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Thread: Art - Drawing / Painting. Nature vs Nurture

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    Default Art - Drawing / Painting. Nature vs Nurture

    So my ILE friend is reading a book at the moment and the premise is that inborn talent is mostly a myth. I think there is some truth to this but it lead me to wonder how much is type related. I didn't want to argue with him because its quite a beneficial thought to think you can do anything if you work hard enough.

    After thinking about some skills i could try to improve I thought about drawing. I am absolutely woeful at drawing. I used to actually refuse to play pictionary when my friends played. If you asked me right now to draw the outline of a basic horse it would probably end up looking more like a dog or some abomination in between. I know an SEI, who living up to his typecast could draw from a young age. I don't think hes drawn in years but i have no doubt he could have been very good if he wanted. I've also met some ISTp's/ESTj's that don't seem too bad at drawing either. I wondered if Si was related to this type of artistic ability, and to what extent this could be learnt? Does Si lead people to pay more attention to details, shapes? Or is it a matter of preference? Perhaps for some reason more SEI kids are taken by drawing and that explains the skill? I know IEI types are also regarded as highly artistic too, but in what way? Are some types better at drawing abstract art, ultra realistic art etc? Or is this all rubbish and its not type related at all?

    I started watching this guy



    (JAZZA) and I'm really in awe of people who can effortlessly draw. Bonus points if you know his type, i'm not quite sure but i like him.
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    So my ILE friend is reading a book at the moment and the premise is that inborn talent is mostly a myth. I think there is some truth to this but it lead me to wonder how much is type related. I didn't want to argue with him because its quite a beneficial thought to think you can do anything if you work hard enough.
    Some things can be learned, others are inborn. Type matters a lot in many fields.

    I wondered if Si was related to this type of artistic ability, and to what extent this could be learnt?
    It's related, but not much more. If you are good at drawing, then being Si can help you being even better. There are lots of SEIs who are not artistic at all.

    ]Does Si lead people to pay more attention to details, shapes?
    No, it's the opposite. Si abstracts the outer sensing experience and focuses only on the inner impression. Like a fuzzy shadow of the object. In art it can show as great feeling for the natural, genuine sensual impression.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    @Tallmo Hi I'm wondering if you can guess the person's type based on his artwork?

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunshineInaPuddle View Post
    @Tallmo Hi I'm wondering if you can guess the person's type based on his artwork?
    I think it's difficult because a person can apply different techniques. Even if a person is Si he will not necessary make his artwork only with this function.

    But of course one can always guess.

    But there are forms of art that could be said to be Si. Less focus on the concrete object and more focus on the impression. As if the artist didn't care so much what he's actually looking at.

    I know this painting was made by a SEI

    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    same with SiFe cousin that's always had an innate TALENT for drawing, she didn't make it out into her field though, but we family tried to push her in that direction becaus she was incredible... now she's an archeologist and she decorated her house in a sort of unpleasing way that I wouldn't have expected from her... but anyway, yeah I think I type her Si because of this ability of hers mainly, lol, so I relate.

    I attended art school and I suck at drawing, my old IEI maybe SLI bestie too, he's never been too good at drawing but he's got IDEAS, crazy nice imagination and he developed these into a very personal art, he knows the rules of how to make a ceramic vase for example but refuses to follow them and instead creates new materials, new objects, and leaves everyone like :-o!! woo! even if he can't draw very well..

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    I think the important point is why people do art.
    They will use whichever function fits best, be they weak or even unvalued, if needs be.
    Now, why do some people feel the urge to make art, it's personal to them. Whether one's art is seen as beautiful or not, or interesting or not, is a matter of who's looking at it, so personal too. If you wish to make a living out of art, you need to find the right public, or it to find you somehow. Tho, there's no need to show anything made.
    My first drawings were ugly bunnies when I was five, I had to draw stuff for school and that's all I could think of. At six I had managed to become "good" at drawing, mostly by not drawing bunnies anymore, lol. Do I have a natural talent in drawing? I have to say no, only an interest in the visual world and a need for an outlet I could only find through drawing in the past, now I write and it turn into poetry and I'm like wtf, I'm not supposed to know how to write poetry, but then again, poetry was invented at some point anyway.

    I'm laughing so much at my ugly bunnies, god were they disgusting. halp.

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    We did some exercises in art class in high school to draw what you see instead of what the brain thinks it sees. There are some tricks to bypass this part of cognition. And after that everyone was considerably better in drawing / painting. I don't think art is type-related in any way, btw. Because even if you have no affinity for one technique (-> basically interest & patience to keep exploring it), you can find another way more suited to yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    same with SiFe cousin that's always had an innate TALENT for drawing, she didn't make it out into her field though, but we family tried to push her in that direction becaus she was incredible... now she's an archeologist and she decorated her house in a sort of unpleasing way that I wouldn't have expected from her... but anyway, yeah I think I type her Si because of this ability of hers mainly, lol, so I relate.

    I attended art school and I suck at drawing, my old IEI maybe SLI bestie too, he's never been too good at drawing but he's got IDEAS, crazy nice imagination and he developed these into a very personal art, he knows the rules of how to make a ceramic vase for example but refuses to follow them and instead creates new materials, new objects, and leaves everyone like :-o!! woo! even if he can't draw very well..
    Si base is supposed to be fairly unique to the individual due to it's subjective nature. Si creative is what I'd expect to be more in the realm of being concerned with aiding base Fe or Te, so your SEI cousin makes sense.

    there is such a thing called mastery. regardless of talent the more one practices the better one gets at the art and the more enjoyment one gets out of it.

    Useful to know:

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    I’d say that impressionistic Si often creates the radiance of an experience, giving it a degree of brilliance, vibration rate, weight, shading, even going to the extreme of making it float at a point on an imaginary internal horizon or turning it into a whole body bath of a non-defined wobbly substance, etc. Close to associative synesthesia but for experiences and thoughts, not immediate stimuli like hearing the number 9 be called out.

    Quote Originally Posted by SunshineInaPuddle View Post
    @Tallmo Hi I'm wondering if you can guess the person's type based on his artwork?
    I’m gonna butt in here. In respect to Si. Taking the above into account maybe this Coldplay song if we think about mainstream music. ‘you were all yellow’, ‘it was all yellow’, OK, but what the bleep is yellow? You can maybe guess the person’s type if such manifestations are continuous output but with Si I’d expect it to go from impressionism in itself (e.g. variations on a theme to adjust the ‘radiance’) to a an eagle-eye view of the process (a meditation on reality, perceptions, time).


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    I'm pretty good at drawing, I think.

    Not sure how much of talent is inborn, whether it's drawing or anything else, personally I'm not a big fan of placing limitations oneself as in "I suck at that" because it seems like an excuse to not try and improve. I do think some talent is inborn, but it's also pointless to compare yourself to others (unless you are officially enrolled in a competition of some sort), just try and do what you like and focus on doing it for you.


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    I don't really know tbh. I'm inclined to say that a lot of things are a mix of nature and nurture. But the idea that art is an inborn talent has been around for so long that I think it affects people's choices. Some people never become artists because they don't believe it's possible. I didn't believe it was possible for me to attend college, but I eventually figured out how to make it happen.

    The issue with the talent belief is that it predisposes one to never put effort into something they aren't immediately good at. And how many people are good at something when they first begin it? Very few, if any.

    It's easier to perpetuate a tiered society when people believe in talent and inborn traits. All the "undeserving" people are simply not talented or not gifted with the special something that would make them a success. It also has the result of limiting supply of talent, which makes amassing wealth easier. If everyone could be a highly skilled person with the right environment, there would be no excuse for poverty.

    Experience with things like computer programming has taught me though that some people who try a lot will most likely never be good at something. But that might not because necessarily be because they couldn't, but rather that there were too many gaps in their early education that are difficult to fill in later on. Math is one of the hardest problems to fix because the skills build on each other for years. If you're not good at basic number sense, you're not going to be good at adding and subtracting. And so on. So what looks like a talent deficit could be a long term skill deficit, etc. There are too many factors to really know what's going on.

    Instead of asking questions like this, it's probably better to try and see what happens. People are not afraid of failure as kids because there are no standards to live up to until you've been taught them. People have more energy and vivacity as kids partly for this reason. They are not afraid of trying. As an adult, you want to be good at something. But that takes practice. And I think a lot of people don't want to go through the frustration of failure as they get older. They feel like kids perhaps. They remember all the times they were insulted in school for not getting the "right" answer. And so they never try.

    I've gotten compliments for being good at Socionics from different people. But none of them know that I've practiced every day for years to get that good at it. That's probably the best example I can give from my own experience.

    Professionally, my Socionics skills are kind of a waste, because even with years of experience, Socionics is still elusive and difficult, and not too many people want a best guess at their psychological type lol. And the experience of being able to see type and the action of the information elements in people isn't something that can be communicated, so it's a private interest mainly.
    Last edited by Aramas; 07-17-2020 at 08:03 PM.

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    I'm also reminded of an anecdote by the mother of American modernism and probably one of the wealthiest and most successful artists America has ever had. Georgia O'Keeffe was amazing imo, and after 4 years of art school, she didn't paint for 4 years following, and the smell of turpentine made her sick. School is often a destroyer of talent and interest more than it fosters a person's abilities. If it weren't for her tenacity and eventually going back to create art again, the past would be different.

    People see the end result, but never what it took to get there. I'm certainly interested in being a millionaire, but I don't want to invest myself in business that much because I don't like doing business stuff that much in itself, so to me it would be a waste of time.

    I've had a lot of problems figuring out whether I could take a strong satisfaction in any one activity. Most things I do are kinda blah. Maybe I like doing it a little bit, but not that much. I guess Socionics has been an exception, but it doesn't make any money and it doesn't have a product that can be given to anyone or that anyone other than me can really see. When I was a teenager, I thought I might like computers and tech stuff, but I now avoid all that as much as I can. And I've discovered that I don't like writing all that much, and I don't read that much anymore either. So what was the literature degree for? That's just how life goes. I wish I could have been one of those people who gets into something when they're young and gets really good at it, and has a singular interest in something with a visible product of some kind, but that's not how things went lol. So the thought crosses my mind, what's next? Sigh lol.

    What do I really want? Do I want to do anything that much? Maybe that expectation in itself is a wrong one that comes from the society and world we live in. I dunno.

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    When people say they don't have talent, they mean, "I can't do that without effort" or "I couldn't do it even if I tried." But babies have to learn how to walk. What if a baby tried to walk and said to itself that it had no talent for walking after it couldn't get up the first few times? How many times do babies fall before learning to walk? It simply keeps trying to do it because it wants to, and it does it until it can. And any good mother encourages the infant all along the way.

    Something that's so natural for 99% of humans still has to be learned and practiced for quite a while. Think about that. You didn't walk out of your mother's womb, so why would you expect to paint like Picasso on the first go?

    I also remember reading a story about the only woman to ever survive rabies without a rabies shot. She was put into an induced coma, and afterwards had to learn how to swallow again. Think about that lol.

    Also, as far as art goes, a lot of whether it's good is a matter of perspective. I like hyperrealism, but one guy I knew who was good at painting said that it wasn't art.
    Last edited by Aramas; 07-17-2020 at 08:49 PM.

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    I think the speed of which people can learn to make art is genetic. meaning those people can become skilled faster. but being interested in art is definitely more nurture. the sooner a person is exposed to art, the likelier they are to become interested in it -> make art -> become skilled earlier
    also may have something to do with how babies can learn languages really easily but as we get older it becomes harder

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    Quote Originally Posted by maniac View Post
    I think the speed of which people can learn to make art is genetic. meaning those people can become skilled faster. but being interested in art is definitely more nurture. the sooner a person is exposed to art, the likelier they are to become interested in it -> make art -> become skilled earlier
    also may have something to do with how babies can learn languages really easily but as we get older it becomes harder
    There's also degrees. Not everyone is Shakespeare, but Stephen King didn't need to be him to be successful.

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    Artists have had a lot of practice, is not like most born with innate talent. They develop it over time, the only difference between most ppl who are good at smth and those who don't is that they started to practice earlier, probably since kids. For example Beethoven was forced to learn music since kid. I started drawing since I was 5 my parents didn't forced me, I liked it and started drawing by myself. I filled notebook after notebook. My ESE mom was into arts before I were born, though. And according some ppl who study geniuses, talent is not something mystical or abstract, its more brain differences, differences that are there due practice or an earlier contact between the baby (even before birth) and that kind of specific information that shaped the brain. The brain gets rid of those neural connections that doesn't use, for example, people who were deprived of language can't talk properly if they try to learn it later in life. So, there are specific moments in life to learn some stuff.


    This documentary talks about it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZUp1PrE5KE
    Last edited by Tommy; 07-18-2020 at 11:35 AM.

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    Hard work is always necessary but its not something that is neutral and the same for everyone. If you're talented then the work is going to feel easier. Your energies are flowing, you are being yourself and putting your strengths to use.

    If you're not talented its gonna feel lika an uphill battle. You get out of tune with yourself. Energies are dammed up. At some point you get mental problems. You can still improve yourself to some degree but at some point you'll hit the wall. People cannot do violence to their own nature forever.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    I can only draw crude outlines. Since the introverted irrational aspects are not easily accessible for detailed view I prefer to leave it. However there certainly exists "stick figure" or shape abstracted art [closer to Euclid's elements than vibrancy].

    Vibrancy as in having lots of frequencies - this is a local dynamic perspective perception on things. Music is similar. I think static art can be found in statues or comics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by COVID 007 View Post
    I think static art can be found in statues or comics.
    With exceptions


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    When people say they don't have talent, they mean, "I can't do that without effort" or "I couldn't do it even if I tried." But babies have to learn how to walk. What if a baby tried to walk and said to itself that it had no talent for walking after it couldn't get up the first few times? How many times do babies fall before learning to walk? It simply keeps trying to do it because it wants to, and it does it until it can. And any good mother encourages the infant all along the way.

    Something that's so natural for 99% of humans still has to be learned and practiced for quite a while. Think about that. You didn't walk out of your mother's womb, so why would you expect to paint like Picasso on the first go?

    I also remember reading a story about the only woman to ever survive rabies without a rabies shot. She was put into an induced coma, and afterwards had to learn how to swallow again. Think about that lol.

    Also, as far as art goes, a lot of whether it's good is a matter of perspective. I like hyperrealism, but one guy I knew who was good at painting said that it wasn't art.
    Some people haven't improved despite years of what would count as practice, and some types of people are dissuaded from even trying on the assumption that there are cases where someone can't improve no matter what.

    This lowest common denominator forms the basis of people's fears. It does not matter what the mode or median are as long as this LCD is a possibility.



    When comparing enviro-determinism and innate-determinism, think about this: Which of the following is more likely? Is it more likely that most things really are environmentally determined, and innate-determinism is an insane worst-case boogeyman that everyone tells themselves because they're masochists?
    Or, is it more likely that once you've boiled everything down, the important things are all innate, and this fact is so discouraging to the average person, that enviro-determinism is a comforting lie they tell themselves, to prevent mass descent into nihilism?

    The choice is obvious.

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    (JAZZA) and I'm really in awe of people who can effortlessly draw. Bonus points if you know his type, i'm not quite sure but i like
    Te dom. Not really sure which creative except he’s not LIE-Ni. If you look at his channel there’s a million tutorials and product reviews. He has a very energetic EJ vibe but not in a Fe way. Also his tutorials are very grounded and objective, giving specific practices and a grounded step-by-step approach to improving technical skills. I find this very helpful and obviously so do many others.
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    I find every single type can succeed in art. The approach is simply different. You wouldn’t think LIE as an artsy fartsy type but their hyperproductivity and simply practice will 200% get you further than any other. This being said, I browse quite a bit of art in social media channels and SEIs make a large majority. I think it’s more due to the job itself than some innate latent talent. And obviously there are many skilled artists who do it as a side hobby but the vast majority who grind their skills to god-level or even just consumer-worthy through sweat blood and pain depend on their skills as their way to make a living, constantly surrounded by your infinitely more competent peers than “just for fun”. The art industry is oversaturated and the odds of making it are depressing. Probably more appealing to irrational Te-polr from this perspective.
    Last edited by coda; 07-18-2020 at 06:39 PM.
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    -Sadie Plant, Zeros + Ones p. 3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I think it's difficult because a person can apply different techniques. Even if a person is Si he will not necessary make his artwork only with this function.

    But of course one can always guess.

    But there are forms of art that could be said to be Si. Less focus on the concrete object and more focus on the impression. As if the artist didn't care so much what he's actually looking at.

    I know this painting was made by a SEI

    @Tallmo So would you say that Ni/Se painters tend to care more about making all the details looks impressive, and perhaps realistic? The kind of paintings that make people go, "Wow, this is so impressive, so detailed, so realistic looking. Damn.." Whereas Si/Ne painters tend to pay less attention to the details and more attention to the overall emotional impression that they get?
    Would you say that's accurate? Or are you saying more that Si/Ne paintings are more abstract and Ni/Se paintings are more concrete?
    Looking at your pinterest, your taste in paintings seem to lean more towards the concrete. (As do mine).
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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    @Tallmo So would you say that Ni/Se painters tend to care more about making all the details looks impressive, and perhaps realistic? The kind of paintings that make people go, "Wow, this is so impressive, so detailed, so realistic looking. Damn.." Whereas Si/Ne painters tend to pay less attention to the details and more attention to the overall emotional impression that they get?
    Would you say that's accurate? Or are you saying more that Si/Ne paintings are more abstract and Ni/Se paintings are more concrete?
    Looking at your pinterest, your taste in paintings seem to lean more towards the concrete. (As do mine).
    Let's just talk about Si base vs Se base. I don't want to talk about Si/Ne vs Ni/Se, because then we are also including people with opposite strengths. That gets too complicated.

    I think both Si and Se can be abstract but the abstraction develops in different directions.

    Si painters can pay lots of attention to details too. I'm just saying that if art is made purely with the Si function then the painter will focus on his impressions and downplay the object. Si is maybe not so much "emotional impressions", but more that sensations are felt deeper than in other types, because some unconscious "archaic experience" is attached to the sensations. Sensations are felt "from the inside". Deeper, more "genuine", a slight touch of the "numinous". I think that's not going too far.

    Yes, I have a lot of concrete pictures in my pinterest. But I didn't paint those pictures myself. I have just chosen pictures that give me nice sensations, many have nature or a sensual feel about them. I do think there is Si in them but I have of course used other functions also when choosing them. Sometimes when I look at other people's Pinterest I am surprise how "sterile" they are, compared to my own taste.

    I can't say much about Se at this point. My former art teacher is a SEE and she has paintings online. Many of them are definitely abstract but I think there is an "Se feel" about them. What do you think?

    EDIT: Also check out chapter XI "Definitions" 47. SENSATION, page 461 concerning concrete and abstract sensation from Jung's point of view.
    Last edited by Tallmo; 07-25-2020 at 09:13 AM.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    Would you say that Hit(me)ler's paintings are very poor representation of Si?
    Measuring you right now

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post

    There are lots of SEIs who are not artistic at all.
    of course. I actually asked him if his SEI wife was good at art, he said nah shes never tried it. Does she have any hobbies i ask? Yeah mostly socializing and reality television.


    Quote Originally Posted by coda View Post
    Te dom. Not really sure which creative except he’s not LIE-Ni. If you look at his channel there’s a million tutorials and product reviews. He has a very energetic EJ vibe but not in a Fe way. Also his tutorials are very grounded and objective, giving specific practices and a grounded step-by-step approach to improving technical skills. I find this very helpful and obviously so do many others.
    I agree 100%, that was what i suspected as well. What about this guy? I suspect he is SLI-Si and his wife is IEE-Ne. or ILI - See?



    Quote Originally Posted by lynn View Post
    We did some exercises in art class in high school to draw what you see instead of what the brain thinks it sees. There are some tricks to bypass this part of cognition. And after that everyone was considerably better in drawing / painting. I don't think art is type-related in any way, btw. Because even if you have no affinity for one technique (-> basically interest & patience to keep exploring it), you can find another way more suited to yourself.
    I'll have to look into this, cheers. I'd just like to see if i can actually go from woeful to just horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post

    The issue with the talent belief is that it predisposes one to never put effort into something they aren't immediately good at. And how many people are good at something when they first begin it? Very few, if any.
    Yeah that was one of the arguments from the book my friend was reading. Obviously also if you are reinforced earlier in life you'll be more likely to pursue something. He explained that date of birth was a key determinant for talent scouted hockey players. The author suggested this was because if you're older than the other kids you're playing against there is a clear advantage. There has also been some famous chess families where parents have decided they will make world chess champions. The other argument was that its the quality of practice that that is most important rather than the time spent practicing (of course).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
    Artists have had a lot of practice, is not like most born with innate talent. They develop it over time, the only difference between most ppl who are good at smth and those who don't is that they started to practice earlier, probably since kids. For example Beethoven was forced to learn music since kid. I started drawing since I was 5 my parents didn't forced me, I liked it and started drawing by myself. I filled notebook after notebook.
    Interesting you mention beethoven. He was also used as an example. Apparently something like 1 in 10000 kids have perfect pitch and beethoven was one of them. Perfect pitch was related to being really talented but not neccessary. Anywayit was eventually learned that you can teach kids to have perfect pitch. One study took 50 kids and trained them for a few weeks and they all had it at the end. If you don't lay down those connections by a certian age though i dont think its possible anymore.
    Last edited by meatburger; 07-26-2020 at 11:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    I'll have to look into this, cheers. I'd just like to see if i can actually go from woeful to just horrible.
    The exercises were by Betty Edwards, who also posted some before/after examples from her own students on her website... We simply used her book back then, not sure whether you can find some of it also online /on youtube, in case you're interested. It doesn't really help to develop your own style, but it's a good starting point and then you could go for drawing techniques according to your own preference (and not draw like the style Betty Edwards developed in the 70s) after that.
    Last edited by lynn; 07-26-2020 at 05:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lynn View Post
    The exercises were by Betty Edwards
    Thanks Lynn! I've found her book online but i might even buy it for good old Betty's sake. I'd like to imagine her buying a nice box of tea bags or something with my money.
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    Quote Originally Posted by COVID 007 View Post
    Would you say that Hit(me)ler's paintings are very poor representation of Si?
    Hı̇tler's paintings are a poor representation of art. Hı̇tler got turned down from art school, not because his paintings were "too traditional" contrary to what some people who just don't have a taste for Germanic art to know better say, but because they were bad. The art school he applied to actually told him to apply to architecture school because they thought his drawings looked like good sketches of buildings from a technical perspective, just ones that were horrible to look at.
    WARNING: SUM OF DIS CHAPTA IS XTREMLY SCRAY. VIOWER EXCRETION ADVISD

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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    So my ILE friend is reading a book at the moment and the premise is that inborn talent is mostly a myth. I think there is some truth to this but it lead me to wonder how much is type related. I didn't want to argue with him because its quite a beneficial thought to think you can do anything if you work hard enough.

    After thinking about some skills i could try to improve I thought about drawing. I am absolutely woeful at drawing. I used to actually refuse to play pictionary when my friends played. If you asked me right now to draw the outline of a basic horse it would probably end up looking more like a dog or some abomination in between. I know an SEI, who living up to his typecast could draw from a young age. I don't think hes drawn in years but i have no doubt he could have been very good if he wanted. I've also met some ISTp's/ESTj's that don't seem too bad at drawing either. I wondered if Si was related to this type of artistic ability, and to what extent this could be learnt? Does Si lead people to pay more attention to details, shapes? Or is it a matter of preference? Perhaps for some reason more SEI kids are taken by drawing and that explains the skill? I know IEI types are also regarded as highly artistic too, but in what way? Are some types better at drawing abstract art, ultra realistic art etc? Or is this all rubbish and its not type related at all?

    I started watching this guy

    (JAZZA) and I'm really in awe of people who can effortlessly draw. Bonus points if you know his type, i'm not quite sure but i like him.
    You didn't mention the name of the book.... I am curious about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    You didn't mention the name of the book.... I am curious about it.
    Good point. Peak: Secrets from the New Science of Expertise
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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by COVID 007 View Post
    Would you say that Hit(me)ler's paintings are very poor representation of Si?
    they are very detailed. That could indicate rationality? I don't think they represent Si because they are too structural and detailed. Si is irrational and impressionistic.

    I find his paintings interesting, maybe because I know he made them. Some of them are really nice
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lynn View Post
    The exercises were by Betty Edwards, who also posted some before/after examples from her own students on her website... We simply used her book back then, not sure whether you can find some of it also online /on youtube, in case you're interested. It doesn't really help to develop your own style, but it's a good starting point and then you could go for drawing techniques according to your own preference (and not draw like the style Betty Edwards developed in the 70s) after that.
    I have always loved to draw and paint, and I think it has to do with delighting in visual perception, particularly form and color. Like it's a kind of puzzle I like to stick with until I figure it out, visualizing something in my mind, making what is on paper be like how I think it should be in my head, and you just stick at it until it manifests how you visualized it. When you get there it is so rewarding, like putting the last pieces of a big puzzle in place. I think it is like some people love the puzzle of a musical piece - they will just tune into the sounds of the instrument, and in what the hear in their mind as to how it should go, or the feel, mood or sound of what they want to sing and how it should sound, and they want to get in that "space" in their mind and stick with it until what they hear in their mind can be heard aloud. Others like to figure out how a thing works: lets take this apart until the whole system makes sense. Or how to perform an athletic activity exactly as one visualizes it.

    I teach art; at this point I'm restarting my career after time off. I love Betty Edwards and relate very strongly to her philosophy and have designed lessons around her methodology since student teaching [a favorite is right from her Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain book: "We all draw Ivan" (upside-down)]. I love teaching very young children draw-what-you-see methods, and seeing their delight in surprising themselves and others with what they can do. I wish I had time to post some of their work, which I cherish... I have posted it here on 16t before but I forgot where it is.

    Anyway, I am reading school website's announcements of covid plans for the jobs i am applying for because we are all wondering what will happen in the fall. Its crazy. I need to visualize in my mind how I will pull it off in the various suggested scenarios because I need to sound convincing that I can do it in an interview. One thing I am thinking is that if we have to pass out individual, un-shareable supplies for each child in an entire school, with art budgets what they have sunk to - a dollar or two per child for the year in many districts - and you can't give out much more than a pencil and a stck f white paper in everyone's "individual packs" of art supplies supplies for the school year.

    So the classic debate about school art programs (at least among art teachers) is always "depth vs. breadth" issue - a lot of art mediums/subjects/project-types vs. in-depth concentration of one thing? The vast majority of us lean towards breadth, both because it is what people expect of the art program, but also because when you have 600 students, breadth is the natural approach to hitting on all the differing varied interests. To do this takes tons of management of time and materials to cover a wide ground there. It's really quite a feat. But covid restrictions restrict breadth as a viable option. So it's got to be depth. So jsut in recent days it hit on me - I can go back to drawing lessons I love! I could do this all year and it would be something they enjoy returning to week after week. So it makes this restriction more of an opportunity than a challenge. (Which I need. This past year (art teacher for two schools, huge class load) was so challenging - pretty much morning to night 7 days a week.)
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


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    Eccentric Neurotic Narcissist andreasdevig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Let's just talk about Si base vs Se base. I don't want to talk about Si/Ne vs Ni/Se, because then we are also including people with opposite strengths. That gets too complicated.

    I think both Si and Se can be abstract but the abstraction develops in different directions.

    Si painters can pay lots of attention to details too. I'm just saying that if art is made purely with the Si function then the painter will focus on his impressions and downplay the object. Si is maybe not so much "emotional impressions", but more that sensations are felt deeper than in other types, because some unconscious "archaic experience" is attached to the sensations. Sensations are felt "from the inside". Deeper, more "genuine", a slight touch of the "numinous". I think that's not going too far.

    Yes, I have a lot of concrete pictures in my pinterest. But I didn't paint those pictures myself. I have just chosen pictures that give me nice sensations, many have nature or a sensual feel about them. I do think there is Si in them but I have of course used other functions also when choosing them. Sometimes when I look at other people's Pinterest I am surprise how "sterile" they are, compared to my own taste.

    I can't say much about Se at this point. My former art teacher is a SEE and she has paintings online. Many of them are definitely abstract but I think there is an "Se feel" about them. What do you think?

    EDIT: Also check out chapter XI "Definitions" 47. SENSATION, page 461 concerning concrete and abstract sensation from Jung's point of view.

    Thanks, Tallmo. It's a bit difficult for me to understand what Si is about in terms of the 'archaic psychic mirror world' that's described. To me, taking in the sensory external visual beauty always feels like an emotional thing. And that to me is the purpose of art (to elicit emotions). So it's hard for me to imagine it in a different light than that. But anyways..
    Could you describe what you mean by the "Se feel" that you speak of?
    EII-INFj / INFP / Strong E4 and 9 energy / Melancholic-Phlegmatic / Musical-Intrapersonal-Spatial / Kinky-Sensual

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    I believe in-born talent but you still have to work for it and society and other people still need to encourage it as well inside a person. (but of course the most important thing is if you encourage it in yourself.) It's complicated because there's always the thing that people can be very naturally good at something, but also just not like it. (and likewise, they can really enjoy something they aren't that talented in.)

    Usually your in born talents you want to do an early age. My parents told me I was 'doodling' and making comics and fantasy stories for people ever since I was 2 years old lol I was just born to do it. Same thing with athletic people, Tiger Woods started golfing at 4 fucking years old right? Of course if he kept doing it over time he would be narcissistically good at it by the time he was in his 20s/30s or whatever etc. That's why I get a little annoyed when people try too hard to change me to be 'straight man practical like' because it's not that I TOTALLY suck at those things, it's just I never naturally wanted to do them much when I was younger. I wanted to write stories and make comics/art. But mostly I get more annoyed at myself if I get insecure and think I need to be that way or something. But certain things people are going to try and develop more in you because it helps you fit in better (but the best & most interesting ppl to me are always the lovable weirdos who stand out. <3)

    And then there is the saying you should probably try to be good at a lot of different things and the 'specialization is for insects' thing which also has some truth to it. I like improving my STR stat as well as my INT (even if naturally I was given more INT/WIS then STR and CON lol)

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    This is an interesting topic to me because I have an SEI cousin who draws and I draw and I am EII. The way we draw is different and I can see some ways it might be influenced by type, especially our strengths and weaknesses in drawing. For example he tells me he has a hard time drawing things from his imagination and he has a much easier time copying an existing picture, to me it sounds like he has an easier time emulating the details of an existing picture that he picks up with Si instead of drawing from random ideas he generates via Ne. I draw more from imagination and usually it's cartoons and I rarely draw from life, I'm not the best at copying but can manage if I had to and sometimes get it really close, but my drawing process is way more Ne idea generating than anything else, and that's my purpose for drawing is the get the generated ideas visualized while my cousins purpose for drawing is to make something aesthetically accurate and pleasing. My cousin has more of a knack and excels with very little effort in graphic design though, he uses very simple shapes and colors and some how makes it flow together. He's a better portrait artist I'm a better cartoonist.

    My SLE brother just got started doing art and he paints pop culture cartoons and sneakers. But the reason he does art is "I don't do this because I love it or anything, I'm not like that, I do this to make money." and he sells what he makes. His reason is very different from me and my SEI cousins.

    I think being drawn to art is nature and being good at it is nurture.
    I think certain types might be more drawn to drawing and their type might influence their drawing process but I can't say it would give any type the talent, just might make them get early exposure from having an interest in it at a young age. I think when people say talent they really are just noticing someone's early exposure, for most people at least.
    Last edited by Lord Pixel; 08-01-2020 at 05:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    And then there is the saying you should probably try to be good at a lot of different things and the 'specialization is for insects' thing which also has some truth to it.
    I don't get it when people say specialization is for insects when most of the people that are praised and talked about for their accomplishments are specialists. Very few people are known for many things like Elon Musk.

    I personally think it's better to dump all the stats in the best areas than spread them all out, because it's better to be exceptional in one area than average in multiple. Gandhi spent all his stat points in WIS and none in STR that's why we know him today. The reverse for Genghis Khan.
    Last edited by Lord Pixel; 08-01-2020 at 04:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    So my ILE friend is reading a book at the moment and the premise is that inborn talent is mostly a myth. I think there is some truth to this but it lead me to wonder how much is type related. I didn't want to argue with him because its quite a beneficial thought to think you can do anything if you work hard enough.

    After thinking about some skills i could try to improve I thought about drawing. I am absolutely woeful at drawing. I used to actually refuse to play pictionary when my friends played. If you asked me right now to draw the outline of a basic horse it would probably end up looking more like a dog or some abomination in between. I know an SEI, who living up to his typecast could draw from a young age. I don't think hes drawn in years but i have no doubt he could have been very good if he wanted. I've also met some ISTp's/ESTj's that don't seem too bad at drawing either. I wondered if Si was related to this type of artistic ability, and to what extent this could be learnt? Does Si lead people to pay more attention to details, shapes? Or is it a matter of preference? Perhaps for some reason more SEI kids are taken by drawing and that explains the skill? I know IEI types are also regarded as highly artistic too, but in what way? Are some types better at drawing abstract art, ultra realistic art etc? Or is this all rubbish and its not type related at all?

    I started watching this guy

    (JAZZA) and I'm really in awe of people who can effortlessly draw. Bonus points if you know his type, i'm not quite sure but i like him.
    i haven't read what other people replied yet but here are my 2 cents as an IEI-H:
    In middle school, having never tried to draw before, I suddenly developed a really strong passion for it and I'd say I improved at a pretty above average pace during that time. 2 or 3 years later I suddenly completely stopped drawing, but now i'm trying to pick it up again.
    I have a very good eye, and I've never been great at drawing from memory because I can't remember what anything looks like, but since almost the beginning I was very good at copying things from a reference. I'm quite good atseeing. relatively.given how much practice I've had.
    Like any learning artist I have my struggles, but I have a good natural sense of harmony and balance and value/contrast. I never progressed beyond drawing with only pencil (so I haven't learned to incorporate color yet) but in other aspects, for example with clothing, I have a very good eye for color. I'm very picky with what colors I wear, and I can always tell if a color looks good bad or meh on someone.. honestly I love colors.

    Also, I'm generally very good at expressing myself creatively, that could be because I'm also a 4. for example in playing piano i am naturally able to infuse emotionality into what i play. my teacher rarely has to guide me in this aspect

    tl;dr: i don't necessarily have a talent for drawing but the above strengths could translate to that.. i lack in other areas though, for example if i tried to draw a horse right now it would also look like a weird dog creature ;D
    also, for any fine arts skill i have 0 baseline skill, but when i practice for a bit i pick it up very quickly

    I know an LSE who doesn't really draw, but when she copied some anime characters it wasn't bad.
    Also know 2 ESI's who are good artists and they can draw very well from memory (relative to their general skill) which I'm rly jealous of. I also know an ESI-Se who isn't an artist and she has no creative bone in her, but she's actually not horrible at drawing..

    Also yeah, Jazza is so good
    You should check out artwork from WLOP..
    Last edited by chocolatte; 08-02-2020 at 03:29 AM.

  39. #39
    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    Thanks, Tallmo. It's a bit difficult for me to understand what Si is about in terms of the 'archaic psychic mirror world' that's described. To me, taking in the sensory external visual beauty always feels like an emotional thing. And that to me is the purpose of art (to elicit emotions). So it's hard for me to imagine it in a different light than that. But anyways.
    It's all about being super attentive with the distinctions. Otherwise it's hard to understand. You say "taking in external visual beauty". That requires some distinctions. Si is inner sensations evoked by external (visual) objects. Sensation is introverted, it only senses things on the inside. What then are these inner sensations really? These things can be felt as beautiful or not beautiful, but because they are rising from the inner psyche they give the object an "aura" or "wrapping" of something more than the concrete visual world. For Si people the environment feels more "psychic".

    Then it shouldn't be hard to understand "archaic psychic mirror". It's just a very strict and honest description of Si. The sensations are strictly speaking arising on the inside (although they are felt as being out there, together with the object), so in that way they mirror the object. They are archaic in the sense that they are not a part of the ever-changing physical world, but the psyche's own reflection or addition to visual experience. Ultimately, these reflections stem from mankind's long history with experiencing the environment.

    Could you describe what you mean by the "Se feel" that you speak of?
    I associate Se with things like contrast, brightness, shape, color saturation etc. These things can be played with and applied with different levels of abstraction of the object depicted. But I'm not absolutely sure, but something like that.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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