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Thread: I need a little help with editing/understanding this sentence from a ILE/SEI Duality description!

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Default I need a little help with editing/understanding this sentence from a ILE/SEI Duality description!

    [This post is long because I am including the context, but it just asks input about one sentence]

    I am editing this Meged Duality Description for an old SEI friend that I recently got in touch with again, who has been in a longtime Dual marriage. She is unfamiliar with Socionics so I just want to send her something easy to read that is short and easy for her to relate to, and I think this is it. Except the Duality descriptions from Meged (and the others) are all "he, him, his" for both types being discussed, which adds to the confusion of reading translations from the Russian, while you are considering a male/female pair. I have found that changing out the appropriate pronouns, in the case of considering a male/female duality pair, is extremely helpful.

    However, when I get to this one sentence, highlighted below, I can't figure out who is being spoken of! Which should be him, which her? So I would like help to edit the questionable sentence highlighted in red below (the rest of the text I have already converted to the him/her) and clarify it for me!

    __________________________________________________

    "The Innovator" = ENTp = ILE (Ne-Ti) - [husband]
    "The Mediator" = ISFp = SEI (Si-Fe) - [wife]

    The Innovator is somewhat torn away from reality. He is captivated by far-reaching projects. He usually has many ideas and interests, which he explains so vaguely that only few people can fully understand him. The Mediator, however, does not reject them at once, but displays an interest; if she notes one that is useful, she looks for support from people who can help with practical realization of these ideas. If these ideas, however, seem to her too naive, or if their implementation is too problematic, The Mediator can subtly 'ground' The Innovator's inventive energy, calm him down, and distract him from 'fighting windmills'. The Mediator appreciates The Innovator's originality of thought and often shares in his interests and his passions. In general, she tolerantly relates to this 'eternal child', playing the role of a caring parent. He manages the practical side of their everyday life together.

    The Innovator critically refers to everything that has been already invented and made. He searches for new solutions and alternatives. Analyzing the situation and finding points that are arguable, he may cause a split in an organization and create his own group of adherents. However, due to lack of tactfulness he cannot always attract and keep his supporters. His dual, The Mediator, is an expert at 'shuttle diplomacy'; she is quite capable of banding people together, softening the ethical mistakes of her dual and finding support from his superiors. She takes care of the comfort, rest, and entertainment of other people, and can arrange gatherings and parties. In handling everyday tasks and chores The Mediator is very active and mobile. ***He strives to finish all that he has started, but on the condition that he is convinced that it has good future prospects and that he receives advice on resolution of complicated and intricate situations.*** The Mediator watches and manages the flow of work, and does not let The Innovator drop everything and stop halfway, being pulled aside by another idea. The Innovator needs such a person who can exert a stabilizing effect on both affairs and relations.

    The Innovator readily mobilizes in critical moments. He courageously rebuffs his opposition, protecting both his own interests and interests of people close to him. While at this, he sometimes loses the sense of measure and goes overboard. The Mediator watches for this and skillfully directs his initiatives. When The Innovator loses his energy and vitality, and begins neglect his duties, The Mediator arranges for an emotional shake-up for him and by this raises his spirits. Likewise, The Mediator can soften a conflict and extinguish a quarrel by relying on diplomacy and jokes, before it leads to a break up of their relations. The Mediator's feelings often return The Innovator 'to solid ground' and distract him from abstractions, making him consider the practical side of life as well.

    The Innovator does not regulate interpersonal distance in communication very well; sometimes he is inappropriately familiar and impolite, too trusting towards other people, or too kind to those who don't care for him. For this reason he may fall into troubles and difficult situations. The Mediator relieves him from such mistakes.

    The Mediator can take care of the health and well-being of others. The Innovator appreciates this trait of his dual. He responds with reciprocity, strives to be faithful in their partnership and friendship, which is especially liked by The Mediator.

    Although from afar The Mediator demonstrates an optimistic attitude, she, in actuality, is very much afraid of the future as the source of uncertainty. Her dual saves her from such doubts by foreseeing what is going to happen and especially by taking protective actions and measures of global strategic nature. The Mediator periodically falls into periods of inaction and laziness, but her dual does not rebuke her for this and does not require her to be always highly productive. The Mediator likes The Innovator's talent to derive benefit out of everything without much effort, to make profitable deals, and willingly assists her partner in such endeavors.

    Spontaneity, immediacy, ingenuousness, and impulsiveness in life and in feelings are the 'visiting card' of this dual pair.

    ________________________________

    Three possible options for correction of him/her are below; I am leaning towards #2, but I could be wrong, so I seek advice:

    1) She strives to finish all that she has started, but on the condition that she is convinced that it has good future prospects and that she receives advice on resolution of complicated and intricate situations.

    2) She strives to finish all that he has started, but on the condition that she is convinced that it has good future prospects and that he receives advice on resolution of complicated and intricate situations.

    3) He strives to finish all that he has started, but on the condition that he is convinced that it has good future prospects and that he receives advice on resolution of complicated and intricate situations.



    I think option 3 is unlikely but maybe. It seems that option 2 is good, but if so it should be rewritten for clarity so you can understand what is being said. Here are options 1 & 2, rewritten for clarity:

    1) The Mediator strives to finish all that she has started, but on the condition that she is convinced that it has good future prospects and that she receives advice on resolution of complicated and intricate situations.


    2) ]The Mediator strives to finish all that her dual has started, but on the condition that she is convinced that it has good future prospects [for him] and that he receives advice on resolution of complicated and intricate situations.



    If there is another better option I did not think of, please let me know!
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 07-11-2020 at 08:58 PM.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    "He strives to finish all that he has started, but on the condition that he is convinced that it has good future prospects and that he receives advice on resolution of complicated and intricate situations."

    SEI will make better efforts to finish all that he has started when SEI is convinced that it has good future prospects [support in N] and that SEI receives advice on resolution of complicated and intricate situations [should be about T related].

    -

    It's better to have original book's text in Russian than to interpretate a fanmade translations, which may to have distortions.

    I recommend Filatova's book in English for first reading. This translation should be revised by the author, and the text is close to normal theory. Meged used a lot of baseless heresies from Gulenko and own.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    "He strives to finish all that he has started, but on the condition that he is convinced that it has good future prospects and that he receives advice on resolution of complicated and intricate situations."

    SEI will make better efforts to finish all that he has started when SEI is convinced that it has good future prospects [support in N] and that SEI receives advice on resolution of complicated and intricate situations [should be about T related].

    -

    It's better to have original book's text in Russian than to interpretate a fanmade translations, which may to have distortions.

    I recommend Filatova's book in English for first reading. This translation should be revised by the author, and the text is close to normal theory. Meged used a lot of baseless heresies from Gulenko and own.
    Thanks for tackling this, Sol. I can't read a lot on this now, though. My SEI friend probably won't want to do a full investigation; I just want to give her some digestible relatable bits. I have found Meged's Duality descriptions to be spot-on for all types I know (even the ones who are not with their Dual, when I read their Dual description, I think, "Yes, that is exactly what would work for them"). Certainly my own IEE/SLI dualit description fits amazingly, and also for other IEE/SLI couples I know of as well, and the ILE/SEi fits amazing for the TWO such Dual couples I know. Those couples are very different people, but very much the same in duality descriptions. However I should read the book you recommend sometime. Does Filatova give any specific by-type Duality descriptions like Meged does in the link discussed above?

    So Sol, are you saying here, since you say the SEI would make better efforts to finish, that my statement #2 would be the best interpretation Meged's sentence here?

    Editing to add: Sol, so since you say SEI receives advice, then would you saying that you would amend #2 statement to:

    2) ]The Mediator strives to finish all that her dual has started, but on the condition that she is convinced that it has good future prospects [for him] and that she receives advice on resolution of complicated and intricate situations.
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 07-12-2020 at 12:03 AM. Reason: addendum
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    My SEI friend probably won't want to do a full investigation
    A book helps to understand the typology as a system. Without the context the info what you give will have higher chance to be underesteemated or understood incorrectly. Filatova made good books for novices - easy to read.

    > Does Filatova give any specific by-type Duality descriptions like Meged does in the link discussed above?

    That book should not. Only rather shortly.

    > So Sol, are you saying here, since you say the SEI would make better efforts to finish, that my statement #2 would be the best interpretation Meged's sentence here?

    In the original text as "he" could be used for type SEI (unlike in English, in Russian nouns have sexes and term "type" is "man") and "he" for the husband.

    There can be 4th variant:

    She (SEI) strives to finish all that he (ILE) has started, but on the condition that she is convinced that it has good future prospects and that she receives advice on resolution of complicated and intricate situations.

    The sense: to help to ILE with his ideas, SEI needs return support in N and T. To act by strong regions SEI needs the support in her weak regions.

    update:
    "The Mediator strives to finish all that her dual has started, but on the condition that she is convinced that it has good future prospects [for him] and that she receives advice on resolution of complicated and intricate situations."
    It's 4th. Except "it has good future prospects" in general, not for him only.

    P.S. I have a suspicion about your J type. I may watch your video to check this possibility.
    Last edited by Sol; 07-12-2020 at 12:49 AM.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Hi Sol, the book sounds interesting to me, and I will check it out some time.

    One of the things I have done wrong in the past is to try to show people all the interesting things about Socionics, sometimes arranging a big piler of what I thik is very fascinating info in a specialized way is a particularly helpful intro to the fascinating world of Socionics. But it turns out it's often way too much for a person, as all my diligent effort did not spark their interest that much. So now my approach with a friend that I think may be interested will be to share one small thing - in the case of my SEi friend*, the above description that I think this SEI's duality marriage very well - and if she takes an interest and asks about anything else then i will share more, about the thing she asks about, and if not, I won't.

    *[Hopefully Meged's style is compatible with Alpha Quadra!]

    Thank you so much for taking the time with this editing help; your rewrite of the sentence which identifies who is who for me is very helpful!

    How we type and Socionics Authors

    I have noticed is people tend to like the Socionics authors who has the same type, or perhaps Quadra type, or perhaps cognitive style as themselves. That makes sense, doesn't it? I don't know what Meged's type is, do you? I like Meged's Duality descriptions, and also, you are speaking here Gulenko having "heresies" - LOL, I like how you put that - but actually Gulenko is probably the author I like the VERY MOST out of all the different Socionics authors I have read - I have read plenty of Filitova articles, though not the book you mentioned, as well as LOTS of different Socionics authors, and I can't say that I have noticed any authors I just didn't like. Gulenko is the most relatable though, for me. I think his Erotic Attitudes are the bee's knees, and I love his narrative type-descriptions the best. So I am thinking whatever type he is, he must think compatibly with IEE, or maybe my cognitive style? Or favored elements? So i think he must not be so compatible with your type. At least that is what I've noticed about people's preferred Socionics authors (that there seems to be a type-compatibility element involved).

    Could I be a J type?

    You said:
    P.S. I have a suspicion about your J type. I may watch your video to check this possibility.
    I am IEE, and so very, very P it's painful at times. I grew up with J values encouraged, both in my family and in my educational and community environment, so my whole life I have tried accomplish things in the J expected of me, at least at work and school. I am an art teacher and I think a lot of us art teachers struggle with this. I sure struggled beginning my career in an elementary where so many teachers are ESE and those values and ways of being and seeing are the most encouraged. And my principal (in that first phase of my career) was ISTj, I really struggled under her directives designed to make me be more "J". I definitely got better at it, under duress. One of the 2 or 3 compliments my compliment-stingy principal gave me in the years I worked under her was the time I returned to school in the fall and she startled me by greeting me telling me she and her husband (a principal, too, in another district) were comparing art teachers and I won hands-down. That completely unexpected, genuine, actual compliment kept me going a LONG time! (I also believed she must have attended a principal workshop that summer and they'd been told they should give their staff a specific compliment, each, and that is what she came up with fore me!) But it was after she said that that she FINALLY got off my back with the constant directives and let me just teach. But my "P" approach is not fun for J's to watch. It 's not always efficient but my drive gets the job done, well and successfully.

    I get things done for a couple reasons. I think I am E4, and its needful for me to create or accomplish a thing that is a true expression of who I am, what I like, or how I think things can best be, so I am compelled to manifest a great idea/project/concept that I birth in my mind. Our portico porch my husband and I made that I posted pics of is an example. I have a vision and I love to develop it and I am compelled to take it all the way to completion, as I envisioned it. And the finished thing (be it a career year with it's goals, a piece of art, or a decorating or building project, or a sit down Christmas dinner for 14), the project or thing is like my baby, a piece of me. I think I have E1 ion my tri-type too because I am a perfectionist achiever too. And my Libra sign is Cardinal. So all that contributes to a drive I have. But, P has me approach things from many angles at once, and also getting sidetracked with multiple things going at once, as well as the new things and thoughts that inspire an IEE, so, a J type evaluating my processes and actions can have a lot to criticize. And in that way (and others) my SLI husband is perfect for me. He lets me go at it and do things my seemingly random way, without putting out obstacles for me by being a critic - and he even observes and sees how he can help me out, to boot.

    So, all that explaining about my type for a guy who prefers to type by video. (I notice you pretty consistently ask every single person who asks for opinion on their type to post a video of themselves). But I haven't posted a video of me, due to my concern about internet privacy, and a video of me talking about my type open to the public feels WAY too vulnerable, while instead, anonymity makes me feel free to speak freely and openly, which I value highly. So my whole internet presence is sparce, though my posts here aren't! Sometime I will post a pic of me, though I won't keep it up long. I have actually already tried to post a pic of myself a few times, especially since I know what some people here look like but they haven't seen me, so it feels unequal, but I couldn't figure out how. I don't seem to be able to post off my computer, but I am only able to post on Igmur from my computer, and then link the Igmur pic here. I don't mind putting pics of parts of my house or of various projects on Igmur, but can't get past the reservations of putting a pic of myself out there to float forever on the internet through Igmur, so, it hasn't happened yet.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I have noticed is people tend to like the Socionics authors who has the same type, or perhaps Quadra type, or perhaps cognitive style as themselves. That makes sense, doesn't it? I don't know what Meged's type is, do you? I like Meged's Duality descriptions, and also, you are speaking here Gulenko having "heresies" - LOL, I like how you put that - but actually Gulenko is probably the author I like the VERY MOST out of all the different Socionics authors I have read - I have read plenty of Filitova articles, though not the book you mentioned, as well as LOTS of different Socionics authors, and I can't say that I have noticed any authors I just didn't like. Gulenko is the most relatable though, for me. I think his Erotic Attitudes are the bee's knees, and I love his narrative type-descriptions the best. So I am thinking whatever type he is, he must think compatibly with IEE, or maybe my cognitive style? Or favored elements? So i think he must not be so compatible with your type. At least that is what I've noticed about people's preferred Socionics authors (that there seems to be a type-compatibility element involved).
    Meged is IEE and Gulenko is LII, they both have HP cognition like you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    One of the things I have done wrong in the past is to try to show people all the interesting things about Socionics
    A book made for novices is best start. As in other regions.

    > I have noticed is people tend to like the Socionics authors who has the same type, or perhaps Quadra type, or perhaps cognitive style as themselves.

    Filatova has an experience of uni lectures to make her texts clear and close to classical theory borders. This is the main factors. She has the degree close to Ph.D. in Physics.

    > Hopefully Meged's style is compatible with Alpha Quadra!

    Many theories used by her are baseless and should be wrong, what may add more of significant mistakes to some parts of her texts. Mb hoped those her duality pairs descriptions do not use additional doubtful hypotheses. Her books I'd do not recommended for novices.

    > Could I be a J type?

    As an example, your talking has good structure and some nitpicking to suppose the possibility against IEE. Taking how often people mistake in own types, I trust to own typing only. For assured opinion I prefer to have a video.
    I recommend you to check own type. By geting opinions with typing data as a video. And by IR effects with people near which should fit good to the theory.
    The chance of your mistake in own type is significant.
    Last edited by Sol; 07-12-2020 at 12:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    For assured opinion I prefer to have a video.
    Speaking of...

    You have Joaquin Phoenix as an SLE and Rooney Mara as an EII and they are a having a baby together. Recalibrate the system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusal View Post
    Speaking of...

    You have Joaquin Phoenix as an SLE and Rooney Mara as an EII and they are a having a baby together. Recalibrate the system.
    hmm... I think they both might be EIE. Creative+ harmonizing subtypes.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    hmm... I think they both might be EIE. Creative+ harmonizing subtypes.
    Phoenix seems Fi valuing:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusal View Post
    Phoenix seems Fi valuing:
    I have to disagree. He seems even more EIE to me after seeing this second clip. And a nice Fi ignoring at the end of the interview:

    What did you learn about yourself...
    -Absolutely nothing
    And besides enjoying themselves when seeing the film, what do you hope people glean from it
    -We're done!
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    A book made for novices is best start. As in other regions.

    > I have noticed is people tend to like the Socionics authors who has the same type, or perhaps Quadra type, or perhaps cognitive style as themselves.

    Filatova has an experience of uni lectures to make her texts clear and close to classical theory borders. This is the main factors. She has the degree close to Ph.D. in Physics.

    > Hopefully Meged's style is compatible with Alpha Quadra!

    Many theories used by her are baseless and should be wrong, what may add more of significant mistakes to some parts of her texts. Mb hoped those her duality pairs descriptions do not use additional doubtful hypotheses. Her books I'd do not recommended for novices.

    > Could I be a J type?

    As an example, your talking has good structure and some nitpicking to suppose the possibility against IEE. Taking how often people mistake in own types, I trust to own typing only. For assured opinion I prefer to have a video.
    I recommend you to check own type. By geting opinions with typing data as a video. And by IR effects with people near which should fit good to the theory.
    The chance of your mistake in own type is significant.
    Hi Sol, I will check out the book sometime.

    I know my type quite well. But it is interesting to see your (different from my) approach to typing. My good structure in writing may have to do the fact that I edit a lot. In talking I speak (unfortunately sometimes) as I think, and that can lack structure or, at times, clear direction, but when writing I correct for clarification. What you call nitpicking may be due to the strange way IEE uses Ti, or it could be the result of the many years of my young adult life intimately connected with one who needed continual and extensive clarification (but was really just gaslighting; I just didn't know).

    Ah, Meged is IEE! No wonder I relate to her writing. But you do not. Maybe you are her Conflictor? Are you LSI, Sol? You definitely don't seem Halographic-Panoramic, nor the Vortical-Synergetic. You seem so opposed to Meged's thought processes, and also you take a completely different approach to typing than I do. Your way seems quite strictly methodical, not deviating from your preferred method, and preferred starting point, which makes me think Casual-Determinist. Which makes LSI a good fit for you I think.

    I feel I am seeing your type, Sol. Check out these questions, because I can see you saying yes to them all! Are you:

    - disciplined and responsible, and don't like to waste words?

    - Are you punctual, and do you appreciate punctuality in others?

    - Are you a good administrator, and do you make sure that your instructions and plans are carried out to your specifications?

    - Can you can impose discipline on others, especially those who do not fulfill their duties?

    - Do you collect encyclopedias and/or dictionaries?

    - Is your head fixed squarely on your shoulders, practically immovable?

    - Do do you have a mustache?
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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