ESFp
Okay, so I'm an SEE ESFp (prolly Se subtype) 748 sx/so and all I see are threads here about people moaning about ESI and LIE threads. I hardly see any discussion threads about ESFp (even in fifteen years, yeash that's a long time). Okay, I get it that ESFps are outside and doing things, but we need at least one thread dedicated to them. This is it. Come discuss ESFPs and everything about them.
Give it a little narrative context. A pull...
How about SEE at work or in dual encounters or developing their strengths and managing their challenges while in a non gamma environment, etc
ENTj-Ni sx/so
Originally Posted by nanashi
- In work, I try to cope with my ESE Mum. She's a bit loopy and crazy. I think I ground her more. She has all these ideas, but she needs them to be realistic first but she's really fun sometimes.
- I like dual encounters and Gamma environments, especially being with my boy @falk and you. Irl, it's harder to find Gammas, to be honest. It's mostly Betas, Deltas and some Alphas. Deltas are fine, since we share the Fi-Te. Betas can be fun, but dramatic. Alphas are just crazy. I don't get them and they don't get me.
- The best way to manage a non-Gamma environment is just to do things. Distract yourself and get through the chaos. Just talk to people, get to know them better. Open up a bit. Try and manage the people, try and keep things going. Maybe be a bit entertaining?
- Honestly? I think that my strength is just being there, making things get done. Talking to people, keeping the flow going. I think that I need to wotk on bring less impulsive, but I'm never gonna lose my directness. If you don't like it, too bad.
What else?
(Probably a rubbish answer, but I tried).
Just some random thoughts (oh dear).
I think that because SEE have 4D Fe, they expect me to be emotionally expressive all the time, but I only ramp it up when I need to. I can be very "friendly" and "outgoing" when I'm scoping the area, testing the waters or am in an "emotionally expressive" background. Other than that, I'm pretty much the human equivalent of squidward when I'm alone at home, shut away and making music with my grumpy pile of Fi creative and critical opinions on society. Something like this anyway:
It's insane like how different I come off when people are out of the equation, which is actually kinda funny and ironic to me. I got typed SLI before because I'm "critical of society and aren't overly expressive all the time" on some place. Well, it's was like four in the morning. What did you expect? I'm not gonna be at my peak, am I? That's like sleeping time. REM time or something.
This mightn't make much sense because it's like one in the afternoon and I haven't slept for like twenty-two hours because I just tidied up some place and am tired as heck. Oh, and also good choice if you weren't a rapper, Salmo:
It's sorta like this, though. It's weird the difference that people make in regards to the demonstrative functions and environments. And the people you choose as your company. I went through a stage where I literally hated a lot of people in my year and thought of some sort of "revenge" plan for them. But then I realised, it was inly for two years but it was the longest two years of my life. Maybe there wasn't a lot of Gammas there. Or a lot of people who weren't from those specific estates [not like I am/was rich or anything. Growing up, I was pretty much the epitome of "broke and famous" because of my Mum]. Well, there were a lot of Alphas and Betas anyway. I got fed up with them (especially the Alphas) there and it almost pushed me to breaking point, but didn't give up because I fought with them. They tried to ruin my reputation. Especially the troll gypsy kids (not saying they all are, these two were especially). Anyway, I'm glad to be out of that place.
Anyway, that's just something I wanted to write because I was thinking about how vastly different people can be in company. I sort of thought about it because of Salmo (I was discussing this earlier and then boom, the video came into my suggestions and I clicked on it). He's really different in his interviews and his music videos, which is kinda like how I am in real life too. Vastly different depending on the scope and the current environment and what I need to do to accomplish things, you know? Yeah, this was random but who really cares. We're on here to learn about the different types and this is my contribution to the community.
ESFpart III
So, recently, I have been thinking a lot more about Socionics than I usually have and I notice a lot of misconceptions about how "Gammas" and Se Base types as a whole, as they aren't overly represented within the community overall (I want to say fairly, but equally will suffice). They seem to get a bit of a misunderstood (or even bad rap) for being "bullies" or forceful people.
Yes, it's true that I myself can be quite forceful at times, but I'm never forceful when it the situation doesn't call for me to be. I, myself know what situations call for forcefulness, and I also know that not everyone appreciates forcefulness for the sake of it within the given moment.
I can also come across as quite a friendly, relaxed person when the situation calls for it (but that's more so to do with the F side of things, rather than the Se side of things). I am a doer, and I do enjoy doing things in the moment and I also enjoy occupying my free time with a lot of pursuits (no, not just physical ones). I like the sense of completion and fulfilment that keeping busy in the moment gives me (and working towards goals, sometimes). I like to impact things around me, and I also like to talk to people. Yeah, sometimes I'm lazy (but all types are, all people are) and demotivated, and I have good days and bad days, but the present moment is the best place to be for me.
I'm a pretty decisive person usually too. Except for when I don't care, and the moment takes me away and I'm listening to music too. I can react fast or slow. It just all depends for me what's going on around me.
Daydreaming even happens sometimes, but when it does, it's very realistic. Concrete. And sometimes even in the form of a dream (well, almost always). I barely dream too. But that's another common misconception. That extroverted sensors NEVER have fantasies. Or never think about things they desire. That's called human nature. I just prefer to act those desires out if and when I can, rather than drool over them in my mind.
Seriousness is another thing. Everyone (who stereotypes Gammas) seems to think we're always serious, Tony Stark, stick up the butt, crass types. I can be that, but I like to be friendly (not necessarily inclusive, but more in an "I'm scanning and scoping the environment" relationship kind of way). Relationships are important to an extent, but they're also a business transaction in a sense (working ones, gaining things from relationships). The business of emotion, life, work, yadda yadda. Speaking of emotion, I like raw, intense, genuine unfiltered emotions. Genuineness. I can sense bs usually, unless someone is doing an amazing job.
And also, some SEE can seem like ESE until you dig under the surface of the demonstrative Fe. You'll find that they're two completely different kettles of fish. One is very positive, the other much more darker, realistic. Doesn't care about social norms or society half as much. Very raw and gritty. I mean, I can "pretend" to be Fe heavy for a while, but then the novelty wears off when the scanning is complete. The task is done. I know the absolutes. Alpha (especially Ne and Fe) values can be so saccharin sometimes that I'm pretty sure they're the number one cause of diabetes in the Socionics community. They're just not realistic to me, or how a lot of people outside of that realm function.
Also, since I'm musical, I'll leave you all with this song that's been grinding through my mind all night. Enjoy:
__________________________
P.S: COME ON, DON'T BE ARFAID OF PARTICIPATING.
PEOPLE ARE SO FRUSTRATING SOMETIMES.
I'm not gonna lie, they're also pretty gullible. They buy into the whole public outrage thing and don't look at the facts. They don't look at the situation and take a step back. They don't see the end goal. They don't see how it causes more division. They're very sheeple, the people as a collective and a whole. And they wonder why they're being criticised when they can't even think for themselves, which is alarming. They can't see past themselves. They can't see anything. It's worrying, isn't it? Like, find the facts of the situation and then react to those? In the moment, when you hear about the news, let it sink in. Then take a step back and evaluate it. I've had to learn how to do that and not get carried away. It's the best way to be, in terms of how society is right now. It feeds off people's reactions, like a leech. Distractions swarm the news. People take it too seriously.
Also, here's some bonus content. Just replace 'Milan' with the place of your choice. This is how I am feeling today:
Last edited by DEAD; 10-12-2020 at 03:33 PM.
Well it's no secret that I've been having a hard time with SEEs lately so it would be great if you could change my mind about them.
It might be better to change your expectations about SEE's, @calm.
SEE's are going to be providing you with fun and variety, and you are going to be providing them with advice on how to stay out of trouble. Anything else and you are trying to get blood out of a rock.
The problem is the kinds of SEEs (or possible mistypes as ESFj, which would make perfect sense since ILI are PoLR Fe and conflictors of ESE) which you've been associating yourself with. (Also, don't forget that ESE can come across like ESFp because of 4D Demonstrative Se, like how SEE can come across as ESE because of their strong 4D Fe Demonstrative). If you're sure that they're not mistyped, then they're assholes. You just haven't met a good one yet because of those ones. And they're ruining your experiences with SEE. The environment they were raised in and gender can also impact people. Culture too. And I'd be more than happy to change your mind about SEE (I'm a cool one) hereAsk away, learn away.
Well that’s depending on the individual person. I know that in general, SEE are seen as hedonistic. And forceful. And into “just fun” and “variety”. I think that those are surface level generalisations. Ages and enneagram also influence those people. I think that as I’ve grown, I’ve matured a lot as a person and have a lot more insight and knowledge as I’ve gained more experience in the real world. Yes, I’m still pretty impulsive, lack limits and like to push/prod people but I’ve learned to relax and pull back more. I’m starting not to be as troublesome as I once was.
It also depends on the ILI, but all in all, I think duality is very overrated as a whole. I just connect and click with people in the real world and in real time as opposed to on paper. That’s also the problem. The theory is a guide and it can help you understand things, but people take the theory too seriously and think that the principles inside the overall theory are the end all and be all when they aren’t. The theory is flexible. So are the principles inside it. Not everything is written in stone.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What a terrible oversimplification. This sounds more like IEE-SLI, honestly.
ETA: It is an oversimplification for that relation, too.
Last edited by voider; 10-22-2020 at 04:10 PM.
Descriptions of types get worse as the distance between the describer and the described increases. Plus, I'm not the most perceptive person I've ever known. So, criticism accepted, 100%.
@voider, could you write your own description of what ILI's can expect from SEE's?
And what SEE's see in ILI's?
lmao. I knew an LIE that mentored an SEE at work and it was kind of like that. The LIE clearly wanted the SEE to be rational, practical, conscientiousness, about his work, all things his dual is, but not SEEs. He got frustrated and stopped mentoring him. I was kind of surprised at the time because socionics says activators are a good relationship, but that wasn't happening. Then you have me, who's probably LII, but we got along pretty well. But maybe I was his mirror anyway or maybe I acted like that at the time I was there. I bet on a personal fun level he would have gotten along with the SEE more and less with me.
The success or failure of relationships depends to a great extent on what you are trying to get out of them. I get along fantastically well with LSI's as long as we are doing fun, relaxing things. As soon as we start to try to work together, our differences become glaringly obvious. They're not doing it wrong, and I'm not doing it wrong, but we're not doing it together.
Someone called Mirage a relationship of increasing relaxation. It may be that Activity is like that, too. It's fine as long as the point is to have fun, but as soon as it's time to get something done, it's not so much fun anymore.
my thread now!!
It is true that a part of the SEE-ILI relation is the SEE getting the ILI to engage more with the world and look things from a brighter side, as well as the ILI being cautionary and warning the SEE in any endeavours they might attempt that the ILI does not see as particularly fruitful or are maybe even dangerous.
But reducing it to that is a disservice, really.
Se-Ni duality, the way I see it, is supposed to break you out of your shell. Except the metaphorical shells for the Se base and the Ni base are in opposition: the Ni base is gripped by paralysis of action, the Se base is gripped by paralysis of forethought or insight. That is not to say each type is incapable of getting out and doing things or self-reflection. However, in my experience, self reflection has always been much easier when I've had someone guide me through it, or some sort of external outlet to process it. The mockery and stereotype that Se bases are incapable of considering the metaphysical is hilarious, because we are, and might even give more merit to it than the intuitives because it feels 'important' in a way. Still, I can only speak for myself in this context. At least for me, who's willing to work on myself and get to know what makes me who I am, I generally appreciate conversation that forces me to consider internal aspects of the self that I would otherwise never think of. So that's my shell.
I do think ILIs are plagued with inaction that's born from an overly negative perspective. I haven't had many dual interactions but from the conversations I have had with some, they seem to appreciate or at least admire my willingness to try things just to see if they will work, rather than giving up before I've even tried. It's not really about finding "fun" things to do, although I'm sure many appreciate that.
All this being said: I think it would take pretty mature people on both ends to make duality work. That's what I've always said. Especially for the Se-Ni axis, duality seems quite daunting. You're completely changing your worldview. The Ne-Si axis seems a bit more mellow... You're merely adjusting your worldview.
@Adam Strange
Ni doms have a mystical allure. We intuitively “just know” things
Other functions (Te-Fi) are also important in dualities.
Fi as Mobilizing Function (ILI)
The individual longs for establishing stable personal relationships with other individuals based on mutual trust and understanding where deeper and private feelings and experiences can be easily shared. However, the individual lacks the initiative to establish such relationships and usually expects others to make gestures in that area, admiring those who do so. In the context of extroverted ethics (Fe) as a vulnerable function, it should be emphasized that these types especially value emotional bonds where feelings go unsaid between partners, and are simply "understood."
Fi as Creative Function (SEE)
The individual is very adept at perceiving, establishing, and maintaining personal bonds between people. However, these bonds are often perceived as being situational and flexible rather than static. The individual is inclined to focus on establishing personal bonds with other people in the context of realizing or following perceptions from his base function. The person easily creates a sense of closeness and kinship between people by expressing like and acceptance, but these sentiments are situational rather than an expression of permanent feelings. If the person's mood or external situation changes, he or she may "turn off" the feelings instantly, even forgetting whom they had created the feeling of kinship with.
Read this sentences again;
ILI-In the context of extroverted ethics (Fe) as a vulnerable function, it should be emphasized that these types especially value emotional bonds where feelings go unsaid between partners, and are simply "understood."
Then;
A girl-student by the name of Laima (The Politician) gave a good description of this type when she tried to describe the hero of her dreams: He must be handsome and smart, with big and sad eyes, not talkative. He does not tell compliments, and by that he creates an impression of his inapproachability. He is taunted by myriads of problems, which, in my opinion are nothing to be bothered with. I am attracted by his sadness, seriousness, so I try to amuse him, to raise his spirits, to make him happy. If such a boy is present at a party, I wouldn't be bored.
ILI (MBTI INTP). 5w4
RE: Laima
I like challenges, but I don't like edgy anime protagonists. The real challenge would be trying to get with an LII, since they're meant to be conflictors and piss off the SEE, not an ILI Sad Boy. And why would he be at a party? That sounds like real torture to the ILI's Fe PoLR. Go to a business conference or something if you want to actually find an ILI because finding them at a party sounds really unrealistic (yeah, they might go if really forced to, but finding them at a party? Come on...) Parties are boring when you try and seduce sad boys. Just go get laid or something and have some fun. That's what they are for.
"...not an ILI Sad Boy..."
RE: Laima
I like challenges, but I don't like edgy anime protagonists. The real challenge would be trying to get with an LII, since they're meant to be conflictors and piss off the SEE, not an ILI Sad Boy. And why would he be at a party? That sounds like real torture to the ILI's Fe PoLR. Go to a business conference or something if you want to actually find an ILI because finding them at a party sounds really unrealistic (yeah, they might go if really forced to, but finding them at a party? Come on...) Parties are boring when you try and seduce sad boys. Just go get laid or something and have some fun. That's what they are for.
Of course not, but Fe PoLR
Descriptions of Dual Relations by Gulenko
ILI-SEE
4. Fe: vulnerable function of INTp and demonstrative function of ESFp
The SEE doesn't like it when the ILI actively pours out his emotions. He prefers that the ILI quietly sits with a serious and somewhat melancholic look in his eyes. The ILI himself needs to have emotional stability to be able to work. He enjoys relaxing and spending his time in a meditative state during which he can contemplate about the sublime, the wholeness of the inner world, and so on. The SEE is able to protect and shield the ILI from clamorous, boisterous emotions. Questions and discussions on this aspect are not appropriate; they can destroy these dual relations. The SEE should without any questions protect the ILI from any external turbulent pressurizing emotional influences by means of absorbing and dissipating them himself.
http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...ulenko#ILI-SEE
"...And why would he be at a party? That sounds like real torture to the ILI's Fe PoLR. Go to a business conference or something if you want to actually find an ILI because finding them at a party sounds really unrealistic..."
But this Laima's wish, so...
ILI (MBTI INTP). 5w4
Some ILI pictures (Fe PoLR)
ILI (MBTI INTP). 5w4
Ah yes, me and the dual:
Bruh...
ILI (MBTI INTP). 5w4
Duality is overrated, go out and enjoy life. Find someone you connect to. Enjoy the relationship. Have fun.
No SEE thread is complete without the SEE king himself:
Why are ILI-SEE duality descriptions seem a bit sick to me? Do some ILIs/SEEs enjoy what they read about their duals and their potential relationship with them?
Some people are sick. Including people who wrote the descriptions.
'Cause they're written by basement dwellers, where the only light they see is if someone accidentally turns on the light when they're loading laundry into the washer
You're beta (SLE), not gamma. Just like any other mistyped betas. Beta quadra members are here:
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...11-Beta-Quadra
Have fun
ILI (MBTI INTP). 5w4
Are you mad just because I won't take your virginity?
Joking aside, Beta NFs are even more annoying.
Bruh wtf, Loooool. Mad? No
Party guys are more like SLE
Last edited by INTprocrastinator; 12-03-2020 at 10:15 PM.
ILI (MBTI INTP). 5w4
SEE's have Te-Fi values (pragmatism). There are too many SEEs in the business world. The most serious quadra is the gamma quadra
ILI (MBTI INTP). 5w4
mb other values problem. it's alien. they do not suffer there. until noone is killed - it's good healthy relations
> Do some ILIs/SEEs enjoy what they read about their duals and their potential relationship with them?
They should, in case were not mistyped to those types. Also it's useful to have communications with good and bad IR people to understand the difference.
Types examples: video bloggers, actors
@DEAD
@voider
Wtf is Fi? What is creative Fi like? Is it something you think about, or just instinctively feel and know? Or something you just do? Both?
Do you see a big difference between you and Fi dominants?
Do the big blanket descriptions lumping Gamma & Delta Fi together accurately describe what Fi is like for you IRL?
Last edited by inaLim; 12-03-2020 at 10:45 PM.
Lol, I fear SEE is the least serious of the Gammas then. All SEEs I know either be like "I work this business office job to have enough dough to live in Mexico surfin' and partying with the girlzzz everyday for four months straight every summer" or working in less paying social worker/arts/sports/public relations/construction worker jobs.
They can be ambitious(Te HA) but their plan in life is not to live to work but to work to live. They love freedom too much to build a career in business most of the time. I see the other Gammas way more often in the business world. Maybe the SEE you see are ESI-Se. Having Te as inferior makes one take it much more seriously than as Hidden Agenda.
I rarely feel alone. I rarely talk to anyone, yet in my head i have the most amazing, the most fantastic discussions with the people in my life. In real life, what most people talk about is several orders of magnitude lesser than their inner experiences. Most people never reveal the singularity of their subjective experience.
Maybe I should learn to explore other people's consciousness. Maybe I should aim for a real space between me and others. Instead of cultivating monologues and fantasies. It's hard, but the alternative to this seems to be madness. ~ lkdhf qkb
Life is soup. I'm fork
Most of the Gamma I've met aren't really as serious as you make them out to be. Especially when they let down their guard. Have you not been out in the real world for a while? I think it's more individual people than just types. Some people with high Ti can be serious too. Pretty anal as well. And they're not even in "serious quadras".
I just think dualizing is bullcrap. Because no-one really completes anyone else, or makes up for the "weak areas" in reality. It takes a lot of work to understand another person, let alone have them magically "fill in your weak spots". Dualism is idealism most of the time, regardless of type.
Smart's SEEs are very ambitious. They are quite different from stereotypes. I guess I should have written this first
ILI (MBTI INTP). 5w4
I'm interested in hearing an answer on this as well.
Ambitious how?
No idea? I guess it's like giving a smoke to some random dude who's a friend of your brother's.
And talking to him about things. And you sometimes feel a connection to people like him?
Fi dominants have more morals. Less Se.
I dunno. Never looked into that deep enough. I thought it was different because of the + and - things
YES. LIE are the more serious, driven businesspeople.
If you mean to insinuate that SEEs that aren't ambitious aren't "smart" you don't understand Fi creatives at all. The people I was referencing are no stereotypes. They are humans that tried to choose their paths willingly. Out of every type, I'd think a Gamma would understand that intuitively. Intelligent SEEs make great leaders, they can rise to the top and encourage people around them to give their best. I wouldn't let them deal with the logistics of any business though, that's a job for Te egos.
I type JFK as SEE. Here some quotes:
Things do not happen. Things are made to happen. Every accomplishment starts with the decision to try. ~ JFKThose who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. ~JFKThose who dare to fail miserably can achieve greatly. ~JFK
I rarely feel alone. I rarely talk to anyone, yet in my head i have the most amazing, the most fantastic discussions with the people in my life. In real life, what most people talk about is several orders of magnitude lesser than their inner experiences. Most people never reveal the singularity of their subjective experience.
Maybe I should learn to explore other people's consciousness. Maybe I should aim for a real space between me and others. Instead of cultivating monologues and fantasies. It's hard, but the alternative to this seems to be madness. ~ lkdhf qkb
Life is soup. I'm fork
"If you mean to insinuate that SEEs that aren't ambitious aren't "smart" you don't understand Fi creatives at all"
-The answer I wrote was for your comment.
"Intelligent SEEs make great leaders, they can rise to the top and encourage people around them to give their best"
-Actually that's what I wanted to say
Those I met were very ambitious. They can be the dominant subtype. But ambition is related to the "Se function".
ILI (MBTI INTP). 5w4
It depends what your ambition ismaybe you're defining ambition in a Se-Te way I dunno(any type can be ambitious in his own way), but i wouldn't relate Se to business ambition. I would rather relate Se to notions of power, influence and self-confidence. The boxer Muhammad Ali is another famous SEE-Se:
SEE-Fi seem way more mellow.
I rarely feel alone. I rarely talk to anyone, yet in my head i have the most amazing, the most fantastic discussions with the people in my life. In real life, what most people talk about is several orders of magnitude lesser than their inner experiences. Most people never reveal the singularity of their subjective experience.
Maybe I should learn to explore other people's consciousness. Maybe I should aim for a real space between me and others. Instead of cultivating monologues and fantasies. It's hard, but the alternative to this seems to be madness. ~ lkdhf qkb
Life is soup. I'm fork
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