What is your experience with LSI females?

[EUDAEMONIUM]

From my experience LSI women are different from LSI men. They don't come off as the stereotypical LSI soldier/inspector like a man might. I think they downplay their Se a bit for society and offer up their Ti more often than Se. I think society will pressure them to develop their Fe and Fi more than a male LSI would. This can make typing an LSI female difficult. I think more often than not they will appear as if they are a ESI and often get typed this way superficially.

What is your experience with LSI females, and how have they behaved?

[Great]

Hotties. They don't seem to trust me though.

They like Fe. That's a good way to tell them apart from ESI.

I once made the mistake of being rude with one in a work situation. She took it coolly. Later though, she tried to tackle me as a problem (she presented it to the rest of the group). I really don't blame her.

[Adam Strange]

I could write a book, but yes, the Females I've met really are less rigid than the LSI males that I know (and I know a bunch of both). I have no trouble telling them from ESI's. At least, I don't think I do.

[EUDAEMONIUM]

I want to clarify that I don't think that it is actually hard to tell the difference between an LSI and an ESI female. But I think people could make the mistake of thinking an LSI is an ESI if they are female because they will be more likely to have a softer touch than a male LSI.

[myresearch]

From my experience LSI women are different from LSI men. They don't come off as the stereotypical LSI soldier/inspector like a man might.

Are you sure?




LSI females like LSI males are precise in their speech and logic(4DTi-Si,3D-Se). I have met with LSI-Ti males but never met a single Ti subtype female. Like LSI-Se males, LSI-Se females are more talkative compared to LSI-Ti males. Hence, I am not sure, if LSI females more prone to be Se subtype because of their gender or they seem to be Se-subtype because society demands females to be more F. LSI females like LSI-Se males are better at small talk however, they are still not good enough compared to F types. I don't think LSI females downplay their Se. They are diligent and practical, they generally do what is necessary to accomplish their goals. They are generally active, do different kinds of sports. They are good at getting what they want or make people do something by pushing things or making short term plans or sometimes with manipulation (Se-creative Ni-HA).


LSI females are able to show their interest in others, they wont ask for a date but they can start a conversation or directing their focus to someone in order to show their interest in a group setting. My friendships with LSI females started with their chase. However, if they like someone and try to increase momentum but nothing changes, they might stop or think that is unworthy. They generally try to form groups, get people together like males of this type.

LSI-Se female may say that person is good or bad, but when you see how they evaluate things you can see they are using their Ti-base/Fi-role. I don't think LSIs are similar to ESIs, never made that mistake in real life.

[Adam Strange]

What is your experience with LSI females, and how have they behaved?

My latest experience with an LSI female:

My IEI hairdresser had a heart attack and he either can't or doesn't want to work anymore, so I asked him for a recommendation, and he gave me the name of his #1 employee when he still had a hair salon.

I went to her new place masked and met her, also masked. Her place was hard to find but very tasteful.
"That's a really nice jacket you have," she said.
"Thanks. I was in the store and put it on and I thought it fit."
It's something that an ESE would wear. I know, because I know an ESE with a similar looking one.

She was super talkative but I could tell she was an introvert, but I couldn't tell which one just from her eyes.
She was chatting away like crazy and I told her that I bet that she doesn't do that at home. She looked at me and said, "Oh, my, no, when I get home I just sit down with a good book. People here (her salon customers) can't believe I'm an introvert, but I am. I don't have any friends, either. I avoid people outside work. Except I have one gay male friend, who is a dear. Because he's safe, you know. I've never been married."
(She was mid-forties.)
"That sounds like my ex-wife. She was friendly enough, but she avoided people outside work. What about your family?"
"My family is really fucked up. I'm adopted, and my adopting parents fought all the time. They had three kids and adopted four more, and I wish I'd never been adopted by them."
"Really? That's surprising. Why?"
"They took me in when I was nine, and my "brother" raped me every day until I was 15 and I was able to leave home. So yes, I avoid people."
"That's a shame. I can see why you keep people at a distance."
"Yes. Ha ha. But I'm excellent at cutting hair. My friend says that I cut every. single. hair. I don't miss a single one." She smiled.
"I don't know why I'm telling you all this. I normally don't talk this much with my customers."
"It's because I'm a nice guy."
"Ha! You are. I can tell. I have a sixth sense about that."

And she finished my haircut and I stood up and backed away to six feet. "Do you mind if I take a look at your face?"

"No, not at all" and she whipped off her mask, and she was LSI.

"Got it. Thanks. What do I owe you? I'll be coming back regularly, so consider that." And I smiled.

[EUDAEMONIUM]

Are you sure?




LSI females like LSI males are precise in their speech and logic(4DTi-Si,3D-Se). I have met with LSI-Ti males but never met a single Ti subtype female. Like LSI-Se males, LSI-Se females are more talkative compared to LSI-Ti males. Hence, I am not sure, if LSI females more prone to be Se subtype because of their gender or they seem to be Se-subtype because society demands females to be more F. LSI females like LSI-Se males are better at small talk however, they are still not good enough compared to F types. I don't think LSI females downplay their Se. They are diligent and practical, they generally do what is necessary to accomplish their goals. They are generally active, do different kinds of sports. They are good at getting what they want or make people do something by pushing things or making short term plans or sometimes with manipulation (Se-creative Ni-HA).


LSI females are able to show their interest in others, they wont ask for a date but they can start a conversation or directing their focus to someone in order to show their interest in a group setting. My friendships with LSI females started with their chase. However, if they like someone and try to increase momentum but nothing changes, they might stop or think that is unworthy. They generally try to form groups, get people together like males of this type.

LSI-Se female may say that person is good or bad, but when you see how they evaluate things you can see they are using their Ti-base/Fi-role. I don't think LSIs are similar to ESIs, never made that mistake in real life.

I'm sorry to disagree with Ciara but yes I am sure.

I do not agree that women are more prone to having the Se subtype that seems to be a conclusion that you have come to based on your experience. I also do not think that subtype will affect the social skills or proclivities of an LSI regardless of gender.

Women and Men will use Se differently. Se descriptions lean toward male behaviors and lead people astray.

Also Fi is not just statements of "that person is good or bad" even though those could be Fi related statements. And LSI and ESI will make personal judgments whether or not they are ethical in nature.

I did expect the LSI/ESI to be the most controversial statement in the thread and I regret that it has completely derailed it. I just threw out a type that someone would foolishly think instead of the actual type as I did say originally if you go back and look.

[myresearch]

I do not agree that women are more prone to having the Se subtype that seems to be a conclusion that you have come to based on your experience. I also do not think that subtype will affect the social skills or proclivities of an LSI regardless of gender.

Subtype affects the strength of IEs. If you think LSI females have stronger Fi-Fe and if you think this improves their social skills, one can say that may be result of a subtype.

[EUDAEMONIUM]

Subtype affects the strength of IEs. If you think LSI females have stronger Fi-Fe and if you think this improves their social skills, one can say that may be result of a subtype.

I didn't mean that the strength of ethical IMs were higher in females, I don't think that subtype will affect the strength of the information elements either. If subtype affected information metabolism then the subtypes would have to be considered separate types and there would be 32 types not 16.

I think that subtypes and gender can affect what is seen in behavior, but not changing the information metabolism of the type. For example an ILI could try very hard to be better at expressing themselves and could appear to be more expressive than a typical ILI but this would not change the dimensionality of their Fe.

[myresearch]

I didn't mean that the strength of ethical IMs were higher in females, I don't think that subtype will affect the strength of the information elements either. If subtype affected information metabolism then the subtypes would have to be considered separate types and there would be 32 types not 16.

I think that subtypes and gender can affect what is seen in behavior, but not changing the information metabolism of the type. For example an ILI could try very hard to be better at expressing themselves and could appear to be more expressive than a typical ILI but this would not change the dimensionality of their Fe.

Yes, subtype doesnt change dimmensions of IEs. How are you able to distunguish development levels of Fe-Fi of LSI females from development levels of Fe-Fi of LSI-Se males? In other words, how LSI-Se subtype who is trying to be better Fe-Fi is different than LSI femal who is trying to better at Fi-Fe because of societal rules?

[EUDAEMONIUM]

Yes, subtype doesnt change dimmensions of IEs. How are you able to distunguish development levels of Fe-Fi of LSI females from development levels of Fe-Fi of LSI-Se males? In other words, how LSI-Se subtype who is trying to be better Fe-Fi is different than LSI femal who is trying to better at Fi-Fe because of societal rules?

I do not think that it is developed more or less depending on gender. What I'm pointing out is that it is more visible if females rather than males. I dont think that competency in what could be considered an information element like Fe or Fi will affect dimensionality the types of built on the concept of dimensions. What is development beyond that? That they can smile and act the part of a female does not affect the level or comfort with the information element. There is no distinction beyond what you can see in behavior, which can be changed but doesn't change the persons information metabolism. If it did change would change the type of the person.

The subtypes attempt to explain why types act or look different from a typical type. The idea of development is not something that is built in to Socionics.

[Computer Loser]

I do not think that it is developed more or less depending on gender. What I'm pointing out is that it is more visible if females rather than males. I dont think that competency in what could be considered an information element like Fe or Fi will affect dimensionality the types of built on the concept of dimensions. What is development beyond that? .

I think females develop social awareness earlier on in life compared to those of males

Women are better in social interactions because they train more at it, from the second they get tits, and even before that, they’re forced to learn to read people’s intentions, motives, behaviors, etc. Men, especially these days with the Internet for communication and gaming/youtube/etc to replace face to face social interaction, tend not to develop much of this. It’s not that they’re incapable, they just aren’t in social situations as much.

A really hot girl gets hit on in subtle ways by practically every guy in her vicinity, even just going to the grocery store, whether it’s a blatant “hey baby” or as subtle as a cashier being extra friendly or men losing track of their conversation as she walks by or a dude walking down an aisle at the grocery store just to look at her and hope she strikes up a convo with him.

But it’s learned over time. Girls generally have a head start but if dudes go out and expose themselves to tons of social interactions, males can develop the same sense they have.

[SGF]

This is what the big G. wrote to me: Judging by his facial expressions, his smile is more like a role smile, i.e. consciously represented. Perhaps, he is learning some communication techniques on purpose. Emotions rarely capture him to such an extent that he loses self-control.

I'm friendly and likable, its reasonable to assume female LSIs would have even more learned Fe.. so they might be even more expressive?

[Hope]

I've met 2 of them. One in ms the other at university. The one from MS was likely Ti subtype and the other one is Se. They both pay much more attention to their social circles and classmates than I do.The first one was very competitive about notes (which I didnt give af) along with my LII friend (who supposedly didnt care about notes for social purposes but just wanted to keep an standard for herself). They were just nerds in other words. This ms LSI nerd was always smiling and learnt disney songs to be accepted by other nerds. It was cringey. Her mom forced her to hang out with nerds and be one of them. She was easily influenced and was always trying to immitate ppl around her (especially those who she felt like competing with). She even called my LII friend to ask what she would wear that day and else.

The girl at uni was not a nerd but she was instead one of those ppl with very unoriginal life and tastes. She enjoys Fe environments (like clubs and family and friends gatherings) hang out with Fe girls and pay a lot of attention to social circles, the lastname of ppl, groups of friends etc She's always posting pics of her family and relatives. She was not a good student (just like me). On the graduation party however she wore a red dress and was like in the middle of the group pictures extending her hand up with a glass of champagne and else.
They are not very different from the male LSIs I've met. Just that as with most T types, ppl expect women to be more smiley, expressive, talkative and pleasing while men can be as they are. The Se subtype was kinda masculine but since she was kinda social wasnt find weird at all.

[Lolita]

With mirror relations, it works really well if both have the same goals. Male or female LSIs, they’re very strict and exacting with everyone. I don’t think the females are much different from the males when it comes to cognition. What they may not like is my flexible usage of Ti because I use Ti to get myself out of trouble that Se brought on in the first place. So to LSI, they think I’m wasteful and crazy but they also like my “pushy” and “confrontational” nature. They don’t mind that I’m a thrill seeker, because they also seek thrills or at least they’re easily talked into doing risky things, they just don’t want to admit it. I respect that they enforce rules on others, since Ti is their domain, but I am better at the Se stuff, which they let me reign supreme.


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[SGF]

Beta LSI - Anastasia (I bet its totally not what you guys imagined)

[grumpyvic81]

I could write a book, but yes, the Females I've met really are less rigid than the LSI males that I know (and I know a bunch of both). I have no trouble telling them from ESI's. At least, I don't think I do.

Less rigid even than the LSI-Se males?

For the last part: bc they are colder and more detached on their own than ESIs yeah?

[grumpyvic81]

I want to clarify that I don't think that it is actually hard to tell the difference between an LSI and an ESI female. But I think people could make the mistake of thinking an LSI is an ESI if they are female because they will be more likely to have a softer touch than a male LSI.

tbh the softer touch for an LSI female will just be some social mask. At home, the iron rod comes out supposedly : P

LSI females like LSI males are precise in their speech and logic(4DTi-Si,3D-Se). I have met with LSI-Ti males but never met a single Ti subtype female

I have seen LSI-Ti females just fine. When they aren't trying to socialise too much then they are really obviously inflexible and unemotional & cold (for a woman). Or they can be seemingly worrywarts, the Se subs don't seem to be worrywarts

[Lolita]

This is one of my female LSI friends. Don’t let the looks fool you. She throws the hammer at everyone and puts people in their place. Her EIE roommate (my friend that I met her through) was deathly afraid of her cuz she used to yell at the EIE for being disorderly LOL I didn’t help because I agreed with the LSI and even told the EIE to apologize to the LSI for being messy. Ironically, with LSIs, they let me get away with things they’d never let anyone else get away with, probably because I don’t break explicit rules.



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[Sol]

From my experience LSI women are different from LSI men.

A difference of a behavior between people of different sexes is from cultural norms and sexes' biology, but not from types. If your experience regularly controverts to basic types theory beyond the said factors - most possibly it's mistyping, what is not rarely.

[Rebelondeck]

LSI women are as regimented in thought as are men. Social expectations and or motherhood mutes the public erections but behind the scenes, where LSIs work their magic best, there's no cognitive difference.

a.k.a. I/O

[The Reality Denialist]

the first one was very competitive about notes (

Cracks me up. My notes were and still are undecipherable. I just consider that it is good to practice writing notes times. Not for the reason I'll never find those but it is funny how some random twists in your body can bring out memories.

(But yeah, good way to learn math but if need you need to clarify it just write it in code language like LaTeX on a computer. I'm weird. A trick I learned from ILI.)

[Disturbed]

LSI-Se really aren't all that rigid, although they can be single-minded. I really like them, i usually have, if i thought magic existed, i'd think they possessed magical powers.

As for my experience with them, they're pretty smart and alternate between being critical/harsh (like I am sometimes, so I understand) and friendly/super-gentle just like the LSI men do; they're beautiful. As for just two of many... My current dental hygienist is one, an LSI-Se nurse in my old neighborhood was one, she's helped me out with psychological problems I've been having, she's super-responsive although she lost her temper (i didn't mind, i thought it looked kind of funny) when I was young (I seem to remember a friend of one of her son's said I could have a vid game he had loaned to the LSI-Se nurse's son and so I came to her house to try to retrieve it and she exploded, she was quite resolute). They're kind of impulsive, verbose like me (much more wordy than SLE-Ti), and they generally like everything in their desired order. They're convinced that they're right. They tend to slam things. They're devout christians. They have a high tendency toward having beautiful/sexy apple-shaped figures and sexy flat asses with anus beautifully positioned directly in between legs, pants sexily outlined their cracks.

I've communicated and spent more time with LSI-Se women than with ESI-Se women, in fact I've never communicated in person with a female I knew to be ESI-Se (EDIT: Except for one in my kindergarten class but just briefly)

Many of them seem sympathetic, many seem oriented to people from time to time; although there really isn't much difference between how much Se an LSI female presents vs how much a male LSI presents.

[Lolita]

LSI-Se (C,H) are more relaxed compared to LSI-Ti (D,N) but LSI is still LSI. They’re rigid with their thinking and basically no one is successful at convincing them of anything that they don’t already agree with. Maybe their duals, but that’s very specific because not every dual is gonna fit the bill.

My dad is LSI-N (LSI-Ti) and he’s not someone to fuck with. He’s hardcore rigid and he likes lightly joking around (Fe seeking) but he’s argued with many of his bosses for being wrong and sloppy. He’s super critical about... everything and if something doesn’t fit exactly like how he’s rationalized it out to be, he’s basically gonna kick your ass because then he believes you’re trying to trick him. He’s super suspicious and don’t trust anyone, not even me. He loves me but I know he don’t trust me. He trusts my mom with money matters, but he has “raging hatred” towards her which is basically the LSI way of deeply loving someone by saying they cannot get rid of the person no matter how hard they try. He cannot be convinced of anything although he can acquiesce to me due to his emotions that I’m his child. It’s beyond love and duty, it’s something deeper that I can’t really describe. But basically, LSI is hardass exterior but deep down they’re like bubbling with explosive emotions.

[Yesein]

LSI females are extraordinary. And are more like dudes actually. I have so much praise for them. They are sometimes awkward in social situations, but when they're relaxed they're sufficiently funny and goofy. They love goofing around more than getting shit done.
Their Ti makes them human bullshit detectors and their Se gives them a bold push-through quality.
Their speech pattern has a polished quality to it and nothing is said in excess. Their voice is monotonous.
They will defend people and the weak vehemently. For example, me and an LSI were in a shifty neighborhood and a woman was hitting her dog. The LSI confronted the woman aggressively and the lady told her to mind her business, and the LSI made another comment before reluctantly heading back towards the station. (Me and another IEI were bristling besides her, afraid of the woman). The whole trip home she was fuming.

Don't cry in front of them. It will make them uncomfortable and sometimes even angry. But if you do, and you're struggling, they'll shake you up from your hysteria with forceful encouragement, "Come on! Get up! Stop crying! Do something, come with me. Here's some tissues." With them you feel like getting out of a hopeless situation is possible.
They're also very generous with their Se offerings. If you're too shy to initiate contact with an authority, or make a decisive action, they'll do it for you without complaint. For example I lost my phone on public transport and began to freak out. I could not relax. She calmly calls my number, arranges a meetup spot with the person who has it, and the problem was immediately solved. I just looked at her like she was some sort of wizard.

I agree that LSI women will appear ESI like, and even type themselves as ethical types (as they have no clue how they actually are, and it comes as a surprise to them that they are so externally cold and intimidating), but they're more politically incorrect than an ESI. They might hide this tendency in themselves over time, as they don't want to disrupt the social cohesion or give people reason to hate them, but they will have gone through a phase before where they believed in very radical trains of thought that no Fi lead would touch, even out of curiosity, because it is too ethically compromising.
Another thing that differentiates them from ESI's is their lack of total close relationships and friendships with others. They are lone wolves. They also don't seem to choose their own friends, they just make do with the company of whoever approaches them. They can be pretty rude and oriented just around their own needs. For example grabbing a drink for themselves only, not offering guests anything. If questioned on this they will suddenly grow embarrassed and defensive, and immediately ask the guest in a condescending tone whether they even wanted a drink, and if the guest says No, they'll say, "See? Told you, they didn't want any." And that is sufficient reasoning for them. (Keep in mind this is the anecdote of a 18-year old LSI, and they tend to develop impeccable, yet stiff manners later on).

Another thing that differentiates them from ESI I guess would be cheating and not following rules. They don't see the problem in cheating if they can get away with it, and if they see that it will benefit someone else aswell they grow annoyed that person won't also take the chance to cheat. I'm not sure if this counts as rules necessarily, but they can also disregard the relation status of a person and see no problem in flirting or admitting their love for someone who is in a relationship or even kissing them. They love a sense of thrill in relationships.

[EUDAEMONIUM]

Oh boy, I guess it's my turn to be a victim of the necrothread. This one went off the rails and it kind of pissed me off rereading it.

I think the biggest mistake was to say that female LSI looks like ESIs. First of all, this isn't a controversial statement because business relation types will look similar, so this isn't even against the theory.

I really regret saying I never disagreed with rebelondeck, I guess I just have a short memory. I also got into an argument with myresearch , that did make me cringe.

I don't take back anything I said though. I don't care how much some insist males and females of the same type act the same, it's bullshit.

Women are given different behavioral expectations and I still stand by a lot of female LSIs are mistyped ESIs because female LSIs are expected to behave traditionally feminine.

They will act like an Ij, display Ne PoLR, but they will seem softer and more ethical than a typical chad male LSI personality.

I act similarly to female EIEs but you won't see that on the street, I look and act like a normal masculine guy. People think I'm SLE at first.

Once you get to know them you don't see the Fi though and I hear Ti immediately.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

/hugs @Eudaimonia

I'm impressed and surprised at myself that I never replied to this thread. Well time to change that and be embarrassed later on and tell my opinion and over share on the internet like I always do... ((god for a supposedly shy person I do fucking talk so much on here. I am always in Carrie TKing people at the Prom mode and I love it.))

the main female LSI I knew was a therapist and at first she was stern and tough and kind of a bitch to me and she didn't like me very well but as time went on she grew to really respect and like me. I made her cry and she made me a bit tougher. She was a good listener and I respected her advice and contructive critcisms of me. As I felt they made sense and they didn't coddle me but they weren't just abusive gaslighting pieces of shit that LSE/IEE therapists did. I would say echoing back to that 'tough love' thread- I felt hers was genuine tough love. As there was love (or at least respect and non-sociopathy) as well as toughness- not just one or the other.

There was probably also an unspoken fondness for each other. but I mean the dynamic was screwed because she still had this authority over me in ways ((plus she was like 8-10 years older)) but she was a lot better than the IEE therapists I had. Deep down we both had a love for Beta Darkness stuff. She would get annoyed if I didn't need her help, or if I turned the tables around to her and therapied her cuz I knew she was romantically attracted to 'asshole males' like a lot of str8 females and this insight I had of her probably made her feel vulnerable. but I think when this happened is also when we started to become more equals and she gained a lot of respect for me. She saw how powerful and capable I was beyond my victim-y personality. She also grew up a bit and stopped seeing emotions in males as weaknesses- which is a commom problem for young females. I mean this was a long time ago- she was about ten years younger then I am now. and I mean she was ten years older than me at the time so you do the math.

but yeah that will always be the main LSI female that I know lol. until a 'better' one comes along maybe but so far... not really.

[EUDAEMONIUM]

@BandD there was a lot in your post I related to.

the main female LSI I knew was a therapist and at first she was stern and tough and kind of a bitch to me

This is literally what attracts me to LSIs, idk why.

I had an IEE therapist that would constantly try to tell me how to feel and throw random and strange disorders and diagnoses at me to see if they would stick. I think if I had an LSI therapist like what you described I would probably fallen in love with them lol. I really fall for this type of person, especially if they were older like that. Do with that what you will lol.

She was a good listener and I respected her advice and contructive critcisms of me.

I get this from Ti doms in general. And yeah about the tough love thing, I get that from my SO all the time. I always appreciate Fe, but I don't need my emotions managed, I need someone to ground me. Slap me back to reality.

she was romantically attracted to 'asshole males' like a lot of str8 females and this insight I had of her probably made her feel vulnerable. but I think when this happened is also when we started to become more equals and she gained a lot of respect for me. She saw how powerful and capable I was beyond my victim-y personality. She also grew up a bit and stopped seeing emotions in males as weaknesses- which is a commom problem for young females. I mean this was a long time ago- she was about ten years younger then I am now. and I mean she was ten years older than me at the time so you do the math.

This was the last part I wanted to talk about. I was thinking about making a whole thread about this, but there is something odd about Victim men and Aggressor women in heterosexual relationships, they defy traditional gender roles and norms imo. My SO hates weakness, would have left me if I cried in front of her, and does see emotions as weak. Now that we've been together I've shown more vulnerability and she has as well. But that was a long process. This slow acceptance of victim behavior in men that you mention sounds similar to my experience with aggressor women but in a romantic setting. I feel like beta ST women have to get comfortable with a man acting in a more feminine way (which I think victim behavior is in the end). I think they find it uncomfortable because it makes it more apparent how "masculine" they are as aggressors and society has taught them to be ashamed of this aspect of their personalty.


Its late for me and I've spent too much time trying to type this out right, so I hope this all makes sense.

[Bethanyclaire]

@BandD I like reading your posts, even the old ones haha. Btw I realised the main therapist I had for a while was IEE. Not the best experience. At the end of the sessions she suggested I get her a card so I did and then on the last day she told me that she had felt uncomfortable working with me LOL. She was quite caring at times (better than other therapists) but there were some major problems too. She never once told me I had been diagnosed with specific mental health conditions. She told me these conditions could not be explained (at least make an attempt, it's your job!). She didn't tell me it was nothing to be ashamed of. She didn't seemed surprised or sorry that I had been able to endure such extreme mental difficulties..it's important to show that I think, even better mean it. (What I mean is they need to show empathy, like what you were saying about them showing respect/love). She seemed annoyed when I struggled to concentrate in the sessions. I'd often had 4 hours sleep and instead of telling me to go to the DOCTOR she tried to fix the sleeping issue herself. She seemed annoyed that I wouldn't 'open up'. Fair enough, that's the point of therapy but she didn't ask me why I was holding back. I guess I wasn't ready to talk but a better therapist would ask why and try to meet you half way? I left the sessions feeling like I knew more about psychology but my OCD came back after a few weeks.

edit: ok in her defense- she did tell me that if the problem came back I must not put off seeking more support. Also, recently I told my ESE friend who is training to be a therapist about my experience and she said that part of the problem is that therapists are under such pressure to carry out specific CBT methods and I guess do everything 'by the book'. The IEE therapist was experienced enough that she did try out some of her own ideas with me but I guess the bigger issue is the CBT approach..

[Number 9 large]

From my experience LSI women are different from LSI men. They don't come off as the stereotypical LSI soldier/inspector like a man might. I think they downplay their Se a bit for society and offer up their Ti more often than Se. I think society will pressure them to develop their Fe and Fi more than a male LSI would. This can make typing an LSI female difficult. I think more often than not they will appear as if they are a ESI and often get typed this way superficially.

What is your experience with LSI females, and how have they behaved?

ive known 2 LSI females who were both redhead and into me. SLE and LSI can be a funny dynamic, at least on the sexual attractiveness level i suppose. how they behaved, well mostly very withdrawn and kinda shy, but also not scared to poke you (verbally) every once in a while, in a teasing way. they also tended to use irony and a bit of sarcasm a lot. and often point out things that seems stupid to them (ti se)

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

@Bethany

I think it's because Delta therapists will too often be like "I have had stage fright in life. Now please tell me about the time you were molested or something really super embarraassing and personal about yourself. It's okay- we all have issues. See, I have had stage fright so I know what problems are like too!"

This LSI therapist didn't talk about her own life much either beause that would be inappropriate and the therapist still needs to be more closed off about their own life for it to work right but she didn't play that game with me and try to get me to open up, I just did it naturally. And she didn't really 'Hannibal me' until I asked for it first. She also really respected boundaries and understood if there was some days where I didn't really want to talk. She just let it go and accepted that which was refreshing and compatible with me. It seems like too many Delta therapists have had this bad habit of you wanting to talk about something embarrassing or really revealing about yourself so they get to feel self-righteous or morally superior or kind of smugly make fun of you for it while pretending that's not what they are doing. I don't think all Deltas are like this but a lot of them do do that and it is sick and fucked up.

Bitch , if you were already in Heaven you wouldn't be sitting there directly across from my sinful Beta ass now would you? But yeah to be fair - IEEs are good with empathy I think. Probably much better than me. Their heart is in the right place but the communication styles are often clash-y. What I said above was more of how an Unhealthy LSE treated me...

and thank you for saying you like my old posts it made me feel better. We are biased and like each other cuz we're Identicals. <3 I don't like deleting my posts like some people did out of embarrassment. I've embraced the awkward, it's human.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I get this from Ti doms in general. And yeah about the tough love thing, I get that from my SO all the time. I always appreciate Fe, but I don't need my emotions managed, I need someone to ground me. Slap me back to reality.

yeah I think LSIs could teach a seminar of how to do the tough love thing correctly. And on a base emotional level- they are my activity partners, so I feel refreshed and energized when I'm around them. They help me just do things and get things done. I mean yeah I am IEI and I can stereotypically be too day dreamy at times. it was a natural thing. If you angrily scream at me to 'stop daydreaming!' like my 3rd grade teacher did I won't do it. No I will just do it more often to piss you off probably. Destroy and gaslight you from on high with my 4D Ni lol. It's weird how my fantasies have became 'other people's reality' sometimes due to my 4D Ni... Am I really the person that doesn't understand the difference between fantasy and reality here. =D

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I feel like beta ST women have to get comfortable with a man acting in a more feminine way (which I think victim behavior is in the end). I think they find it uncomfortable because it makes it more apparent how "masculine" they are as aggressors and society has taught them to be ashamed of this aspect of their personalty.

yeah @Eudaimonia I think some never really get used to it or makes them comfortable. It is hard to go against the majority of society. In reality it's difficult. Everybody prides themselves for their anti-Karen ness but its like the Karen always wins in the end. ((that's why Candace Cameron Bure is always smiling in that sociopathic Karen-like way- that bitch.))

I still have internalized homophobia because of this- sometimes I still feel like I'm eternally dirty or disgusting just because I'm gay even though in reality I'm super picky about my sexual partners and I am one of the cleanest person I know with good hygiene etc. Sadly too many gay men behave in ways that the religious right/mainstream society thinks of them and just have nasty gross sex with people they aren't compatible with while they take their daily AIDS cocktail and die spiritually inside. 'I'm going to avoid the cliche- I'm going to die another day' - I guess my dual SLE Madonna motivates me to be better with that song.

like courtney love and kurt cobain- I don't think Courtney Love really ever accepted Kurt's victim-y ness or even her own aggression completely. In reality it's hard to do- even though yeah "I"m different and special and fuck you if you don't like it" is part of Beta's bravado. people complain about SJWness and I agree it's annoying and dumb. but part of why that happens is there is still a strong urge for everybody to just be a carbon copy of Robot Candace Cameron smiling heterosexually with their husband and 2.5 kids. and being a sub female and masc top dom male etc.

[rizz]

My vocal coach was a famous LSI-Se singer. She played like it's all just a game, yet she looked like a robot. But she had big boobs so I liked her ^.^

[EUDAEMONIUM]

My vocal coach was a famous LSI-Se singer. She played like it's all just a game, yet she looked like a robot. But she had big boobs so I liked her ^.^

From the sounds of it, I like her too.

[rizz]

It was intense though. Different from the big titted ENFj

[WVBRY]

I had an LSI female friend during college. Her energy is contained and she looks serene, upon first impression you wouldn't really see the Se. She doesn't look like an "inspector/sergeant" or whatever kind of alpha female. (I only normally see alpha behavior on SLEs because of 4D Se, and LSEs but in a different way). The Fe seeking is obvious. LSIs like being in a group where there are a lot of fun, joking, hugging. You can talk to them in a heart to heart manner, but you'll just be disappointed. They would prefer partying with a bunch of people instead of building a tight group they can rely on. She always talk about reserving a time for adventure every week - she joins whichever group is doing some random physical activity like hiking, swimming, etc. She doesn't want to stay in the house for too long. Very outdoorsy person. Loves and good at sports. Loves card games too. She enjoys being in cliques like a normal Beta type.

For some reason I notice that she succumbs to peer pressure a lot. I guess this is normal for Fe seeking types. She's the type of person who would hate where she is but would stay for the friends. They always go with the flow specially if things are fun and light.

Fe egos like her a lot and think she makes sense and is practical. Typical duality in action. The Fe egos are too emotional and swept with their drama, and she'll be the one to put reason on them so they calm down easily. Overall she comes off as a no-nonsense kind of person who has an adventurous and fun streak.

We were majoring in mathematics back then. She doesn't like geometry and other abstract mathematics. She loves more concrete mathematics like probability and statistics. Not the academic kind. Logic is used in practical means all the time. I never heard her talk about far-fetched ideas, she always talks about what is already existing.

What I also notice about her is her 4D Si. She always likes to be clean and have tidy surroundings. Low-key sensitive to clutter. She eats healthy food all the time, she sleeps on time, overall she's so good at taking care of herself.

She looks tomboyish. Wears clean but monotonous clothes (Shirt, pants, rubber shoes). Very simple in appearance. Doesn't wear colorful clothing.

If you are an intuitive type, Ne polr will be so obvious to you. The major pitfall for LSI is their inability to test their ideas on multiple frames and contexts. She is also terrible at predicting outcomes which I think is because of her low Ni. We were terrible students, so before exams we would always calculate the minimum score we need to pass the subject. I always had to help her with this, because if I don't she would always just assume the worst for the scores she doesn't know. For the future exams and the exams she hasn't gotten the score yet, she would just mark them 0-5% or something. I would notice that she would be down and would start thinking about sleeping everything off or hang out instead because passing the subject is impossible anyway (she said she'll need more than 100% to pass). So I'll check her estimate... it would be so off so I would have to ask her about details so we can get the correct estimate. She cannot assess if something is a) most likely to happen b) likely to happen c) unlikely d) impossible. It's like her head would just assume random things and blow it out of proportion. And since she has Ni HA she would feel that her assessments (that are mostly negative) are accurate which makes her Ni even more catastrophic compared to SxE's. She does this not only to her scores but to her whole life as well. I think because of my stronger Ni she would always ask me to give advice specially on decisions that rely on abstraction and prediction. I would be the one to explain to her why decision A would be the best outcome. (I notice that while she learns Ni from me, in turn I try to copy her Si). I also supply her Ne which is the cause of her black and white thinking.

If you ask her what her plan in life is, she will just laugh and tell you "Nothing, I do want to try (insert outdoors activity here like hiking) sometime." But at the same time you know that she really likes to be guided. When I was hanging out with her often, she would listen to my advice, but my Fe is not enough of course. That's the reason why we slowly parted ways actually. Man I really think duality is real and if you are an LSI you REALLY need an EIE. I guess this is just my opinion but LSIs are so vulnerable to Fe so ESEs would be the cause of their ruin. Last time I talked to her she started hanging out with a couple of Alpha people (mostly SEI and ESE), she got into some hedonistic alpha state. Not sure if she was happy, but she did mention that she was starting to feel lost in life. Never heard of her since then though, it's been a couple years.

To the bolded - that's what I was like 10-20 years ago, but my priorities changed since then. I think it's a college-age thing for alot of people. You gotta get the partying out of your system. Now I want stable relationships.

[myresearch]

This was the last part I wanted to talk about. I was thinking about making a whole thread about this, but there is something odd about Victim men and Aggressor women in heterosexual relationships, they defy traditional gender roles and norms imo. My SO hates weakness, would have left me if I cried in front of her, and does see emotions as weak. Now that we've been together I've shown more vulnerability and she has as well. But that was a long process. This slow acceptance of victim behavior in men that you mention sounds similar to my experience with aggressor women but in a romantic setting. I feel like beta ST women have to get comfortable with a man acting in a more feminine way (which I think victim behavior is in the end). I think they find it uncomfortable because it makes it more apparent how "masculine" they are as aggressors and society has taught them to be ashamed of this aspect of their personalty.

I think this is due to T female and F male dynamic, not Ni male, Se female dynamic. Think of a LSE woman and EII man. Think of SEE, SEE can easily say that s/he is hurt.

The thing that bothered me in our last conversation was that T women are not like F women at all. Ofcourse gender changes things a bit, however, they are still T and due to societal expectations and norms, this can be problematic as you suggested.

This has been a problem in one of my relationships as well. My situation can be partially related to nurture. I also don't like to be vulnerable. I never cried as a kid even in the times I was physically injured pretty bad. I think not accepting any kind of vulnerabillity is a vulnerability itself, it causes intimacy issues. A person can be admired but not truly liked or loved that way. It is difficult to accept a thing that you denied from yourself. Hence, I think your SO and your relationship can benefit if she can reach her vulnerable side. Same goes for F men, some have to get in touch with their assertive side a bit.

[EUDAEMONIUM]

I think this is due to T female and F male dynamic, not Ni male, Se male dynamic. Think of a LSE woman and EII man. Think of SEE, SEE can easily say that s/he is hurt.

The thing that bothered me in our last conversation was that T women are not like F women at all. Ofcourse gender changes things a bit, however, they are still T and due to societal expectations and norms, this can be problematic as you suggested.

This has been a problem in one of my relationships as well. My situation can be partially related to nurture. I also don't like to be vulnerable. I never cried as a kid even the times I was physically injured pretty bad. I think not accepting any kind of vulnerabillity is a vulnerability itself, it causes intimacy issues. A person can be admired but not truly liked or loved that way. It is difficult to accept a thing that you denied from yourself. Hence, I think your SO and your relationship can benefit if she can reach her vulnerable side. Same goes for F men, some have to get in touch with their assertive side a bit.

Lol I was waiting for this when you "liked" one of my posts on this thread. I thought "oh no myresearch found this thread "

I made this thread a while ago, when I first joined, I was thinking my fiancee was LSI or ESI already by then. I wasn't really thinking very deeply about it.

Anyway, yes, I do agree for whatever reason it makes for a strange dynamic when the female is a T type and the guy is an F type.

I saw what you were saying when I reread the first time I brought the thread back, that's why it made me cringe and I secretly hoped you wouldn't find it.

For me, my dad is an SLE and he would constantly be telling me to be tougher and calling me names. So I have a weird complex about being assertive and I tend to overdo it. My SO helps me not be so worried about acting that way.

The strange paradox of her development with me is that by accepting vulnerability she becomes more comfortable being her "strong" self. Everyone sees her as some cold mean robot and she hated that. I don't try to change her, I let her feel like its ok to be this "cold robotic" person (which she really isn't). She doesn't have to be something she's not with me.

She does not share her feelings and she doesn't really know them very well. She has a problem feeling close to people, she doesn't feel very connected to anyone (but me and her family). This is part of her upbringing, which is complicated.



These two characters are a lot like my SO and I. The highs and lows, the happy moments turning into arguments.

When we watched this movie we looked at each other and said this is us lol.

[myresearch]

Lol I was waiting for this when you "liked" one of my posts on this thread. I thought "oh no myresearch found this thread

You can run but you can't hide.

I made this thread a while ago, when I first joined, I was thinking my fiancee was LSI or ESI already by then. I wasn't really thinking very deeply about it.

Anyway, yes, I do agree for whatever reason it makes for a strange dynamic when the female is a T type and the guy is an F type.

It is good that she turned out to be your dual

I saw what you were saying when I reread the first time I brought the thread back, that's why it made me cringe and I secretly hoped you wouldn't find it.

For me, my dad is an SLE and he would constantly be telling me to be tougher and calling me names. So I have a weird complex about being assertive and I tend to overdo it. My SO helps me not be so worried about acting that way.

I don't know how you are irl, but you seem pretty ok here in terms of assertiveness. I don't think T types can be with someone dominant anyways

Even if you are less assertive, that might be ok. I think it is enough when someone can show their colors just a little bit when it is needed.

In my case, I was bothered by his inability to be on my side when I was fighting his fight. If he played the dead instead of smiling and responding to the jokes a guy that he whined and bickered about for months, I would be ok with it, that is the level of assertiveness that I expect lol. We were not compatible, no wonder we got seperated.

The strange paradox of her development with me is that by accepting vulnerability she becomes more comfortable being her "strong" self. Everyone sees her as some cold mean robot and she hated that. I don't try to change her, I let her feel like its ok to be this "cold robotic" person (which she really isn't). She doesn't have to be something she's not with me.

Sounds like true love

No wonder you guys are getting married.

She does not share her feelings and she doesn't really know them very well. She has a problem feeling close to people, she doesn't feel very connected to anyone (but me and her family). This is part of her upbringing, which is complicated.



These two characters are a lot like my SO and I. The highs and lows, the happy moments turning into arguments.

When we watched this movie we looked at each other and said this is us lol.

Cute