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Thread: Do ESFps have ANY redeeming qualities?!

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by calm View Post
    But they lie COMPULSIVELY. They can not stand to tell the truth. Is it Ti polr? They will even say their name with an accent it doesn’t have, just to squeeze a lie in. They will switch around numbers if you ask for their phone number, just to lie some more. They love lying more than the reckless excessive irresponsible sex, and surprisingly more than they love stealing, and stealing men/women from people, kicking people while their down, and manipulating them, and abusing young children.
    No I don't think that's Ti PoLR. Does sound like a narcissist or someone who needs therapy however. If someone was like that I'd run.

    Lying about their phone number just sounds like something someone would do if they weren't interested in someone but were afraid to outright turn them down.

    Actually abusing someone sounds like someone who should be locked up for a crime.
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    Quote Originally Posted by calm View Post
    I want to put them all on an island and let them kill each other. I’d watch from my sailboat with binoculars.
    If any SEEs I know go missing I know where to start looking then. Lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by qaz00 View Post
    You remind me of this picture:

    lmao

    Imo I'm trying to be nice and tolerant for some reason... but the sad fact is that internally I'm nothing of the sort -.-, so when someone gives me enough reasons to lose trust.. it looks like suddenly I'm hostile.. but really it was that from the start, i was merely suppressing it for the sake of getting along.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMFAO View Post
    How does mbti ESTP correlate more to SEE in socionics? & What does mbti ESFP correlate most with then? I know the function definitions differ somewhat, but I still have way more knowledge in mbti than socionics so the relationship between the 2 theories is still a little fuzzy to me sometimes.

    Don't mean to derail the original reason for this thread, but I was genuinely curious when I came across your response about it. Especially since I usually consider ESTP or ENTP for myself in myers briggs (though I think ENFJ could be plausible too).
    The correlation chart I posted is from Expat (an old forum memeber here) as far as I understood at one point socionics experts typed MBTI descriptions in Kiev and that chart was the result. Original MBTI is just the dichotomies, no functions. Even so, the functional model is abstract and an attempt at describing internal information processing, even IF nowadays the MBTI tries to use functions, their Se for example is more like socionics Si and there are other differences which means you can't translate Se-Fi SEE into MBTI ESFP via the functions, because it won't be the same kind of person MBTI ESFP is describing.

    e_e so if we type someone by surface behavior here as ESFP... all 4 socionics types SEE, EIE, IEE and ESE are likely until we can actually check how that person thinks internally. I'm not good at this, so I try not to type ppl, which is why I was reticent to type you as well and its why I rely on data and statistics from authority figures in socionics such as Gulenko. It's simply safer than wild speculation and being wrong / misinforming a forum member, such as yourself here.
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  5. #85
    𝒯𝒽𝑒 𝐹𝓊𝒸𝓀𝒾𝓃𝑔 𝒟𝑒𝒶𝓉𝒽𝒹𝑒𝒶𝓁𝑒𝓇 Vex's Avatar
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    NONe of the types have ANY redeeming qualities. All people suck. There, I fixed the thread.
    devourer of the sun // consumer of the moon
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    that anything alone is
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    & any two things
    together is a terror.
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    RE: MBTI ESTP being SEE;

    Yeah, Selina Kyle is usually ESTP in MBTI (sometimes even ISTP) and I would type her as an SEE 6w7 sp/sx overall. There's always variance but it's possible.
    devourer of the sun // consumer of the moon
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    What use are flowers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by aster View Post
    I’ve had a bad experience with a SEE lately. I also think she’s enneagram 3, maybe 3w2 sx/so. I think that plays a part. But I kind of see what you mean. She was a huge liar, I couldn’t believe it. But I don’t think all SEE’s are like this. Maybe it’s also a combo of enneagram . And I think she was just plain fucked up. Maybe you are attracting people who are fucked up lol

    honestly I’d recommend just forgetting about socionics and focus more on your chemistry with another person and if it doesn’t work out it’s not the end of the world. I see people thinking too much about socionics and being too picky and over complicating things. makes it hard to find anyone like that, you’ll be 80
    What’s your type and can you elaborate on those experiences?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMFAO View Post
    If any SEEs I know go missing I know where to start looking then. Lol
    Ok what type are you? You’re alright.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    um, no. no type is a liar type
    well many SEEs constantly lie about many small things to idk, "look better" or such. If you observe them for a while it's clear and definitely not something that inspires trust. They may even straight out lie to your face and if you call them out they will try to talk badly about you among common acquaintances. It's pretty standard behavior for them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    well many SEEs constantly lie about many small things to idk, "look better" or such. If you observe them for a while it's clear and definitely not something that inspires trust. They may even straight out lie to your face and if you call them out they will try to talk badly about you among common acquaintances. It's pretty standard behavior for them.
    Damn all of you have such a dim fucking view of SEEs. But it's probably true, except I'm not a normie SEE considering I'm on this forum, so I can't really relate to it. I relate to the more innocent version of that which is white lies to make the other person feel better, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voider View Post
    Damn all of you have such a dim fucking view of SEEs. But it's probably true, except I'm not a normie SEE considering I'm on this forum, so I can't really relate to it. I relate to the more innocent version of that which is white lies to make the other person feel better, though.
    I didn't say all SEEs...one of my closest friends now is a SEE guy and he still constantly lies or covers up the truth about a load of small things, I don't fully understand his behavior, i prefer people to know where I stand so they can adjust, but anyway it's never over the top. Another SEE E3 I work with - she can really completely lie in your face and you have to show her an e-mail or something written where she wrote the opposite of what she is saying. She's still quite well-liked and can work very hard and has many positive qualities...
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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    See conversion chart:



    This makes sense why most ppl who go by behaviour attribute SLE to ppl like Trump for example, because he is ESTP in MBTI & behaviour... but a real SLE is more like MBTI ENTJ or INTJ.
    Wait, how was that data gathered? Were the people self-typed? Did they just compare the descriptions? This table makes it look like you can make equivalences like ENTJ<=>SLE, but I have an intuition sure that the methodoly behind it won't allow that kind of reasoning.

    And btw there's an error, the p/j dichotomy is not flipped in the table for introverts; like SLI and ISTP are considered the most probable type for each other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Wait, how was that data gathered? Were the people self-typed? Did they just compare the descriptions? This table makes it look like you can make equivalences like ENTJ<=>SLE, but I have an intuition sure that the methodoly behind it won't allow that kind of reasoning.

    And btw there's an error, the p/j dichotomy is not flipped in the table for introverts; like SLI and ISTP are considered the most probable type for each other.
    They translated the MBTI descriptions (the official ones) into Russian and had the socionist experts in Kiev type each description. The table is the result.
    Yeah, it seems SLI = ISTP. The J-P switch is just bs..

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    Quote Originally Posted by voider View Post
    Damn all of you have such a dim fucking view of SEEs. But it's probably true, except I'm not a normie SEE considering I'm on this forum, so I can't really relate to it. I relate to the more innocent version of that which is white lies to make the other person feel better, though.
    SEE's can quickly get a lot of hate when you're the type that both, wants to be in the spotlight at all times and has a devil may care attitude that charges in without thinking.
    Of course most of them may even deserve it, but SEE's are still amazing people in reality, though it's work to make it seem as such on paper.

    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Wait, how was that data gathered? Were the people self-typed? Did they just compare the descriptions? This table makes it look like you can make equivalences like ENTJ<=>SLE, but I have an intuition sure that the methodoly behind it won't allow that kind of reasoning.

    And btw there's an error, the p/j dichotomy is not flipped in the table for introverts; like SLI and ISTP are considered the most probable type for each other.
    P/J "dichotomy" as you call it is a lie dude, and I agree with that graph that it is most easily seen in SLI and MBTI ISTP. Both are extremely correlated to enneagram 9w8 while LSI and ISTJ do not have such a strong correlation towards it. In my experience socionics deals much more with how a person interacts with society, and while both deal with a person's personality, they are still extremely distinct in comparison. Enneagram seems to be a bit of a mash up plus some extras with a lot of claims but I don't hold a strong opinion of it either way.

    The same correlation happens with ILI and INTP, though it's less clear as both MBTI INTP and INTJ are strong fives, INTPs and ILIs move towards wing four while INTJs and LIIs move towards wing 6. Though of course that's just data, not a rule. It gets more interesting with extraverts, Se/Si, and Fi/Fe. Enneagram is just a quick way to show a third viewpoint here in relation to both MBTI and Socionics, a much more accurate analysis could make the same links without it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voider View Post
    Damn all of you have such a dim fucking view of SEEs. But it's probably true, except I'm not a normie SEE considering I'm on this forum, so I can't really relate to it. I relate to the more innocent version of that which is white lies to make the other person feel better, though.
    I usually like SEEs, personally. But types with stronger personalities ruffle a lot of feathers, and so people complain about them more -- ESEs are the Alpha equivalent. You shouldn't take it personally.
    Every man is as God made him, ay, and often worse. - Cervantes

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I usually like SEEs, personally. But types with stronger personalities ruffle a lot of feathers, and so people complain about them more -- ESEs are the Alpha equivalent. You shouldn't take it personally.
    Taking things personally is what I do best! I actually commented on this in my questionnaire, lmfao. There's rarely such a thing as objective judgement from my end, and I'll be the first to admit it. In the end, I'm not really willing to discuss these things in a vacuum in which I am removed from The Type, as this thread is not based on an objective viewpoint either. On some level many people experience identification with what type they've chosen for themselves, and I do too. So why shouldn't I defend my subjective perception from this person's subjective attacks?

    I realize it's a waste of time and energy. Still, it made me angry, and responding was the only way to let out that anger. Saying I shouldn't take things personally is not something that will ever be constructive, at least not to me -- my parents have tried very hard to convince me to stop, as if it's a matter I have much choice in. I don't. Not yet, at least. We'll see in 10 years.

    ETA: I still reacted with constructive on your post because it's constructive to point it out, but I really can't do anything with that information, is what I meant to say.
    Last edited by voider; 09-17-2020 at 09:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by calm View Post
    But they lie COMPULSIVELY. They can not stand to tell the truth. Is it Ti polr? They will even say their name with an accent it doesn’t have, just to squeeze a lie in. They will switch around numbers if you ask for their phone number, just to lie some more. They love lying more than the reckless excessive irresponsible sex, and surprisingly more than they love stealing, and stealing men/women from people, kicking people while their down, and manipulating them, and abusing young children.
    Wow that escalated quickly. Accusing a group of people of crimes like abuse is pretty heavy without any substantial evidence besides "All of the ones I know do that" and "If they tell you otherwise they are lying". From your posts you seem Fi>Ni. I would type you EII. Your dislike of them would make sense if it's a supervision relationship.

    PS: Everyone lies from time to time. No one has an obligation to provide you with the truth at all times. So no need to go apeshit about that. Manipulation, betrayal and abuse of power I can't condone though; what you describe sounds as if the SEE were using lies as some way to have "intellectual domination"(Te HA) which is pretty fucked up tbh
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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    The correlation chart I posted is from Expat (an old forum memeber here) as far as I understood at one point socionics experts typed MBTI descriptions in Kiev and that chart was the result. Original MBTI is just the dichotomies, no functions. Even so, the functional model is abstract and an attempt at describing internal information processing, even IF nowadays the MBTI tries to use functions, their Se for example is more like socionics Si and there are other differences which means you can't translate Se-Fi SEE into MBTI ESFP via the functions, because it won't be the same kind of person MBTI ESFP is describing.

    e_e so if we type someone by surface behavior here as ESFP... all 4 socionics types SEE, EIE, IEE and ESE are likely until we can actually check how that person thinks internally. I'm not good at this, so I try not to type ppl, which is why I was reticent to type you as well and its why I rely on data and statistics from authority figures in socionics such as Gulenko. It's simply safer than wild speculation and being wrong / misinforming a forum member, such as yourself here.
    The problem with this lies in the brutal difference between the cognitive functions of the MBTI and those of socionics.

    We could differentiate as follows. The cognitive functions of the MBTI are a way to justify the types at a deeper level, the true basis for the MBTI types are the dichotomies. The cognitive functions of MBTI are a simplification and vulgarization of Jung's cognitive functions, but worse.
    The MBTI is, to this day, a simple fandom for teenage girls, and a simple way to make profit from useless self-help books. MBTI personality types are simply fictional tropes in which kids search for a cool identity.
    Socionics is a "scientific" approach (I know this definition is not the most correct, but I cannot find the word in english) towards Jung's theory of cognitive types. It is much more complex and complete than any model, and it has a greater basis in tangible reality. Socionics also has a sort of central system from which all schools come from.

    I will give an example of why socionics and MBTI cannot correlate through IM and cognitive functions, mainly because of the contradictory and behavioral nature of MBTI functions.
    The xNTJ of the MBTI are Ni and Te, Ni in MB is related to long-term ambitions, tactics (socionics Se) as well as strategic thinking (Te and Ti in socionics), and Te is related to hierarchy and structure (Ti socionics) the will to power and domination (Se socionics) and effectiveness (Te socionics).
    Since Ni and Te in MBTI have more Ti and Se component than Ni and Te in socionics, it is safe to say that the MBTI INTJ does not correlate with the ILI but with the LSI, and that the MBTI ENTJ does not correlate with the LIE, but with the SLE.
    In my opinion, once you get into socionics, the best thing to do is to completely abandon the MBTI, because it is nothing more than a fandom. Damn, I myself have always tested in MBTI as INTJ and INTP without deviations, and in socionics I am completely lost.
    Last edited by Frddy; 09-17-2020 at 12:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by calm View Post
    Ok what type are you? You’re alright.
    Haven't completely figured it out yet. I have a type me thread, if you want to offer an opinion. Thanks though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frddy View Post
    Damn, I myself have always tested in MBTI as INTJ and INTP without deviations, and in socionics I am completely lost.
    This is merely my opinion: Ni HA in xSI imo can make one mistype as IxI.
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    Quote Originally Posted by calm View Post
    I prefer LIEs 100 percent. I’ll probably marry one of those. We can have a SEE child together to ease the mirror woes, I can just send the little shit to their room when their evil ESFP tendencies show up.
    ew, friend. your bitterness while you're hurting is gross.
    your grief over the betrayals..you're spewing bigotry instead of facing your hurt and moving through it.
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by voider View Post
    Damn all of you have such a dim fucking view of SEEs. But it's probably true, except I'm not a normie SEE considering I'm on this forum, so I can't really relate to it. I relate to the more innocent version of that which is white lies to make the other person feel better, though.
    Leave it to a SEE to try to justify deceit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I didn't say all SEEs...one of my closest friends now is a SEE guy and he still constantly lies or covers up the truth about a load of small things, I don't fully understand his behavior, i prefer people to know where I stand so they can adjust, but anyway it's never over the top. Another SEE E3 I work with - she can really completely lie in your face and you have to show her an e-mail or something written where she wrote the opposite of what she is saying. She's still quite well-liked and can work very hard and has many positive qualities...
    Lying is like breathing air to them. I’ve never met one who could tell the truth. They’d probably explode.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Wow that escalated quickly. Accusing a group of people of crimes like abuse is pretty heavy without any substantial evidence besides "All of the ones I know do that" and "If they tell you otherwise they are lying". From your posts you seem Fi>Ni. I would type you EII. Your dislike of them would make sense if it's a supervision relationship.

    PS: Everyone lies from time to time. No one has an obligation to provide you with the truth at all times. So no need to go apeshit about that. Manipulation, betrayal and abuse of power I can't condone though; what you describe sounds as if the SEE were using lies as some way to have "intellectual domination"(Te HA) which is pretty fucked up tbh
    Dude I’m an ILI, let’s move on from that. ILIs can hate SEEs. They are easy to hate for all the reasons I listed. Please tell me how Te hidden agenda equates to intellectual domination. The lying to me just confirms they are dumb as rocks.

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    For those in denial: this is what a troll thread looks like.


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    Quote Originally Posted by calm View Post
    Dude I’m an ILI, let’s move on from that. ILIs can hate SEEs. They are easy to hate for all the reasons I listed. Please tell me how Te hidden agenda equates to intellectual domination. The lying to me just confirms they are dumb as rocks.
    I think ILI's who enjoy the company of SEE's do so for social psychological reasons. It depends on how the ILI relates to others overall, and the amount of patience they possess..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samson View Post
    For those in denial: this is what a troll thread looks like.
    Yeah. e_e that's why I blocked OP. At least I managed to inject something constructive into the conversation.
    LSI-H - - Melancholy|Sanguine - 6w5-4-8 Sp/Sx - MBTI IST
    Oldham's Vigilant Type

    “The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed.”
    ― Carl Gustav Jung ―


  28. #108
    Evil, base, and insane Grendel's Avatar
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    Those who cause you the most pain are often the most valuable. The worst are usually the indifferent ones.

  29. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by calm View Post
    I am fed up with the duals in my life. I'm beginning to wonder whether duality is all it's cracked up to be because my ESFps seem to cause more headaches than they are worth. I have a dual parent, a dual friend, and a dual love interest and they are all looking like lost causes to me. I have had to deploy a ridiculous amount of forgiveness to tolerate them. No matter how much true love I display, it is never returned.

    My ESFp parent:
    -Abused me physically for the smallest things growing up
    -Could not tell when being manipulated by others and allowed those manipulations to lead to the abuse of others, especially me
    -I never truly felt loved by this parent unless something was up. I was supported financially, but it is routinely thrown in my face
    -Married to a mirage, miserable, perpetual cheater, and appears selfless to others but those closer to the circle witness the truth selfishness of their actions
    -Cares a lot about appearances, but underneath it all is an awful rolemodel
    -Never reaches out to me first but complains to others that I don't try hard enough to mend our relationship (because as the child that's obviously my job)

    My ESFp friend:
    -Great for partying or adventures, but has mood swings and becomes very emotionally manipulative
    ex: If I'm dating a guy and I'm happy but she isn't, she will try to manipulate my thoughts about the guy
    -Doesn't listen to sound advice, but when shit hits the fan, expects me to suffer with her
    -Nowhere to be found when I'm depressed or have mood swings of my own
    -Allows other friends of questionable morale to come between us
    -Uses everyone, has 0 interest in someone who doesn't apparently have something she can use (money or fame)
    -Won't tell anyone how she feels but expects them to "know", (My Fe polr won't tolerate this at all)
    -Randomly chooses to ignore me, abandon me, and give me the cold shoulder and is appalled when I don't run back to her
    -Will reject people's help if she didn't lie, swindle, or seduce them to get her way
    -Will be jealous of people who work for what they have, unlike her
    -Admittedly hates seeing people happy if she is not
    -The entire friendship gives me the feeling that she wishes I were a lesbian and in love with her, that way she could seduce me and take advantage of me
    -Will pretend she has no money so I'll pay for her
    -When I buy her food or something she needs, she never shows appreciation. She might say thank you once, but quickly makes a habit of becoming entitled to the good treatment. Continues to complain that no one cares about her.
    -I never know where I stand with her and am constantly walking on eggshells to keep her happy
    -Gives the impression that she could care less about our friendship even though it's obvious I am quite literally the only genuine friend she has.
    -Will run off when I try to stand up against her mistreatment then shit-talk me and tell a twisted version of what happened to whoever is willing to listen, one time she painted me as an awful person on social media.

    We are currently on an OFF stage and I've decided to let her go. She is in bad financial shape and deeply in need of someone and I've decided to leave her to the wolves. Why should I, the better friend (not to mention, the Victim), have to chase her?

    My ESFp love (interest?): I'll start this off by saying it has been extremely hard to find a straight, male ESFp. I'm starting to wonder if they even exist...
    -No solid career, no stable income and no concrete plan to have either
    -Easily spends what money he does have on useless things
    -Easily swindled into get rich quick schemes
    -No desire to "be a man" and work or take care of a woman
    -I once told him I was in a bad situation, he showed no concern ("Gotta go, you're being too negative")
    -Is taken care of by and living with his mother
    -Hypersexual Tinder addict whose admittedly slept with close to 200 girls
    -Keeps mentioning transwomen and gay men, being "mistaken" for gay, to the point of suspicion
    -Hard for me to tell when his compliments or anything he says is sincere, because...
    -He is constantly lying about even the smallest things, just for me to catch him in his lies because he never remembers them once they leave his mouth
    -Is also attracted to people with money and fame, leading me to wonder if I will be used for these things or left for someone with more of it
    -Tells me he likes me, has fun with me, but never texts me first or makes plans with me

    With duals, it's like I'm constantly trying to force them to see the value in me and in our pairing, no matter how much they are benefitting from it.
    The things they value are things I have but refuse to be used for like money. I instead would like to help them make money using their talents and dissuade them from making bad decisions or hanging around the wrong crowd. I do all this expecting nothing in return. And yet, they tend to hurt me more than any other type I have relationships with. And though we have good times together, I end up feeling like I get nothing out of the pairing. They have proven themselves to be selfish, self-serving, and willing to do anything with anyone to meet their needs.
    They don't seem to stand on any moral principles, can't tell which friends or love interests are worth their time and effort, and are constantly using me as an emotional punching bag if not just stringing me along. It has caused more damage to my trust and self esteem than growth in my opinion. I almost wish I was a different type so I wouldn't have such an awful dual type. No matter how much help you give them, they are a bottomless pit and will have you feeling like you put time and effort in for nothing. Then they happily move on to someone who treats them worse but is more loved and appreciated by them than you were.
    Sounds like a narcissist or a sociopath, that last guy.

  30. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samson View Post
    For those in denial: this is what a troll thread looks like.
    Pandemic boredom kicking in strong. Lol
    If you got a problem with me call 1800-who-cares

    If it ain't money in your pocket, don't worry about it

  31. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by voider View Post
    Taking things personally is what I do best! I actually commented on this in my questionnaire, lmfao. There's rarely such a thing as objective judgement from my end, and I'll be the first to admit it. In the end, I'm not really willing to discuss these things in a vacuum in which I am removed from The Type, as this thread is not based on an objective viewpoint either. On some level many people experience identification with what type they've chosen for themselves, and I do too. So why shouldn't I defend my subjective perception from this person's subjective attacks?

    I realize it's a waste of time and energy. Still, it made me angry, and responding was the only way to let out that anger. Saying I shouldn't take things personally is not something that will ever be constructive, at least not to me -- my parents have tried very hard to convince me to stop, as if it's a matter I have much choice in. I don't. Not yet, at least. We'll see in 10 years.

    ETA: I still reacted with constructive on your post because it's constructive to point it out, but I really can't do anything with that information, is what I meant to say.
    well I don’t think you seem like a liar... never thought oh that voider must be a liar because she’s SEE lol. you seem pretty honest and chill to me imo
    Pisces 🌞 Pisces 🌚 Virgo Rising

  32. #112
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    Duals angry at each other.
    People trying to retype people.
    OP is called a troll and blocked.

    I voted 5 stars.

  33. #113
    Evil, base, and insane Grendel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    Duals angry at each other.
    People trying to retype people.
    OP is called a troll and blocked.

    I voted 5 stars.
    doolz mad

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