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Thread: Do I mischaracterise Fi, does my bias against Fe lend itself to reductionism and are comparisons of Fi with Ti correct?

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    Default Do I mischaracterise Fi, does my bias against Fe lend itself to reductionism and are comparisons of Fi with Ti correct?

    Ti comparsions & my perception that Fe users rely on consensus

    Would it be fair to say, that just as Ti concerns logical unknowns/the bounds of logic and logic as independent of facts as they present themselves, but of those undergirding principles and mechanisms that produce those facts to begin with, that respectively, Fi concerns embarking on establishing sentiments independently, about matters that people daren't speak about and therefore of matters that Fe users likely seldom contemplate and reckon with (conjecture?) for there being no ready consensus to source how they're suppose to feel (is that too reductionistic and ignorant of me to think, that Fe users always need to know the consensus about something in order to determine how they feel?)

    Also, like how Ti is known as being the function of reverse engineering and theoretical deconstruction and reassembly - is it helpful to see Fi as serving such a role, or can this not apply to ethics and the sentiments?


    When there is no societal guidance

    I'd like to think that, when there is no societal guidance to hand, about either unprecedented ethical matters, or those that people have experienced but are simply too embarrassed to divulge about and serve as potential guides for - that that's when Fe in my opinion is truly handicapped.

    And I think that there are instances aplenty, in which matters and affairs being unprecedented at least, could be applicable. Insofar as our world becoming all the more globalised and one in which interaction is increasingly digitised.


    Questioning Taboos

    Relative to societal guidance and lack thereof, I find that taboos too are often a preoccupation of Fi users. To me, this is akin to how maybe a Ti user would want to work out the logic of something for themselves, rather than just accept the prearrangement of facts at their face value (even if that is to draw the same conclusion). I find that Fi users in kind want to 'do the working out', but about ethical matters that have supposedly been dealt with.

    This still desired for, even if they ultimately produce the same conclusions that Fe users have, who have established consensuses about what is taboo and why their statuses as such should not be questioned.

    The desire to independently foster and helm this interrogative process is in my opinion because of a lot of Fi users' sneaking suspicion, that few have done the working out themselves as it were, and just accepted the unwritten classifications as constituent to objective ethics.

    Fe as a social function & Fi as a function of self expression

    Also, I've seen it written that Fi isn't a social function, as that is what Fe is meant to be. So, assuming that to be true, would it be fair to regard Fi as being the function of 'self-expression'?

    Now of course, Fi users by no means have a monopoly on artistic endeavours, but surely Fe cannot both simultaneously be a social function and one of expression. Fi surely *has* to have a quality that Fe doesn't!

    Given that Fi is an introverted function and therefore cannot outlet itself as extroverted functions can, it makes sense then that Fi users would stereotypically be preoccupied with pursuits relative to self expression or 'finding oneself'. That perhaps, without modes of expression in the form of art to manifest Fi in a perceptual form, Fi would not exist.

    So lacking such an impetus, it's more to me that Fe users don't have an existential need to self expression less than an inability for it.

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    Among strong obstacles to understand the theory can be your mistake in own type.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNefarioious97 View Post
    Also, I've seen it written that Fi isn't a social function, as that is what Fe is meant to be. So, assuming that to be true, would it be fair to regard Fi as being the function of 'self-expression'?

    Now of course, Fi users by no means have a monopoly on artistic endeavours, but surely Fe cannot both simultaneously be a social function and one of expression. Fi surely *has* to have a quality that Fe doesn't!

    Given that Fi is an introverted function and therefore cannot outlet itself as extroverted functions can, it makes sense then that Fi users would stereotypically be preoccupied with pursuits relative to self expression or 'finding oneself'. That perhaps, without modes of expression in the form of art to manifest Fi in a perceptual form, Fi would not exist.

    So lacking such an impetus, it's more to me that Fe users don't have an existential need to self expression less than an inability for it.
    I think self-expression is a combination of many things. You can't relate it to just one function. Fe is important in art because it modifies the expression to be more relatable, to be according to the style etc. With the help of Fe the artist is able to bring his own inner vague experience out into the human realm.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
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    Fi is more like personal alignment. Can be stubborn conservative or the opposite. It is not like crafting oneself socially either because persona occurs outside of the type. For me it is just very hard to get committed to things at all without logical consideration hence I kind of overlook other's positions in those matters and focus on its logical execution of acceptability which then lacks the wiggle room of personal alignment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNefarioious97 View Post
    Ti comparsions & my perception that Fe users rely on consensus

    Would it be fair to say, that just as Ti concerns logical unknowns/the bounds of logic and logic as independent of facts as they present themselves, but of those undergirding principles and mechanisms that produce those facts to begin with, that respectively, Fi concerns embarking on establishing sentiments independently, about matters that people daren't speak about and therefore of matters that Fe users likely seldom contemplate and reckon with (conjecture?) for there being no ready consensus to source how they're suppose to feel (is that too reductionistic and ignorant of me to think, that Fe users always need to know the consensus about something in order to determine how they feel?)

    Also, like how Ti is known as being the function of reverse engineering and theoretical deconstruction and reassembly - is it helpful to see Fi as serving such a role, or can this not apply to ethics and the sentiments?


    When there is no societal guidance

    I'd like to think that, when there is no societal guidance to hand, about either unprecedented ethical matters, or those that people have experienced but are simply too embarrassed to divulge about and serve as potential guides for - that that's when Fe in my opinion is truly handicapped.

    And I think that there are instances aplenty, in which matters and affairs being unprecedented at least, could be applicable. Insofar as our world becoming all the more globalised and one in which interaction is increasingly digitised.


    Questioning Taboos

    Relative to societal guidance and lack thereof, I find that taboos too are often a preoccupation of Fi users. To me, this is akin to how maybe a Ti user would want to work out the logic of something for themselves, rather than just accept the prearrangement of facts at their face value (even if that is to draw the same conclusion). I find that Fi users in kind want to 'do the working out', but about ethical matters that have supposedly been dealt with.

    This still desired for, even if they ultimately produce the same conclusions that Fe users have, who have established consensuses about what is taboo and why their statuses as such should not be questioned.

    The desire to independently foster and helm this interrogative process is in my opinion because of a lot of Fi users' sneaking suspicion, that few have done the working out themselves as it were, and just accepted the unwritten classifications as constituent to objective ethics.

    Fe as a social function & Fi as a function of self expression

    Also, I've seen it written that Fi isn't a social function, as that is what Fe is meant to be. So, assuming that to be true, would it be fair to regard Fi as being the function of 'self-expression'?

    Now of course, Fi users by no means have a monopoly on artistic endeavours, but surely Fe cannot both simultaneously be a social function and one of expression. Fi surely *has* to have a quality that Fe doesn't!

    Given that Fi is an introverted function and therefore cannot outlet itself as extroverted functions can, it makes sense then that Fi users would stereotypically be preoccupied with pursuits relative to self expression or 'finding oneself'. That perhaps, without modes of expression in the form of art to manifest Fi in a perceptual form, Fi would not exist.

    So lacking such an impetus, it's more to me that Fe users don't have an existential need to self expression less than an inability for it.

    This post is so damn good. And yeah, you basically figured out Fi the same way I did, by using the symmetry of the system of typology. Good job. I don't categorically agree with all of it, but generally speaking you seem to have understood very simply what Fi is about. I wouldn't say that Fi is the function of self-expression, but that it's the expression of personal feeling that often runs contrary to accepted social feelings. The feeling responses of the Fi type are going to be similar to how the Ti type responds in a logical context. Just as Ti aims ultimately at a unique symmetry all its own, Fi is after a unique sympathy with itself. Just as Ti is about thought for its own sake, Fi is about feeling for its own sake. There's no need for it to have some purpose or intended use.

    If you want some humor, Ti has been described as conspiracy logic. I think I remember that from a DJ Arendee video. I guess Fi would be conspiracy feeling then.
    Last edited by Aramas; 07-11-2020 at 10:08 AM.

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    @DrNefarioious97: Here an Fi-based suggestion: break up your large sentences into smaller ones, so people don't have to analyse your writing to understand what it is your trying to convey.
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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    @DrNefarioious97

    The first part is also how I came to understand Fi as well (what Aramas said)
    As for Fe and Te for me it's like Fi and Ti, but put into a context, more about the form itself versus the content.. idk if that makes sense

    So, for example, when I speak with Fe PoLRs, anything relating to how I say something seems to pass right by them- they pay more attention to what is actually being said.
    With Fi PoLRs, I could say anything as long as I deliver it well, make it clear with my tone/body language how I feel about what I'm saying and why I'm saying it (because I care about them, usually), they will take it well. With a Fi-valuer they would get hurt or offended, which is a totally reasonable reaction from a Fi-valuing POV.

    "So lacking such an impetus, it's more to me that Fe users don't have an existential need to self expression less than an inability for it."

    Fe ego still has strong Fi. I disagree with this whole section. Fe and Fi are still just two sides of the same coin.

    "
    I'd like to think that, when there is no societal guidance to hand, about either unprecedented ethical matters, or those that people have experienced but are simply too embarrassed to divulge about and serve as potential guides for - that that's when Fe in my opinion is truly handicapped."

    Would you apply the same reasoning for Te? if a parallel situation can be imagined (I can't think of any right now)

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNefarioious97 View Post
    (is that too reductionistic and ignorant of me to think, that Fe users always need to know the consensus about something in order to determine how they feel?)
    Maybe you’re making it too linear. A Si+Fe type can understand what physical stress means and sympathize instantly with an exploited workshop laborer. A Fi+Se type, much more energetic, might have more trouble understanding why not everyone is succeeding if all they have to do is work and then work some more. There are blindspots.


    Quote Originally Posted by DrNefarioious97 View Post
    Now of course, Fi users by no means have a monopoly on artistic endeavours, but surely Fe cannot both simultaneously be a social function and one of expression.

    So lacking such an impetus, it's more to me that Fe users don't have an existential need to self expression less than an inability for it.
    Fi leads are good at expressing…Fi. You’ve mistaken that for what is truly going on in art. Even the seemingly lack of material for self-expression can be turned into one (watch Bergman’s 'Persona').

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    @DrNefarioious97: Here an Fi-based suggestion: break up your large sentences into smaller ones, so people don't have to analyse your writing to understand what it is your trying to convey.
    If by people you mean yourself, I'd be happy to clarify what was too convoluted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Just as Ti is about thought for its own sake, Fi is about feeling for its own sake. There's no need for it to have some purpose or intended use.
    That's an excellent encapsulation. I never really considered introverted functions working for their own sake's and yet it seems so obvious now. It reminds me of the observation that Fi-doms, particularly INFjs, enjoy feeling sad and wallowing in self pity, just because it gratifies their Fi.

    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    @DrNefarioious97

    As for Fe and Te for me it's like Fi and Ti, but put into a context, more about the form itself versus the content.. idk if that makes sense

    So, for example, when I speak with Fe PoLRs, anything relating to how I say something seems to pass right by them- they pay more attention to what is actually being said.
    With Fi PoLRs, I could say anything as long as I deliver it well, make it clear with my tone/body language how I feel about what I'm saying and why I'm saying it (because I care about them, usually), they will take it well. With a Fi-valuer they would get hurt or offended, which is a totally reasonable reaction from a Fi-valuing POV.
    Those PoLR examples are richly revealing of the polarity between what a deficiency in either Fe or Fi can do.

    Maybe this is why Fi dominants or auxiliaries often struggle to forgive people's perceived slights and betrayals of their feelings. Even when intentionality for it is provably lacking. The intent not to upset would be the form (Fe) and the actions irrespective of intent, the content (Fi).

    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post

    "I'd like to think that, when there is no societal guidance to hand, about either unprecedented ethical matters, or those that people have experienced but are simply too embarrassed to divulge about and serve as potential guides for - that that's when Fe in my opinion is truly handicapped."

    Would you apply the same reasoning for Te? if a parallel situation can be imagined (I can't think of any right now)
    Perhaps when information and facts are scarce, when procedure, protocol and 'tried and tested' methodology are of no bearing for not existing in unfamiliar circumstances.
    Last edited by DrNefarioious97; 07-12-2020 at 12:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNefarioious97 View Post
    If by people you mean yourself, I'd be happy to clarify what was too convoluted.



    That's an excellent encapsulation. I never really considered introverted functions working for their own sake's and yet it seems so obvious now. It reminds me of the observation that Fi-doms, particularly INFjs, enjoy feeling sad and wallowing in self pity, just because it gratifies their Fi.
    I'm not sure that's an accurate observation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNefarioious97 View Post
    It reminds me of the observation that Fi-doms, particularly INFjs, enjoy feeling sad and wallowing in self pity, just because it gratifies their Fi.
    That is more of an e4 thing I believe

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    You are on the right track. Just always keep in mind Fe and Fi are not a dichotomy of opposites. They cover different ground entirely and its not always about inward vs outward as they are shades of both.

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