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Thread: LII so needy for Fe / LII-IEI benefaction

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    Unhappy LII so needy for Fe / LII-IEI benefaction

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    Last edited by chocolatte; 02-02-2021 at 09:04 PM.

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    Interesting post and pretty much how I imagined that dynamic works. All I can say is that while LII may make fun of their duals they actually do value them. It's just that the energy and bossiness of ESE can become too much.
    And yeah, benefit is one of the shittier relations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    Note: semi venting

    I know a handful of LIIs and there seem to be a subset of them that are simply so.. needy, so desperate for any sort of Fe. Ime they are male and Ti-subs.
    One of them is a legitimate social outcast and I disregarded everyone's warnings and genuinely tried to get to know him, see for myself.
    Oh god- he has a sense of humor that is so.. creepy, and he's creepy, and I can't even look him in the eye anymore because I can't stand him so much.

    ...

    PS: to all the LIIs who shit on or downplay their duals, because ESEs aren't very popular on here.. every single LII I've spoken to, from the most blatant Fe-sluts to the least, the moment you talk to some Fe you always brighten up, perk up like a little hamster when they hear an exciting noise. Sometimes it's more obvious, while other times it's merely a slight opening up of the expression, a small smile creeping onto your visage. Now, I am simply some Fe blocked with Ni, so imagine what good some Fe with Si would do for you. You may think they're all without exception shallow and dumb, but you are no better in the SF realm of things.
    Your observations are 100% spot on... especially "even just a small smile in your visage" lol

    For LII/LSI its almost like life is so... sterile dark and cold. Fe paints colors for them, brings things to life. Yea I fish for reactions all the time so i can totally relate to ur brother, that makes a big difference psychologically.

    My brother on the otherhand, who is IEI, "pushes me" to do things as soon as he proposes them... Call it pushy? Probably Se-seeking? Whatever it is it drives me crazy because our life rhythms are so different im like "bro in a sec in a sec bro"

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    @chocolatte, I had a relationship similar to this with an SEI. I ended up breaking it off for various reasons, but this was honestly uncomfortable to read.

    And the problem is, everytime he talks to me I see him watching me, waiting hopefully for my Fe response, and what am I supposed to do? Sure I can give it, but at the end of the day a Fe creative gets sick of it and will start getting irritated. Or I don't give it and he gets disappointed and then I feel bad because I feel like I was mean. The thing is- I can't just do 50% Fe, if you know what I mean, those freaking LIIs will take any modicum of a Fe response as a signal to keep going, and at that point I just want him to stop, so what I'm forced to do is give the most 0% response. I'm talking no expression change at all, a soft-voiced disinterested "yeah", maybe not even looking at him as I respond. And then he'll look away and then hesitantly glance back at me, wondering what he must've done wrong to annoy his big sister, wondering why she is so disinterested all of a sudden, why he isn't good enough- I must feel so unpredictable and hot and cold towards him, one moment I'm warm and cheerful, the next he doesn't even seem to exist based on how I treat him (because even though I'll force myself to keep it up, at some point I just can't anymore and seemingly out of the blue I shut off) I don't enjoy doing this option either!!
    This part in particular hit close to home. I often felt like my SEI didn't like me much, since she would often suddenly seem to become cold in the way you described. It felt like I didn't know how to make her happy, and that she didn't enjoy being around me. The issue only seemed to compound if she was feeling badly: I would try to lighten her mood by provoking her Fe (which if you buy into the idea that people are subconsciously oriented toward their duals, would make sense: ESEs' dark moods aren't typically long-lasting, and if you can get them thinking about other things, they usually become happy again), and this inevitably seemed to make her feel worse. It really just felt like everything I did was wrong -- I could either try to be playful, and receive a stony response, or I could not, and she would complain that I seemed distant or angry with her.

    Advice is difficult to give, because I'm not sure how mature your brother is, or if what I think would be applicable to me would be applicable to him, even though we share the same type. One thought I have is that LIIs speak Ti in addition to Fe. If you're able to lay out how you feel, and how you'd like your relationship to be in the future, he might be receptive. The main problem is that, to be honest, if you're IEI, there's a good chance you won't be able to do this very well, and it might end up hurting him worse. A problem for me and the SEI was that the SEI didn't seem like she knew what she wanted, or if she did, she couldn't articulate it.

    Another thought I have is to engage him with Ni. I'd imagine the problem isn't so much that you've turned off the Fe-faucet, per se, but that when you're tired and trying to deflect his requests for Fe, all he perceives is that you're tired of him. He's a human, not a dog slobbering over Fe like a bone (even if it can seem like it at times), and we all have the ability to adapt and to accommodate people who aren't our duals -- make him do it! If you can still talk with him by this point without providing Fe, you could try switching to "Ni mode", if it's something possible to do consciously (I dunno how IEIs work...). Close your eyes, and talk coldly and passionately about dreams or astrology or literature or whatever IEIs are into these days (). He should either pick up on the change and continue the conversation on your terms, or get bored eventually and leave, in which case he won't feel so badly.

    I hope this helps at all. Feel free to ask me anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    Even for LII it becomes too much, or for other people it does?
    Yeah.. for some reason before i thought benefit was one of the better ones.. I do think there's a large range within this ITR though.




    I see..
    I realized one of my friends is an ESE-Fe so I want to find an organic way to get them to meet..
    That's funny, I don't think I do that but maybe I'm just not aware. I need other people to push me lol. I don't have much experience with IEI LSI activity though but i wish i did. I was getting to know one but she abruptly moved very far.
    it was almost as if he was pushing me to push him to do something to get things going, so he was still trying to bully me to feed him some Se lol. That Se thirst.

    Activity is probably the easiest relation to start by far. I know quite a few IEIs, and im starting to see patterns; its like the quiet nice person studying at the library but then u find out theyre kinda freaky later jk (or am i?)

    With every single one , pretty positive interactions for the most part, i always end up laughing the hardest with them for some reason.

    As far as LSI, ive personally known just one (and they were female, which is more rare) but she ended up blocking me on social media forever bc of my beliefs. Oh well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    SxEs supposedly like us Ni people but I've always been confused about how exactly they perceive our Ni within us.
    There is of course more to the interaction of IEs, and this is related to how duality can seem abusive at times to outsiders: SLEs occupy space, Ni-leads live in a bit away from the physical, so the former can occupy away and with little resistance from the other side. Good IR are based on organicity, after all. There’s higher probability of SLEs clashing with SEIs in that regard, as they’d be more prone to resent their expansion if it has a toll on their Si comfort (prolonged exposure to this can make some SEIs very critical of power and unearned rights within a group, for example).
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    Even for LII it becomes too much, or for other people it does?
    Yeah.. for some reason before i thought benefit was one of the better ones.. I do think there's a large range within this ITR though.
    It seems to sometimes become too much for the LII which then makes the ESE worry that their dual doesn't actually like them. Usually those issues seem to resolve on their own, it's still duality but not one of the easiest.

    My experience with ESE is that the ITR is very positive as long as it doesn't get too close / is sporadic. In a close relation they start to behave too bossily and I don't have the patience to always try dispelling it with Ti explanations instead of just being blunt.
    The Ti "dumping of understanding" and generating structural thoughts is what they crave but it's less conscious compared to how Fe creatives ask for it.
    For Fe creatives it's a treat or an entertaining show that they explicitly request and then suitably display appreciation for, in case of Fe leads they expect you to simply provide it constantly without prodding.

    One of the issues in Benefit is that you realize you're providing them with a service but they don't seem suitably thankful for it, and the "services" they provide in return by being themselves are either bland (their creative) or go over the top (overwhelming the HA with their base).
    Also your base function is something they devalue and distastefully consider to be an 'unnecessary performance', making you feel like they try to turn you into something you aren't.

    In duality and activity you value exactly the same elements so these problems disappear, with activity having a slight aspect of competition that makes it in a way more lively, but with the rationality/irrationality divide also causing some friction in decision-making.

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    I never noticed this tendency in myself, so I could just be blind to my own shortcomings. I spend most of my time reading, or pursuing some kind of heavy NT venture, so there's very little room for Fe in there. I feel pretty self sufficient. ESE can be somewhat too much for me, from personal experience. I actually handle ESE men better than women from my experience. I prefer the company of other introverts, if I'm being honest. I do have my "UwU" moments but those are reserved for people I trust. I do have that role Fi, so I do care about whether or not my reactions are appropriate.

    I don't feel incomplete in the absence of my dual. I do seek Fe, in the form of emotional music or TV, even trash reality TV where I can just turn my brain off. I have gamma NTs in my life with who I discuss topics. What I noticed there is that they seem really stiff to me. I prefer to punctuate my discussions with some jokes and light banter.

    Idk the way some people express duality is like this biological need. That's unhealthy, imo. I'm a stoic in that sense, I acknowledge that i don't have control over how other people react to me. I take them as they come. If someone is not compatible with me, I will write that off as their individuality, and not necessarily type related.

    I do have a male ESE friend. We were close but I never felt any kind of attraction to him. He was a high achieving student with good grades and an athlete who competed at the national level. We were friends but there was never any attraction between us. At some point, I used to wonder "is he interested in me?" But there was nothing substantial there. With alphas in general, for some reason, dating relationships are like this perpetual limbo. I've had better luck with Gammas, Deltas and even Betas.

    IEI, in my experience, don't initiate contact. It feels like I'm the one constantly asking to hang out. After a while, I get annoyed with it. Maybe if we were dating, it would be different but that's how I feel about IEI. SEI is like this too, so maybe it's an introvert thing. LSI can be a bit mean, imo but they're more steady. Irrational types are somewhat temperamental.

    Duality isn't the holy grail, imo. I'm pretty sure if I married an ESE, I would get exhausted at some point. They're great in smaller doses.

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    I remember one eccentric EIE (we were both so...) who was constantly after some Ti and he also wanted to prove himself. It gets tiresome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    Yeah, that very much makes sense, the part about LII doing this because they are subconsciously oriented towards ESE. I see it in myself for SLE and I'm not too sure how one would "poke" for Se but whatever I do I rarely get the response i seem to be looking for and am also disappointed.
    If anything does come to mind, I'm curious how you'd describe it.

    "I could either try to be playful, and receive a stony response, or I could not, and she would complain that I seemed distant or angry with her. "
    Yeah.. he tries to be playful and when I do not respond as he hopes, he takes it as a signal that I do not want to speak with him, and he goes quiet. But I do want to speak with him, just not in that way.
    Hm...with me, it was hard to know how to talk to her. I felt if I spoke "normally" she often would become defensive or stressed, so I'd become playful to try to cheer her up. Which rarely worked. She said it felt like I was cold or hostile when I wasn't playful, and that my remarks tended to be negative and critical, and she felt like I was being critical of her, even if I wasn't speaking about her. Which surprised me; I really didn't/don't mean to seem that way, and I've honestly never had anyone else say they saw me that way. And I do think I try to be considerate of other people's feelings, which was another reason it surprised me. I'm not sure if that's ITR-related or not. But the long and short of it was that I often felt awkward expressing myself, since I didn't think I could act either "normally" or playfully. I'm not sure this is applicable to your case though; personally I've never known an IEI to particularly dislike me, and, considering their duals, I don't think "being critical" is something that really tends to bother them. Though ILEs can be somewhat critical themselves, so I'm not sure what was happening there.

    We went on a hike together today, and I tried to do what you suggested. I need to first and foremost not act in the way that will seem very hot and cold towards him.
    I tried to still be warm, but it was a bit weird to consciously not go either 100% (or near it) or 0% with Fe.. for me it feels like it can be either on or off, and anything in between is just half-hearted (and thus actually "off" in a sense). It's tricky because I don't want to do anything that requires changing myself too much either because it is unnatural and solutions like that never work in the long run.

    Sometimes he starts talking to me with his normal Ti self and I like it so much more, also because he is not trying to get anything out of me (it feels like he's trying to suck all my Fe out of me, which would be fine if I were ESE because I would *be* Fe). it usually happens when it's just a passing interaction (not an interaction where the goal is the interaction itself.. do u know what i mean)
    I'm not sure how I can ease him out of the "dual-talking" mode (for lack of a better word haha). At least I have an idea of where to start now, and I'll see where it goes.
    Personally, exercise like hiking or running helps calm me down, and think more normally whenever I become more mentally disconnected from reality. I think my experience is more or less typical of LIIs. If you do want to improve your relationship and find a way to talk, continuing to hike together might be good, especially given what you said about trying to have interactions that aren't about the interaction itself.

    also, I feel that it may still hurt him.. the fact that my Fe will readily turn back on if someone else talks to us while we are speaking (because the other person does not feel as if they are trying to take it, it will feels perfectly fine) and I'm sure he can perceive the change in tone, even if I was previously still being warm to him (I hope..) like how I described earlier.

    I've never been quite sure how to engage someone with Ni.. whereas Fe is my tool and I'm more conscious of its presence or not in my actions; in contrast i just *am* Ni. SxEs supposedly like us Ni people but I've always been confused about how exactly they perceive our Ni within us.
    Yeah, I feel similarly about Ti. I don't know how you'd engage someone with it (lure them into discussing Hegel?); I feel like I tend to engage people with Ne instead. It might be that people just generally use their creative to engage with the world.

    I might describe Ni, as a social function, as being related to narrative. Ni egos, especially IxIs, seem to like to tell stories, and weave their thoughts, impressions, and experiences into a continuous narrative, or at least they present information in a way that displays an underlying theme or current running throughout it. Perhaps this could be helpful?

    I think part of our problem is outside of type. In general, for whatever reason, I just don't have much to talk to him about. So if we have conversations the easiest thing is for him to poke me for Fe and the conversation is just that, basically, not talking about anything actually substantial/anything very Ni/Ti. Sigh.

    I really just want to be closer to my brother.. my only sibling too.
    It's probably what I've always sort of known but I wish to deny it- we just don't have great chemistry to begin with. If I'm completely honest.. I am slightly bored when I'm with him. Things certainly are not like this with most of the LIIs I meet, and I think this is just the worse-end of benefaction. For example One of my closest friends is an LII-Ne female and we can create entire Ni/Ne/Ti/Fe conversations out of nothing.
    It could be non-type-related. People are more than just their Sociotype. Particularly it could be the fact that he's not psychically stable. It can be draining to keep talking to such people, especially if they're trying to use you to satisfy whatever it is they feel that they're missing.

    Speaking personally, I feel that people have an obligation to their family, and that as long as they're trying to improve themselves, you ought to be there for them when possible -- because if you won't, then who will? But on the other hand you can't destabilize yourself in the process. I would say you need to ought to create a happy medium where you can talk to him and foster a good relationship, but are able to remain emotionally at an appropriate distance and not become drained by the interaction. Which is, I suppose, what you were saying...well, I'm not good at giving this kind of interpersonal advice.

    With said SEI, was the problem you described the main reason you broke things off with her? Also, did you ever feel as if she was "poking" you for Ne, and it also tire you out in the same way?
    It was a problem, but not the main problem: probably the biggest issue was that I felt she was immature, and expected me to take care of her, emotionally. I also felt like she didn't prioritize me: one problem was that she spent a large amount of her time on her phone -- on one of the first dates I went on with her, she was on her phone half the time, and though she stopped being on her phone so much during dates, I felt often like I was competing for her attention with her phone.

    Another problem, possibly type-related, was deciding what to do. I tend not to be assertive, not because I'm too scared to speak up, but because I don't care about most things in the first place. If asked if I had a preference of what to do, I would generally say "I don't care", because even if I did, my partner's happiness was genuinely more important than any slight preference I had. She felt like she always had to decide things. I'm not saying I wasn't at fault here, but...well, both ILEs and ESEs tend to be pickier than their duals.

    As far as Ne-seeking goes, I felt like she always wanted me to spell out ideas down to the slightest detail, which came to frustrate me over time. Often with Si bases, it can feel like they have no ability to "fill in the gaps" when given an idea; you have to be incredibly explicit, or they don't understand where you're coming from at all. If I was trying to illustrate a point or make an analogy I could always see that she never really understood; I'd either have to give up, or keep trying for such long time that I'd lose interest in whatever I wanted to say in the first place. It felt like I couldn't use illustrative or abstract language at all around her, and when I was particularly frustrated, it felt like she wasn't interested in anything conceptual at all. That wasn't really true; she was interested, and she did try to bring up more abstract topics for conversation. But she wasn't really at home there, and it felt like I had to hold her hand the entire way.

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    The neediness that is described in the original post is really baggage that's independent of type. LIIs tend to be detached from others and value their autonomy above anything else, which is somewhat counter to being needy. Cognitively, IEIs need people far more than LIIs and I've met more than a few who were very high maintenance but again high maintenance has more to do with baggage than type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Synchrony View Post
    The creepy guy is just creepy. Lonely isolated people crave attention and connection. If the guy is truly that creepy, he will have a hard time connecting with people regardless of type.
    You are putting a lot of things together. I'd guess there are people who are isolated and do not want connection... I'm supporting diversity here.
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    I'm lonely and isolated and i just wish people would be quiet and that they would leave me alone forever

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    possibly the less self-confident someone is the more they'd rely on and seek out affirmation from their super id block. a more confident LII might've enjoyed ur fe but wouldn't depend so much on it to the point where he felt bad whenever you withheld it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I felt if I spoke "normally" she often would become defensive or stressed, so I'd become playful to try to cheer her up. Which rarely worked. She said it felt like I was cold or hostile when I wasn't playful, and that my remarks tended to be negative and critical, and she felt like I was being critical of her, even if I wasn't speaking about her
    I’m curious now, do you remember any of these episodes?


    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    As far as Ne-seeking goes, I felt like she always wanted me to spell out ideas down to the slightest detail, which came to frustrate me over time. Often with Si bases, it can feel like they have no ability to "fill in the gaps" when given an idea; you have to be incredibly explicit, or they don't understand where you're coming from at all. If I was trying to illustrate a point or make an analogy I could always see that she never really understood
    Strictly speaking that’s Ti in the creative.
    I was talking to an ILI from abroad visiting here and he requested some word definitions. I informed him of all the different possibilities in slippery Si-speak but he kept interrupting to ask for an exact translation. Maybe it’s a Te thing and superficially that made him sound as someone with limited understanding, but we know he probably has no operative issue with polysemy. It’s close to that with abstractions from someone else’s lips: a burst possibilities that I narrow down on real time as the talk progresses, but at times the interlocutor is too categorical and I’ll have the nagging suspicion they are not really integrating everything. Strati had some to say about mobilizing Ti in SEIs and the reason it propels ‘observations’ to me is related to this very divergence at the expense of its opposite. But I will say I have never been exposed too much to Ti+Ne. Can you provide examples of your analogies,etc?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    ..... but even the most autonomous ppl need a modicum of support, right?
    99% sure he doesn't have baggage
    Yes all people do need support in a broad sense but I thought that there must be more behind your observations; for an IEI to comment that LIIs were needy is somewhat like a heroine addict saying that his brother takes too many Tylenol. Note that the IEIs that I've known personally never listened to anything that I've had to say.

    One doesn't travel through life without acquiring some baggage along the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    I think creative subtypes have much less marked dual-seeking. as a base sub it feels like a little annoying hole in my life. It doesn't stop me from being very self sufficient, in the general sense of the term. but i couldn't deny that the presence of Se improves my life quality of life.
    oh well, maybe we're talking slightly different things. you're talking duality and i'm talking more about the dual-seeking function.
    I would say that the presence of any function improves the quality of my life, even my vulnerable function Se is very nice when someone else can create an environment for it.

    I don't understand what exactly you mean by dual seeking outside of the examples you have provided. I'm saying I'm not needy, and I apologise if I come across that way unknowingly over our convos. Idk what else to say lol.

    also, from our conversations I'd say you appreciate Fe a bit more than you admit (as much as it can be transmitted via text&emojis)
    I don't talk how I text or write. Generally texting is somewhat awkward for me. Even so, I have to ask myself how I'm extracting Fe from you. Isn't that what you mean by dual-seeking behaviour? That I am somehow expecting you to provide me with Fe, or that I'm prodding for it in an Se PoLRish manner? I don't think I am, tbh. I'm extremely aware and self conscious of my actions, and I have to keep asserting that my Fi is still better than my Fe. Fi comes first. I don't behave in inappropriate ways with people. I also know how to judge psychological distance. It's something people learn with age, as it is with role function. I don't "seek" emotional reactions from people in the way that is described in your OP. This is not to say I don't enjoy your company. I really do. It's that, it's not for Fe.

    I really don't think you an I have the same thing in mind when we're talking about dual seeking.

    If I had to describe Fe dual seeking in my life, it would be that engaging with certain people improves my mood and my creativity. It also puts me in a more productive place with my work. In the absence of that, my mood can sour easily.

    The only person who I dual seek from in an active way, as in "I need to talk to you to improve my mood" is my partner and he is not an Fe type. He has never once called me needy or told me that I'm overwhelming in how I prod him for emotional reactions. There's a lot more that goes into improving a person's mood than Fe. You can dual seek from people who aren't your duals. And you can also avoid dual seeking from your dual. Just because someone puts me in a room with some random ESE, and if I'm in a bad mood, it doesn't mean I will go to that ESE and just extract Fe from them. And that's what I've been saying, ESE are often too much for me.

    This is what @Rebelondeck is getting at. If Fe DS means being needy to the point of exhausting every IEI in sight, then Se DS would mean literally being unable to put any plan in life into action until some SLE came and did it for you, to the point that it drives away every LSI in sight. I know I'm being hyperbolic here but idk if you're able to understand what I'm getting at.

    In model G, LII is Fi-/ Fe+ (the reverse of ILE) so you have a person who seeks to avoid creating drama and conflict (Fe+) by distancing themselves from people they find difficult to deal with (Fi-). I can see an ESE aiding me with this maybe, but I don't see any way in which this contributes to the kind of neediness you're talking about.

    "With alphas in general, for some reason, dating relationships are like this perpetual limbo." :{ in general, you think? or just in your experience?
    For me personally, this has always been the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Synchrony View Post
    @Lord Panda: I wonder how much gender roles and subtypes affect the experience? They could be some of the confounding factors.
    What exactly are you talking about? Can you clarify?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Synchrony View Post
    I, an EIE, was a lot like this with my EII older brother because I looked up to him. Even EXEs can't be constantly on or they become kinda mercurial. Why can't it just be said, "I love you bro and I am not trying to ignore you. just have a lot of things on my mind. "
    I have a nagging suspicion that it's the 4D Fi that prevents them from telling that. The high dimensional Fi of SEI and IEI is used to assess quality of relationships, which is then interpreted as something immutable, an aspect of reality that doesn't change. "He's my brother" "I don't want to hurt him", etc... Their Fe is only used to express personal sentiment in a colourful way, as some kind of "side show".

    I have 4D Fe and my feelings can change as fast as the weather on top of the Everest, and I have no probs expressing them(but I refrain from it, otherwise I would traumatize SLI's Fe-Polr ass) because they don't mean anything to me most of the time. I'm just bein' emotional, you know?
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    I have a nagging suspicion that it's the 4D Fi that prevents them from telling that. The high dimensional Fi of SEI and IEI is used to assess quality of relationships, which is then interpreted as something immutable, an aspect of reality that doesn't change. "He's my brother" "I don't want to hurt him", etc... Their Fe is only used to express personal sentiment in a colourful way, as some kind of "side show".

    I have 4D Fe and my feelings can change as fast as the weather on top of the Everest, and I have no probs expressing them(but I refrain from it, otherwise I would traumatize SLI's Fe-Polr ass) because they don't mean anything to me most of the time. I'm just bein' emotional, you know?
    This is so interesting. I have 2D Fi and 1D Fe so I notice the Fi aspects of a relationship before the Fe ones. Like I have more control over how much psychological distance is there between myself and another person, than the social mood among a group of people.

    The best way I can express DS Fe is that I really want to be in the company of people who are all in good relations with each other and with me, and the atmosphere is simple and peaceful. If you have observed any LII in a social setting, they tend to become uncomfortable when the group atmosphere gets tense. I want to make people happy, I want to dissolve conflict and I want to lift people's moods when they're in a bad mood, but I can't. ESE are good at creating these social environments, kind of by being these emotional dictators almost. So the logic is that LII and ESE would be a good match, but ofc reality doesn't always conform to Aristotelian logic.

    According to Model G, LII have the same kind of Fi as ESI, which is kind of like the ethics of rejection. We reject people who make us uncomfortable - those who play games and try to one up us in a social setting. That's maybe why I find ESI somewhat easier to understand than say, SEI at times.

    LII almost universally come across as stiff, cold and somewhat detached. Like I know when I write and i text, I come across as more emotive, but that's because it's more or less of a learnt behavior. I don't understand the emotional prodding that the OP describes. It's just not there. I can't think of a single LII I've known in my life who engages in that kind of behaviour. Fe seeking doesn't mean literally poking people for reactions.

    I don't think that 4D Fe has to do with being emotional. SLI can come across as stiff and even grumpy because PoLR Fe is blind to social environments. Unlike ILI who try to sort of sidestep the issue altogether (Fe-), SLI kind of has to stay and feel like "weathering" the storm of being in an emotionally charged environment. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what i know about IEE is that IEE understands and even plays along the social game but not in a controlling way that ESE does. IEE Fe is more manipulative in that sense, less predictable and more 'malleable' as in they understand how to deal with the SLI who is blind to this altogether. ESE tried to hammer in any crooked nails and this can potentially cause friction between the two.

    Prodding people for reactions is more likely a behaviour of ILE and LSI who have Fi+, the ethics of acceptance. With LSI especially, they want to prod you and poke you, because they are oriented into breaking down the psychological barriers between people rather than creating distance between people they don't get along with. LSI look towards the EIE for Fe-, a person who can create a social environment that is more edgy. This is my interpretation of Model G anyway.

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    @chocolatte I feel you, I have the same problem with LIEs. Like I'm polite and try to help them with their personal problems for half an hour and the next moment they are all over me, acting like we're "friends" and telling me all their personal life. 4D Fi might find that cute, I feel as if it's pushing/crossing my boundaries. Eeeeek!

    Model G puts the creative function in the block of self-affirmation and individual desires. Remember, as much as you like your brother, your Fe is your own to give. Do so as it feels confortable to you, not to him. I can understand that you feel like you owe him the Fe you think he can't provide for himself, but don't let those guilty feelings make your life miserable. Maybe try to work on healthy boundaries.

    The Jungian analyst John Beebe associates the "father/mother" archetype with the creative function, which in this context sheds an interesting light on your behaviour. Did you notice that you feel responsible for providing Fe to your brother? Maybe you can work on decreasing this feeling of responsability as a way to improve your relationship with your bro. Compared to SLE, LII actually doesn't need to be provided with Fe, he needs to learn to do Fe by himself.

    Socionics benefit is not good for intimate relationships because it's an extraverted, "working relationship". It's made to make activities together, create new products, not to become really close. You gonna have to make peace with that, because it never works out anyway. As long as you're both active and bond over activities, it should be fine. Just don't "hang" around each other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synchrony View Post
    The OP in her examples was referencing male Ti subtypes in her observations. I was under the impression that you were female and Ne subtype.

    From my understanding, Ti - subtypes tend to have a stronger pull and higher compatibility with Fe-subtypes. Also, I think, on average, females have a natural advantage towards getting a wider emotional support system than men.

    Hypothetically, I could see how a certain subsect of LII could be chasing after Fe validation and attention if their social circle is somewhat limited.
    Fe validation does not mean attention seeking. Neither does it mean emotional responses from people. What is with these bad stereotypes?

    Fe is about mood, social atmosphere, how groups of people get along, emotional energy in a group, etc. This is how every single socionics description I've read express this. ESE is not even the most emotional type... They are EJs. EJs exert control over their environments.

    The thing with LII is that they want to create these social atmospheres. If they feel someone is in low spirits, they want to cheer them up. Conflicts make me extremely uncomfortable. Being with a group of people who don't get along, where the atmosphere is awkward is like being wrapped in three layers of blankets on a hot sunny day. I feel trapped, uncomfortable. I want to change things. I want things to get better but I have no idea how. 1D Fe can't really resolve this issue. That's what Fe DS is about. It has nothing to do with getting emotional support. If anything, that is more related to Fi - having a support system of people who are close to you and can care for you. Even so, LIE and LSE are not seeking personal close relationships. They struggle with understanding how they stand with others. "Who likes me? What does this person feel about me? Is this a person of good character?" Those are Fi questions. Not Fe.

    What even is Fe validation? Are you talking about attention seeking? Fe has nothing at all to do with validation. As for me, personally, I'm beyond just an introvert - I'm a social recluse. I have 2 friends. I rarely talk to anyone other than my mom. I spend 12-16 hours a day working or reading. Where's the Fe validation? Part of the reason I am so lonely is that I don't feel like I belong anywhere. I don't feel like there is any group where I can go and the people accept me. Maybe, it would be great if some ESE would come in with a readymade social circle of friends who are just ready to integrate me in, and can handle how eccentric and strange i can be at times. Maybe there's an ESE out there who can create a social environment where me sperging about geography or something like that is accepted, and people will listen to me without judgement. Idk as long as that doesn't exist, then I'm okay with being the loner that I am, because literally anything is better than being trapped under blankets on a hot summer night without being able to escape.

    Hopefully now you can understand what dual seeking Fe is. I have not read a single description of DS Fe that is related to attention seeking or getting reactions from people or whatever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Panda View Post
    This is so interesting. I have 2D Fi and 1D Fe so I notice the Fi aspects of a relationship before the Fe ones. Like I have more control over how much psychological distance is there between myself and another person, than the social mood among a group of people.

    The best way I can express DS Fe is that I really want to be in the company of people who are all in good relations with each other and with me, and the atmosphere is simple and peaceful. If you have observed any LII in a social setting, they tend to become uncomfortable when the group atmosphere gets tense. I want to make people happy, I want to dissolve conflict and I want to lift people's moods when they're in a bad mood, but I can't. ESE are good at creating these social environments, kind of by being these emotional dictators almost. So the logic is that LII and ESE would be a good match, but ofc reality doesn't always conform to Aristotelian logic.
    ESE doesn't actually create any social environment intentionally, because they are the mood/atmosphere per se. You're projecting your understanding of Fe as a contact function, while what the inert Fe doms do is pure emotional reaction that doesn't depend on their environment. Whatever they feel, they express. That's actually how they train the inferior Fe of LXIs, you have to manage the "emotional dictators/tanks" with your contact Fe. Don't piss off the rhinoceros! And that's actually why duality feels good, not because ESE provides you with Fe, but because they force you to use your own Fe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Panda View Post
    According to Model G, LII have the same kind of Fi as ESI, which is kind of like the ethics of rejection. We reject people who make us uncomfortable - those who play games and try to one up us in a social setting. That's maybe why I find ESI somewhat easier to understand than say, SEI at times.

    LII almost universally come across as stiff, cold and somewhat detached. Like I know when I write and i text, I come across as more emotive, but that's because it's more or less of a learnt behavior. I don't understand the emotional prodding that the OP describes. It's just not there. I can't think of a single LII I've known in my life who engages in that kind of behaviour. Fe seeking doesn't mean literally poking people for reactions.

    I don't think that 4D Fe has to do with being emotional. SLI can come across as stiff and even grumpy because PoLR Fe is blind to social environments. Unlike ILI who try to sort of sidestep the issue altogether (Fe-), SLI kind of has to stay and feel like "weathering" the storm of being in an emotionally charged environment. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what i know about IEE is that IEE understands and even plays along the social game but not in a controlling way that ESE does. IEE Fe is more manipulative in that sense, less predictable and more 'malleable' as in they understand how to deal with the SLI who is blind to this altogether. ESE tried to hammer in any crooked nails and this can potentially cause friction between the two.

    Prodding people for reactions is more likely a behaviour of ILE and LSI who have Fi+, the ethics of acceptance. With LSI especially, they want to prod you and poke you, because they are oriented into breaking down the psychological barriers between people rather than creating distance between people they don't get along with. LSI look towards the EIE for Fe-, a person who can create a social environment that is more edgy. This is my interpretation of Model G anyway.
    As written above, the prodding is perceived as such by Fe creatives only. I perceive as Fe inferior as being super clumsy when dealing with people, that's all. LII and LSI sometimes look like elefants that what to learn juggling. It's not so fun when they fail and fall on you, but it's not the end of the world.

    Signs of functions are a contentious matter in socionics theory. + may, depending on context, mean a positivist function, or a process function or an asking function, so I don't know what you're referring to. From what I've observed, ESE,SEI,SLE,LSI,LIE,ILI,EII and IEE all have positivist introverted functions and negativist extroverted function, while for all other types it's reverted. My understandin is based on my observations but in my framework too you have the same Fi- as ESI, while I have Fi+ like SLE and SEI. It's is precisely the differing signs that make you not walk on your partner's feet when you use the same function. Makes it also harder to relate to them tho

    Lol, I don't think I am more manipulative just because "I am not controlling like Fe doms". Compared to Fe doms, I just have more control over how I express my Fe. I can 'shut it off' completely when I need to Te or decide to analyse my emotional states using Fi before I decide to express anything. The behavioural difference between Fe dom and Fe demo would be more accurately described as "immediacy". Piss me off enough and I'll volatile like any Fe-dom. But I'm not a very Fi valuing IEE, I know some IEEs that only use Fe only to have good relationships which looks more fake than manipulative to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synchrony View Post
    Okay my bad, the better phrasing is "bids for connection".

    This is what i referencing to. "A bid is any attempt from one partner to another for attention, affirmation, affection, or any other positive connection. Bids show up in simple ways, a smile or wink, and more complex ways, like a request for advice or help. In general, women make more bids than men, but in the healthiest relationships, both partners are comfortable making all kinds of bids."

    I was just thinking of Fe validation as another form of " bids for connection" and reciprocation.
    Thanks a lot for clarifying. I'm not sure what bids for affection fall under. From what I can tell, from your description it seems like bids are related to love languages? I can't see this being type related. I personally almost exclusively use acts of service or physical touch as a way to express and ask for love. This seems like a more complex behaviour. I've never thought of this, if I'm being honest. Maybe because I'm a thinking type. This could be a mix of both Fi and Fe depending on the context. I would imagine a master at the art of bidding would be an ethical type. What comes to mind is instantly is IEE or EIE, but I'm not sure. I just ask for affection if I want it like "can we do this together." I've never really been socially savvy enough to go beyond that.

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    Bids for connection is definitely contact Fi. I have noticed that LXIs use them to initiate interaction.

    Just came up with a thought: On a more negative note, unhealthy LXIs can tend to impose their own "regime of right interaction", like "you have to be nice in this or that way otherwise you're a dick and I don't wanna hang out with you"(=they use contact role Fi to impose their idea of Fe, which is VERY manipulative). Might be that @chocolatte feels guilted into acting nice by her brother.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    ESE doesn't actually create any social environment intentionally, because they are the mood/atmosphere per se. You're projecting your understanding of Fe as a contact function, while what the inert Fe doms do is pure emotional reaction that doesn't depend on their environment. Whatever they feel, they express. That's actually how they train the inferior Fe of LXIs, you have to manage the "emotional dictators/tanks" with your contact Fe. Don't piss off the rhinoceros! And that's actually why duality feels good, not because ESE provides you with Fe, but because they force you to use your own Fe.



    As written above, the prodding is perceived as such by Fe creatives only. I perceive as Fe inferior as being super clumsy when dealing with people, that's all. LII and LSI sometimes look like elefants that what to learn juggling. It's not so fun when they fail and fall on you, but it's not the end of the world.

    Signs of functions are a contentious matter in socionics theory. + may, depending on context, mean a positivist function, or a process function or an asking function, so I don't know what you're referring to. From what I've observed, ESE,SEI,SLE,LSI,LIE,ILI,EII and IEE all have positivist introverted functions and negativist extroverted function, while for all other types it's reverted. My understandin is based on my observations but in my framework too you have the same Fi- as ESI, while I have Fi+ like SLE and SEI. It's is precisely the differing signs that make you not walk on your partner's feet when you use the same function. Makes it also harder to relate to them tho

    Lol, I don't think I am more manipulative just because "I am not controlling like Fe doms". Compared to Fe doms, I just have more control over how I express my Fe. I can 'shut it off' completely when I need to Te or decide to analyse my emotional states using Fi before I decide to express anything. The behavioural difference between Fe dom and Fe demo would be more accurately described as "immediacy". Piss me off enough and I'll volatile like any Fe-dom. But I'm not a very Fi valuing IEE, I know some IEEs that only use Fe only to have good relationships which looks more fake than manipulative to me.
    It's a matter of perspective then. To me, it looks like ESE is an attractive person who can just gather a large group of people and create social cohesion. From my perspective, that's how it appears. I'm not convinced that Fe types are pure volatile emotionality. I think some of them appear really calculated in how the conduct themselves. Maybe I'm mistyped because I absolutely hate the idea of having to "manage" other people's emotionality. It always feels like a monumentally exhaustive task. I don't want to get into it.

    I find ESE overbearing, but that could just have to do with my own pathology. I'm not the healthiest person around. Duality doesn't always feel good. There are cases where it doesn't happen, or it completely fails. From what I have understood, duals come with an instruction manual. Gulenko himself has a book (can't recall the title) where he cites the example of Anna Karenina (EIE) and her husband (LSI) being an example of failed duality. In the novel, Tolstoy goes into deep detail of Anna's psychology and you can see clearly how miserable she was in her marriage, leaving her dual for SLE Vronsky. And the other dual pair mentioned - Kitty (IEE) and Levin (SLI) have to struggle through a lot of heartbreak and disappointment before they get together. Idk why people assume duality is so ideal. Duality, imo, is like Communism. Marx promises it but has anyone really experienced it? Idk. These Russian authors have really vague examples of nameless people experiencing duality, and maybe some fictional examples too. Jung himself never used psychology to determine compatibility between peoples.

    As for +/- I'm using it how Gulenko uses it. Idk what system you follow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    No that's not what I meant!! Sorry for being unclear. I don't feel any way that you're extracting Fe from me or that you're needy in any way!
    When we text i'm naturally more expressive obv and you always respond happily and then we play off each other like that- that's all. When I text ESIs for example they are more unaffected and just do their own thing when replying. So when you listed some ways you search for Fe and they were all "object" type things (eg movies), I wanted to point out you don't mind it in other people (from my observation).=
    For a moment there I felt bad like I was forcing you or something <.< I'm mildly paranoid and I let that get the best of me. Sorry!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Panda View Post
    It's a matter of perspective then. To me, it looks like ESE is an attractive person who can just gather a large group of people and create social cohesion. From my perspective, that's how it appears. I'm not convinced that Fe types are pure volatile emotionality. I think some of them appear really calculated in how the conduct themselves. Maybe I'm mistyped because I absolutely hate the idea of having to "manage" other people's emotionality. It always feels like a monumentally exhaustive task. I don't want to get into it.
    Yeah, emotional volatility might be how I perceive their ignoring Fi. But that's not really what I wanted to say, it's kind of difficult to put into writing. Maybe a more accurate way of describing it would be that Fe doms automatically look at a situation and determine what needs to be done to make the environment reflect their own feelings. Their feelings have an anchor in the outside emotional situation. Like they are geniunely happy if everyone else is happy so they make people confortable. That's also why they can get really angry when someone breaks the mood, while I would be 'do I have enough reasons to be pissed?' first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    Ah.. I've actually experienced the same with LIEs but maybe not as extreme. I never perceived it as pushing my boundaries (even if on the inside I'm a bit surprised or uninterested) and rather thought it was sweet they trusted me (but thinking on it- do they really trust me or is it just the result of a suggestive Fi?).
    Near the end of my chase of an IEI-Fe, she asked me if I trusted her. I thought, "Yeah, I trust you to be an IEI and not an ESI."

    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    Perhaps this is a Fe/Fi difference between us or is it, like you said, because I have 4D Fi..?
    I can't speak for all LIE's, but for me, the attraction that IEI's have is almost all Ni. They do it better than I do. After that, it's their Fe, which I like to watch in action because they do it so well. And their unvalued 4D Fi is just iceing on the cake, which I take to mean that they aren't going to screw me over unless there is some reason, which seems good to them by their calculations, for doing so.

    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    Now that I think of it, I rarely feel as if people are crossing my boundaries and if I do I don't think I consciously register it and I just automatically start distancing us. Strong Fi or unvalued Fi? hm.
    There are probably no Fi leads reading this thread, but if you are, please share your experience

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    What is "slippery Si-speak"? how would you describe it
    More nuanced than Te and muddier than Ti, for example. A penchant for ‘illuminating’ an object from all angles possible and in doing so one runs the risk of overexplaining or sounding redundant. All this while at times also compressing information into vaguer terms, again in opposition to Ti.
    Sicuramente cercherai il significato di questo.

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    It's common and natural for you to 'look down' on your beneficiary even when you know you shouldn't, or you realize it's 'wrong.' ESIs look down on me and I look down on LIIs. The looking down thing isn't like campy movie villain looking down upon, but it tends to happen naturally anyway because of the placement of the functions.

    A beneficiary that's also older than you, can help take the edge off this sometimes IME. My dad was LII, but was also like 42 years older than me with more life experience. He was still very bad at exercising authority over me but it made him a great listener and a close friend.

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    It sounds tiresome to deal with needy LIIs with opposing gamma parents like @FreelancePoliceman. I think gradually ignoring their requests for Fe would be healthier for you and them.

    I have an LII girl friend from MS and we got along well (she had SLE dad). Until she thought I wasn't giving her enough attention so she decided to hang out in clubs with EIE until the EIE broke her teeth with a glass once (she was drunk). After that experience she learned her lesson and started hanging out with alpha SFs who at least put LIIs to bed at 8pm. My experience with beneficiary (ESI) has been actually similar than your's. Except that I don't feel "pushed" to take care of their need for Te. Its more like I start doing it because I notice ESI need so I feel like its not a bid deal for me to help them once, problem is this once turns to be indefinite. I think this problem accentuates when they are non dualized. Like they really need someone taking care of practical issues in time and form. Maybe if I would get money it would be less obnoxious. But they expect me doing it for free. For some reason I'm unable to pass over and ignore this ESI need so I end up always doing more free work.
    Last edited by Akira; 09-05-2020 at 03:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
    It sounds tiresome to deal with needy LIIs with opposing gamma parents like @FreelancePoliceman. I think gradually ignoring their requests for Fe would be healthier for you and them.

    I have an LII girl friend from MS and we got along well (she had SLE dad). Until she thought I wasn't giving her enough attention so she decided to hang out in clubs with EIE until the EIE broke her teeth with a glass once (she was drunk). After that experience she learned her lesson and started hanging out with alpha SFs who at least put LIIs in bed at 8pm. My experience with beneficiary (ESI) has been actually similar than yours. Except that I don't feel "pushed" to take care of their need for Te. Is more like I start doing it because I notice their need so I feel like its not a bid deal for me to help them once, problem is this once turns to be 20 times and else. I think this problem accentuates when they are non dualized. Like they really need someone taking care of practical issues in time and form. Maybe if I would get money it would be less obnoxious. But they expect me doing it for free. For some reason I'm unable to pass over and ignore their need so I end up always doing more free work for them.
    Put me to sleep

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
    It sounds tiresome to deal with needy LIIs with opposing gamma parents like @FreelancePoliceman. I think gradually ignoring their requests for Fe would be healthier for you and them.

    I have an LII girl friend from MS and we got along well (she had SLE dad). Until she thought I wasn't giving her enough attention so she decided to hang out in clubs with EIE until the EIE broke her teeth with a glass once (she was drunk). After that experience she learned her lesson and started hanging out with alpha SFs who at least put LIIs to bed at 8pm. My experience with beneficiary (ESI) has been actually similar than your's. Except that I don't feel "pushed" to take care of their need for Te. Its more like I start doing it because I notice ESI need so I feel like its not a bid deal for me to help them once, problem is this once turns to be indefinite. I think this problem accentuates when they are non dualized. Like they really need someone taking care of practical issues in time and form. Maybe if I would get money it would be less obnoxious. But they expect me doing it for free. For some reason I'm unable to pass over and ignore this ESI need so I end up always doing more free work.

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    I'm so thankful for this thread because you explained things and have a clearer understanding of things I've experienced but can't put into words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    Ah.. I've actually experienced the same with LIEs but maybe not as extreme. I never perceived it as pushing my boundaries (even if on the inside I'm a bit surprised or uninterested) and rather thought it was sweet they trusted me (but thinking on it- do they really trust me or is it just the result of a suggestive Fi?). Perhaps this is a Fe/Fi difference between us or is it, like you said, because I have 4D Fi..? Now that I think of it, I rarely feel as if people are crossing my boundaries and if I do I don't think I consciously register it and I just automatically start distancing us. Strong Fi or unvalued Fi? hm.
    There are probably no Fi leads reading this thread, but if you are, please share your experience
    It quickly registers and I intentionally create distance. There's this uncomfortable feeling of "I don't know you like that so why are you telling me this."

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    The Chosen Prophet. Braingel's Avatar
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    I only have one solid interaction with an LII, and he is the closest I have to a "father figure". He is an online relation...

    I personally do care about him a lot and do like him, and he is helpful and comforting for me, but he can annoy me a bit at times, not because he seeks out my Fe, but because his advice just can be too mechanical, even though it is adaptable because of the Ne, he can on phone have a bit harder time expressing himself (though his Fe is apparent in text), and he gets so easily amazed by things I say, that it is both cute and an annoyance. I think because I have CPTSD and he is very educated in it, given his wife has of it, and he has studied extensively thereof about it, he tries give me excess praise to stroke the inner child... However, he is genuine about it, and I can tell that he genuinely is impressed. He does make it more fluffy though, despite it being genuine, adding emphasis with his "ahh" and whatnot...

    I get along fairly well with him. The relation never has had any conflict, nor has it any upsets.. Just, he can be a bit annoying at times with how he repeats things I do not want apply, and he does do a bit much of excessive praise, which is fine, but it is not feeling as natural and he really is just trying appease my inner child and comfort it.

    If he was closer to my age, it may be a different dynamic. This relation is a mixture of father-daughter, counselor and mentor.. It is strictly one-sided in that he advises and supports me, but he does marvel at my insights and probably does gain from my Fe and expression, being stimulated by it. He is in his late forties, more than double my age. He is a grown man, and his wife probably feeds him enough Fe, so he does not as much requires its being fed, and I am like a snack for his Fe need... He is genuinely helpful though, and I do gain a lot out of him, but mostly for the sake of not having a figure that can be healthy father in my life, and it is not as much information element as is the concept of having there, a father to see through to me.
    I am in my head; not society.

    Yes, that is who I am, hence the bold am.​ Also, a brain angel. (But Zelda's incarnate too).


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    It's a very specific relation, with him trying act like both a father and counselor to me. It is therapeutic for sure.. He also has (without my asking) given me amazon gift cards to allow me get some things of need... I have shown before on here, exchanges between himself and I.
    I am in my head; not society.

    Yes, that is who I am, hence the bold am.​ Also, a brain angel. (But Zelda's incarnate too).


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    He is too timid for my liking in some way, but it also is a comfort to have someone go to who I know will not be too much handle for me when I am overwhelmed by emotion or conflict and cannot bear more. It has its timing.. And for an Se PolR, he also has defended me before, but always in a diplomatic, logical way, pointing out logical fallacies to others and trying reason with them, not really fighting with them ever..Except he was snappy to my mother and father, before, but it took him a very long while to have that connotation, and he is a fairly patient man.
    I am in my head; not society.

    Yes, that is who I am, hence the bold am.​ Also, a brain angel. (But Zelda's incarnate too).


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    I read that the beneficiary is very unlikely to leave the benefactor, and the benefactor generally is one to end relation. And we probably would anyhow, since they respond to our subtle requests in way, and when we stop, it will taper out.. But he has been exceptionally loyal, and for that, I am grateful, given it helps to stabilize me further on emotional level with my already turbulent home life. He knows this, too. And always warns me ahead of time when he will be gone and tries talk to me at same time each day, and I pointed it out to him and asked if he did it too be therapeutic, and he said yes, he tries.. He has called youth shelters I have been in, when I wanted talk with him, and he has always turned up when needed, and he is always respondent.
    I am in my head; not society.

    Yes, that is who I am, hence the bold am.​ Also, a brain angel. (But Zelda's incarnate too).


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