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Thread: I figured out why I constantly conflict with Gammas

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    so this is what Ni ignoring looks like..
    Lol no that's result negativist Ne. You coming up with patterns without explanation for them other than "you can see them if you look strongly enough to confirm your bias" is process positivist Ne if you're really ILE.

    I guess Ni types know instinctively that History is written by the powerful and wouldn't care about any "truths" or patterns in it unless these make them feel inspired. Is it that you're after?

    I should have known you wouldn't understand. Go back to your sandbox kiddoooo

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Lol no that's result negativist Ne. You coming up with patterns without explanation for them other than "you can see them if you look strongly enough to confirm your bias" is process positivist Ne if you're really ILE.
    You got lost in the micro after agreeing that the patterns exist..
    Idk what type I am, yet.

    I guess Ni types know instinctively that History is written by the powerful and wouldn't care about any "truths" or patterns in it unless these make them feel inspired. Is it that you're after?
    No.

    I should have known you wouldn't understand. Go back to your sandbox kiddoooo

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    so this is what Ni ignoring looks like..
    The idea that history itself is unidirectional is not a new concept. It's endorsed by a lot of famous thinkers like Marx, Neitzsche and Hegel. I've read entire books by modern thinkers who believe this to be true, for example Francis Fukuyama has written, ”The end of History" (I can't remember the title too clearly rn and too lazy to do a Google search). And I haven't read the book that you quoted so I can't really understand the context or give a critique of it .

    I don't believe it's ignoring Ni, because then I'm not LII and i don't believe that.

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    @lkdhf qkb You're chill af. Love your posts on here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Panda View Post
    The idea that history itself is unidirectional is not a new concept. It's endorsed by a lot of famous thinkers like Marx, Neitzsche and Hegel. I've read entire books by modern thinkers who believe this to be true, for example Francis Fukuyama has written, ”The end of History" (I can't remember the title too clearly rn and too lazy to do a Google search). And I haven't read the book that you quoted so I can't really understand the context or give a critique of it .

    I don't believe it's ignoring Ni, because then I'm not LII and i don't believe that.
    imo you guys are merely getting lost in the details, thinking that if the details change, the pattern will also change, such as technology somehow being able to halt or reverse the civilizational life-cycle and that somehow the energies required are not reflected in socionics quadras.. failing to see the symbolism, being unable to draw parallels. The quadras to me seem to be built on the idea, that the cycle starts with Alpha and ends with Delta, rotating like the seasons: Spring-Summer-Autumn-Winter.

    Even something simple such as a chair is subject to the cycle: creation - early use - onset of ruin - breaking beyond use ==> create new chair => repeat

    Entropy.



    Ouroboros

    Last edited by SGF; 08-26-2020 at 11:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    You got lost in the micro after agreeing that the patterns exist..
    Idk what type I am, yet.
    Let me rephrase my opinion in an emotionally mature way: I am worried that you're letting your strong ability to perceive abstract patterns get the best of you. I think we can all agree that not everything we perceive is reality. It's like recognizing animal silhouettes in clouds. Seeing them doesn't mean that this pattern you see is a characteristic of clouds. I do perceive the historical patterns, but I won't conclude anything about the nature of history from them until I have better proof.

    If you're really an ILE, I'd like to encourage you to develop your Ti. Your Urteilskraft ('power of judgement') as Kant would say. Where do these patterns come from? What would happen if they didn't exist? How reliable are historical accounts? I wish you the best and hope hear from you! Never stop doubting, yay!


    PS: I'm a Ti Polr, so whatever type you are, if I can do it, so can you

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    imo you guys are merely getting lost in the details, thinking that if the details change, the pattern will also change, such as technology somehow being able to halt or reverse the civilizational life-cycle and that somehow the energies required are not reflected in socionics quadras.. failing to see the symbolism, being unable to draw parallels. The quadras to me seem to be built on the idea, that the cycle starts with Alpha and ends with Delta, rotating like the seasons: Spring-Summer-Autumn-Winter.

    Even something simple such as a chair is subject to the cycle: creation - early use - onset of ruin - breaking beyond use ==> create new chair => repeat
    I think you should look more into it. Ideas like "liberal democracy" are so ingrained into the human experience that I can confidently say that we as a society will never go back to a time where institutionalized slavery is a common practice. Where is the "getting lost in details" here? I'm not really talking about technology, I'm talking about entire paradigm shifts in thinking. It's been more than 2000 years and we haven't been able to shake off Plato's idealism, have we? So how can you say history is cyclical if it hasn't cyclically repeated in 2000 years? We build on to human knowledge, the vast library of thought. Where is the cyclical nature of it? I'm not seeing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Panda View Post
    I think you should look more into it. Ideas like "liberal democracy" are so ingrained into the human experience that I can confidently say that we as a society will never go back to a time where institutionalized slavery is a common practice. Where is the "getting lost in details" here? I'm not really talking about technology, I'm talking about entire paradigm shifts in thinking. It's been more than 2000 years and we haven't been able to shake off Plato's idealism, have we? So how can you say history is cyclical if it hasn't cyclically repeated in 2000 years? We build on to human knowledge, the vast library of thought. Where is the cyclical nature of it? I'm not seeing it.
    well if you can't see these things.. its no use imo. Maybe you lack imagination.




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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Let me rephrase my opinion in an emotionally mature way: I am worried that you're letting your strong ability to perceive abstract patterns get the best of you. I think we can all agree that not everything we perceive is reality. It's like recognizing animal silhouettes in clouds. Seeing them doesn't mean that this pattern you see is a characteristic of clouds. I do perceive the historical patterns, but I won't conclude anything about the nature of history from them until I have better proof.

    If you're really an ILE, I'd like to encourage you to develop your Ti. Your Urteilskraft ('power of judgement') as Kant would say. Where do these patterns come from? What would happen if they didn't exist? How reliable are historical accounts? I wish you the best and hope hear from you! Never stop doubting, yay!


    PS: I'm a Ti Polr, so whatever type you are, if I can do it, so can you
    I'm like a pattern seeking-machine. I love symbolism and drawing parallels. Idk about Ti.
    As Kant would say, the thing in itself is not what we perceive through the senses. There is no chair.

    Ich weis noch nicht. Der (G)Hulenko wird mir so ungefehr nächste Woche sagen welcher Typ Ich bin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    I find the gamma mindset to be decadent, socially unaware & selfish. It leads to the breakdown of order even in the abstract sense and ultimately the denial of the transcendental. A kind of downward spiral that contrasts the upward thrust of the Beta mindset, which is more gothic in nature.

    In my experience this has been my lifelong beef with contemporary society, struggling with the nihilism that it brings, its kinda like drowning.. desperately struggling for one gasp of air.

    My beef with Gamma is beyond the mere political.
    you dont 'get' gamma. you're entitled to be angry. shrug.

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    Is this another state vs capitalism discussion?

    Both state power and capitalist power are very shitty. I think capitalist power *is* the less evil of the two- but that's not really meant to minimize its own shittiness. When ENTjs are stereotypically up capitalism's ass, yeah I kind of internally cringe at times. You could try to blame and gaslight the entire thing on me and say 'Oh that's just your Te polr' but I mean, unchecked capitalism obviously is unethical & harmful as fuck no matter how you sugar coat it.

    any system you have is going to be horrible because it is a system that naturally denies the freedom and love of a man's 'soul' - just because I think capitalism is the slightly less shitty version of the two doesn't mean I am really 'for it.' (I think I said all this before too, but whatever)

    If people think Betas are like ppl who advocate for state power like Nazis I just think that's laughable- although I might pity them if they seriously believe that. Most of the state ppl I encountered were Deltas actually. Or maybe a mix of Deltas/Gammas.

    I think the reason for this is cuz, Unhealthy/unbalanced Fi thinks it's own personal love with somebody is 'more special than other people's special love' and so it tries to deny everybody else a chance to love while having only love for themselves and the person they want to love. It knows the system can't love, so it must abuse others within that system while finding a secret love. It's why historically speaking the only 'right' relationship lawfully speaking was a heterosexual one, but not just a heterosexual one- a snobby and self-righteous heterosexual one. With a lot of stuffy and constraining rules pertaining to that heterosexuality. The Law and 'Right' was only for snobby heterosexuals- and nobody else. This is the dark side of Te/Fi courtrooms.

    It then gaslights itself to believe it should allow itself to exist more than other kinds of love, and only their special love has the right to exist- because of Te justifications. "My love is more sophisticated and subtle and professional, so therefore it's better." It also will allow other love to exist, but only if it's also Fi and only if they can never know much about it, and only if they can gauge it with a Te lens. A Fi person would just tell you that's them having good boundaries, but it gets kinda creepy for Fe valuers. =D

    I'm not saying all Fi valuers behave this way of course LOL - but if you take Fi into a vaccum and turn it into a Narcissistic Idea of itself- that's kind of what happens of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    I think the reason for this is cuz, Unhealthy/unbalanced Fi thinks it's own personal love with somebody is 'more special than other people's special love' and so it tries to deny everybody else a chance to love while having only love for themselves and the person they want to love. It knows the system can't love, so it must abuse others within that system while finding a secret love. It's why historically speaking the only 'right' relationship lawfully speaking was a heterosexual one, but not just a heterosexual one- a snobby and self-righteous heterosexual one. With a lot of stuffy and constraining rules pertaining to that heterosexuality. The Law and 'Right' was only for snobby heterosexuals- and nobody else. This is the dark side of Te/Fi courtrooms.

    It then gaslights itself to believe it should allow itself to exist more than other kinds of love, and only their special love has the right to exist- because of Te justifications. "My love is more sophisticated and subtle and professional, so therefore it's better." It also will allow other love to exist, but only if it's also Fi and only if they can never know much about it, and only if they can gauge it with a Te lens. A Fi person would just tell you that's them having good boundaries, but it gets kinda creepy for Fe valuers. =D

    I'm not saying all Fi valuers behave this way of course LOL - but if you take Fi into a vaccum and turn it into a Narcissistic Idea of itself- that's kind of what happens of course.
    Heteronormativity has little to do with Fi, but with upbringing, religion, the (in)capacity to question relationship norms and the (un)willingness to experiment with your sexuality. I know closed minded people from all quadras.

    Fi is the self referential analysis of feeling states, in it's high dimensional, purest form, it's actually free from social norms of "what you should feel and what not". Fi doesn't think it's feelings are better or more important than those of other people; that's emotional immaturity. Fi valuer X comes up with judgements like "I would suffer a lot if my partner cheated because it would make me feel abandoned/unworthy so I'm gonna look for someone who doesn't cheat". I concede that the relationships of Fi valuer X would be based on the "rule" thou shalt not cheat, but it doesn't mean this Fi valuer will be hostile towards polyamorous people/relationships. Live and let live. A PERSONAL CHOICE IS NOT A UNIVERSAL VALUE JUDGEMENT OR A SOCIAL STATEMENT. Betas don't understand that, because you always have to scream all your choices and values from the rooftop otherwise they assume de facto that you're against them(like wtf? let's just not give a shit about each other's way of life).

    Narcissism is a personality trait that goes well beyond what information metabolism and Jungian typology can explain. Life would be pretty easy if all "unbalanced Fi users" were narcissists and evil, right? It's funny how this kind of discourse pops up again and again, seems to give betas a reason to hate someone. Tbh, you become entangled in your own contradictions when you started attacking a straw man. Turn it as you want, you are spreading the hate, not some unreflective people living in mediocre relationships whose rules they didn't make because they don't know better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Heteronormativity has little to do with Fi, but with upbringing, religion, the (in)capacity to question relationship norms and the (un)willingness to experiment with your sexuality. I know closed minded people from all quadras.

    Fi is the self referential analysis of feeling states, in it's high dimensional, purest form, it's actually free from social norms of "what you should feel and what not". Fi doesn't think it's feelings are better or more important than those of other people; that's emotional immaturity. Fi valuer X comes up with judgements like "I would suffer a lot if my partner cheated because it would make me feel abandoned/unworthy so I'm gonna look for someone who doesn't cheat". I concede that the relationships of Fi valuer X would be based on the "rule" thou shalt not cheat, but it doesn't mean this Fi valuer will be hostile towards polyamorous people/relationships. Live and let live. A PERSONAL CHOICE IS NOT A UNIVERSAL VALUE JUDGEMENT OR A SOCIAL STATEMENT. Betas don't understand that, because you always have to scream all your choices and values from the rooftop otherwise they assume de facto that you're against them(like wtf? let's just not give a shit about each other's way of life).

    Narcissism is a personality trait that goes well beyond what information metabolism and Jungian typology can explain. Life would be pretty easy if all "unbalanced Fi users" were narcissists and evil, right? It's funny how this kind of discourse pops up again and again, seems to give betas a reason to hate someone. Tbh, you become entangled in your own contradictions when you started attacking a straw man. Turn it as you want, you are spreading the hate, not some unreflective people living in mediocre relationships whose rules they didn't make because they don't know better.
    Your description of how Fi valuers see things is 100% accurate for me, and accurate for Fi users I know.

    Alot of people don't get Fi, and what it's like to value it, they think it is about some kind of religious morality and general rules for society and how people should live when that actually is more of a beta quadra thing, IMO.


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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Ich weis noch nicht. Der (G)Hulenko wird mir so ungefehr nächste Woche sagen welcher Typ Ich bin.
    It would be great if you could post the results in the forum. Not many have been typed by Mr. G.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    It would be great if you could post the results in the forum. Not many have been typed by Mr. G.
    I plan to once the typing process finishes. I'm supposed to get the second batch of questions sometime today. I'll make another video and then probably next week I'll get the result. It will include a detailed breakdown as to why I'm that type. Kinda exited tbh.

    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Is this another state vs capitalism discussion?
    No.

    “We no longer live on what we have, but on promises, no longer in the present day, but in the darkness of the future, which, we expect, will at last bring the proper sunrise. We refuse to recognize that everything better is purchased at the price of something worse; that, for example, the hope of grater freedom is canceled out by increased enslavement to the state, not to speak of the terrible perils to which the most brilliant discoveries of science expose us. The less we understand of what our [forebears] sought, the less we understand ourselves, and thus we help with all our might to rob the individual of his roots and his guiding instincts, so that he becomes a particle in the mass, ruled only by what Neitzche called the spirit of gravity. (p.236)” ― Carl Gustav Jung

    I should only believe in a God that would know how to dance.
    And when I saw my devil, I found him serious, thorough, profound, solemn: he was the spirit of gravity - through him all things fall.
    Not by wrath, but by laughter do we slay. Come, let us slay the spirit of gravity!
    I learned to walk; since then have I let myself run. I learned to fly; since then I do not need pushing in order to move from a spot.
    Now I am light, now do I fly; now do I see myself under myself. Now there danceth a God in me.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche

    I have beef with the present Gamma reality. It is existential pain to me, not my way to live. I must slay it first within myself, then in others around me, bunker down, survive and w8 for Kali's wrath to wash over this age. When all that is done and the Delta winter ends.. <.< we will crawl out of the ruins of this age as ourselves, fresh saplings ready to build the next from it's ashes.

    “Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire.” ― Gustav Mahler

    maybe this quote explains it. I don't want to conserve really, but to keep the flame and ignite it again, when the time is right.

    ‘We’re going to meet a lot of lonely people in the next week and the next month and the next year. And when they ask us what we’re doing, you can say, We’re remembering. That’s where we’ll win out in the long run. And someday we’ll remember so much that we’ll build the biggest goddamn steam-shovel in history and dig the biggest grave of all time and shove war in it and cover it up.'” Fahrenheit 451

    A new Renaissance is what I'm after I think, but before that.. winter is coming.
    Last edited by SGF; 08-28-2020 at 04:48 AM.

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    no one cares, fairy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    (also personal judgments play out on a larger scale and stuff, so I would go more Ni route here why maybe you should state your opinions and nevertheless don't exactly go kinda-delta 'you shall not care or interfere at all even if their opinion is or may easily be clearly limiting on others and their rights')
    You're telling me! I have strong Ni and Fe in my id, so i feel pretty confident about how my personal judgements play out on a larger scale. It might seem like deltas don't care, but in "delta land" saying "your opinion is limiting other people's rights" is already the end of story. At their best, delta NFs and STs will by themselves try to overcome the discordance because one of the goals of this quadra is interpersonal harmony and diminution of suffering. They'll try to find a more or less honest compromise.

    "Caring" and "Interfering" is the "carrot and the stick" approach of gammas based on the fact that everyone in that quadra has a compulsive need to act on their opinions and desires and is prone to the illusion of control("Everything in your live is a reflection of a choice you have made" kind of thinking). You shouldn't have the responsability for what other people think or do. You can't always change people's minds, nor should you have the ability to. How would you feel if you were wrong and they suffered because of you? This question seems to me to be a pattern in Gamma, and it always hits them unaware, over and over again, it gets ridiculous, really. Follows the big personal story arc of redemption, based again on the illusion of control; as if they could change anything and were responsible for everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    I think the reason for this is cuz, Unhealthy/unbalanced Fi thinks it's own personal love with somebody is 'more special than other people's special love' and so it tries to deny everybody else a chance to love while having only love for themselves and the person they want to love. It knows the system can't love, so it must abuse others within that system while finding a secret love. It's why historically speaking the only 'right' relationship lawfully speaking was a heterosexual one, but not just a heterosexual one- a snobby and self-righteous heterosexual one. With a lot of stuffy and constraining rules pertaining to that heterosexuality. The Law and 'Right' was only for snobby heterosexuals- and nobody else. This is the dark side of Te/Fi courtrooms.

    It then gaslights itself to believe it should allow itself to exist more than other kinds of love, and only their special love has the right to exist- because of Te justifications. "My love is more sophisticated and subtle and professional, so therefore it's better." It also will allow other love to exist, but only if it's also Fi and only if they can never know much about it, and only if they can gauge it with a Te lens. A Fi person would just tell you that's them having good boundaries, but it gets kinda creepy for Fe valuers. =D

    I'm not saying all valuers behave this way of course LOL - but if you take into a vacuum and turn it into a Narcissistic Idea of itself- that's kind of what happens of course.
    Oh man, you really don't get it. is many things, but it ain't self-righteous if it's healthy. We would never see ourselves as so sophisticated and/or professional so as to delude ourselves into being "Her one true love" that she idiotically didn't realize the truth of. A real and true ILI/ or dominant ain't a simp on the scale you imply.

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    I think there’s a lot of wrong stereotypes and misinterpretations of Gamma. Essentially it boils down to individual freedoms and what the individuals do with their freedom is up to them. You can spend your freedom mooching off others, swindling, traveling, taking care of yourself and your family, etc. Whatever. It’s the freedom in society to be mobile, to not have to ask permission from any authority that’s higher than the self to determine what is right and what is wrong for the person and their desires. Because if you adhere to outside authority such as society (Fe) then you are enslaved to their structural framework (Ti) and will be forced (Se) to comply with what they dictate to be correct. I reject this “system” as not only illogical, illegitimate, but also immoral meaning there is no principle that could ever tell me that I am to forfeit myself and submit to others’ rule. NO NO NO. Fuck that.

    A year ago, in my typing video with Jack, I told him that I don’t believe in anything but myself and what I can do. That’s always been my mentality. And it always will be. That’s my maxim, my principle, my framework, I don’t care what it’s called. It’s funny cuz he typed me as Beta and I reject Beta values the hardest and I’m quite vocal about my hatred of Beta values and fought against it when people kept insisting that I should like collectivism. I loathe it. That doesn’t mean that I seek to enforce everyone else to comply with my mentality but take note that it’s from the backs of Gammas who uphold such fervent beliefs that since they fought for freedom for themselves, they’ve also fought for others’ freedoms in the process. In the free and individual society of Gamma, those who want collectivism can exist without persecution and are afforded the same courtesy and respect as those who fighting for individualism and freedom. But in collective militaristic ruled society of Beta, it’s endless persecution for anyone who dares deviate from what has been authoritatively decided as “right” and “good.” Ultimately, Beta seeks to eradicate free will and stomp on those who don’t comply/echo their sentiments. I will not be forced to bow down to any authority, not by force nor their claim to power just because they seek to censor and curb my freedom and my existence while erecting their bullshit “I know best” on me. Nope. Have guns, will travel.

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    You know yourself better than anyone else does.

    None of the following is an attack on you, and you don't have to feel like you need to defend yourself from me. I'm not being mean to you by having a distinct understanding.

    I had some questions about some of what you're proposing about Gamma Quadra.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiana View Post
    I think there’s a lot of wrong stereotypes and misinterpretations of Gamma. Essentially it boils down to individual freedoms and what the individuals do with their freedom is up to them.
    Yes and also not yes.

    What we do with our freedom is up to us,

    but that doesn't mean Gammas don't have a sense of a social contract nor that they ignore reciprocity (excellent resource)

    nor that they aren't aware of real limits that arise by other people having freedoms. If I choose to act out in an area of my freedom and that action impinges on yours, I've violated our gamma value of freedom.

    There's a way forward that allows me to navigate through the strategic forces in life (other peoples' freedoms, physical and social resources, agreed to social contracts, etc) and extract the most out of life.

    "Fi blocked with Se, Symbol r.gif Symbol f.gif

    Gamma types take a hard-line approach regarding ethical principles and the punishment, even revenge, on those who break them.
    Gamma types place high value on personal loyalty, once they feel a close relationship has been established."

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiana View Post

    You can spend your freedom mooching off others, swindling, traveling, taking care of yourself and your family, etc. Whatever. It’s the freedom in society to be mobile, to not have to ask permission from any authority that’s higher than the self to determine what is right and what is wrong for the person and their desires."
    Even if someone has Dark Triad traits, one can reason them to ethics. How? Well, we've evolved in such a way that "I do better if you stay alive and functioning."
    My doing something altruistic is incredibly self-interested, and that's not wrong or bad.

    Wikisocion: "Te blocked with Ni, Symbol p.gif Symbol t.gif

    Gamma types take a longer-term view regarding efficiency and profitability, giving lower priority to the short term. Likewise, they tend to aim at the broader benefits of decisions, rather than only at those affecting themselves, giving them an inclination for self-sacrifice.
    Gamma types like to talk about where present trends are leading in terms of potentially profitable events and undertakings.
    Gamma types tend to give more value to ideas and concepts that are firmly connected to factual information."


    Quote Originally Posted by Kiana View Post

    Because if you adhere to outside authority such as society (Fe) then you are enslaved
    But Fe isn't necessarily wielded as AUTHORITY. It's a structure, but it's a great tool we can all use either well or poorly. SAME WITH GAMMA variant of the extroverted decisive funtion/organizer: Te

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiana View Post
    "enslaved to their structural framework (Ti)"
    But, again, Gamma has a Fi framework, and whether it's handled like a useful tool or a weapon depends on the person's choice in the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiana View Post
    "and will be forced (Se)"
    Gamma has Se, too (I know you know). (also please see above on how it's wielded).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiana View Post
    "to comply with what they dictate to be correct."
    Literally any quadra is capable of coercion like this but often with a quadra flavor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiana View Post
    "I reject this “system” as not only illogical, illegitimate, but also immoral meaning there is no principle that could ever tell me that I am to forfeit myself and submit to others’ rule. NO NO NO. Fuck that."
    I find a sense of agency really healthy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiana View Post
    "A year ago, in my typing video with Jack, I told him that I don’t believe in anything but myself and what I can do. That’s always been my mentality. And it always will be. That’s my maxim, my principle, my framework, I don’t care what it’s called. It’s funny cuz he typed me as Beta and I reject Beta values the hardest and I’m quite vocal about my hatred of Beta values and fought against it when people kept insisting that I should like collectivism."
    Collectivism, in what sense?

    (The following might be an unsettling amount of options.)

    Are you talking about in the standard sociological sense, Kiana?

    Or, is it in the sense that an enneagram 8 is very worried about being harmed?

    Or is it more like with a soc-last stacking where the person isn't as aware of or interested in social dynamics and social identities?

    Or do you more mean that you want Ji adherence to be the norm? People using internal-to-the system organizing, like we see in Ti and Fi? Every quadra has a value for BOTH a more specific and idiosyncratic sorting and structuring (in either human relations or in logical relations) AND a more collectively recognized structuring (Fe and Te).




    Quote Originally Posted by Kiana View Post
    "I loathe it. That doesn’t mean that I seek to enforce everyone else to comply with my mentality but take note that it’s from the backs of Gammas who uphold such fervent beliefs that since they fought for freedom for themselves, they’ve also fought for others’ freedoms in the process."
    (they also fought for limits to freedoms).
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiana View Post
    "In the free and individual society of Gamma, those who want collectivism can exist without persecution and are afforded the same courtesy and respect as those who fighting for individualism and freedom. But in collective militaristic ruled society of Beta, it’s endless persecution for anyone who dares deviate from what has been authoritatively decided as “right” and “good.”

    Every quadra can persecute. Every quadra can see a transgressor from authority.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kiana View Post

    Ultimately, Beta seeks to eradicate free will and stomp on those who don’t comply/echo their sentiments. I will not be forced to bow down to any authority, not by force nor their claim to power just because they seek to censor and curb my freedom and my existence while erecting their bullshit “I know best” on me. Nope. Have guns, will travel.


    Does Beta want to eradicate free will? Do they want to censor and curb freedom? Betas are a very expressive, dramatic quadra. You're also using physical weapons as a sign of force and talking about ideology.


    What kind of collectivism are you rejecting? Because in Gamma you get social contracts, too.
    Social contracts are not utterly anaethema to gammas. It depends what is IN the social contract.

    Beta has very intense political declarations. Gammas there's this quieter kind of intensity.

    gamma isn't inherently 'don't tell me what to do,' and it also isn't inherently against limitations by government or other actors limiting excesses. It's all tools. The whole world is tools.
    'How can I hack myself?' etc.

    Gamma can align with social democracy and other CHOSEN Left policies if the experimental results type of FACTS versus internal logic of a system indicated better results from Left policies. Gammas are not against being informed what is best to do. That interests them. "Oh, really? (*extraction of value urges begin to boil).
    Gammas are also not against alliances or rules. Rules are constructs and utterly changeable but quite useful tools if managed well. If the tool doesn't work for the scenario, pick up another tool or look to see if Alpha invented one and Beta championed it


    Wikisocion:

    "Beta types tend to describe personal views of special meaning with "poetic" or "dramatic" expressions and language.
    Beta types are often deeply concerned about social issues and the direction the world is heading. They believe that apathy is a significant cause of societal problems, and work to fight against it."



    "Gammas tend to regard Beta types as driven, ambitious people with a sense of purpose and who can get things done, usually with very strong views, as in political issues or ways of approaching work, which Gammas tend to see as not backed by sufficient factual confirmation and therefore too ideological. Gammas also may regard Betas as two-faced when bent on achieving a goal, and too concerned with their social status, and that of others, within any given social group."

    "Fi blocked with Ne, Symbol r.gif Symbol i.gif

    Beta types are not inclined to enjoy discussions of personal experiences when the focus is on a person's own inner feelings, especially when described in a subdued way.
    Beta types tend to be skeptical of another individual's potential for personal growth in terms of abilities and character, and dislike being the subject of such a discussion by others about themselves."

    "Betas tend to regard Gamma types as stand-offish and occasionally emotionally hostile, judgemental, and inclined to not seeing the "big picture" in political or work situations, a combination of political naivity and moral stiffness which may end up jeopardizing the Betas' goals. Socially boring, "can't take a joke", vindictive. A group consisting of Betas and Gammas does not mix well. Betas try to make general jokes, but Gammas make extremely personal sharp jokes. Gammas like everyone to take care of their own needs and people are constantly moving and forming small groups but Betas want people to stay together. Gammas feel that Betas are trying to restrict their fun and Betas feel that Gammas are just trying to break the fun group. However, on a personal level Betas and Gammas often get along very well - they discuss politics, religion, nature, etc. They both see the general trends and they compare predictions of what will happen next. Betas view the general emotions motivating the events and Gammas view the objective facts so they might not agree but the conversations are intriguing nonetheless."
    Last edited by nanashi; 01-30-2021 at 08:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    These things are all institutions that developed because of specific historical processes. You can't just will them into existence, and "Quadra Gamma" certainly didn't do it.
    YES, FreePo, with the game on the field at the time. Many forces at work.

  22. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    You know yourself better than anyone else does.

    None of the following is an attack on you, and you don't have to feel like you need to defend yourself from me. I'm not being mean to you by having a distinct understanding.

    I had some questions about some of what you're proposing about Gamma Quadra.
    I want to first address that I know you're "not being mean" but I know that you're fake and disingenuous because you take it upon yourself as being the arbitrator of Gamma Quadra. You're not only too aristocratic to be Gamma, but you're also too long-winded and heavily rely upon random "sources" texts to refer to for you to identify what Gamma is which tells me further that you're not Gamma. You echo verbatim from "sources" but don't demonstrate how ideas get applied. You just cut paste reading materials as if that's the authority when Te is condensed and concise in execution, especially with communication, and seeks to simplify large bodies of information. You do literally no such thing. I see straight through your attempt to piggyback what I say to pick my brain because I am a vocal verified Gamma (there's verified ILIs floating around but they're not vocal) and to correct me to show off that you're Gamma. It's not going to work but I'll answer some of your "questions."

    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    Yes and also not yes.
    What we do with our freedom is up to us, but that doesn't mean Gammas don't have a sense of a social contract nor that they ignore reciprocity (an excellent resource) nor that they aren't aware of real limits that arise by other people having freedoms. If I choose to act out in an area of my freedom and that action impinges on yours, I've violated our gamma value of freedom. There's a way forward that allows me to navigate through the strategic forces in life (other peoples' freedoms, physical and social resources, agreed to social contracts, etc) and extract the most out of life.
    Of course, there are boundaries and limitations with everything. That's the unspoken obvious. I didn't talk about the limitations of freedom because it wasn't important. I was mainly speaking to SGF since he created the topic and my motivation was to elevate the positive qualities of what I believe in that is also generally summed up as "Gamma values."

    You're not Gamma. You're trying to frame Gamma values to accommodate your SJW mindset that expansive Gamma values actually care about not harming others. Of course, Gamma doesn't want to intentionally "harm" others but that's NOT a Gamma value, that's a Si-valued Quadra (peripheral) value. When it comes down to it, it's about self-interest and profit and if anyone is in the way, it's me over you. EACH AND EVERY TIME. That's a HUGE part of the Gamma selfishness. It doesn't mean that Gammas automatically gonna throw ppl to the wolves but it's still so far away from the SJW "protect people" shit. People are not delicate. In this world, it's everyone for themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    But Fe isn't necessarily wielded as AUTHORITY. It's a structure, but it's a great tool we can all use either well or poorly. SAME WITH GAMMA variant of the extroverted decisive function/organizer: Te

    But, again, Gamma has a Fi framework, and whether it's handled like a useful tool or a weapon depends on the person's choice at the moment.

    Gamma has Se, too (I know you know). (also please see above on how it's wielded).

    Literally, any quadra is capable of coercion like this but often with a quadra flavor.
    Fe is a rational function and wields its KIND of authority through the public/social sphere. By your convoluted "point," all the functions are tools but cognitive functions are hard-wired. You don't choose to pick up a function just for shits and giggles. There is already a predisposition for every function which is why they're defined as such. People don't get outside of themselves and analyze how they'll "use" their functions, they just are themselves. I think you're conflating cognitive "preference" with personal preference.

    LOL "see how Se is wielded" Yeah, take your condescending tone down 4 notches. You may need a reference guide to know how Se works since you don't value Se.

    All the Quadras have all the functions. It depends on if it's "valued" or not and by valued, it doesn't mean that it's necessarily conscious. It's valued in the way it's executed.

    No, not "any Quadra is capable of coercion." It's the central Quadras who fight for power because they value Se. You should read and learn all the shit you're telling other people to read.

    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    I find a sense of agency really healthy.
    Collectivism, in what sense?
    "A sense of agency" is a big thing for Gamma, whether you think it's "healthy" or not.

    Collectivism is part of Beta Quadra values which is what I've been talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    (The following might be an unsettling amount of options.)

    Are you talking about in the standard sociological sense, Kiana?
    That's part of it but you can't talk about Quadra values without touching upon some sociological aspects.

    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    Or, is it in the sense that an enneagram 8 is very worried about being harmed?
    Or is it more like with a soc-last stacking where the person isn't as aware of or interested in social dynamics and social identities?
    WTF are you talking about?! I made no mention whatsoever about enneagrams.

    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    Or do you more mean that you want Ji adherence to be the norm? People using internal-to-the system organizing, like we see in Ti and Fi? Every quadra has a value for BOTH a more specific and idiosyncratic sorting and structuring (in either human relations or in logical relations) AND a more collectively recognized structuring (Fe and Te).
    I literally don't know WTF you're talking about or how your mind could wander off into this. Ji? I don't know CT and again, I made no mention of any of this.


    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    (they also fought for limits to freedoms).
    WRONG. That sounds like Delta shit because of the overt concern about "harming" others is a blatant rejection of Se. No, Gammas fight for freedom and will fight to keep their freedoms. They want to limit others from limiting their freedoms.

    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    Every quadra can persecute. Every quadra can see a transgressor from authority.
    LOL, that's one the most idiotic thing you could say which is like saying "anyone can be anything." It's not solely about the persecution, it's about WHY they're persecuting. And persecution is very much an aristocratic Quadra thing as it falls under the category of collectivism. Beta aristocracy is more forceful and noticeable because they value Se which is an overt force so they're more prone to persecution than democratic Quadras.


    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    Does Beta want to eradicate free will? Do they want to censor and curb freedom? Betas are a very expressive, dramatic quadra. You're also using physical weapons as a sign of force and talking about ideology.
    Yes, they do. Because their brand of Ti-Fe mixed with valued Se is about hierarchy and enforcement of their hierarchy and there can only be 1 at the top. Maybe Betas don't consciously think that way, but that's what it boils down to. Beta Se wants to eradicate "weaknesses" so by discarding anyone who's slowing down the system/structure (Ti), they're strengthening themselves (Fe echo chamber).


    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    What kind of collectivism are you rejecting? Because in Gamma you get social contracts, too.
    Social contracts are not utterly anaethema to gammas. It depends what is IN the social contract.
    Social contracts aren't collectivist by nature but are individualized. You're mixing up compliance with collectivism.

    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    Beta has very intense political declarations. Gammas there's this quieter kind of intensity.
    Sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    gamma isn't inherently 'don't tell me what to do,' and it also isn't inherently against limitations by government or other actors limiting excesses. It's all tools. The whole world is tools.
    'How can I hack myself?' etc.

    LOL no that's some dumb Delta shit you've tacked onto Gamma. Gamma isn't about tools. It's about resourcefulness, working hard to gain and get ahead, and being independent of the noise of "this side" vs "that side." It all comes down to "WHAT DO I WANT FOR ME."

    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    Gamma can align with social democracy and other CHOSEN Left policies if the experimental results type of FACTS versus internal logic of a system indicated better results from Left policies. Gammas are not against being informed what is best to do. That interests them. "Oh, really? (*extraction of value urges begin to boil).
    Gammas are also not against alliances or rules. Rules are constructs and utterly changeable but quite useful tools if managed well. If the the tool doesn't work for the scenario, pick up another tool or look to see if Alpha invented one and Beta championed it
    Again, more of your projections show me that you just want to find self-validation by warping Gamma values to fit your identity.


    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    "Beta types tend to describe personal views of special meaning with "poetic" or "dramatic" expressions and language. Beta types are often deeply concerned about social issues and the direction the world is heading. They believe that apathy is a significant cause of societal problems, and work to fight against it." "Gammas tend to regard Beta types as driven, ambitious people with a sense of purpose and who can get things done, usually with very strong views, as in political issues or ways of approaching work, which Gammas tend to see as not backed by sufficient factual confirmation and therefore too ideological. Gammas also may regard Betas as two-faced when bent on achieving a goal, and too concerned with their social status, and that of others, within any given social group."
    Ok, you actually fit this description of Beta so what's the point? You're trying to subtly come out as a Beta or what?


    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    Beta types are not inclined to enjoy discussions of personal experiences when the focus is on a person's own inner feelings, especially when described in a subdued way. Beta types tend to be skeptical of another individual's potential for personal growth in terms of abilities and character, and dislike being the subject of such a discussion by others about themselves."

    "Betas tend to regard Gamma types as stand-offish and occasionally emotionally hostile, judgemental, and inclined to not seeing the "big picture" in political or work situations, a combination of political naivity and moral stiffness which may end up jeopardizing the Betas' goals. Socially boring, "can't take a joke", vindictive. A group consisting of Betas and Gammas does not mix well. Betas try to make general jokes, but Gammas make extremely personal sharp jokes. Gammas like everyone to take care of their own needs and people are constantly moving and forming small groups but Betas want people to stay together. Gammas feel that Betas are trying to restrict their fun and Betas feel that Gammas are just trying to break the fun group. However, on a personal level Betas and Gammas often get along very well - they discuss politics, religion, nature, etc. They both see the general trends and they compare predictions of what will happen next. Betas view the general emotions motivating the events and Gammas view the objective facts so they might not agree but the conversations are intriguing nonetheless."
    Yeah, that basically describes how SGF, who's a verified Beta, views Gammas. What's the point of throwing this quote in when SGF has already been demonstrating how Betas view Gammas?


    Conclusion: Your written communication needs a TON of work. In the future, don't quote all that longass pointless wall of text as if you're saying that. You come off looking like you can't think for yourself and so far you've already shown that you're incapable of formulating your own analysis. If people wanted to read that shit then they'd read it on their own and formulate their thoughts on it. They don't need you to throw them passages from websites and books as if it's the final say.
    Last edited by Lolita; 01-31-2021 at 01:04 AM.

  23. #63
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    Now I'll step in and moderate. I was gonna go deal with the LSE for being wrong, but this is more pressing.

    I'll summarize. Stereotypes are wrong. Use the theory correctly. Government != Gamma. People in Government = Gamma, Beta, Alpha, and Delta.

    Alright now what the frick is this angst? I'm gonna go read a bunch, BRB with a large edit.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology

    An optimist - does not get discouraged under any circumstances. Life upheavals and stressful events only toughen him and make more confident. He likes to laugh and entertain people. Enters contact with someone by involving him with a humorous remark. His humor is often sly and contain hints and double meanings. Easily enters into arguments and bets, especially if he is challenged. When arguing his points is often ironic, ridicules the views of his opponent. His irritability and hot temper may be unpleasant to others. However, he himself is not perceptive of this and believes that he is simply exchanging opinions.

    http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=LIE_Profile_by_Gulenko

  24. #64
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    What the frick. Can we be a little less emotional and as a result stupid? It's stupid to call someone an SJW on the internet. Absolutely retarded. Like, what the frick. Act like an adult.

    Anyways. Two options, 1. Nanashi isn't gamma, the type that uses sources. 2. You aren't gamma, the type that uses sources. I wonder which.

    And yeah, I know you are gonna either ignore this or read it and get angsty. Guess what. You already pissed me off, so I don't care. Good luck with that.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology

    An optimist - does not get discouraged under any circumstances. Life upheavals and stressful events only toughen him and make more confident. He likes to laugh and entertain people. Enters contact with someone by involving him with a humorous remark. His humor is often sly and contain hints and double meanings. Easily enters into arguments and bets, especially if he is challenged. When arguing his points is often ironic, ridicules the views of his opponent. His irritability and hot temper may be unpleasant to others. However, he himself is not perceptive of this and believes that he is simply exchanging opinions.

    http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=LIE_Profile_by_Gulenko

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    using sources doesn't mean one must be gamma!

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    Yeah basically. I honestly don't care what you wear as long as it doesn't break the law, assuming the law is reasonable. It's similar to smoking. I'm not gonna rat you out on smoking weed, it's a stupid law.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology

    An optimist - does not get discouraged under any circumstances. Life upheavals and stressful events only toughen him and make more confident. He likes to laugh and entertain people. Enters contact with someone by involving him with a humorous remark. His humor is often sly and contain hints and double meanings. Easily enters into arguments and bets, especially if he is challenged. When arguing his points is often ironic, ridicules the views of his opponent. His irritability and hot temper may be unpleasant to others. However, he himself is not perceptive of this and believes that he is simply exchanging opinions.

    http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=LIE_Profile_by_Gulenko

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    Quote Originally Posted by SGF View Post
    I no longer need to criticize Gammas imo, it is who you guys are and that is to be accepted by me at this point.
    It is true that gammas are generally more attracted to libertarianism but I've seen left-wing liberal gammas, I've seen libertarian alphas etc. But generally speaking, yes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Surreal View Post
    I'd say that the best society is one that has the most Quadra diversity. If all the Quadras work together, they can help overcome the flaws of individuals.
    But this is today's society and it's not going very well.

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