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Thread: Incels

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    Default Incels

    I believe that this phenomenon is going to keep getting more pronounced. We need a thread about it.

    * How do you define it? FWIW, there are Femcels in addition to Incels.

    * What do you think are the causes?

    * What are the solutions?

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    For a person to be involuntarily celibate, they have to want to have sex only with people who don't want to have sex with them. In other words, we can assume that they aren't willing to lower their standards enough to get laid, because even a dog will hump your leg.

    The voluntarily celibate are a different group.

    The causes of involuntary celibacy are diverse and include unrealistic expectations for a partner, an unrealistic view of oneself, inexperience combined with bad habits which put people off, a lack of suitable partners for whatever reason (living in Antarctica, for example), and mental illness.

    "Solutions" to involuntary celibacy include getting lucky with some person of the desired orientation, lowering your standards, moving to a new location, changing your perspective on what the object of attention might want (maybe being a pickup artist isn't actually what the object of your affection wants after all, despite all those lessons which said the contrary) and then providing it, and giving up, the last which allows the person to finally leave the incel category and move into the "voluntarily celibate" category, where you might not be getting laid, but your dignity is preserved because, at least, you aren't having sex with dogs.

    Metaphorical dogs. I meant metaphorical dogs.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 09-04-2020 at 04:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    The causes of involuntary celibacy are diverse, and probably include unrealistic expectations for a partner, an unrealistic view of oneself, inexperience combined with bad habits which put people off, a lack of suitable partners for whatever reason (living in Antarctica, for example), and mental illness.
    Do you think that depression may play a huge part?

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    Do you think that depression may play a huge part?
    I think that "depression" can fall into the category either of having an unrealistic view of oneself, or mental illness. But a lot depends on what causes the depression. If it's caused by not getting laid, that can be cured by temporarily lowering your standards. Assuming that they aren't already at the species borderline.

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    The psychologist who performed the famous Stanford Prison Experiment has an interesting take (as usual). It seems like inceldom is part of a larger trend of young men falling behind in more aspects of life than sex and relationships—this includes work and education.

    He blames the hyper-stimulus of video games, porn, and the Internet. The shift to an isolated virtual reality means that fewer boys are growing up to understand the nuances of social interaction, especially body language. Not understanding body language means entering into social interactions with women as though they're an alien species. The consequent rise of shyness and social awkwardness has led to the atomization of a large segment of the population.


    This was posted nine years ago, but none of the factors he talks about have really changed since then.

    Last edited by xerxe; 09-09-2020 at 02:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    For a person to be involuntarily celibate, they have to want to have sex only with people who don't want to have sex with them. In other words, we can assume that they aren't willing to lower their standards enough to get laid, because even a dog will hump your leg.

    The voluntarily celibate are a different group.

    The causes of involuntary celibacy are diverse and include unrealistic expectations for a partner, an unrealistic view of oneself, inexperience combined with bad habits which put people off, a lack of suitable partners for whatever reason (living in Antarctica, for example), and mental illness.

    "Solutions" to involuntary celibacy include getting lucky with some person of the desired orientation, lowering your standards, moving to a new location, changing your perspective on what the object of attention might want (maybe being a pickup artist isn't actually what the object of your affection wants after all, despite all those lessons which said the contrary) and then providing it, and giving up, the last which allows the person to finally leave the incel category and move into the "voluntarily celibate" category, where you might not be getting laid, but your dignity is preserved because, at least, you aren't having sex with dogs.

    Metaphorical dogs. I meant metaphorical dogs.
    In a very fitting and Ironic sense, those who refuse to lower their standards tend to be women. Dudes will do so instinctually because we get, on a fundamental/genetic level, that we're pretty gosh darn expendable.

    It's the ultimate "shit test" from their fallen end sadly. In a world without Christain virtue, the only real measure of a man's "value" is his ability to gain and secure a harem of hot bitches. If he can he's a saint, if he can't his only worth is in being the bitch of the males and harem members of those who can. Y'know, a Eunich with the small mercy of not having to actually have their nuts chopped off (though for all intents and purposes they might as well do so).

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    It's a little weird to me, I mean not 'weird' in the good way either. I'll try to explain why.... (I'll probably be misunderstood here but whatever)

    The goal of any relationship isn't to have sex. The goal of a relationship is to be intimate and bond with somebody, sex is a tool only to enhance that deep bond- it is never the end goal. Sex is a part of that, sure, but it isn't merely about getting your rocks off, as that's pretty childish/immature and stupid and not really that sexy tbh. Any relationship that becomes about sex, even among socially well-adjusted Normies- won't last.

    To be bluntly honest, I have probably gotten myself completely off in a completely physical sex way all by myself- as only I really know what I like more than anybody else anyway. Another person just can't 'give this' for you. You yourself gave it to yourself subconsciously first before the other person entered the picture anyway. It's not fair that society stigmatizes sex so much, but sex is stigmatized like that *because* of how inherently selfish and narcissistic it is lol.

    If the sex with you and another person is amazing, and you also get along with them and can be intimate and bond with them - that's amazing, but not everybody can find that of course. And as Dan Savage would say it does just suck. But it feels to me they are looking at the end goal of 'sex' rather then all the little things in life that get you there.

    When you're talking to a person you really shouldn't start at a level of pure perversion (ie sex) because ... once you both fulfill that need it's bound to get stale over time anyway and then. you are left alone again. The fun pervy stuff needs to enhance and take a supportive role to the the deep love and bond u both share already, not the other way around. You can't really ever fall in love with somebody that sadistically hates your basic bitch natural impulses either. Of course my physical body is going to respond to a 'Chad' better than an obese pudgy dude with glasses- c'mon now, but it doesn't matter as much as ppl think actually. It doesn't mean I'm going to fuck every Chad I see, or every Chad that even wants me. (I have turned down Chads before too)

    So they complain people won't fuck them... and they want people to fuck them. It seems to be more their low self esteem attitude & hyper focus on sex over intimacy that is the true culprit, and the fact they are hunting for sex at the get go instead of social connection. The ironic thing about a lot of Chads (especially the heterosexual ones) is they are sexy and great in bed and have big dicks - but sex and perving out is actually not their main goal in life at all. Like ever. As Buddha or every lame self-help book at Barnes N Nobel would tell you, you get what you are asking for when you let go of trying to get it.

    But I am sorta removed from the Chad-Stacy thing anyway as my type of sex isn't really about breeding for superior genes or anything anyway obviously - I mean I will give a guy a chance if he's average. Remember it's about MINDS connecting not just bodies. I prefer 'average' usually to ultra Chad or super ugly anyway but that's just me. The type of alpha straight males some of the females I know fall for , are repulsive to me personally. They smell so bad even if their dicks are huge, I don't know what they were thinking tbh but heterosexuality is gross to me that way. I'm not turned on at all by the machellivian power play crap or the deep voice drug dealing thing in SLE male-IEI female het relationships lmao. I think in a way that kind of heterosexuality deserves to be mocked or scorned even- but in the incel brain it's put up as the glory of all that is? No wonder they are depressed.

    And I think it's misunderstood as the highest form of heterosexuality because of course, guys like that DO stereotypically get the most str8-fs even if society pretends to deny otherwise because it's 'not nice.' But ime a lot of Chad's offspring come out ugly, autistic or gay or with other problems deviating from the norm, so I don't think you can say it's objectively 'the best.' Otherwise a Chad SLE fucking an IEI would have a perfect kid and they don't. Beta males who also contribute to society probably have the most well developed kids anyway (and probably Alphas or Deltas too) but it is largely about an omega male being jealous/envious of a Chad.

    The SVU episode where they were mean to incels was kinda overly Normie-like and stupid tbh. Mariskkka I just want your money-gay is way too biased and I don't like her because her husband is this chad, and she's just like a bully that wants to provoke incels with her perfect husband. It's actually really mean and sadistic, yet she convinces herself she's in the 'right.' She'd have a lot more credibility if her husband was more beta or regular looking and not so over the top popular or preppy. And yet she thinks she's this savior for 'sexual abuse' people or something... lol

    Plus to me it's like she would obviously allow a Chad sexual abuser off the hook because she's personally turned on by him, which is repulsive and not "moral" like she tells herself - but she would want to punish the uglier one. Those sex police cops have no true objectivity and it's gross. I don't really trust her. Sorry that I'm harsh but I don't really like the bitch- plus I think she values Te. =D If you want somebody to judge other people's sexual choices like that- don't use a Normie Cunt, use a person who is legitimately asexual and nerdy cuz at least then they can't be so biased. I wish asexuality was more real than it probably is, cuz I think it would make a lot of systems better as people do tend to be super biased and unfair based on what turns them on while trying to manipulate other people that it's something else. I see through this shit tho. You can't really blame incels and beta/omega males for being mad at that- but we are still responsible for our own actions and ppl should follow the law if the law is truly fair and right.

    (of course in the episode she made incels as over-the-top villains to make herself feel superior while her Chad husband fucks her. )

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    But ime a lot of Chad's offspring come out ugly, autistic or gay or with other problems deviating from the norm, so I don't think you can say it's objectively 'the best.' Otherwise a Chad SLE fucking an IEI would have a perfect kid and they don't. Beta males who also contribute to society probably have the most well developed kids anyway (and probably Alphas or Deltas too) but it is largely about an omega male being jealous/envious of a Chad.
    This is really true. It’s not even about better chances at reproduction in reality, it’s about chasing a hedonistic vision.

    I guess the internet has made porn and other kinds of both Chad and Incel culture related things more highlighted and accessible too, just like how dual IEs can only strengthen one another. The middle gets smaller and smaller and more forgotten as more people see these only two options, get influenced, and then move to either extreme. This intensifies as it repeats.

    Obviously it’s easier to be an Incel and there are more of the Incel-prone on the internet being influenced by these things and commiserating with one another, so the majority and the most noticed now are Incels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    I think this guy is SLE. His testosterone is off the charts, which makes his voice high and squeaky.

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    If an incel hated me for fucking Chads in the past and wanted me dead for it- of course I'm not going to get into a relationship with somebody like that, they're being creepy and insecure and too jealous, and not forgiving either. They are encouraging other people to make fun of them anyway , which unhealthily fuels their righteous victimhood.

    But if it was an incel that was very caring and understanding of how sometimes I'm a basic whore that puts my head into Chad ass- and doesn't hold it against me, he instantly just made himself look that much more desirable lol.

    "Empathy" sounds corny and lame but in the end I think it's what we all crave???

    I guess another way around, I don't hate Normies for being Chad-Stacey like but I do hate them if they use it to bully other people with it.

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    It's objectively harder now for people to form friendships than it was some time in the past. That is actually a true problem that requires addressing.

    But a man should under no circumstances stake his self-worth on female attention. Unless he's already winning it automatically, he will run himself into the ground. This is ageless wisdom. You only have one life; its goal should not have to be as spermbank and muscle for offspring that'll in all likelihood hate you, if that isn't already your heart's desire. Don't ever let anyone tell you that. It's not worth wasting on the trinket that everyone is murdering each other over.

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    The 'Chad' is such a modern concept. Never in the history of mankind has the Chad been viewed as the best partner for reproduction. Even in ancient Greek literature, they talked about how great Socrates and Diogenes were. Both of them were scrawny intellectual types, without any serious means of livelihood. Surely Beta males by modern standards. The Chads would have been the gladiators or the soldiers. They never make it into the history books.

    Many forms of celibacy had been praised and rewarded, especially for men. Incels can't really see this. They're mentally ill.

    If I had to be alone for the rest of my life alone, I would be okay, as would anyone else. Sometimes life sucks. How hard is it to get over that? And besides, by incel logic, if women were all dumb prostitutes who slept with every Chad, why would anyone want to be in a relationship?

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    Having babies is expensive and playing and watching porn on the internet is inexpensive. It’s even more inexpensive than being generally socially acceptable and dating like the hypothetical regular person now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    I believe that this phenomenon is going to keep getting more pronounced. We need a thread about it.

    * How do you define it? FWIW, there are Femcels in addition to Incels.

    * What do you think are the causes?

    * What are the solutions?
    entitlement to someone else's body is self-delusion. Stop deluding the self.

    The ideology is also patriarchy infused. Basically a dude self-flagellating over not being ______ enough. Get's whiney and takes it out on women.

    Going the incel route is like shitting all over the floor.

    it's a confused, uncomfortable action.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Panda View Post
    The 'Chad' is such a modern concept. Never in the history of mankind has the Chad been viewed as the best partner for reproduction. Even in ancient Greek literature, they talked about how great Socrates and Diogenes were. Both of them were scrawny intellectual types, without any serious means of livelihood. Surely Beta males by modern standards. The Chads would have been the gladiators or the soldiers. They never make it into the history books.

    Many forms of celibacy had been praised and rewarded, especially for men. Incels can't really see this. They're mentally ill.

    If I had to be alone for the rest of my life alone, I would be okay, as would anyone else. Sometimes life sucks. How hard is it to get over that? And besides, by incel logic, if women were all dumb prostitutes who slept with every Chad, why would anyone want to be in a relationship?
    Yeah, masturbation is great. You know what your body likes. If you're healthy, you like yourself. Good experience.

    Sure, love and someone wanting to have orgasms with you would be great, but it doesn't overwrite how great helping yourself cum is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I think this guy is SLE. His testosterone is off the charts, which makes his voice high and squeaky.
    Zimbo is probably EIE. If not that... Ehh, maybe SLE, somehow. Anyway usually he is typed EIE. Beta.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Panda View Post
    The 'Chad' is such a modern concept. Never in the history of mankind has the Chad been viewed as the best partner for reproduction. Even in ancient Greek literature, they talked about how great Socrates and Diogenes were. Both of them were scrawny intellectual types, without any serious means of livelihood. Surely Beta males by modern standards. The Chads would have been the gladiators or the soldiers. They never make it into the history books.
    It depends on culture and society (or even societal circle). Yes, in Ancient Greece you can definitely find 'let's sleep with Diogenes for his wisdom' (even in proto-eugenics of Plato and his 'castes'), but you also have Spartans, appeal to strength and youth (as virtues and something applicable to gods/heroes) etc. Actually, back then (and probably now) a lot of people (most) would side with 'an ideal man would be as much physically strong as intellectually strong'. Quite Chadesque, if you ask me, as Chads are not dumb (in original 'who is Chad' construct). And I'm telling this as a scrawny 'beta' man. It's not like physical attributes are not taken into account - they usually are. You have to be 'better' at something to maybe bring attention of people. Usually physical traits are noticed more easily and readily, so... Jealousy.

    Furthermore, opinion on 'what an ideal man is' of, for example, Thomas Aquinas has little to do with opinion of an average/representative woman of his time. You can tell this and this should be wanted, but it changes little in terms of average preferences. And physical attraction enters the chat (again).

    (and, well, even if we don't know many of them by name, multiple soldiers of higher ranks lived 'better' lives in terms of glory, attention, offspring and money than Greek philosophers)

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    I think most incels neglect to develop basic friendship skills and hate themselves and don't want to just be open/vulnerable. Basic friendship skills and being open/vulnerable and not hating yourself make being around you enjoyable. People like to enjoy being around someone. It's really not that complicated. They think it's unattainable and tragically write themselves off. I know so many men and women who fall in love with much less objectively physically attractive ppl but see that person as incredibly attractive.

    Finding someone you have chemistry with is the challenge, ime.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    Yeah, masturbation is great. You know what your body likes. If you're healthy, you like yourself. Good experience.

    Sure, love and someone wanting to have orgasms with you would be great, but it doesn't overwrite how great helping yourself cum is.
    I thought the implication is clear that I'm talking about the toxic black pill community and not just your average lonely dude who just wants a girlfriend. I mean, have you seen the incel community online? They created one of the most toxic communities online, where they sincerely believe that women are all trash and men are either Chads or they're incels. Do you need me to post a whole bunch of screenshots, because I can.

    Men who happen to be celibate are extremely different from those that identify as incels and participate in the subculture. The incel community exists exclusively online and is a part of their identity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    It depends on culture and society (or even societal circle). Yes, in Ancient Greece you can definitely find 'let's sleep with Diogenes for his wisdom' (even in proto-eugenics of Plato and his 'castes'), but you also have Spartans, appeal to strength and youth (as virtues and something applicable to gods/heroes) etc. Actually, back then (and probably now) a lot of people (most) would side with 'an ideal man would be as much physically strong as intellectually strong'. Quite Chadesque, if you ask me, as Chads are not dumb (in original 'who is Chad' construct). And I'm telling this as a scrawny 'beta' man. It's not like physical attributes are not taken into account - they usually are. You have to be 'better' at something to maybe bring attention of people. Usually physical traits are noticed more easily and readily, so... Jealousy.

    Furthermore, opinion on 'what an ideal man is' of, for example, Thomas Aquinas has little to do with opinion of an average/representative woman of his time. You can tell this and this should be wanted, but it changes little in terms of average preferences. And physical attraction enters the chat (again).

    (and, well, even if we don't know many of them by name, multiple soldiers of higher ranks lived 'better' lives in terms of glory, attention, offspring and money than Greek philosophers)
    Im not talking about sex necessarily, I'm talking about social status and how the two are linked. The difference between a man who is just a good person and get plenty of dates and a Chad, is that a Chad is a pick up artist. He is an alpha male. His thoughts are centered around getting laid and subduing other men. Such behavior is rewarded now but never has been rewarded or culturally enforced before. There's an entire industry of men who will teach guys to get a whole bunch of women, not just one. That's sort of what I'm getting at. Whereas, restraint, which was praised before as a virtue is disappearing. Now you have these incel communities of men who want to be Chad but can't.

    Edit: Incels live in the periphery of the manosphere. And just like with the rest of them, it's never really about sex. MGTOW isn't really about men going their own way and the Red pill really isn't about educating yourself out of the matrix. It's like a group hypnosis. To quote the worst of them, Donovan Sharpe, "Men only want women for sex." The guy has around 70k subscribers and has a course that will teach you how to dominate your woman. I'm trying to point out that this is what the incel community feeds off of. A guy who, as Sharpe claims, works 16 hours a day on his red pill content about analysing sex and sexual relationships is not really into sex. Just like how an entire community founded on misogyny and to be honest, misandry too, isn't really about being incels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Panda View Post
    Im not talking about sex necessarily, I'm talking about social status and how the two are linked. The difference between a man who is just a good person and get plenty of dates and a Chad, is that a Chad is a pick up artist. He is an alpha male. His thoughts are centered around getting laid and subduing other men. Such behavior is rewarded now but never has been rewarded or culturally enforced before. There's an entire industry of men who will teach guys to get a whole bunch of women, not just one. That's sort of what I'm getting at. Whereas, restraint, which was praised before as a virtue is disappearing. Now you have these incel communities of men who want to be Chad but can't.
    Naaah, Chad is not a pick-up artist. What makes Chad Chad is that he is a natural. He was born with high charisma, looks, confidence and some brain. He is not necessarily outright hostile to other males either, although he keeps a very high social position. Blackpills argue that since they weren't born with it and life is unfair, it's time to take a black pill and give up. They usually are very critical of Redpills, who argue that it's 'mainly in your brain' and you can change it (mind both Redpill and Blackpills add a lot of misogyny to it). Redpills think that you can become a pick-up artist or something Chadesque 'alpha' (but again, not exactly a Chad, since to be a Chad you would have to be most probably born with it, with maybe some exceptions like Zyzz - either way, win a genetic lottery in potential).

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    Here he talks about the lack of male role models. There are very few male teachers in schools, and female teachers tend not to understand the needs of boys. There is, consequently, a statistically significant teacher bias against boys, and boys are receiving lower grades than girls in school.

    He also touches on the subject of fatherlessness, which creates a huge void with respect to the presence of male role models. This likely has serious implications for some important pillars of feminist advocacy, like the toleration of single motherhood as well as the push for easier ("no fault") divorce.
    Last edited by xerxe; 09-05-2020 at 01:52 AM.

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    The misogynistic attitudes of incel communities is real, and many incels are indeed whiny and entitled.

    Regardless, I'd be shocked that feelings of 'failure' in the eyes of society haven't compounded the problem. When one hasn't been able to meet society's expectations, some (perhaps most) people begin to self-isolate, and some develop the desire to drag others down with them.

    The Trump phenomenon is complicated, but I'm willing to bet that a lot of the displaced Trump supporters feel the same way as these incels. The fact that Trump was such a loser may have made him seem like an even bigger Jesus.

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    i wanna give them a hug :>

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    like 65% of incels arent even incels they're just 16 year olds with edgy humor

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    Many people find themselves on this crossroad, whereupon they are confronted with the conflict between their desire for a breeding mate and their inability to attain that desire in a fair manner. It would seem that most resolve this dissonance by looking inward and improving.
    It is this weakness of character that makes the incel. He externalises his personal inadequacies and shifts the burden unto the world. This then must be predicated on an idea that he has an actual right to mating, a service that others must render for him and which he is owed.
    Essentially, the incel is a failed man. He is a boy that fails to perform to relative success as heterosexual man, or in any case perceives such a failure. He needs to be understood as the inevitable byproduct of a patriarchal society that does not any more cater to his likes.
    Being a failed man on itself is not a bad thing; quite the opposite, it's an opportunity to grow beyond the confines of gender expectations. The crux of the matter is that he projects his perceived inadequacies, blaming women for the slights that he feels. He is selfish.

    The incel is right in his assessment that society does not want him. Nobody needs boys like him.

    While patriarchal society deteriorates, as it should, masculinity is being phased out—there is either the regression into hyper-masculinity or escaping its demand altogether.

    That being said there is a space for empathy, especially at the crossroads.

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    They be desperate and lonely. For some reason craving the woman's approval. I have this friend who is 26 year old and a virgin. He is a male feminist who hates other men and constantly says me and our other friends are sexist for getting sex with "strangers" and for "toying with women's emotions"(which is never my interest, mind you). He is very envious of other men's success too, any time I talk about my music he tries to push me down, and yet, he literally doesn't even try to seek success with his skills or anything, instead he just acts like a SJW in the internet. Yeah, this is a different type of Incel, one that worships women yet he can't even romantically/sexually touch one even if he craves to do so, or if the opportunity presents itself, and that is because he praises them as some sort of super-humans instead of seeing them as for what they are, human beings like the rest. And yes, he sees any other man as competition or a manwhore who is out to "shit on women". Btw. I have a best friend who got the typical Chad look, and this guy hates him for like no fucking apparent reason. Heh.
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    Eh isn't involuntary a state you can't fix? Like being in prison for most of its inhabitants. Being conditioned for instance to criminal life is still considered as a voluntary act when you commit a crime. I mean just eh...
    Then there is MGTOW which is separate from being incel.

    The world needs condcels movement. You can be MGTOW while being incel, volcel or CONDCEL.
    Measuring you right now

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    I didn't have sex until I was 25, but this was entirely by my choice. I felt somewhat afraid of women, not in the sense that they would hurt me, but rather, I really wanted sex but my Victim-ness was telling me that I would owe a lot to any woman who did concede to have sex with me. As in, I would probably have to marry her in return for doing me the enormous favor of having sex with me. And I was ashamed of being a virgin.

    It took a lot of drinking and an LSI Aggressor to get me to have sex. The first time she and I met, in the park at night, she brought some beer and showed me her tits. The next time we met in my apartment, she told me that if I brought her a beer, she'd give me a blowjob. I brought her a Coke instead, because Victims are very wary of being captured. We were having intercourse for many weeks before I allowed myself to have an orgasm. (Yeah, I can do that. It's a result of living in your head.) I gradually came to realize that I didn't have to marry her. That she was having fun and finding out about herself just as I was. That we were actually equals in the relationship.

    After her, I was off to the races. It just took an attitude adjustment for me to get started.

    Before age 25, I never harbored any resentment towards guys who were more successful than I was, or towards women who wouldn't sleep with me. For the former, I figured that they were meeting people who were suitable for them but not for me, and for the latter, well, I was mostly scared of getting trapped into a commitment that I certainly didn't feel ready for yet. But after age 25, when I started having some success, I think I resented the fact that women weren't falling at my feet.

    On one of the last times I was in a bar with my buddies, I was drinking pretty hard (and not especially feeling drunk, just more extroverted and loud and happy), and a table of old broads (I mean, they were almost as old as I was) next to ours noticed how much fun I was having and invited me to join them, and they meant it. They were laughing and arm waving me over. I stood up to head to the men's room and in passing, thanked them but said I was with my buds, and I wished they'd had that attitude when I was twenty-two.
    So that wish indicates to me that I do harbor some resentment from the days when I couldn't get a break, but it's pretty mild. I can't really criticize the women, because they are experiencing now what I experienced then. And it was pretty painful at the time.

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    I can't get over the entitlement of it. I seem to interpret it as feeling entitled to sex. I can't understand how to relate to the term "involuntarily celibate" though perhaps it's just for the dreadfully simple reason that I am not really involuntarily celibate. It's just I feel like I would be perfect for one of these femcels if only I felt entitled to sex. I see it more as I don't like the broader entity that is me and am too ashamed to be with someone else in such an inglorious state. So, you see, it's all about me. I'm too narcissistic to be a femcel, and yet not narcissistic enough to feel entitled to sex.

    This is the problem... to be involuntarily celibate means celibate against your will means celibate because you perceive yourself as an undesirable, but at the same time this implies other people deny you sex (as though you have a right to sex with them). I can understand screaming to the void about that which is existentially unfair, but it seems to boomerang back and hit people as though it's specific individuals denying one the experience of having sex ("I was nice to her but she STILL won't sleep with me!"). To then refer to oneself as "involuntarily celibate" seems a bit melodramatic. It sometimes comes off as people not understanding that there's nothing unfair about someone else not wanting to sleep with them... Although I can also see it as lashing out against gender roles (they want to fit into the favored het masculine gender role and find they cannot yet they have been sold on the role and can't see a way to turn their ugly duckling nature into a swan of sorts).

    And then there is how profoundly useless it is. I'm guilty of having plenty of useless and counterproductive/self-sabotaging attitudes but since I don't have this one in particular I can revel in my enlightenment. Basically even if one is considered ugly physically by the majority of people, that one can end up in a satisfying relationship. It's because everyone has a lot of cards to play, so I guess I see some personal control in this or something... I just can't feel this sense of being "denied" because I can't feel "I deserve" because I don't believe relationships are something one deserves or not (it's not part of a value system).

    Anyway, I can understand it through my other resentments as at the other end of resentment is a sense of entitlement, I just don't feel that way about sex/relationships.

    I could see the "incel" group as growing out of misogyny and into a genuine outcast group with time, and the virtual space will likely just be where those who are fortunate enough go to cope/live unless they are kept involuntarily offline.

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    I hang out with a lot of self-proclaimed incels even though I don't identify as that myself. A lot of them are just lonely people with low self esteem and/or mental illness/personality disorder and they are restless and hang out in communities where a certain mindset and worldview is being spread. Many are just young, inexperienced and insecure too. Mostly they seem to judge their views on all women based on other troubled egirls with mental illness and personality disorder. Those kinds of girls are often best to avoid anyways. They just need to stick their head outta the window more. Sure there are many girls who are whores but there's many guys who are whores too. Being a whore is never good. Society kinda encourages that kind of thing though and society is messed up for sure. I think @End is on to something with lack of virtue. Also technology and internet culture, lack of family values, and increased social individualism. Anyways most incels are nothing like Elliot Rodger or whatever, they just need help and support. Inceldom is often kinda comorbid with other things such as general social isolation, unemployment, poverty, etc as well.

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    Also if everyone just sticked to dating within their league, harsh as it sounds, then we would have very few incels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    I believe that this phenomenon is going to keep getting more pronounced. We need a thread about it.

    * How do you define it? FWIW, there are Femcels in addition to Incels.

    * What do you think are the causes?

    * What are the solutions?
    I haven't thought much about this, so I may make another post when I have.

    Off the top of my head, I've noticed an increasing number of young people, at least in the States, seem to have difficulty socializing, both men and women. Many of them seem scared to speak up and assert themselves, even to each other. And sure, it's natural to an extent for young and inexperienced people to be more cautious, but I really do think that this is happening to a significantly greater extent. I think behind the incel movement is just a growing number people (or at least men) who just don't know how to talk to anyone. If you look at incel forums and see what they talk about, you don't get the impression that they're going to bars and hitting on women; they're at most having occasional awkward run-ins with women, and are convinced that because these go badly, they're not capable of getting women -- when they aren't even trying to begin with.

    If I'm right about this, the cause would be that kids really don't have many social outlets besides video games. In schools, recess time is short and often doesn't exist past elementary school. There's not much opportunity to make many friends unless you're in an extracurricular program of some sort (a major reason why JROTC is so popular, by the way), and even then opportunities are still limited. More importantly though, opportunities outside school have dried up. Even if you live in suburbia, parents don't let their kids wander off by themselves; kids are always, always supervised. Parents also don't interact with their kids; increasingly they just sit their kids in front of a screen and forget about them. And there aren't many communal institutions anymore; however you feel about it, capitalism is destroying organized religion, and social clubs are a thing of the past. Kids are growing up without normal human interaction, and they're affected by its absence.
    Every man is as God made him, ay, and often worse. - Cervantes

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    Quote Originally Posted by barely real View Post
    Also if everyone just sticked to dating within their league, harsh as it sounds, then we would have very few incels.
    in their league...and who defines appropriate leagues?!
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

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    what is this a caste system?
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    in their league...and who defines appropriate leagues?!
    Of course there's subjectivity to that but there's something called "looksmatch", sometimes it's more obvious than other times. I think more self-awareness would be enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barely real View Post
    Of course there's subjectivity to that but there's something called "looksmatch", sometimes it's more obvious than other times. I think more self-awareness would be enough.
    But that makess no sense.

    I've cared for men who were objectively more and others who were objectively less attractive than I am. We wanted to date each other. Why should someone else who think's they're entitled to someone be able to prevent us? !...


    this isn't some evil oligarch matching game where we get paired off by our accidental exteriors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I haven't thought much about this, so I may make another post when I have.

    Off the top of my head, I've noticed an increasing number of young people, at least in the States, seem to have difficulty socializing, both men and women. Many of them seem scared to speak up and assert themselves, even to each other. And sure, it's natural to an extent for young and inexperienced people to be more cautious, but I really do think that this is happening to a significantly greater extent. I think behind the incel movement is just a growing number people (or at least men) who just don't know how to talk to anyone. If you look at incel forums and see what they talk about, you don't get the impression that they're going to bars and hitting on women; they're at most having occasional awkward run-ins with women, and are convinced that because these go badly, they're not capable of getting women -- when they aren't even trying to begin with.

    If I'm right about this, the cause would be that kids really don't have many social outlets besides video games. In schools, recess time is short and often doesn't exist past elementary school. There's not much opportunity to make many friends unless you're in an extracurricular program of some sort (a major reason why JROTC is so popular, by the way), and even then opportunities are still limited. More importantly though, opportunities outside school have dried up. Even if you live in suburbia, parents don't let their kids wander off by themselves; kids are always, always supervised. Parents also don't interact with their kids; increasingly they just sit their kids in front of a screen and forget about them. And there aren't many communal institutions anymore; however you feel about it, capitalism is destroying organized religion, and social clubs are a thing of the past. Kids are growing up without normal human interaction, and they're affected by its absence.
    I agree with all of this.

    As far as I'm concerned, videos games, television, etc. are all fine (even beneficial) if they're used in moderation or as a social activity. There are certain forms of artistic expression that can only be carried out using electronic media. Being a well-adjusted person likely also includes using one or more of them.

    But when they become someone's entire world, there's a drift into self-isolation and bizarre ideation. I surfed an incel forum just now, and there's literally a post that applies incel ideology to discussing the Fermi Paradox. I consider myself a person with strange idiosyncrasies and unusual character flaws that I hide from polite company, but even I'm in awe at the level of creativity these people insert into their neuroses.

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