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Thread: Weak but valued functions

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    Default Weak but valued functions

    How do you guys recognize weak + valued (if there is a way). This question was inspired by trying to type someone who was weak in ti and apparently their ti was still "valued"

    Are there are clues/patterns to spot this? @Smilex and @FreelancePoliceman (or anyone) I need ur thoughts too lol
    Last edited by fireee; 09-01-2020 at 05:40 PM.
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    I'm not sure I understand your question. Can you explain what you're looking for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilex View Post
    I'm not sure I understand your question. Can you explain what you're looking for?
    For instance, we were analyzing a video, trying to figure out their type, and then SEI type came up along with "weak but valued Ti. Their Ti is their hidden agenda (so weak but still valued) ... Was there something concrete one would look for to recognize a weak + unvalued function vs. a weak + valued function, or is that outside the realm to spot IRL.

    Seems kinda tricky.
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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    For instance, we were analyzing a video, trying to figure out their type, and then SEI type came up along with "weak but valued Ti. Their Ti is their hidden agenda (so weak but still valued) ... Was there something concrete one would look for to recognize a weak + unvalued function vs. a weak + valued function, or is that outside the realm to spot IRL.

    Seems kinda tricky.
    It is tricky.
    One of the (many) big weaknesses of model A is that when the model suggests an ISFp has Ti... it doesn't make the definition of Ep-Ti vs. Ij-Ti. The two are not at all similar. The only real answer to this conundrum is to say that it's neither. It's ISFp-Ti.
    Hence... the hidden agendas and such are not actually tied to a real person of another type but the ISFp's own mental image of another.
    Now since we're not talking about concious parts of a person's psyche... when we're talking about the hidden agenda of a type...
    we're summing a huge number of people, claiming that they all have a part of themselves that they're not really aware of and then making claims on the collective unconcious mind of an archetypal person group. This is of course bullshit.
    So there's not much that can be said about ISFp-Ti without lying.
    Not that that will stop people.

    If we do try to wade into this muck though...
    On a general level people look in others for their complement... something that will help them with things they can not achieve by themselves.
    ISFp of the Si subtype will look for Ne.
    ISFp of the Fe subtype will look for Ti.
    So when you're looking for way how people show this part of themselves...
    you're trying to observe what role the person tries to give to another person or what parts of themselves they call weak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilex View Post
    It is tricky.
    One of the (many) big weaknesses of model A is that when the model suggests an ISFp has Ti... it doesn't make the definition of Ep-Ti vs. Ij-Ti. The two are not at all similar. The only real answer to this conundrum is to say that it's neither. It's ISFp-Ti.
    Hence... the hidden agendas and such are not actually tied to a real person of another type but the ISFp's own mental image of another.
    Now since we're not talking about concious parts of a person's psyche... when we're talking about the hidden agenda of a type...
    we're summing a huge number of people, claiming that they all have a part of themselves that they're not really aware of and then making claims on the collective unconcious mind of an archetypal person group. This is of course bullshit.
    So there's not much that can be said about ISFp-Ti without lying.
    Not that that will stop people.

    If we do try to wade into this muck though...
    On a general level people look in others for their complement... something that will help them with things they can not achieve by themselves.
    ISFp of the Si subtype will look for Ne.
    ISFp of the Fe subtype will look for Ti.
    So when you're looking for way how people show this part of themselves...
    you're trying to observe what role the person tries to give to another person or what parts of themselves they call weak
    .
    subtype was perhaps related to Fe, therefore looking for Ti to complement, therefore weak but valued Ti, gotcha

    we're summing a huge number of people, claiming that they all have a part of themselves that they're [not really aware of and then making claims on the collective unconcious mind of an archetypal person group. This is of course bullshit.
    yeah, i can definitely see whats happening on the conscious level but at a deeper level? a little bit trickier
    Last edited by fireee; 09-01-2020 at 07:14 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    For instance, we were analyzing a video, trying to figure out their type, and then SEI type came up along with "weak but valued Ti. Their Ti is their hidden agenda (so weak but still valued) ... Was there something concrete one would look for to recognize a weak + unvalued function vs. a weak + valued function, or is that outside the realm to spot IRL.

    Seems kinda tricky.
    Yes, e.g. the Ti-mobilizing function of SEIs will manifest as them often silly theoretical perspectives devoid of factual accuracy (=Te-PoLR), but all 'n' all quite harmless. Such is the nature of everyone's Mobilizing function.

    Check out e.g.: https://mavericksocionics.blogspot.c...-function.html

    A similar thing is the Suggestive function. The suggestive function mainly manifest itself as a total absence in the individual, while at the same it might be obvious to onlookers that the person could benefit from it. E.g. hyperactive ILEs and IEEs that are in need of relaxation (Si), who without Si are constantly doing things without actually accomplishing anything.

    I must add, however, that it is quite impossible to spot weak but valued functions from one single video. As with any information element, observation over a period of time, and in differing situations, is required to be able to recognize a pattern.
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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    E.g. hyperactive ILEs and IEEs that are in need of relaxation (Si), who without Si are constantly doing things without actually accomplishing anything.
    that's really interesting

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post

    I must add, however, that it is quite impossible to spot weak but valued functions from one single video. As with any information element, observation over a period of time, and in differing situations, is required to be able to recognize a pattern.
    that's what i was thinking... thx for the insight and link

    lol at how expat put it: pathetic hidden agenda:

    "but it's painfully obvious to others that you are above all reassuring yourself and not doing a good job at it - and by doing that, you end up behaving in a pathetic way."
    so when i try to use Ni i end up looking pathetic, better not use it
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    From expat on pathetic HA (2007):

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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    From expat on pathetic HA (2007):

    The Ti description in that list is kind of just flat out not good.
    Understandable because of the writer's own type.
    My experience of ISFps and INFps is that when they really get a bee in their bonnet about a thing...
    They collect random weird tidbits of info around a subject matter and pose them to you pointedly in a way that kind of requires an explanation. They may misquote publications that are in no way related to the subject matter, repeat questions that they've gotten an answer for and sometimes even flat out say that they just can't accept an explanation. But ... if anything they demand conversation about the subject matter.
    Unshakeable doesn't really describe the state of mind, it's more like haphazardly unashamedly totally wobblyshaky in a demandingly desperate way. Which admittedly is not the best use of the Queen's language ever.

    So anyway. The real gist of all of these is that these things are complements of creative functions.
    We always make our greatest accomplishments with our creative functions. So we're invested in these things. And we can't as easily abandon these things as things related to our accepting functions. Our behaviour is more intensive, more pointed when dealing with these issues. Because this is an area where we're at our best, it's difficult to accept criticism in this region. So knowing our weakness, what complements us, we try to overcompensate by showing strength in the complementary area as well... which just ends up showcasing our weakness. At the same time though, by including the desired attribute, we're showing respect to people who are better at the subject matter than we are.
    This hidden agenda thing though, it's usually not the real point of the behaviour though. It's usually something at the background. But if one isn't aware of the phenomenon one may be confused by people displaying behaviour which is supposedly related to something that they should be lacking.

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    value - what is liked/prefered
    strenght - what is done good/better

    it can be felt intuitively, including by IR effects with you (if you understand correctly own type). or identified by the behavior in case you know those people not badly

    also, you may identify by strong valued functions what should be easier as people express them more. by other types traits as dichotomies to limit the range of possible types
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilex View Post

    ..So anyway. The real gist of all of these is that these things are complements of creative functions...

    ....overcompensate by showing strength in the complementary area as well... which just ends up showcasing our weakness. At the same time though, by including the desired attribute, we're showing respect to people who are better at the subject matter than we are.
    yeah i like that illustration of overcompensating for ur weakness. it's like the stereotypical example of the dude that has a small ding-dong but has a giant truck (trying to be cool) and others look at him and its like dude ur not that cool lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    value - what is liked/prefered
    strenght - what is done good/better

    it can be felt intuitively, including by IR effects with you (if you understand correctly own type). or identified by the behavior in case you know those people not badly

    also, you may identify by strong valued functions what should be easier as people express them more. by other types traits as dichotomies to limit the range of possible types
    whats your HA and how does it feel to u? for me:

    --priding myself at being on time to places but then being late all the time
    --over/underestimating how long somethings gonna take ... then end up finishing way early or finishing way too late
    --writing 100000 notes/reminders to myself
    --i have a doomsday scenario plan written out, just incase zombies attack

    general theme: being over-prepared for anything lol to compensate for the unknown/in case i forget something
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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    whats your HA and how does it feel to u?
    For LSE it's Ne. Which may be expressed as new Ne ideas among friendly environments. An example of Ni in LSI is remembering of past events with friends.
    The main are value and a strenght, while other is lesser clear to notice and is more doubtful theory.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    yeah i like that illustration of overcompensating for ur weakness. it's like the stereotypical example of the dude that has a small ding-dong but has a giant truck (trying to be cool) and others look at him and its like dude ur not that cool lol.
    but which types do that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    so when i try to use Ni i end up looking pathetic, better not use it
    The question is: how to unlearn/overcome neurotic inclinations?
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    I think someone's attitude towards topics heavy in that function could maybe give hints if they value it or not. Like a PoLR Ti is gonna be fed up with and just straight up not care about anything Ti, stereotypically speaking like doing math in your head or using a word accurately. While valued but low Ti might fear fumbling in that area but appreciates help and kinda pokes fun at themselves for not being good at that. I've seen ESE's admit they are dumb and laugh. PoLR isn't gonna poke much fun at themselves about the weak function because it hurts 2 much, that probably comes if your know socionics.

    Like if a Ti PoLR person uses a word incorrectly they might just say "WHO CARES you know what I mean!"
    While a weak Ti valuer might say " Oh, I'm dumb, I used the wrong word." < They see(value) the importance of using words correctly.
    Ti PoLR isn't gonna care about semantics at all while weak Ti valuer feels clumsy but want's to be correct.
    Also I think people try to use their mobilizing function to overcompensate for the PoLR. It's almost like they are trying to say to themselves "Look I'm good at a T function." it's but it's just not Ti.

    I remember an IEE who was like "Hey if you ever get AIDS you can have all the sex you want with hookers unprotected and never worry." and 2 Ti valuers jumped on him and said "That's MURDER" and the IEE guy's face was beet red lol. That PoLR embarassment. One of those same Ti valuers would explain some simple thing to an ESE and the ESE was like "Man that's why I like you guys, you guys are smart!" like he saw no embarrassment in joking that he saw himself as not very bright.

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    Weak but Valued functions- you won't make Te/Ti rules and laws against it's use and you will also encourage its use with Fe/Fi.

    A subtle encouragement is still an encouragement. You might have to be looking harder though.

    Because it's weak in themselves, but they still value it - you have to look more into their relationships they have w/ other people to find it, what they are subtly egging on in others, what they are responding to vs what they "should" be responding to. And it's one dimensional and weak- so they won't be really using it in a logical/objective/worldly way much, so you also have to take the time to get to know them and learn their feelings. It's complicated, because obviously- there is only so many people on earth that we want to get to know like that.

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    I think the super id functions (along with the valued ego functions) are verbal. In other words people would tend to easily and naturally talk about them directly with related vocabulary.

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...lation-Model-A

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    There's a conpensatory quality to it. For example, I can engage Ti decently (not efficiently). I become extra self-conscious about whether or not I am using the right words to convey my message accurately and succinctly. My EIE - Fe friend, on the other hand, sometimes mashes words together, misuses "big words", and is excessively verbose. It can take awhile to understand the essence of what he's trying to say.

    I also can usually tell when people are engaging in logical fallacies but it takes some effort to pinpoint exactly what and how.

    Se makes me impatient and I will rush to fix things. Sometimes, I will randomly notice things out of the ordinary/out of place.
    Last edited by Stance; 09-05-2020 at 04:00 PM.

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