Advice on Se...

[Faith]

What can I do to make SxE or ESI (unvalued or poor Te) ppl to understand that something is part of a PROCEDURE that they (like everybody else) need to FOLLOW to qualify and get something done between 2 (or more) parts? Also how to get them to be considerate about the natural concerns (as happens between strangers doing business) and the property or goods of others?

I exclude LSI from the question because they usually follow procedures. However, Se leads as well as ESI (sometimes?) cannot follow them or refuse to follow them or ask ppl to try to skip them and make an exception with them (for no good reason!).

I'll appreciate your advices in how to make them to understand and stop trying to delay, postpone and hinder basic procedures. They sometimes make me waste time and money.

Thanks all in advance.

Edit. Its not teamwork or colleges, is about Se being clients. Clients that should fill certain requirements to we making a deal.

[necrosebud]

I am incredibly annoyed by them but I follow them anyway since I will get what I want faster than if I did not

maybe you could indicate to them what's in it for them if you will.

[myresearch]

Maybe it is not type related, I know ESIs that follow procedure no matter what and I know a SLI that doesn't follow procedure eventhough the procedure is there for a good reason. Sprinkle some Ni, bring up the consequences that could result from it.

[Beautiful sky]

fire them if they don't follow your instructions.
Aint nobody got time for muted resistance.

[Computer Loser]

What can I do to make SxE or ESI (unvalued or poor Te) ppl to understand that something is part of a PROCEDURE that they (like everybody else) need to FOLLOW to qualify and get something done between 2 (or more) parts? Also how to get them to be considerate about the natural concerns (as happens between strangers doing business) and the property or goods of others?

I exclude LSI from the question because they usually follow procedures. However, Se leads as well as ESI (sometimes?) cannot....

1. Setup a meeting so everyone can be on the same page

2. Have a printout of procedures you want your fellow people to follow

3. Explain not only what procedures should be followed by also WHY they should follow them

4. Set up boundaries/penalty/reward system. Like give a warning if someone violates the rules, and also reward them if they follow the rules

5. Have each of them sign the agreement on paper that they will follow procedures.

6. Have reminders/warning signs/sticky notes where appropriate to remind them what the procedures are.

7. Coach rather than rebuke... Constantly/gently remind and encourage the right thing to do. People always screw it up before they get it right so be patient. It takes time to instill correct procedures into the nervous system and it takes repetition

8. demonstrate (versus explain) what proper the procedure looks like

[Faith]

1. Setup a meeting so everyone can be on the same page

2. Have a printout of procedures you want your fellow people to follow

3. Explain not only what procedures should be followed by also WHY they should follow them

4. Set up boundaries/penalty/reward system. Like give a warning if someone violates the rules, and also reward them if they follow the rules

5. Have each of them sign the agreement on paper that they will follow procedures.

6. Have reminders/warning signs/sticky notes where appropriate to remind them what the procedures are.

7. Coach rather than rebuke... Constantly/gently remind and encourage the right thing to do. People always screw it up before they get it right so be patient. It takes time to instill correct procedures into the nervous system and it takes repetition

8. demonstrate (versus explain) what proper the procedure looks like

Thank you. In my case is not about teamwork or employees, is about Se ppl as clients. In a particular case, I've met with this guy and his wife like 7 times before and we have talked some more, we were about closing an operation like 8 months ago but he didn't concluded it. He appeared again to complete the operation like a month ago. I send him the list of the requirements and documentation I needed and he keeps sending them late and incomplete. Or asking if some could be skipped or simply skipping it by himself. We had an appointment Saturday from the last week. I gave him the list of requirements Monday morning (he already knew what they were since he attempted to do the same operation months ago as I already said). I said to him that he should send me the documentation as soon as possible to stuff being ready for his arrival. Then, he sent me the documents FRIDAY at 20:00 (no joke), and he asked me to SEND him that night the Policy so he could get it signed by other ppl. I was like OK, IT'S GOING TO TAKE ME LIKE 4 HOURS YA KNOW? (and I shouldn't be working to this hour but hmm). We met the next day and HE CAME WITHOUT THE POLICY SIGNED by the ppl who supposedly should sign and he said to me YOU SENT ME THE POLICY TOO LATE YESTERDAY... and I was like YOU SENT ME THE DOCUMENTS LATE FIRST!

He repeatedly tried to make me skip documentation too. Like CAN WE SIMPLY SKIP THE PROMISSORY NOTES? I DIDN'T KNOW THEY SHOULD SIGN AND MB THEY WON'T WANT! and I was like I DON'T CARE! OFC I CAN'T SKIP THEM!!!

And that Saturday he asked me to sent him other documents out of the blue...documents that I don't have so I should ask then to other ppl... (and its not me the one who should sent him documents, though is not either something wrong, just like its not common since its him who's asking for services).

[Tzuyu]

Those are some major red flags. Sounds like a good opportunity to exercise healthy boundaries.

Changing deadlines. This alone, I'd suggest offering an "overtime" or "emergency" rate that is at least double your agreed rate. Good clients will respect this, and maybe negotiate, but at least understand that shortening the deadline is a priority change that affects your whole schedule. This change, combined with your other red flags, I'd say if you are still willing to do the work start by getting the original amount up-front and lay out clear terms for a final bill that will account for your overtime/emergency hours. In software it's standard to get paid on the final bill before fully releasing resources -- I don't know about writing/editing but I'd say do it if you can since you already have another red flag looming for how you get paid.

One last thing, you are not ruining the relationship. They are. You are just protecting yourself and your livelihood. If that means canceling the job then sometimes that's what's best. If that means getting pushy right back at them, then that's fine too. Sometimes you gotta go with your gut and see what happens. Understandably, if things are tough during corona, get that extra cash, but in the future this behavior should be unacceptable. Plenty of fish, and all that

[panx]

Demonstrate clear Te benefits from procedures. Ain't nobody got time for that if that's just a part of some Ti/Fe thing (or seems so).

Also I personally have no problems with Se-people singing me things, keeping to deadlines (tho I'm very flexible and I can be the 'moving the deadline party' here) and so on. I have no idea why, maybe because as Ni I seem like 'yeah, this guy has the idea of what is he doing'. Or maybe because I always quietly take care of those things behind the scenes and we all don't mind. Dunno how this happens. I generally try to keep it as strict-procedure-free as possible in the first place, too (but I have that freedom to do so).

[Great]

words/COLOR]

I agree with this. Do this.

[FDG]

Se dominants as clients...?
Good luck.
Try to be their friend or adviser, dont be too professional. That seems to be the only way that works.
A reward system is good Idea but you would have to make Thema sign a contact.

[Adam Strange]

Sometimes Se-doms just want to fuck with you because they can.

If they send you the documents at the last minute, just tell them that there isn’t enough time for you to get them done, sorry. They can try again later when you give a fuck.

I watched an SLE screw around with a document for days and then tell a secretary on Friday at 4:50PM that she had to spend four hours typing it up THAT EVENING because it had to be submitted before midnight. She did it, but she should have said, “No, I already have other plans.”

Se is master of space and force (space force- sound familiar?) and sucks at time management, and is more than a little willing to assert force to make their poor time management your problem.

Just say no. You don’t even need to explain why not. They are Simply Out of Luck.

*EDIT*
OK, that sounded like an angry outburst, and it was, because the SLE in question was being very inconsiderate. This doesn't solve your problem, @Tommy.

I'd strongly suggest that you turn the account over to an ILI at any level of management. The ILI will proactively contact and remind the Se-dom that a deadline is approaching, do you have the documents? There is a deadline approaching, do you have this and that? Can you send what you have right now?
And the ILI will be able to set up the face to face meeting with enough time left so that when the Se-dom shows up at the meeting still without the documents, the ILI will still have time to get them.

IF you want this to succeed, turn the problem over to an Ni-dom.

[sbbds]

I think a lot of Se people will push you if they see that you can be pushed. Especially some SLEs, because Fi polr makes some of us not give a shit about relationships in certain cases. If you actually did their work for free until midnight, then it’s just “mission accomplished” for them... obviously it’s wrong of them to do that though. I’d be tempted to get revenge and reveal hidden terms they signed to and missed lol. Or just charge them extra next time and guilt them into paying it.

Honestly it’s not your fault.. maybe take this case to your manager and say we need better clearer terms in our contract that don’t allow clients to take advantage of you from now on.

[Computer Loser]

Yeah i think this person is clearly screwing u over. Time to play hard ball.

id hand him over the sheets with clear deadlines (u can even mark them in red to be super clear) and say sorry but we need to move things forward, please satisfy these requirements or we'll have to terminate the project / hand it over to someone else

[Sol]

smile

[Rebelondeck]

SLIs have been known to instruct people even when those people really do not wish to learn or understand - or listen. Eps and Ijs won't usually adopt the rationalization of others; they have to come to their own conclusions and they can't be force-fed. Unless SLIs are in charge or pose a real threat, they will never have influence over the thinking processes of others and they have to learn to curb their anger about this situational impotence.

a.k.a. I/O