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Thread: Weak but valued functions

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    Default Weak but valued functions

    How do you guys recognize weak + valued (if there is a way).
    Last edited by peteronfireee; 10-28-2020 at 04:52 PM.

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    I'm not sure I understand your question. Can you explain what you're looking for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilex View Post
    I'm not sure I understand your question. Can you explain what you're looking for?
    For instance, we were analyzing a video, trying to figure out their type, and then SEI type came up along with "weak but valued Ti. Their Ti is their hidden agenda (so weak but still valued) ... Was there something concrete one would look for to recognize a weak + unvalued function vs. a weak + valued function, or is that outside the realm to spot IRL.

    Seems kinda tricky.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    For instance, we were analyzing a video, trying to figure out their type, and then SEI type came up along with "weak but valued Ti. Their Ti is their hidden agenda (so weak but still valued) ... Was there something concrete one would look for to recognize a weak + unvalued function vs. a weak + valued function, or is that outside the realm to spot IRL.

    Seems kinda tricky.
    It is tricky.
    One of the (many) big weaknesses of model A is that when the model suggests an ISFp has Ti... it doesn't make the definition of Ep-Ti vs. Ij-Ti. The two are not at all similar. The only real answer to this conundrum is to say that it's neither. It's ISFp-Ti.
    Hence... the hidden agendas and such are not actually tied to a real person of another type but the ISFp's own mental image of another.
    Now since we're not talking about concious parts of a person's psyche... when we're talking about the hidden agenda of a type...
    we're summing a huge number of people, claiming that they all have a part of themselves that they're not really aware of and then making claims on the collective unconcious mind of an archetypal person group. This is of course bullshit.
    So there's not much that can be said about ISFp-Ti without lying.
    Not that that will stop people.

    If we do try to wade into this muck though...
    On a general level people look in others for their complement... something that will help them with things they can not achieve by themselves.
    ISFp of the Si subtype will look for Ne.
    ISFp of the Fe subtype will look for Ti.
    So when you're looking for way how people show this part of themselves...
    you're trying to observe what role the person tries to give to another person or what parts of themselves they call weak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilex View Post
    It is tricky.
    One of the (many) big weaknesses of model A is that when the model suggests an ISFp has Ti... it doesn't make the definition of Ep-Ti vs. Ij-Ti. The two are not at all similar. The only real answer to this conundrum is to say that it's neither. It's ISFp-Ti.
    Hence... the hidden agendas and such are not actually tied to a real person of another type but the ISFp's own mental image of another.
    Now since we're not talking about concious parts of a person's psyche... when we're talking about the hidden agenda of a type...
    we're summing a huge number of people, claiming that they all have a part of themselves that they're not really aware of and then making claims on the collective unconcious mind of an archetypal person group. This is of course bullshit.
    So there's not much that can be said about ISFp-Ti without lying.
    Not that that will stop people.

    If we do try to wade into this muck though...
    On a general level people look in others for their complement... something that will help them with things they can not achieve by themselves.
    ISFp of the Si subtype will look for Ne.
    ISFp of the Fe subtype will look for Ti.
    So when you're looking for way how people show this part of themselves...
    you're trying to observe what role the person tries to give to another person or what parts of themselves they call weak
    .
    subtype was perhaps related to Fe, therefore looking for Ti to complement, therefore weak but valued Ti, gotcha

    we're summing a huge number of people, claiming that they all have a part of themselves that they're [not really aware of and then making claims on the collective unconcious mind of an archetypal person group. This is of course bullshit.
    yeah, i can definitely see whats happening on the conscious level but at a deeper level? a little bit trickier
    Last edited by peteronfireee; 09-01-2020 at 08:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    For instance, we were analyzing a video, trying to figure out their type, and then SEI type came up along with "weak but valued Ti. Their Ti is their hidden agenda (so weak but still valued) ... Was there something concrete one would look for to recognize a weak + unvalued function vs. a weak + valued function, or is that outside the realm to spot IRL.

    Seems kinda tricky.
    Yes, e.g. the Ti-mobilizing function of SEIs will manifest as them often silly theoretical perspectives devoid of factual accuracy (=Te-PoLR), but all 'n' all quite harmless. Such is the nature of everyone's Mobilizing function.

    Check out e.g.: https://mavericksocionics.blogspot.c...-function.html

    A similar thing is the Suggestive function. The suggestive function mainly manifest itself as a total absence in the individual, while at the same it might be obvious to onlookers that the person could benefit from it. E.g. hyperactive ILEs and IEEs that are in need of relaxation (Si), who without Si are constantly doing things without actually accomplishing anything.

    I must add, however, that it is quite impossible to spot weak but valued functions from one single video. As with any information element, observation over a period of time, and in differing situations, is required to be able to recognize a pattern.
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    E.g. hyperactive ILEs and IEEs that are in need of relaxation (Si), who without Si are constantly doing things without actually accomplishing anything.
    that's really interesting

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post

    I must add, however, that it is quite impossible to spot weak but valued functions from one single video. As with any information element, observation over a period of time, and in differing situations, is required to be able to recognize a pattern.
    that's what i was thinking... thx for the insight and link

    lol at how expat put it: pathetic hidden agenda:

    "but it's painfully obvious to others that you are above all reassuring yourself and not doing a good job at it - and by doing that, you end up behaving in a pathetic way."
    so when i try to use Ni i end up looking pathetic, better not use it

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    From expat on pathetic HA (2007):


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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    From expat on pathetic HA (2007):

    The Ti description in that list is kind of just flat out not good.
    Understandable because of the writer's own type.
    My experience of ISFps and INFps is that when they really get a bee in their bonnet about a thing...
    They collect random weird tidbits of info around a subject matter and pose them to you pointedly in a way that kind of requires an explanation. They may misquote publications that are in no way related to the subject matter, repeat questions that they've gotten an answer for and sometimes even flat out say that they just can't accept an explanation. But ... if anything they demand conversation about the subject matter.
    Unshakeable doesn't really describe the state of mind, it's more like haphazardly unashamedly totally wobblyshaky in a demandingly desperate way. Which admittedly is not the best use of the Queen's language ever.

    So anyway. The real gist of all of these is that these things are complements of creative functions.
    We always make our greatest accomplishments with our creative functions. So we're invested in these things. And we can't as easily abandon these things as things related to our accepting functions. Our behaviour is more intensive, more pointed when dealing with these issues. Because this is an area where we're at our best, it's difficult to accept criticism in this region. So knowing our weakness, what complements us, we try to overcompensate by showing strength in the complementary area as well... which just ends up showcasing our weakness. At the same time though, by including the desired attribute, we're showing respect to people who are better at the subject matter than we are.
    This hidden agenda thing though, it's usually not the real point of the behaviour though. It's usually something at the background. But if one isn't aware of the phenomenon one may be confused by people displaying behaviour which is supposedly related to something that they should be lacking.

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    value - what is liked/prefered
    strenght - what is done good/better

    it can be felt intuitively, including by IR effects with you (if you understand correctly own type). or identified by the behavior in case you know those people not badly

    also, you may identify by strong valued functions what should be easier as people express them more. by other types traits as dichotomies to limit the range of possible types
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilex View Post

    ..So anyway. The real gist of all of these is that these things are complements of creative functions...

    ....overcompensate by showing strength in the complementary area as well... which just ends up showcasing our weakness. At the same time though, by including the desired attribute, we're showing respect to people who are better at the subject matter than we are.
    yeah i like that illustration of overcompensating for ur weakness. it's like the stereotypical example of the dude that has a small ding-dong but has a giant truck (trying to be cool) and others look at him and its like dude ur not that cool lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    value - what is liked/prefered
    strenght - what is done good/better

    it can be felt intuitively, including by IR effects with you (if you understand correctly own type). or identified by the behavior in case you know those people not badly

    also, you may identify by strong valued functions what should be easier as people express them more. by other types traits as dichotomies to limit the range of possible types
    whats your HA and how does it feel to u? for me:

    --priding myself at being on time to places but then being late all the time
    --over/underestimating how long somethings gonna take ... then end up finishing way early or finishing way too late
    --writing 100000 notes/reminders to myself
    --i have a doomsday scenario plan written out, just incase zombies attack

    general theme: being over-prepared for anything lol to compensate for the unknown/in case i forget something

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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    whats your HA and how does it feel to u?
    For LSE it's Ne. Which may be expressed as new Ne ideas among friendly environments. An example of Ni in LSI is remembering of past events with friends.
    The main are value and a strenght, while other is lesser clear to notice and is more doubtful theory.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    yeah i like that illustration of overcompensating for ur weakness. it's like the stereotypical example of the dude that has a small ding-dong but has a giant truck (trying to be cool) and others look at him and its like dude ur not that cool lol.
    but which types do that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    so when i try to use Ni i end up looking pathetic, better not use it
    The question is: how to unlearn/overcome neurotic inclinations?
    ďI have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.Ē --- Pippi Longstocking

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    I think someone's attitude towards topics heavy in that function could maybe give hints if they value it or not. Like a PoLR Ti is gonna be fed up with and just straight up not care about anything Ti, stereotypically speaking like doing math in your head or using a word accurately. While valued but low Ti might fear fumbling in that area but appreciates help and kinda pokes fun at themselves for not being good at that. I've seen ESE's admit they are dumb and laugh. PoLR isn't gonna poke much fun at themselves about the weak function because it hurts 2 much, that probably comes if your know socionics.

    Like if a Ti PoLR person uses a word incorrectly they might just say "WHO CARES you know what I mean!"
    While a weak Ti valuer might say " Oh, I'm dumb, I used the wrong word." < They see(value) the importance of using words correctly.
    Ti PoLR isn't gonna care about semantics at all while weak Ti valuer feels clumsy but want's to be correct.
    Also I think people try to use their mobilizing function to overcompensate for the PoLR. It's almost like they are trying to say to themselves "Look I'm good at a T function." it's but it's just not Ti.

    I remember an IEE who was like "Hey if you ever get AIDS you can have all the sex you want with hookers unprotected and never worry." and 2 Ti valuers jumped on him and said "That's MURDER" and the IEE guy's face was beet red lol. That PoLR embarassment. One of those same Ti valuers would explain some simple thing to an ESE and the ESE was like "Man that's why I like you guys, you guys are smart!" like he saw no embarrassment in joking that he saw himself as not very bright.

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    Weak but Valued functions- you won't make Te/Ti rules and laws against it's use and you will also encourage its use with Fe/Fi.

    A subtle encouragement is still an encouragement. You might have to be looking harder though.

    Because it's weak in themselves, but they still value it - you have to look more into their relationships they have w/ other people to find it, what they are subtly egging on in others, what they are responding to vs what they "should" be responding to. And it's one dimensional and weak- so they won't be really using it in a logical/objective/worldly way much, so you also have to take the time to get to know them and learn their feelings. It's complicated, because obviously- there is only so many people on earth that we want to get to know like that.

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    I think the super id functions (along with the valued ego functions) are verbal. In other words people would tend to easily and naturally talk about them directly with related vocabulary.

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...lation-Model-A

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    There's a conpensatory quality to it. For example, I can engage Ti decently (not efficiently). I become extra self-conscious about whether or not I am using the right words to convey my message accurately and succinctly. My EIE - Fe friend, on the other hand, sometimes mashes words together, misuses "big words", and is excessively verbose. It can take awhile to understand the essence of what he's trying to say.

    I also can usually tell when people are engaging in logical fallacies but it takes some effort to pinpoint exactly what and how.

    Se makes me impatient and I will rush to fix things. Sometimes, I will randomly notice things out of the ordinary/out of place.
    Last edited by Consilience; 09-05-2020 at 05:00 PM.

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    There really isnít a concrete way to categorize how weak + valued functions manifest. Itís determined based on the context of the situation and how certain behaviors come out in relation to the strong, bold functions (base and demo).

    An example I can give is a few of my SEE friends recently have asked me about investments. About 1 or 2 months ago, I needed some money for cushion so I sold my Facebook stocks that I bought when they first went public. It was sold at an extremely high price which will give me cushion for some time so I can live off it. The SEEs think Iím some sort genius but I know how to manage money even in my sleep. They feel like they should start investing in stuff now when theyíre their 40s. Iím not an investment advisor or anything like that, but Iíve been playing stock market via my parents since I was 14. My parents are Delta STs. I know what to look for and Iím also a bit risky, so I pick some stocks that are blue chip and some Iíll really throw it all in. My SEE friends do truly value Te but they donít know how to approach it, and when they do, itís from an emotionally safe place and even then, they still get nervous. Iíve given them very small baby steps instructions on investment, some books recommendations for investing, even told them some of the stuff I invest in, and even though they like me and trust what I say, theyíre still hesitant to actually invest despite saying for years that they want to and ďnow is the time to do it!Ē But they still donít do it lol Iím not sure itís because my Te is from the Id and it comes out like Iím making fun of Te (I do think itís easy) that doesnít sit well with Te mob or what. But they also donít like Te coming from LSE and SLI either.

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    The mobilizing function tends to be quite "loud" or present. But the suggestive function I would say is more recognized by the lack of it, if anything. What they share is something like neuroticism or sensitivity, and sometimes stubbornness.

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    Basically, weak and strong functions are two sides of the same coin. Any changes to one, effects the other. So somebody with a lot of Fe is influenced Ti, even though they don't use Ti that much.
    So to answer your question, you can't tell, because it's all the same phenomenon. Because when somebody uses id functions, the superego becomes unconscious.

    It's another reason I think the type clubs (NT, NF, ST, SF) and temperaments (Ej, Ij, Ip, Ep) are more meaningful than types themselves.
    What I mean is, take an ILE for example; psychically they are dominated by Ne, which makes transitioning to leading Ni harder than leading Te, so you could come up with a bunch of types they might appear as, starting from what's more natural to less natural -> ILE, LIE (demonstrative), LII(creative), ILI(observing, hardest to do because Ne is theoretically their strongest focus). All have weak sensing and ethics, which makes the transition more natural than an ILE acting like an IEE for example. edit: though actually, since observing types are furthest away, benefit pairs can be pretty similar. So ILE could be like EIE too, where EIE has furthest psychic link to Fi from all the NFs.
    But there's a caveat, people can be completely one-sided, either strong extroverts or introverts and then that wouldn't apply, since they wouldn't have a strong creative function; they would just be defined by their leading function and not really one of the 16 types to begin with. Somebody like that, take Ne leading for example, wouldn't have a strong focus on ethics or logic because both would essentially be absent. But they might have an easier time with extroverted rationality and find certain types more natural -> Ne, ILE/IEE, LIE/EIE, LSE/ESE

    I think I'm not sure what we're talking about anymore now, but maybe that helps.
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    Mobilizing is what it says. Like ILE's need emotional shakedowns and LIE's need public spankings (actually media is full of LIE's who are begging to have disapproval and public execution because they have been naughty).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homicidal Maniac 007 View Post
    Mobilizing is what it says. Like ILE's need emotional shakedowns and LIE's need public spankings (actually media is full of LIE's who are begging to have disapproval and public execution because they have been naughty).
    I've noticed LIEs do try very hard to come off as “naughty” and overly sexual and overly exaggerate how they’re sooo degenerate. It’s like Se mob views Se is nothing but sex, drugs, and rock n’ roll. Mob functions comes out disastrous but funny because it’s bold about something it’s super bad at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SnatchYourWeave View Post
    I've noticed LIEs do try very hard to come off as “naughty” and overly sexual and overly exaggerate how they’re sooo degenerate. It’s like Se mob views Se is nothing but sex, drugs, and rock n’ roll. Mob functions comes out disastrous but funny because it’s bold about something it’s super bad at.
    Hidden Agendas are often cringe. We want to be good at it, we think we are good at it, but we're not good at it.

    It's a bit like our PoLR's, except with PoLR's, we want to be good at it, but we think we aren't good at it and we really are not good at it.

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    If I emphasize my degeneracy through my tastes and choice of words + pretend to be intellectually pretentious even though I'm dumb as fuck, what would that be?

    I feel pretty unconcerned with Si or I just have weird preferences on it
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    I am a great fan of the HA and don't tend to see its use as over-compensating for weakness. I have Ti HA, and Ti is then my main logic (Te is not going to serve me so well). I need logic, therefore I need to use Ti even if that is going to open me up to PoLR hits, which are slightly painful but not eternally devastating when resulting from my using Ti without having my information/facts down. I'm also interested in stretching out the PoLR more in some cases (like in debating) because it really is a weakness and I don't really want to be overwhelmingly constricted by pain over that weakness. It doesn't mean I'm not afraid however.

    I tend to see the HA as something that can grow. This doesn't mean imo that one will somehow change type or that the HA will grow into a strong function - it can't due to its position in the psyche which limits the way in which it can be used (Fe creative would not allow Ti HA to overcome it in strength; Fe is too important). But I think that when people are older and have grown into their HAs more, it may be difficult to tell that the HA is actually a weak function. It would reveal itself in being used less creatively and with less versatility than a creative fct, however.

    I really don't believe in avoiding the HA out of fear of it appearing pathetic or of being pathetic (really, if I have weak logic, it will be revealed as weak eventually regardless of what I do with the HA). If Ti is the only logic I have a handle on somewhat, I'm going to use it because I need it and it's also an area of interest.

    Te meanwhile I see as something that comes and goes haphazardly and I don't feel I have much of a handle on it at all... So really Ti is needed to even manage that problem. (Also note that I'm only really considering Te in how it relates to Ti for me... while missing the broader range of what Te does... PoLR hits outside the scope of my use of Ti will be much more painful, which I suppose is another point for why using Ti HA is necessary.)

    Anyway, regarding weak valued vs. unvalued... the weak valued ones will reveal themselves by being sought from situations and other people, especially the suggestive as I maintain people try to fill in the HA for themselves more since the HA is 2D and they have some control over it. The weak unvalued functions will put more of a strain on a person (role function) or be painful and blind (PoLR). I've read the PoLR can also show in just being the one weak IE that the person just doesn't care about period and ignores. But that still means it's painful and that the way the person is dealing with it is by saying "I don't have to deal with it, I don't care about it, so eff it."
    Last edited by inumbra; 10-28-2020 at 06:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    I am a great fan of the HA and don't tend to see its use as over-compensating for weakness.
    Te meanwhile I see as something that comes and goes haphazardly and I don't feel I have much of a handle on it at all... So really Ti is needed to even manage that problem. (Also note that I'm only really considering Te in how it relates to Ti for me... while missing the broader range of what Te does... PoLR hits outside the scope of my use of Ti will be much more painful, which I suppose is another point for why using Ti HA is necessary.)
    So then from what you said, the HA does overcompensate/try to cover up for deficiency in PoLR since instead of using the Te that is called for in the moment, you understand it in terms of Ti and basically use Ti instead

    Also, could you explain why you say that using Ti opens one up to Te hits?

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    an octave lower inumbra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    So then from what you said, the HA does overcompensate/try to cover up for deficiency in PoLR since instead of using the Te that is called for in the moment, you understand it in terms of Ti and basically use Ti instead
    perhaps fair enough... although over-compensate vs. compensate. and there's the matter that the HA is necessary imo regardless.

    Also, could you explain why you say that using Ti opens one up to Te hits?
    for instance if one debates something with another person regarding the logic of it on incomplete information, they are open for having what they are missing pointed out to them, which will then interfere with the way they were arranging the logic of the matter and they will be caught in their "bad logic." if they had avoided using the Ti HA entirely, they'd not be in that situation in which they can be confronted by their absence of Te and helplessness wrt the PoLR. any time they use Ti, it opens them up to this problem because "good logic" involves both Ti and Te (one of the two isn't missed).

    anyway, i'm not trying to say one can't over-compensate or that i can't or that the HA doesn't look "pathetic" at times, just that i have a very positive view of the HA and its usage (which really the psyche generally would i would think).

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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    perhaps fair enough... although over-compensate vs. compensate. and there's the matter that the HA is necessary imo regardless.

    for instance if one debates something with another person regarding the logic of it on incomplete information, they are open for having what they are missing pointed out to them, which will then interfere with the way they were arranging the logic of the matter and they will be caught in their "bad logic." if they had avoided using the Ti HA entirely, they'd not be in that situation in which they can be confronted by their absence of Te and helplessness wrt the PoLR. any time they use Ti, it opens them up to this problem because "good logic" involves both Ti and Te (one of the two isn't missed).
    never looked at it that way before!

    and yes, I agree that the HA and by extension the 2D IE are better than most people make them out to be

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