That depends on how serious your problem is, I can't tell from this distance. It might be as easy as allowing yourself to grow out of it, or getting some serious therapy. If your interested at a serious but low threshold entrance into better understanding your issue and if you need help, get the book "Reinventing Your Life" by Jefrrey E. Young. I have read gazillions of self-help books, and this is the only book I know of that does not only explain how situation A is bad and situation B is healthy, it details the steps how to actually get from A to B, whereas most self-help books just recommend that you should do B instead of A, which is easier said than done. It's a great book, but do not expect a quick fix. Expect the contrary.
Thank you for the recommendation. Unfortunately, I live somewhere that doesn't permit me access to the book. I'm still young though, so this issue may be something I have to outgrow. At least I have Alan Watts's lectures to calm and soothe me.
Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb
This actually sounds more like enneagram 9 problems than EII ones. The most common tips for 9s are: Try to work on your self-esteem, until you can sense that your contribution to the world is wanted and appreciated. Maybe make a list of things you wish for yourself, things you're worthy of. Achieve them.
Se skills that could help you are : learn to say no when you don't want something, try to be more present and engaged with the world, get to know your physical strength because you have more than you imagine
Not sure if I'm a 9, but your advice applies to me anyway. I've already started my self-esteem improvement by creating this thread that I was scared to create because I'm scared of people, lol. But I'm also excited because maybe I can make a positive impact.
My self-esteem will be improved if:
-I can make people feel happy after a bad day
-My words soothe people
-I make people feel loved and welcomed
-I can be brave and know what I want
I think Jung said too much idealism is dangerous though... maybe I should just be more present and engaged. Thanks for the encouragement
Last edited by lurker; 08-12-2020 at 12:52 PM.
Reason: rewording
I think I know where you're coming from, but I still think 9. 2s are often proud to intervene in the lives of others and put others needs before their own. They'll post stuff like "why is my love never reciprocated?!". 9s back down and never say no because they feel threatened and want peace, and end up making too many concessions and "loosing themselves".
With 9 it’s about peace and merging with others. With 2 it’s more purely about self-sacrifice and backhanded manipulation that way, and lurker didn’t say anything about “peace”, so it seems more quintessentially 2 to me.
My self-esteem will be improved if:
-I can make people feel happy after a bad day
-My words soothe people
-I make people feel loved and welcomed
-I can be brave and know what I want
Obviously this is a bit of a short description to go by, but generally speaking it is not a good thing if your self-esteem is dependent on the reactions of other people. True self-esteem is generated from within.
Self-esteem is actually a very complex phenomenon. Many authors implicit or explicit definition is quite simple, something like the confidence one radiates, something one can learn by giving oneself a positive-language pep talk into the mirror twice a day. The psychologist Nathaniel Branden, who wrote extensively on the matter and is considered in fact as the founder of the Self-Esteem movement, considers it a much more complicated phenomenon. True self-esteem is robust, can deal with a blow and doesn't suffer at the slightest setback. Branden defines self-esteem as:
the disposition to experience oneself as competent to cope with the basic challenges of life and as worthy of happiness", and proposed that, while others (parents, teachers, friends) can nurture and support self-esteem in an individual, self-esteem also relies upon various internally generated practices
Branden's books a fantastic reads, but like most self-help books, they don't really tell you what steps you need to take to get from A to B. Still, the can give a good picture of what it is any healthy human being should strive for. I can say it is the basic goal of my personal life. I often joke that I don't mind dying, but if I die, I would like that to happen in a period of my life when my self-esteem is high, so that I don't have to look back at my life having been wasted or unfinished.
ETA: I don't know where you live, but the book might actually have been translated into your local language.
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
Obviously this is a bit of a short description to go by, but generally speaking it is not a good thing if your self-esteem is dependent on the reactions of other people. True self-esteem is generated from within.
It's okay because I'm not trying to rush myself into becoming confident. But what I wrote are my honest feelings, unhealthy or not.
Originally Posted by consentingadult
Self-esteem is actually a very complex phenomenon. Many authors implicit or explicit definition is quite simple, something like the confidence one radiates, something one can learn by giving oneself a positive-language pep talk into the mirror twice a day. The psychologist Nathaniel Branden, who wrote extensively on the matter and is considered in fact as the founder of the Self-Esteem movement, considers it a much more complicated phenomenon. True self-esteem is robust, can deal with a blow and doesn't suffer at the slightest setback. Branden defines self-esteem as:
Branden's books a fantastic reads, but like most self-help books, they don't really tell you what steps you need to take to get from A to B. Still, the can give a good picture of what it is any healthy human being should strive for. I can say it is the basic goal of my personal life. I often joke that I don't mind dying, but if I die, I would like that to happen in a period of my life when my self-esteem is high, so that I don't have to look back at my life having been wasted or unfinished.
I don't see any need to quickly get from A to B. You mention to someone that you have low self-esteem and they say, "fix fix fix!"
I think it's worn me out. These psychologists wear me out. Might even be part of the problem, if you ask me. Just let me develop my personality in all its awkwardness and quirkiness. Not a personal attack against you- just my real reaction and... opposition, I guess.
Originally Posted by consentingadult
ETA: I don't know where you live, but the book might actually have been translated into your local language.
Doubt it. Plus, I'm not fluent in the language of this country.
It's okay because I'm not trying to rush myself into becoming confident. But what I wrote are my honest feelings, unhealthy or not.
I don't see any need to quickly get from A to B. You mention to someone that you have low self-esteem and they say, "fix fix fix!"
I think it's worn me out.These psychologists wear me out.Might even be part of the problem, if you ask me. Just let me develop my personality in all its awkwardness and quirkiness. Not a personal attack against you- just my real reaction and... opposition, I guess.
Doubt it. Plus, I'm not fluent in the language of this country.
Preach! That's exactly how I feel. "True self esteem is generated from within." I hear that so often but I'm still left with the question "How?". And the only thing I can come up with is having such a big ego that you believe you can do anything despite having the evidence to back up having such a big ego.
Validation is simple and easy to understand, you feel good when you're treated good. But this self esteem, confidence generated from with in sounds nice, sounds great, but never makes sense to me. It's just vague and leaves me confused, like I missed something at birth.
For me personally it's not self generated. It comes from experience (and I feel like intuitively we know that despite all the advice saying it's comes from within). If you do something over and over again eventually you get good at it and become confident that you can succeed at it if you do it again, instead of magical belief in your big ego. And in the beginning you probably weren'tconfident doing the thing like you are now. This doesn't come from within, but experience.
For example. I remember the first time I drove a car by myself ( I was 27 so I was an adult the first time I did). I was not confident at all, I was anxiety ridden. But I had to do it to commute to work, so despite completely lacking confidence, I did it, and I almost killed myself and another person trying to do a U turn ( I turned too much and ended up almost crossing over into the opposing lane with incoming traffic.) After that day I never wanted to drive again in my life, my hands were visibly shaking once I got out the car, I couldn't wait to get out that death machine. And I was ridden with so many insecurities about being an adult who didn't know how to drive I felt embarrassed pumping gas because I thought someone would leap out and make fun of me saying I was doing it wrong. That's how silly my anxiety made me think. But now, I barely even think twice about driving, have practically no fear that I don't know what I'm doing when I'm in the car, I'm calm about the whole thing, and to me that's confidence "self esteem" and all that good stuff, but none of it is self generated out of thin air just because I think I'm some hotshot who can do anything, but generated from experience, I've done this before and succeeded, I'm confident I can do it again. "Confidence comes from within" I could saying that in the morning til I'm blue in the face but honestly has never helped me become confident. Experience is the only self esteem I know to be true.
Break your knee and then have confidence you can do surgery on yourself to fix it. That's what self generated confidence sounds like to me. But I bet you'd trust an experienced doctor.
And affirmations to me seem ridiculous, the only reason you even repeat these "positive mantras" to yourself over and over again is because you don't actually believe them.
Last edited by Lord Pixel; 08-13-2020 at 10:40 PM.
Self esteem starts with pulling yourself together and taking responsibility for your life. That means stop living in your complexes and start meaningful suffering. Not avoiding reality and the demands of the world. It can also mean lowering yourself and doing "dirty" things if you have been too pure previously.
You wont get rid of your complexes. That takes time. But you can aim beyond them and follow your star. This will create inner tension because you need to go beyond your comfort zone. You will be fighting your complexes and not just following them. In that way it requires a hero mentality.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
Thank you for the recommendation. Unfortunately, I live somewhere that doesn't permit me access to the book. I'm still young though, so this issue may be something I have to outgrow. At least I have Alan Watts's lectures to calm and soothe me.
There's a website called Library Genesis which has tons of free books. Link
Here's a direct link to the specific book being mentioned: Link.
Also,
I probably don't need to tell you this, but if your country has strict levels of censorship, I would be very careful about where you go on the Internet. If your country has an Internet security apparatus, then coming to this website could be problematic and get you in trouble.
I probably don't need to tell you this, but if your country has strict levels of censorship, I would be very careful about where you go on the Internet. If your country has an Internet security apparatus, then coming to this website could be problematic and get you in trouble.
Why would visiting this website get me in trouble? There is Internet censorship but a site like this one seems harmless to me.
Self esteem starts with pulling yourself together and taking responsibility for your life. That means stop living in your complexes and start meaningful suffering. Not avoiding reality and the demands of the world. It can also mean lowering yourself and doing "dirty" things if you have been too pure previously.
You wont get rid of your complexes. That takes time. But you can aim beyond them and follow your star. This will create inner tension because you need to go beyond your comfort zone. You will be fighting your complexes and not just following them. In that way it requires a hero mentality.
Once again this all sounds nice but is still vague psychology stuff that just brings up more questions. Rid yourself of your complexes? How? How do you know what complexes they are, and what do you do to rid yourself of them, let alone aim beyond them and "Follow your star"? How do you get from A to B? Especially if you don't know what A even is? (A meaning complex).
I swear confidence is an easy thing when you get rid of the smoke and mirrors. (I am willing to accept whether certain types experience it differently though).
If you have fear, then you don't have confidence, how do you get rid of the fear? You gain experience either from yourself or watch others who have experience and the fear will be replaced with confidence. The only requirement to confidence is either courage (to act despite fear) or coaching (learn from someone whose already succeeded). With enough sucesses you'll feel capable and have self esteem because of it.
Last edited by Lord Pixel; 08-15-2020 at 07:20 PM.
Once again this all sounds nice but is still vague psychology stuff that just brings up more questions. Rid yourself of your complexes? How? How do you know what complexes they are, and what do you do to rid yourself of them, let alone aim beyond them and "Follow your star"? How do you get from A to B? Especially if you don't know what A even is? (A meaning complex).
I swear confidence is an easy thing when you get rid of the smoke and mirrors. (I am willing to accept whether certain types experience it differently though).
If you have fear, then you don't have confidence, how do you get rid of the fear? You gain experience either from yourself or watch others who have experience and the fear will be replaced with confidence. The only requirement to confidence is either courage (to act despite fear) or coaching (learn from someone whose already succeeded). With enough sucesses you'll feel capable and have self esteem because of it.
I wrote this in a language that works for me. If somebody else can relate to it, then that's great. But it's not gonna work for everybody. I'm not trying to be your personal therapist. It might seem like "vague psychological stuff", but these things are psychological and sometimes you can grasp some inner process better by expressing it in slightly symbolic language like "follow your star".
You don't necessarily need to know your complexes. It's about having a plan that can carry you forward when you feel like quitting. When you follow a progressive path you will certainly bump into your complexes. We need to strive for something. Sticking to the actual personality is problematic. Instead people follow the progressive values of their culture when growing up and becoming someone. (it's a normal development)
My point is that you can still be very much incomplete and have fear, but if you have the basic progressive alignment then I would call that self-esteem. And it gets better as time goes on.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
I wrote this in a language that works for me. If somebody else can relate to it, then that's great. But it's not gonna work for everybody. I'm not trying to be your personal therapist. It might seem like "vague psychological stuff", but these things are psychological and sometimes you can grasp some inner process better by expressing it in slightly symbolic language like "follow your star".
You don't necessarily need to know your complexes. It's about having a plan that can carry you forward when you feel like quitting. When you follow a progressive path you will certainly bump into your complexes. We need to strive for something. Sticking to the actual personality is problematic. Instead people follow the progressive values of their culture when growing up and becoming someone. (it's a normal development)
My point is that you can still be very much incomplete and have fear, but if you have the basic progressive alignment then I would call that self-esteem. And it gets better as time goes on.
I mean you were talking about it like this is what self esteem is, there was no "This is self esteem for me." And I don't know exactly what you mean when you say progressive.
All I know is, there's A:fear , B:experience/coaching , C:confidence , to get to C from A you take B. Following the progressive alignment of your culture to bump into the complexes you have but don't know what they are just leaves me in the dark and doesn't help me grasp anything any clearer or take action. But hey if it floats your boat.
'Manipulative Meekness' is something more akin to what IEEs do lol. (not to hate or piss on IEEs, but it just makes sense to me)
EIIs to me are actually very stern and confident about a lot of stuff. Like LIIs with their polr, they can sometimes be too harsh and unforgiving if their polr is hit and they are offended about something. They won't play the diplomatic nicey-nice game that an IEE or IEI or ESE/SEI would try to play. ((they might try to desperately dual seek Te to try and make it more 'objective' like yearning for that dual seeking function to help fill the gaps in their own psyche)) Because tho Se is the function of 'over-all' confidence in somebody in a kind of basic and all-around way- it might not be so noticeable as it is their PoLR but besides that, and because functions don't really exist in a vacuum like that, you can really see what Aramas was talking about with some of their value judgments and just general demeanor about certain things.
What is manipulation? You mean being silent as to get you to feel guilty? Or are they silent because they are genuinely hurt? Depends on the EII and the EII’s morality or moral code
Personally I am silent when I am hurt and if asked what hurts I will have no trouble telling you what that was
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Idk, what you are saying doesn’t sound familiar to me...
I am pretty straightforward; I don’t “act” or attempt to deceive in any way, even small deceptions. If I’m angry, I would pretty straightforward about it. Although I don’t think I’m capable of being “scary” angry, but I can feel angry. I’m not trying to ... be nice in a “subtly manipulative” way or something when I don’t tell someone outright I dislike them. I simply choose not to form a close relational bond with them - which is honest enough. I will never attempt a fake public display of camaraderie when in fact I don’t feel close to the person; because that sort of show means nothing to me. I think my dislike would be implied but clear, basically.
Yeah don't worry. I was just trying to make this thread sound interesting so non-EIIs would participate. I was curious about previous threads I'd read. But it's no biggie and I don't believe that a certain category of people is inherently manipulative. It's all just for fun
EIIs brand of manipulation is more relational (“if you do this, I will sever the relationship” - sometimes implied, sometimes even necessary to keep the Fi suggestives in check)
Interesting, I have conditions like that as well. Sometimes I flat out inform the other person, but most of the time its just better to shut up and see if they cross that line by themselves.
I have a female EII secretary who is recently divorced and who has her sights set on me. I’ve told her that we are semi-duals and would not be a great match, but semi-duals consist of two functions from your Dual and two from your Extinguishment partner.
In our case, the Dual functions are Te/Fi and are used in public. The Ne/Si-Ni/Se functions are about sensing and future plans, and how to do things together. She has only experienced our public Dual interactions, and I have to say, that part of her is pure marriage material. But the private functions (sex and dividing the daily chores) would be a disaster.
In any case, she’s not exactly manipulative in wanting to get a commitment from me. Rather, she’s subtle, plain, and incredibly persistent. She doesn’t state explicitly what she ultimately wants, but she uses the term “date” in conversation with added emphasis.
As for being meekly manipulative, I think the closest she comes to that (she is quite thin and dresses like a secretary in Mad Men) is to stand leaning back slightly with one hand behind her against a table and the other hand holding a plate with a slice of apple pie on it and say, “Here’s a fresh slice of pie. Are you hungry?”
I find this to be quite distracting. I think an Si-valuer would be overwhelmed by it.
The EII and I have known each other for nine years and we like each other. We go to lunch frequently and have had some nice dinners together. She is superb in these settings. Attractive, intelligent, demure, funny, respectable, basically she’s perfect. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that she probably finds me to be the same.
Weirdly enough, I don’t feel a shred of sexual attraction to her. Her appeal is all mental.
I had an LSI Mirage GF with the opposite function arrangement. She had the Se/Ni private functions of a Dual, and the public Ti/Fe-Te/Ni functions of an Extinguishment partner. Hanging around with her, and having sex with her, was the best. And I mean, the best. Absolutely marriage material. And doing planning or trying to operate in a business sphere was just the worst.
The EII has only experienced the positive Dual functions with me. I’ve sometimes wondered if having sex with her would convince her that we two were not meant to be. But that might wreck the relationship, so I have to use reason and examples to convince her.
I had intense mental and emotional attraction with an EII guy. We were great college buddies....spent evenings together multiple nights a week after college classes...we had a small gang of friends (alpha, beta, gamma, and delta--it was a trip), and we would talk and goof off into the wee hours; He ended up being my twice brief boyfriend (he firmly wouldn't just go on dates with me, and after a year of having feelings, we decided to jump; we lasted a week each time we dated and didn't even end up having sex.) I'm confident from the strangely physically unfulfilling makeouts after we were really mentally intimate...that the sex would have been just as disappointing for us as the making out was. I remember at the end of the second time of us being a couple, trying to get my mind into how a delta ST would kiss him. I tried it, and he loved it. I didn't feel genuine or aroused. Was a really weird relationship to leave because you're so insanely attracted mentally and emotionally, and it felt nice to be close to him. Thankfully your bodies are loud to you, or ppl would maybe just put up with semi-duality. I don't recommend this relationship configuration. And I'm glad you're seeing it for the half-compatible thing it is
I think I've seen EII get tight-lipped ragey and/or seem to blame the other person while dramatically pouting. SOMETIMES that feels manipulative to me.
the word 'manipulate' is challenging for me because it can mean to touch with the hands but it can also have coercive connotation. And ...well maybe someone's responses are communicative and not consciously or even objectively manipulative but are still uncomfortable for someone else or are still perceived as coercive.
I've see the problem that one can feel pressured and interpret that as someone applying pressure to oneself and call them manipulative, but that could also be one's own psyche's conditioning toward scenarios.
Also, I suspect susceptibility toward certain behaviors or a sensitivity toward them exists in a patterned way between types of the socion.
Originally Posted by consentingadult
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(as per tcaudilllg)
