't in my ego block I don't have a great subjective understanding of it myself, so I also struggle.
    I think LIIs can have a pretty good connection to Si. If they just become aware of it.

    But even Si bases don't seem particularly able to describe Si, either.
    They have nothing to compare it with. It's hard to even be aware of something you are swimming around in.

    EDIT: sorry, off-topic
    Last edited by Tallmo; 10-08-2020 at 09:35 AM.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    difficult by nature, and also because it's hidden. But I guess that's true for all introverted functions also. I don't claim to understand Ni very well, although I can identify it in people.



    Jung does a good job of describing it. But when describing inner phenomena one has to use some metaphors maybe, like he does.



    I don't understand the connection to feeling, since feeling is rational, about attitude. Si can perceive nervous reactions, but that's not feeling as a function.



    That's pretty easy to observe though. Se goes by the outer impact / connection to physical reality. Si goes by the inner impression to outer reality. Making it sometimes totally irrelevant to the outer situation. Like observing everything through a screen. One can sometimes feel this strongly when walking into a bar full of people. Si is distant from all this, taking it in as an impression, but Se is out there talking to the ladies.



    I think LIIs can have a pretty good connection to Si. If they just become aware of it.



    They have nothing to compare it with. It's hard to even be aware of something you are swimming around in.

    EDIT: sorry, off-topic
    Se: when you touch something soft you feel the sensation of the soft thing.

    Si: when you touch something soft, you feel the sensation of your finger touching the soft thing and the soft thing kinda feels like this other silk thing you touched once before.

    Is how I understand it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Personal baggage including lack of maturity, biological imperatives/differences, and mental health issues (in that order) prevent or kill relationships; Jung is a very minor player because all types can easily coexist under ideal circumstances. When one closely oversees a lot of people, this becomes self-evident.
    Strongly agreed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    Se: when you touch something soft you feel the sensation of the soft thing.

    Si: when you touch something soft, you feel the sensation of your finger touching the soft thing and the soft thing kinda feels like this other silk thing you touched once before.

    Is how I understand it.
    I don't really separate the two tbh. I feel like it's both an in-the-moment distinct & discrete sensation (your Se def), and I both recognise it as fitting some familiar template (your Si def). Because the latter orients the distinct sensation, but for that I don't have to focus too much on how it feels like the other thing I touched before. I just kinda "know" it and that's that

    I saw an SLE's post somewhere on here on how she also focuses on sensory associations that were exactly like what you've called Si here.

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    Maybe he confused duality and semi duality lol

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    Forever Jung
    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Just rename this place Beta Central lmao
    Quote Originally Posted by MidnightWilderness View Post
    The only problem socionics has given me is a propensity to analyze every relationship from the lens of socionics and I also see that it is worse in my boyfriend. Nothing makes any sense that way and it does not really solve any problems.





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    I'll destroy u all with @Northstar's monster cock

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    I don't really separate the two tbh. I feel like it's both an in-the-moment distinct & discrete sensation (your Se def), and I both recognise it as fitting some familiar template (your Si def). Because the latter orients the distinct sensation, but for that I don't have to focus too much on how it feels like the other thing I touched before. I just kinda "know" it and that's that

    I saw an SLE's post somewhere on here on how she also focuses on sensory associations that were exactly like what you've called Si here.
    Are your familiar templates specific or general?

    If you touch a soft object do you think it feels like silk or like your grandma's silk drapes you touched when you visited last summer?

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    Seed my wickedness The Reality Denialist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman
    "Si is perception of internal impressions" or something to that effect, but that's difficult to explain to someone -- what are these inner impressions like? How is it distinct from feeling?
    This probably crosses over with symptoms of alexithymia. This is probably why I can't understand the experience of it as the feeling as in sensation is quite separated from myself including the feel of as in feeling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    Are your familiar templates specific or general?

    If you touch a soft object do you think it feels like silk or like your grandma's silk drapes you touched when you visited last summer?
    It could be either really. It depends on the thing

    I usually perceive the former but if it's really similar to grandma's silk drapes then I might realise that too.

    (I don't know why Si == grandmas BTW LOL)


    Edit: the SLE's description was of a specific one. I.e. like grandma's silk drapes, tho it wasn't about grandmas in the post

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    Quote Originally Posted by Homicidal Maniac 007 View Post
    This probably crosses over with symptoms of alexithymia. This is probably why I can't understand the experience of it as the feeling as in sensation is quite separated from myself including the feel of as in feeling.
    Actually I have alexithymia but I have no problem with sensations. I would agree that the sensation is separated from myself, but that's supposed to be Se in socionics. ... Also alexithymia in the literature has been associated with Jung's Extraverted Sensing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Homicidal Maniac 007 View Post
    This probably crosses over with symptoms of alexithymia. This is probably why I can't understand the experience of it as the feeling as in sensation is quite separated from myself including the feel of as in feeling.
    We use the word "feel" as a verb for physical sensation. No one ever says "When I touch silk it senses soft." or " Let me sense your hands? They sense cold." instead we say "feel", but we aren't talking about an emotion, so the word "feel" and "feeling" in the realm of sensations can just be replaced with the word sense. We usually use sense as a verb for intuition "I sense something coming." but we aren't talking about sensation.

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