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Thread: EII - Manipulative meekness?

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    Lightbulb EII - Manipulative meekness?

    Hello

    I'm here because I have a question on the perception of EIIs. Are they manipulative in a passive, obscure way?

    If you say yes, please explain how and why. I'm used to seeing brief responses to threads on this topic which is a shame since many of the said things were really cool and mind-stimulating.

    Examples (paraphrased & taken out of my memory):
    "EII has an 'angelic' image but deep inside them is unbridled anger."
    "EII can be subtly manipulative."
    "EII can act nice but I wish they would be direct and tell me they dislike me."
    "The neurotic EIIs are not fun to be around." (May not have to do with manipulation but still interesting)

    So what do these things tell you about their personality? Want to talk about the deep-seated anger? I do!

    If you're an EII that feels offended by this thread or its responses, please don't post here. I want the responses to be as honest and open as possible. Thanks.

    Edit: EIIs are very welcome- I just mean I'd rather have this thread be informative than an argument. No exclusion here!
    Last edited by lurker; 08-12-2020 at 07:04 AM.

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    Uncle Ave's Avatar
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    Fi doms, EII and ESI - aeren't manipulative. At least IME.

    Manipulative types are much more likely to be extroverted feelers, I think.


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    I have a female EII secretary who is recently divorced and who has her sights set on me. I’ve told her that we are semi-duals and would not be a great match, but semi-duals consist of two functions from your Dual and two from your Extinguishment partner.
    In our case, the Dual functions are Te/Fi and are used in public. The Ne/Si-Ni/Se functions are about sensing and future plans, and how to do things together. She has only experienced our public Dual interactions, and I have to say, that part of her is pure marriage material. But the private functions (sex and dividing the daily chores) would be a disaster.

    In any case, she’s not exactly manipulative in wanting to get a commitment from me. Rather, she’s subtle, plain, and incredibly persistent. She doesn’t state explicitly what she ultimately wants, but she uses the term “date” in conversation with added emphasis.

    As for being meekly manipulative, I think the closest she comes to that (she is quite thin and dresses like a secretary in Mad Men) is to stand leaning back slightly with one hand behind her against a table and the other hand holding a plate with a slice of apple pie on it and say, “Here’s a fresh slice of pie. Are you hungry?”

    I find this to be quite distracting. I think an Si-valuer would be overwhelmed by it.


    The EII and I have known each other for nine years and we like each other. We go to lunch frequently and have had some nice dinners together. She is superb in these settings. Attractive, intelligent, demure, funny, respectable, basically she’s perfect. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that she probably finds me to be the same.
    Weirdly enough, I don’t feel a shred of sexual attraction to her. Her appeal is all mental.

    I had an LSI Mirage GF with the opposite function arrangement. She had the Se/Ni private functions of a Dual, and the public Ti/Fe-Te/Ni functions of an Extinguishment partner. Hanging around with her, and having sex with her, was the best. And I mean, the best. Absolutely marriage material. And doing planning or trying to operate in a business sphere was just the worst.

    The EII has only experienced the positive Dual functions with me. I’ve sometimes wondered if having sex with her would convince her that we two were not meant to be. But that might wreck the relationship, so I have to use reason and examples to convince her.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 08-11-2020 at 12:29 PM.

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    In the sense of passive aggressiveness, yes but deliberate attempts at manipulation is usually not their primary MO.

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    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    As always, there are healthy and unhealthy variants of all types, and EIIs are no exception.

    The manipulation in a passive, covert way in unhealthy EIIs (as well as unhealthy ESIs), is in their Self-sacrificing nature. Self-sacroficing, as a pathological concept, is described as:

    Excessive focus on voluntarily meeting the needs of others in daily situations, at the expense of one's own gratification. The most common reasons are: to prevent causing pain to others; to avoid guilt from feeling selfish; or to maintain the connection with others perceived as needy . Often results from an acute sensitivity to the pain of others. Sometimes leads to a sense that one's own needs are not being adequately met and to resentment of those who are taken care of. (Overlaps with concept of codependency.)
    (source: http://schematherapy.com/id73.htm)

    So, often with unhealthy EIIs, there is this hidden agenda (not in the Socionics sense) of expecting something in return for all they do for other people, which is typically quite a lot, since EIIs have an antenna for the distress of other people and and inclination for addressing this distress out of their own initiative. This 'return favor' can be both of a material or immaterial nature, e.g. recognition of their moral superiority or extensive gratitude of some sort. Typically, many EIIs do not ask for their favors being returned, expecting people to do so out of their own initiative, but often that doesn't happen, leading to grudges and ultimately to the EII refusing do do something for you at all, giving you the cold treatment, which is experienced as passive/aggressiveness by their interlocutors.

    ETA: Young's understanding about Self-sacrificing are close to those of John Oldham:

    http://www.geocities.ws/lifexplore/oldham.htm#SAC

    I must note, however, that I do not agree to matching this personality style to those of MBTI ESFJs and ENFJs (which was not Oldham's conclusion btw), for typically these two types do not lack Se in one mode or another.
    Last edited by consentingadult; 08-11-2020 at 02:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    “Here’s a fresh slice of pie. Are you hungry?”
    Be careful with accepting that piece of pie, it's a trap. She'll expect you to propose to her in return. Which you don't realize of course, after which she will conclude that all men are alike.... ;-)
    I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that. --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    As always, there are healthy and unhealthy variants of all types, and EIIs are no exception.

    The manipulation in a passive, covert way in unhealthy EIIs (as well as unhealthy ESIs), is in their Self-sacrificing nature. Self-sacrificing, as a pathological concept, is described as:

    (source: http://schematherapy.com/id73.htm)
    That was an interesting article! Good description of so many dysfunctions. It is a sad, sad world, so much dysfunction all around; pretty much none of us are untouched.

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    So, often with unhealthy EIIs, there is this hidden agenda (not in the Socionics sense) of expecting something in return for all they do for other people, which is typically quite a lot, since EIIs have an antenna for the distress of other people and and inclination for addressing this distress out of their own initiative. This 'return favor' can be both of a material or immaterial nature, e.g. recognition of their moral superiority or extensive gratitude of some sort. Typically, many EIIs do not ask for their favors being returned, expecting people to do so out of their own initiative, but often that doesn't happen, leading to grudges and ultimately to the EII refusing do do something for you at all, giving you the cold treatment, which is experienced as passive/aggressiveness by their interlocutors.
    I kind of agree with this. The EIIs I know are pretty healthy and functional, but they sure do cut people off who have let them down or not shown proper appreciation. I think it is about self-preservation (which is would be unhealthy to NOT have) because the ones they keep in their close circle are the ones they will go out of the way, above and beyond for. If you can't appreciate that in them, then you are kicked out of their circle so they can concentrate their care and concern on those that deserve to be in it. (Yes, the "return favor' doesn't need to be material, just needs to be some kind of appreciation or recognition of the good the generously provided).

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    ETA: Young's understanding about Self-sacrificing are close to those of John Oldham:

    http://www.geocities.ws/lifexplore/oldham.htm#SAC


    I must note, however, that I do not agree to matching this personality style to those of MBTI ESFJs and ENFJs (which was not Oldham's conclusion btw), for typically these two types do not lack Se in one mode or another.
    Hmm, there was some interesting ideas in there, but I am not appreciating Odham's work so much. Socionics descriptions of IEE as well as other MBTI descriptions of ENFP are so much better. Some of these divisions don't reflect what I have seen in these types IRL, whereas Socionics type descriptions and function descriptions ALWAYS do. I saw myself in so many of Odhams OTHER attributes for OTHER types (none fully of course whereas his placement of ENFP is thr worst I have seen anywhere I think. If Odham's work is important to you, this might explain why you self-type ENFP, which doesn't seem a match to me. You certainly do not seem to me to fit into any of the personality or function descriptions of Socionic IEE. Do you take issue with Socionic descriptions of IEE?

    I am risking offending you by telling you I question your type. Hopefully I am not, because it's not news to you, and you already know I sort of question it.

    Gotta run. No time to check typos...
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Actually, Oldham's work is not that important, but we must realize he is one of the pioneers in the field of Personality Psychology, like Theodore Millon.

    I agree IEEs are not well represented in Oldham's model. They were also not well represented in Millon's concepts, until he introduced a new type of personality in the few years before his death: the Ebulient-Exuberant-Turbulent personality spectrum. It's a proposed personality spectrum (with Turbulent being the Personality Disorder), but since it is such a new concept, is has not been widely published and discussed yet. It is, in a way, a reframing of Cyclothymic and/or Hypomanic Mood Disorders:

    https://www.millonpersonality.com/th.../turbulent.htm

    There is, of course, no one-on-one transposing of personality spectrums to Socionic types, but definitively certain personality spectrums are more common to certain Socionic types, such as Borderline, which is most common to the EP temperament.

    My current personality is more a matter of years of psychotherapy and a daily battle against my natural neurotic inclinations, and I am increasingly becoming better at controlling my behaviors and emotions. You could assign any type to me, and I would still be an untypical representative of that type. The Turbulent personality described above, that was me... fifteen years ago....
    Last edited by consentingadult; 08-11-2020 at 04:22 PM.
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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Adam, don't try it. A natural women's nature (in the natural state, which it is not always in, but it's always there somehow) will make her MUCH more attached with intimacy. It can lock it in place. And EII can already hang onto an impossible romance WAY too long, against all odds, long-suffering to the highest degree. So you will risk making her MORE attached, and then truly, truly scorned if you reject her generous offer of self after that. (And she can't get away from you when she goes to work!) A women scorned... it can be frightening.

    Meanwhile it will be tough to resist temptation until she gives up; she has confidence in her powers of attraction/seduction, and once she her eye on a target she can be in it for a VERY devout long haul, waiting, waiting...

    Keep you eye on the mark! You know what you want/need/have to offer, so don't forget it. If you allow this side track it may (because of what I described above) become way too consuming to deal with, and you will wish you could be fully back on track to what you knew you wanted all along.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Adam, don't try it. A natural women's nature (in the natural state, which it is not always in, but it's always there somehow) will make her MUCH more attached with intimacy. It can lock it in place. And EII can already hang onto an impossible romance WAY too long, against all odds, long-suffering to the highest degree. So you will risk making her MORE attached, and then truly, truly scorned if you reject her generous offer of self after that. (And she can't get away from you when she goes to work!) A women scorned... it can be frightening.

    Meanwhile it will be tough to resist temptation until she gives up; she has confidence in her powers of attraction/seduction, and once she her eye on a target she can be in it for a VERY devout long haul, waiting, waiting...

    Keep you eye on the mark! You know what you want/need/have to offer, so don't forget it. If you allow this side track it may (because of what I described above) become way too consuming to deal with, and you will wish you could be fully back on track to what you knew you wanted all along.
    Thanks, Eliza. That was very helpful. I kind of didn’t take into account the possibility that she might get MORE committed.

    I appreciate your insight here.

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    Uncle Ave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    A natural women's nature (in the natural state, which it is not always in, but it's always there somehow)
    What does this mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    will make her MUCH more attached with intimacy.
    That's not just women. Men can be this way too.

    And not all women are this way, either, as per my experience.

    You musn't assume that just because you are a certain way, or idealize certain gender roles, that it is actually what others need deep down.

    Not commenting on the Adam Strange thing, just saying.


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    There are a lot of really forward EIIs out there who are extremely self-confident. They don't need to be meek or manipulative.

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    Thank you everyone so far for the contributions. I was bracing myself for really harsh posts but these are really nice. I will absorb all the info and might come back with questions later

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    My ex was EII. I don't feel she was manipulative, but it was sometimes hard to say what her real, personal attitude was. She could show a lot of interest in me, or things I talked about. She could also give me small hints about something, without saying it straight to my face.
    The Fi also gives the impression that there is something "secret" going on inside.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    Ime, EII don't manipulate by being meek; when they are, it's part of their character and there is no "string attached". However, I think they can be too conflict avoiding and impractical(Se Polr), which makes them silence their dissatisfaction and ultimately act passive-aggressively (guilt tripping, silent treatment, sarcastic remarks, sulking,...). It goes like this:

    1. EII takes an engagement(work, family life, couple, school project...) too seriously, overworks and burns out
    2. EII notices that other people work less than him (have a more healthy relationship to their engagement) and starts to think that he is entitled to a "better treatment"(instead of realising that he might have overshot the target)
    3a. EII starts to complain that other people are 'slackers' to any nearby Te ego (but is passive agressive with the people concerned, which doesn't solve anything and makes EII just mull things over and get bitter)
    or
    3b. EII stubbornly asks that people adopt inappropriate standards, people feel pressured and start to dislike EII(go back to step 3a)

    Notice that the cycle can be broken by a Te ego who will help them see how much their contribution is "worth".
    Only there occasionally

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    Quote Originally Posted by lurker View Post
    "EII has an 'angelic' image but deep inside them is unbridled anger."
    It's not a general state, but situations which are only more often with Fi than other types.

    All F types better than T ones control emotions which they show to give the impression they want.
    Also. Fi types value emotional comfort, so they are more polite than Fe or T types and hence lesser show negative emotions to others when they have it. In conflicts they more often than Fe types prefer to reduce communications and supress emotions to be colder, but not to bark rudely. It needs more so they'd behaved rudely. They prefer indirect criticism to explain and not to hurt. May for longer to avoid open criticism (what can be a problem as not all understand that they dislike something).
    It's about average predisposition in a comparision with other types, as some people with Fi types may be more rude by nontypes reasons as a personal culture, psyche stability, IQ, etc.

    > "EII can be subtly manipulative."

    In general positive sense. F - more complicatedl approach to people. N - gives better imagination for ways to achive something. I - makes lesser expressed externally. INFP should be close

    > "EII can act nice but I wish they would be direct and tell me they dislike me."

    It's opposite wishes. Generally, it's possibly to notice when they become emotionally colder or reduce communications.

    > "The neurotic EIIs are not fun to be around."

    not types specific

    You've asked about what is covered by common theory. I recommend to read books (Jung, Filatova and other texts). Then to type people near you to understand better the theory. This will give the basis to discuss types.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    All types are capable of using manipulation, half-truths, outright lies and physical threats to get what they want - some of every type are better than others. The only differences among the types is the ways they go about manipulation, and they need certain tools to do whatever. However, the need to employ such tactics has more to do with personal baggage and or perceived threats to them than it does type.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    So far I have experienced only 'positive' manipulation from ExIs in my life, neutral (in their interest and meh to me) at worst. Nothing that would be directed to harm me per se so far.

    I did witness EIIs asking 'okay, but do you think I am bad for doing/not doing xyz?' and that made me lol each time, as they obviously weren't bad at all. They could torment themselves for literally 'no-problems' sometimes (in my eyes at least; and those problems seem to be often linked to their PoLR Se and how much they don't want to use it).

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    ...
    The Fi also gives the impression that there is something "secret" going on inside.
    because there is a secret going on inside...
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    The Fi also gives the impression that there is something "secret" going on inside.
    The secret is that they know your secrets, or so they think:

    https://mavericksocionics.blogspot.c...fi-and-fe.html

    Scroll down to "The facade Fi can put up"
    I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that. --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Actually, Oldham's work is not that important, but we must realize he is one of the pioneers in the field of Personality Psychology, like Theodore Millon.
    Both these names are new to me. I'm not so inspired now to look into Oldham, as its the FIRST time I read ENFp descriptions I have found so little to be in agreement with. (Perhaps all MBTI descriptions of ENFP fall short to one degree or another, while Socionics ones don't, particularly in regards to Model A, Intertype Relations and Renins). Oldham just seems farther from the mark than usual, and not just about ENFP, but others, very much, too (while a few seem okay, or even spot-on, like ENFJ).

    But Millon looks like a force to be reckoned with! Considered himself a "secure narcissist" - wow, I have extensively studied Narcissism and that is a new term/paradigm for me. And an interesting one, and seems apt for him. I found his biography impressive - and his obituary -the fact that he was a well-loved family man for his entire life puts him right into "not-just-clever, probably legit" category for me, right off. And he has quite the list of credentials and professional experience as well as a sizable possy of decent-looking psychologists/psychiatrists committed to following in his professional footsteps... It all looks good. He comes from a very devout Jewish family of origin.


    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    I agree IEEs are not well represented in Oldham's model. They were also not well represented in Millon's concepts, until he introduced a new type of personality in the few years before his death: the Ebulient-Exuberant-Turbulent personality spectrum. It's a proposed personality spectrum (with Turbulent being the Personality Disorder), but since it is such a new concept, is has not been widely published and discussed yet. It is, in a way, a reframing of Cyclothymic and/or Hypomanic Mood Disorders:

    https://www.millonpersonality.com/th.../turbulent.htm


    There is, of course, no one-on-one transposing of personality spectrums to Socionic types, but definitively certain personality spectrums are more common to certain Socionic types, such as Borderline, which is most common to the EP temperament.
    So "turbulent" was his 15th? Or did he make a 16th? isn't it odd that he came up with 15, when it seems there ought to be 16. Yes, I can see why they would not all correspond to type anyway. My ESE ex was a narcissist, but he had all the classic things happen in his life at a young age to put him there. Fortunately, though both parents had their own dysfunctions, they were as loving as they were able to be as parents, and I believe it was that that kept him from being pathological. But I see other members of his family that have some forms of narcissism, but are different personality types.

    I can't take the time right now, though I am interested, in telling what of the two categories don't make sense for describing an ENFP*. Just one example (I would have examples from both) under "Mercurial" in Odham, it says "Extraverted Feeling". Well, we are Fi based, not Fe. So this statement: "They show what they feel. They are emotionally active and reactive" doesn't fit so well. While I do feel things a lot, and strongly, I don't very often do not understand my own feelings (I ahve noticed that EII, FiNe vs. NeFi, is much better at this than me), and I always endeavor to not react as well as hide my feelings (though I have a face that betrays me often) because I want to keep that feeling to myself, and get alone with it, and contemplate it beforeIi share it or act on it. I am very careful about not reacting with the feeling when I get it, because I have learned from a very young age I can be regretful if I do. I have learned to seek to understand it and then choose a course of action after thinking through all the possibilities and ramifications, the justice and morality of it. And that can take some time, but often results in a permanent change in me. (I also notice that ESFps are much better at recognizing, owning and accepting and immediately acting on their feelings, as soon as they have them than ENFps).

    That might be interesting to you, as an ENFp, but I think you don't seem to be that, and may not be interested. Yes, Odhams description, mercurial, probably fits "turbulent" very well, but as you say, it's is not meant to match to type. Probably many types could be "turbultent" types, because, like narcissism, it is based in common early wounds, rather than type (as you say).


    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    My current personality is more a matter of years of psychotherapy and a daily battle against my natural neurotic inclinations, and I am increasingly becoming better at controlling my behaviors and emotions. You could assign any type to me, and I would still be an untypical representative of that type. The Turbulent personality described above, that was me... fifteen years ago....
    Wow, CA, I did not know you went through this. Years. It must have been worthy therapy to have stuck with it. So you can truly be one to say if Millon's work is worthwhile and on target. I remember reading up on types of therapy, and thinking that CBT was a sensible way to go. Does it use that? It sure is not easy to have a constant daily battle with impulses. I pray that some day you can be completely free of that.


    ___________________________________

    *[also, I must say, I am not agreeing with Odham's "sexual" label for ENFP. [although I do seek 1:1 intimacy with interlocutors]. When I was young for a time I dated much and flirted much, I think based in a need to assure myself of my lovableness , so I sought to win hearts. That was fun while it lasted, but it was a short-lived period, as I soon saw that this inflicts pain, and it is clearly wrong to mess with people's hearts and hopes. So for the bulk of my adult life that does not describe me, same with other ENFps I know, while I can see many of other types that you would call sexual. But it is many types, who each must have their own inner motivations to choose this route. Plus, especially around some Betas and people who are overt about their sexual preferences and feelings, I have an involuntary prudish cringe I try to hide that some people relate to Delta. I just think this is all for the private realm, and so often, it's TMI...though, it's related to my judgement on the culture].
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    What does this mean?



    That's not just women. Men can be this way too.

    And not all women are this way, either, as per my experience.

    You musn't assume that just because you are a certain way, or idealize certain gender roles, that it is actually what others need deep down.

    ...just saying.
    Yes, men can.

    Uncle, I can ask you, what do you mean? Do you think there are no fundamental differences between men and women? Do you think a person born man or born women does not possess innate gender characteristics? And if you think there are distinctions, do you think gender distinctions can be erased with enculturation, castigation, hormone injections, or other? Just wondering.
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 08-11-2020 at 11:03 PM.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    The secret is that they know your secrets, or so they think:

    https://mavericksocionics.blogspot.c...fi-and-fe.html

    Scroll down to "The facade Fi can put up"
    Wow, excellent article! I printed it for my file (and I have just dumped 3/4's of my paper files, files I kept and organized for years, so, that was a big move. Yes, that part you mentioned, to the end, is Fi, for sure. yes, Fe seems less complicated and less deep. When I am around Beta or Alpha, I feel its best to lighten up and not look too deeply into a thing.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by lurker View Post
    Hello

    I'm here because I have a question on the perception of EIIs. Are they manipulative in a passive, obscure way?

    If you say yes, please explain how and why. I'm used to seeing brief responses to threads on this topic which is a shame since many of the said things were really cool and mind-stimulating.

    Examples (paraphrased & taken out of my memory):
    I promise you I am actively fighting off the offended feelings lol.

    "EII has an 'angelic' image but deep inside them is unbridled anger."
    WTH YOU MEAN ANGELIC?!....*ahem*

    Not sure if this is a meant to be a permanent state. I do know that when I am angry inside I try my darndest not to let it show, unless I believe showing it will stop whatever is angering me instead of just fuel it. I mostly try not to let it show because I don't like letting people know what gets to me, because they can use it later as a weapon against me.


    "EII can be subtly manipulative."
    The kind of manipulation I use that is subtle is I try to build rapport with people to get favorable treatment from them. I try and create a warm friendly familiar feel so they can either go easier on me and treat me like a friend, pick me out of a group for whatever it is I want to be picked for, or whatever. One time I won a raffle because I folded my ticket into a small paper plane, it's the same kind of mentality, try and be different from the rest. Sometimes I even try to manipulate people to not see what I don't want them to see, I'll somtimes try and appear like I'm in a better mood than I am because people don't like to be around a downer. This doesn't always work thought because before the day or week or month is over I'm too exhausted to hide it anymore and people who are used to the facade get confused.

    If my back is super against the wall that's when I can tap into Fe and just say whatever I know will get me out of the situation.

    "EII can act nice but I wish they would be direct and tell me they dislike me."

    OK NOW THIS IS OFFENSIVE!
    lol no.

    Ok I'll admit first time I read that I was like wth man. But let me explain.

    I can appear like I'm all open minded and maybe even agree with what someone's saying that's totally against what I think but inside I'm like "This person is a moron." lol That is definetely true. But I feel no need to state my opinion because I opt to just endure whatever the person is saying since it's easier than an arguement and it will last fo less time than one. Plus I doubt I'll change their mind. That's for people who I disagree with not dislike.

    For people I dislike, especially friends. Most of the time I just opt to not speak to them or cut them off instead of saying "I don't like you." that seems kinda weird for me to say unless I'm asked. To go straight up to someone and say "Hey, you, I hate your guts." But I have had like 2 friends I have had to say that to because they didn't seem to get it, I had to tell them they annoy me and I can't stand being around them half the time, but that' was out of exhaustion instead of just wanting to be upfront with my general attitude. Or I'll just give a friend the silent treatment, when what they did to me is so obvious I don't even have to point out why it would make someone mad, they know and I know what they did was wrong. But even before this measure I usually give out a warning and show my anger with what they did.

    I attended a karate dojo once, for like 4 months, here's an example of subtle manipulation too, I met the sensei at a cafe, he was a dual so we hit it off immediately. He let me join his dojo for free, and I agreed to help clean the place in order to keep attending for free for a couple months, I was always extra nice and rapport building to make sure he never got frustrated with me and start charging me to train. But I did genuinely like the guy, and we ended up becoming good friends. Also I was like the only person taking his adult class so I ended up being one of his example students. But the more I did karate the more boring and useless I found it, my expectations when I started were that I would be learning practical self defense skills but I ended up just learning traditional choreography and doing repetitive drills. After 4 months I got bored, but I did not have the heart to tell my sensei "Hey, this is boring, I quit." So I just ghosted and never showed up to the dojo again one day. It's still awkward when I run into the sensei at the cafe from time to time. I still like the guy, but he has no idea why I quit and that probably bugs him because he was starting to count on me and include me in future plans.




    "The neurotic EIIs are not fun to be around." (May not have to do with manipulation but still interesting)
    Idk about neurotic but I can attest to this, I got no Se, hence no life. Once in a blue moon my charisma is on 10 but most days I'm boring af.


    So what do these things tell you about their personality? Want to talk about the deep-seated anger? I do!
    My deep seated anger is mostly from past memories where I felt like I should have told someone off for what they did or stood up for myself. Every once in awhile I feel some Se rage towards some past memory but I end up twitching and gotta shake it off because it's useless to be so mad about a past event. I swear if I had one wish it would be to own a time machine to beat up your highschool bully, ask out your crush, and invest in Amazon.

    If you're an EII that feels offended by this thread or its responses, please don't post here. I want the responses to be as honest and open as possible. Thanks.
    I tried my darndest.
    Last edited by Lord Pixel; 08-12-2020 at 07:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    My ex was EII. I don't feel she was manipulative, but it was sometimes hard to say what her real, personal attitude was. She could show a lot of interest in me, or things I talked about. She could also give me small hints about something, without saying it straight to my face.
    The Fi also gives the impression that there is something "secret" going on inside.
    ROFL. EII: "I want to listen"... then I throw abstract logic at them full of symbols and they get shocked "if a produces b then c effects etc". Also the contrary I have a very short statement to say and they assume I talk in detail.

    But they can manipulate it is very subtle and many do not pick it up. Ne way of doing the parallel to a person which is unlike ESI who probably launch bunch submit to me tactics.
    Measuring you right now

    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    Fi doms, EII and ESI - aeren't manipulative. At least IME.

    Manipulative types are much more likely to be extroverted feelers, I think.
    Aye, right, I'm really manipulative, even with my SLI best friend when i'm not realizing i think?, but it's for her good sake. I don't do it out of malice.

    But i have done it to random people when I wanna get to some goal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Yes, men can.

    Uncle, I can ask you, what do you mean? Do you think there are no fundamental differences between men and women? Do you think a person born man or born women does not possess innate gender characteristics? And if you think there are distinctions, do you think gender distinctions can be erased with enculturation, castigation, hormone injections, or other? Just wondering.
    I'm not sure. I think gender differences are not as fundamental as people think in traditonal societies. Most of the behaviors we see as "masculine" are explained by the presence of testosterone, while most of the behaviors we see as "feminine" are explained by the presence of estrogen. So the differences between individuals of two different genders are there, but there are also many differences between two people of the same sex, which we cannot explain through hormones and which makes it hard to say "well women are this way in this or that situation" or "men are like this but not like that".

    I suppose the problem I have with how traditonal values pin roles on men and women has more to do with the fact these roles sounds more like "ought" than "is/are" statements. When I hear people talk about traditional roles (I live in Western Europe so trad gender roles are particularly strong - but I have friends from Africa and they cling to this stuff very strongly) it seems they simply speak of the way things "should" be in order to uphold order in the family unit and thus order in society. For example, my SEE friend from West Africa says things like "you need a father figure in the family to be able to lead at the top like in a hierarchy or else everything falls apart". It's not about understanding human nature or the human psyche - it's about imposing an external model on people.

    What is worse is that they often present this role they are imposing as "your nature", as if they know you better than you do.


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    I’ve had various EII friends and acquaintances before and have also dated an EII male for 2 years.

    I think it’s normal for them to try to coerce others a little at times by using guilt-inducing meekness or passive-aggression and they just happen to be better than average at it. I don’t think they do it more than other types would if other types were actually somewhat good at it lol (or at least when it comes to being effective towards certain types like Delta STs). At normal to good health they are mostly just sweet and benign and kind of trolly. They are a basically detached person who needs to connect with others through Fi and Si.

    In terms of really manipulative toxic behaviors, only when they are really unhealthy IME and it’s still typically either fairly benign stuff or not really conscious I think in those cases. I do think the Se polr creates a pressure cooker for shit to build up and later explode in many cases (I also have this with my Fi polr). It’s like they don’t understand what normal limits are for Se and a lot of issues can build up in their unconscious demonstrative Ni, like they feel uncomfortable around others or take in a lot of psychic pressure a lot of the time or something, and don’t really deal with their problems until it blows up. If you want me to be more specific with my experiences, PM only.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    > "The neurotic EIIs are not fun to be around."

    not types specific
    Well you could make it type specific if you choose to talk about EIIs who are neurotic

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    I tried my darndest.
    Don't worry, you are very welcome here. I enjoyed reading your post and it made me smile. Thank you for it

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    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Both these names are new to me. I'm not so inspired now to look into Oldham, as its the FIRST time I read ENFp descriptions I have found so little to be in agreement with. (Perhaps all MBTI descriptions of ENFP fall short to one degree or another, while Socionics ones don't, particularly in regards to Model A, Intertype Relations and Renins). Oldham just seems farther from the mark than usual, and not just about ENFP, but others, very much, too (while a few seem okay, or even spot-on, like ENFJ).
    This is a misunderstanding: Oldham himself never compared his personality types to either MBTI or Socionic types, other people did that, making up their own constructs in the process, which is dangerous, because such constructs aren't validated in any way. It is common error of people to believe pages such as lifexplore on Geocities is an accurate representation of ideas. There are relationships between models of personality psychology and Jungian models, but they are not 1:1 translatable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    So "turbulent" was his 15th? Or did he make a 16th? isn't it odd that he came up with 15, when it seems there ought to be 16. Yes, I can see why they would not all correspond to type anyway.
    No, because Millon's models is looking at personality psychology from another perspective than Socionics or MBTI. Also, we should not consider Millon's model, with it's 15 personality spectrums and many more subtypes, as a model that describes different types of personality accurately and definitively, but as an heuristic device of Ideal Types with which we can measure real people and come to insights about their personalities by seeing how well they compare to the Ideal Types. In the real world, their is no person that very neatly fits e.g. Millon's EETurb spectrum. Whereas in Socionics, you are one type only, and thus not any of the other 15 types, Neither can you be, say, 90% IEE and 10% EII. Socionic types are discrete, personalities and personality disorders are not.

    It is for this reason than many personality psychologists say that discrete models such as those of Oldham, Millon or the DSM, are not very effective in describing personality pathology of individual people, because nobody really fits such discrete models anyway. E.g. Jeffrey Young has developed Schema Therapy, a model of modules of pathological behaviors and their causes. Any person can have any combination of such modules (called Maldaptive Schemas), while at the same time we can conclude that certain modules are always a common factor in specific personality disorders. E.g. Young's Abandonment Schema is always a part of Borderline PD in his understanding of that disorder, and the experienced reader can see that many of the characteristics of that schema are in fact a different way of phrasing of what is happening in Millon's UBCycloph spectrum. But there is no 1:1 relationship to Socioni types. although there are relationships: types with the EP temperament are more prone to e.g. Borderline, Trubulent and certain variants of Narcissistic PD's than Schzoid PD. You will not easily see BPD in an ILI, who is more prone to Schizoid or Masochistic PDs, the latter being explained by Young as the Subjugation Schema. Pathological masochistic tendencies do also exist in ESIs and EIIs, but then we speak of Self-Sacrificing schema, which is substantially different from the Subjugation schema.

    Also note that e.g. the model of Personality Disorders in the DSM is not there to accurately describe personality pathology, it is there because your insurance company wants an easy to understand label before the are willing to pay for treatment.
    Last edited by consentingadult; 08-12-2020 at 10:11 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    As for being meekly manipulative, I think the closest she comes to that (she is quite thin and dresses like a secretary in Mad Men) is to stand leaning back slightly with one hand behind her against a table and the other hand holding a plate with a slice of apple pie on it and say, Heres a fresh slice of pie. Are you hungry?

    I find this to be quite distracting. I think an Si-valuer would be overwhelmed by it.


    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    The manipulation in a passive, covert way in unhealthy EIIs (as well as unhealthy ESIs), is in their Self-sacrificing nature.
    This was more helpful to me than you can imagine. Thank you for putting a name on itI know now that I suffer from self-sacrificing misery. How do you get rid of the guilt and self-loathing?

    Approval-seeking: One's sense of esteem is dependent primarily on the reactions of others rather than on one's own natural inclinations.

    ^ This is also true of me. Im thinking that if I could get myself to base my self esteem on my own natural inclinations, the self-sacrificing would stop. How do I do that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    I did witness EIIs asking 'okay, but do you think I am bad for doing/not doing xyz?' and that made me lol each time, as they obviously weren't bad at all. They could torment themselves for literally 'no-problems' sometimes (in my eyes at least; and those problems seem to be often linked to their PoLR Se and how much they don't want to use it).
    Could you give examples of what the EIIs thought made them bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by COVID 007 View Post
    ROFL. EII: "I want to listen"... then I throw abstract logic at them full of symbols and they get shocked "if a produces b then c effects etc". Also the contrary I have a very short statement to say and they assume I talk in detail.

    But they can manipulate it is very subtle and many do not pick it up. Ne way of doing the parallel to a person which is unlike ESI who probably launch bunch submit to me tactics.
    Sorry I dont understand. What shocks the EII? And why do they assume you talk in detail if you have a short statement to say? Also, what do you mean about the Ne parallel thing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lurker View Post



    Sorry I don’t understand. What shocks the EII? And why do they assume you talk in detail if you have a short statement to say? Also, what do you mean about the Ne parallel thing?
    Yes, typical Ej mindset is to speak everything they can while they need Ij's to assemble them together.
    Parallel action means to make someone do something by not seemingly saying so [reverse psychology is probably too simple term here] but it still launches the action what they wanted.
    Measuring you right now

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    Quote Originally Posted by lurker View Post
    This was more helpful to me than you can imagine. Thank you for putting a name on it—I know now that I suffer from self-sacrificing misery. How do you get rid of the guilt and self-loathing?
    That depends on how serious your problem is, I can't tell from this distance. It might be as easy as allowing yourself to grow out of it, or getting some serious therapy. If your interested at a serious but low threshold entrance into better understanding your issue and if you need help, get the book "Reinventing Your Life" by Jefrrey E. Young. I have read gazillions of self-help books, and this is the only book I know of that does not only explain how situation A is bad and situation B is healthy, it details the steps how to actually get from A to B, whereas most self-help books just recommend that you should do B instead of A, which is easier said than done. If you find your problems are need a more serious intervention than just that book, you can always seek help with therapy, e.g. Schema Therapy, on which that book is based. Schema Therapy is now also offered in groups sessions and just as effective, and it's cheaper than individual therapy.

    Some people might recommend Assertivity training, but that won't resolve the underlying causes, but only the symptoms, and only to a limited extent.
    I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that. --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Quote Originally Posted by lurker View Post
    This was more helpful to me than you can imagine. Thank you for putting a name on it—I know now that I suffer from self-sacrificing misery. How do you get rid of the guilt and self-loathing?
    That depends on how serious your problem is, I can't tell from this distance. It might be as easy as allowing yourself to grow out of it, or getting some serious therapy. If your interested at a serious but low threshold entrance into better understanding your issue and if you need help, get the book "Reinventing Your Life" by Jefrrey E. Young. I have read gazillions of self-help books, and this is the only book I know of that does not only explain how situation A is bad and situation B is healthy, it details the steps how to actually get from A to B, whereas most self-help books just recommend that you should do B instead of A, which is easier said than done. It's a great book, but do not expect a quick fix. Expect the contrary.
    I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that. --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Wow, CA, I did not know you went through this. Years. It must have been worthy therapy to have stuck with it. So you can truly be one to say if Millon's work is worthwhile and on target. I remember reading up on types of therapy, and thinking that CBT was a sensible way to go. Does it use that? It sure is not easy to have a constant daily battle with impulses. I pray that some day you can be completely free of that.
    I did a year of psychoanalytic psychotherapy, which was a good start, then moved to a therapist whose standard approach was CBT. I also learned a lot from Schema Therapy from books. At the time there were hardly any therapists in my country that offered this therapy, so I had to do that part all by myself.

    My problems were not about impulsivity, my problems were about wanting too much at the same time, and actually making all that happen, but at the expense of my emotional needs and stability. Think Jeff Bozos or Elon Musk, only not as bad as those two.
    I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that. --- Pippi Longstocking

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    lkdhf qkb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lurker View Post
    Thank you for putting a name on it—I know now that I suffer from self-sacrificing misery. How do you get rid of the guilt and self-loathing?
    This actually sounds more like enneagram 9 problems than EII ones. The most common tips for 9s are: Try to work on your self-esteem, until you can sense that your contribution to the world is wanted and appreciated. Maybe make a list of things you wish for yourself, things you're worthy of. Achieve them.

    Se skills that could help you are : learn to say no when you don't want something, try to be more present and engaged with the world, get to know your physical strength because you have more than you imagine
    Only there occasionally

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    f.k.a Oprah sbbds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    This actually sounds more like enneagram 9 problems than EII ones. The most common tips for 9s are: Try to work on your self-esteem, until you can sense that your contribution to the world is wanted and appreciated. Maybe make a list of things you wish for yourself, things you're worthy of. Achieve them.

    Se skills that could help you are : learn to say no when you don't want something, try to be more present and engaged with the world, get to know your physical strength because you have more than you imagine
    No, it’s Enneagram 2

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    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    This actually sounds more like enneagram 9 problems than EII ones. The most common tips for 9s are: Try to work on your self-esteem, until you can sense that your contribution to the world is wanted and appreciated. Maybe make a list of things you wish for yourself, things you're worthy of. Achieve them.

    Se skills that could help you are : learn to say no when you don't want something, try to be more present and engaged with the world, get to know your physical strength because you have more than you imagine
    This is very much what I said about the average self-help book: they tell you what the problem is, they tell you what behavior produces better results, but they don't tell you how you go about acquiring those new skills, making such books totally useless.
    I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that. --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    No, it’s Enneagram 2
    I think I know where you're coming from, but I still think 9. 2s are often proud to intervene in the lives of others and put others needs before their own. They'll post stuff like "why is my love never reciprocated?!". 9s back down and never say no because they feel threatened and want peace, and end up making too many concessions and "loosing themselves".
    Only there occasionally

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    This is very much what I said about the average self-help book: they tell you what the problem is, they tell you what behavior produces better results, but they don't tell you how you go about acquiring those new skills, making such books totally useless.
    I get what you mean. I think the reason for this is that self-help books have to address a broad population, and a method that might work on you won't on your neighbour, so they keep it general; if you want something custom-fitted, you'll have to do therapy.

    In the end, it's self-help, so you'll have to put some effort into experimenting and finding out for yourself what works and what not. I prefer that and would be very uncorfortable with a guru who has a clear method. Lol, "sing Ohmm three times and you'll find nirvana"! Where's the purpose of self-development, if you're not willing to go your own path? That's most of the fun anyway
    Only there occasionally

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