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Thread: Relationship Advice for INFJ Female and ESTJ Male

  1. #1

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    Default Relationship Advice for INFJ Female and ESTJ Male

    Backstory:


    I had met my husband (ESTJ) who happened to be passing through my city while he was in a touring band, he was 27, I (INFJ) was 23. I knew of his band and met up with friends to watch his band play. It’s interesting to me about reading dual stories and how there is just that inexplicable need to meet again. That night we exchanged only a few words and all he knew was my first name but he was able to find my contact through mutual friends/Facebook and we begin long distance dating.


    Fast forward to me moving to his city and how our relationship began. We dated for 5 years and married for 8 months. After the wedding I became depressed, I was spending so much effort planning the wedding and when it was all over I wasn’t prepared to go back to “reality”. His business was picking up even more and filling up his time. I was used to not seeing him weeknights but now weekends were out. I was tired of sitting at home those nights and so all I had was a few single girlfriends inviting me out on weekends. Id go out and was getting attention and feeling good about myself. Things led to another, with me meeting another man, having an emotional affair, thinking we were soulmates and essentially going into an irrational manic episode. Meanwhile this is so disturbing to me because I had never experienced anything like this. I was seeing patterns everywhere, and how my relationship was doomed with my husband, no way for me to see anything looking better in the future. I began closing out my husband and friends, not eating, over exercising. Big mistake was not going to therapy, but ya know hindsight. No one was prepared or had seen something like this come from me.


    Now I never knew of Socionics when we met and it just so happened our relationship started organically. I can’t say for either of us that we had any type of dual relationships before each other, neither of us had really dated a lot. We always were sweet to each other. Had 2/3 fights in all the years together. No bickering, very supportive, a power couple if you will.


    So heres the sad ending. I left our home and rented an apartment nearby and 3 months later he filed for divorce and I agreed to because he didn’t want to work on anything /didn’t consider it salvageable and forced my hand, I couldn’t really object because I was the one to leave. No where was I equipped to have enough knowledge about myself and life to handle this happening to me. So I began my research and what led me to Socionics and I have been filling my brain to the brim to get a better handle on the situation.


    Anyway I miss and love this man terribly. I wanted to reconcile a month after I left but he said he had moved on. I tried many tactics to win him over, thoughtful gifts, meals to his place, writing to his family, anything I could do to make his life easier. Even before our divorce is sent in, he posts photos on Instagram of a girl he knew who dated a friend of his in another state from his touring days. He has been in long distance thing with her for about a year now. She’s is the complete opposite of me in terms of style and interests. My guess is she is likely an ISFP, he was always drawn to those whimsical, carefree types before he met me lol.


    I’ve been respectful for the most part with his relationship and only have been intrusive 2 or 3x over the year. Anyway last week we talked for 3 hours on his drive to move there. It felt good to talk and I wanted to hear his side on what he thought happened between us. He saw it as me having a manic episode and I asked if we had any issues and he said no, that maybe if I did speak up more this wouldn’t have happened. I mean he wouldn’t have married me if there were any red flags. He’s a cerebral guy, thinks with his head first. With that said....
    Do ESTJs ever take the time to reflect on what happened? Do you think he will ever regret it? Can this relationship really work between ESTJ male + ISFP female? He is very closed off from talking about his relationship and I know I have to respect his decisions, and beside he ignores any insights I give him. He says to this day that he loves me and believes in me 100%. Life was never this painful and how and where do I go from here??

  2. #2
    Peter, The Rock, The Machine onfireee's Avatar
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    I’m sorry @Samfree13, but you fucked up.

    I can’t see things turning around and I’d recommend u go no contact so that both of u guys can move on.

    I’m surprised he wasn’t harsher… If that was me it woulda been automatic black eye + kicked to the curb

    Quote Originally Posted by Samfree13 View Post
    Fast forward to me moving to his city and how our relationship began. We dated for 5 years and married for 8 months. After the wedding I became depressed
    Lesson learned for next time – plan ahead. After 5 years things tend to get comfortable because the attraction has worn off. You became depressed because u had no purpose

    I was spending so much effort planning the wedding and when it was all over I wasn’t prepared to go back to “reality”. His business was picking up even more and filling up his time. I was used to not seeing him weeknights but now weekends were out. I was tired of sitting at home those nights and so all I had was a few single girlfriends inviting me out on weekends. Id go out and was getting attention and feeling good about myself.
    This is where u fucked up. Once ur married, u can’t be going out with ur single friends lol. U befriend or seek other people at similar life stages such as other moms. They will help u stay accountable and u can learn their wisdom

    Things led to another, with me meeting another man, having an emotional affair, thinking we were soulmates and essentially going into an irrational manic episode. Meanwhile this is so disturbing to me because I had never experienced anything like this. I was seeing patterns everywhere, and how my relationship was doomed with my husband, no way for me to see anything looking better in the future
    No, u knew exactly what this would lead to, don’t lie to urself or anyone here.

    I began closing out my husband and friends, not eating, over exercising. Big mistake was not going to therapy, but ya know hindsight. No one was prepared or had seen something like this come from me.
    I really hope this was a good lesson… Marriage is no joke… I’m not inspired myself with the culture in America - getting married is pretty much like rolling dice at a casino.

    Now I never knew of Socionics when we met and it just so happened our relationship started organically. I can’t say for either of us that we had any type of dual relationships before each other, neither of us had really dated a lot. We always were sweet to each other. Had 2/3 fights in all the years together. No bickering, very supportive, a power couple if you will
    Duality is overrated/stupid imo and I wouldnt waste ur time on it for your sanity.

    Just tell yourself its over and do not contact him…. It will only slow things down for u

    So heres the sad ending. I left our home and rented an apartment nearby and 3 months later he filed for divorce and I agreed to because he didn’t want to work on anything /didn’t consider it salvageable and forced my hand, I couldn’t really object because I was the one to leave. No where was I equipped to have enough knowledge about myself and life to handle this happening to me. So I began my research and what led me to Socionics and I have been filling my brain to the brim to get a better handle on the situation.
    If he took u back he’d be reminded every night of u sucking the other dudes dick. That's psychologically damaging. It makes my blood boil thinkin about that

    Duality can’t overcome that.

    Ur demoted to hoe status. He doesn't owe u a dime

    Anyway I miss and love this man terribly. I wanted to reconcile a month after I left but he said he had moved on. I tried many tactics to win him over, thoughtful gifts, meals to his place, writing to his family, anything I could do to make his life easier. Even before our divorce is sent in, he posts photos on Instagram of a girl he knew who dated a friend of his in another state from his touring days. He has been in long distance thing with her for about a year now. She’s is the complete opposite of me in terms of style and interests. My guess is she is likely an ISFP, he was always drawn to those whimsical, carefree types before he met me lol.
    Doesn't matter. Even if u licked his asshole every night it’d still be a steep hill to climb, sorry

    I’ve been respectful for the most part with his relationship and only have been intrusive 2 or 3x over the year. Anyway last week we talked for 3 hours on his drive to move there. It felt good to talk and I wanted to hear his side on what he thought happened between us. He saw it as me having a manic episode and I asked if we had any issues and he said no, that maybe if I did speak up more this wouldn’t have happened. I mean he wouldn’t have married me if there were any red flags. He’s a cerebral guy, thinks with his head first.
    Stop talking to him. It will only prolong ur suffering

    Do ESTJs ever take the time to reflect on what happened? Do you think he will ever regret it? Can this relationship really work between ESTJ male + ISFP female? He is very closed off from talking about his relationship and I know I have to respect his decisions, and beside he ignores any insights I give him. He says to this day that he loves me and believes in me 100%. Life was never this painful and how and where do I go from here??
    ESTJs are savages and if u break their loyalty… I’m sorry but it’s over, plain and simple.

    First, u need to move on. Go no contact- zero messages, email, phone, text, nothing.

    Second, please reconsider whether u are mature enough to do another marriage

    The purpose of a marriage is to raise a family (and ur chances of success exponentially increases as well)

    Goodluck
    Last edited by onfireee; 06-27-2020 at 02:49 AM.

  3. #3
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    I’m so sorry. I can hear and feel your regret and hurting. Unfortunately you have to try to move on. Take it as life experience because you were young
    You can pm me if you want to repeat again and again your emotional pain. I used to do the same and I’m here to listen and be a friend

    Maritsa
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Do ESTJs ever take the time to reflect on what happened?

    Yes! ESTJ live in the past and recall past relationships and feelings.

    Do you think he will ever regret it?

    He loved you once, he always loves you.

    Can this relationship really work between ESTJ male + ISFP female?

    It's not a happy relationship. It's not like duality.

    He is very closed off from talking about his relationship and I know I have to respect his decisions, and beside he ignores any insights I give him.

    Yes because he doesn't want to think about negativity

    He says to this day that he loves me and believes in me 100%.

    Like I said above...love you once love you always

    Life was never this painful and how and where do I go from here??

    Find another dual <3 There are so many wonderful ESTJ men out there. You are a rare type...need I remind you. But please be careful as to not date an ass hole. There are many screwed up ESTJ out there too.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  5. #5

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    Damn this was a savage response. I suppose nobody has given me any truly harsh dose of reality and you certainly provided that.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post

    First, u need to move on. Go no contact- zero messages, email, phone, text, nothing.

    Second, please reconsider whether u are mature enough to do another marriage

    The purpose of a marriage is to raise a family (and ur chances of success exponentially increases as well)

    Goodluck
    no peter

    She doesn't need to brake contact with him as he values ethics of relationships and they have known each other for a long time. He would want the friendship
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  7. #7
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samfree13 View Post
    Damn this was a savage response. I suppose nobody has given me any truly harsh dose of reality and you certainly provided that.
    what was savage?
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    Do ESTJs ever take the time to reflect on what happened?

    Yes! ESTJ live in the past and recall past relationships and feelings.

    Do you think he will ever regret it?

    He loved you once, he always loves you.

    Can this relationship really work between ESTJ male + ISFP female?

    It's not a happy relationship. It's not like duality.

    He is very closed off from talking about his relationship and I know I have to respect his decisions, and beside he ignores any insights I give him.

    Yes because he doesn't want to think about negativity

    He says to this day that he loves me and believes in me 100%.

    Like I said above...love you once love you always

    Life was never this painful and how and where do I go from here??

    Find another dual <3 There are so many wonderful ESTJ men out there. You are a rare type...need I remind you. But please be careful as to not date an ass hole. There are many screwed up ESTJ out there too.
    Thank you Maritsa! You are very sweet and I have seen your posts before. I appreciate your wisdom in these areas and will definitely reach out privately. Your points are what I’ve been feeling but it’s like I want to stuff them away because it hurts knowing this person still cares. Aside from Peter’s sadistic views which might be easier to stomach if that was the case.
    I’ve never met any ESTJs besides him,although now I know that’s what I’m looking for, but it feels wrong to peruse something that was already good to begin with. At least he’s trying to make something happen with someone very much opposite of me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    what was savage?
    Sorry this was to the above response from Peter. Learning how to use this forum and response windows. :X

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    xerxe xerxe's Avatar
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    @Samfree13

    I'm sorry to hear about what happened.

    To begin with, I suggest that you familiarize yourself with Socionics notation. From the way you capitalize the P/J, it isn't clear whether you are still using MBTI. The types and functions are defined a little bit differently between the two systems, and Socionics uses small case p/j to differentiate irrational and rational. For what it's worth, based on the content of your posts, I believe that INFj is a reasonable type for you.


    ISFp-ESTj is called a 'supervision' relationship and is not a particularly good romantic one. I would anticipate striking differences in values that would make the relationship filled with misunderstandings and embarrassment, differences that would be apparent very quickly.

    I suspect that the "ISFP" is really another INFj or perhaps an ISFj. The ESTj-ISFj relationship is called 'semi-duality'; these are easy to start, as partners can find each other interesting if there are strong shared interests (such as similar hobbies or occupations). But, they are also "reset" periodically when a partner does something that clashes with the other partner's personal values.

    The ISFP may also be an ISTp, which is the ESTj's mirror. This can be an interesting relationship, and it is often a relationship found between best pals, but the level of understanding would be much lower compared to duality. It can be stable due to shared values and interests, however.

    Sadly, I cannot (and probably shouldn't) provide any more advice as I don't have very deep knowledge of ESTj-INFj interactions.

  11. #11
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    @Samfree13

    I'm sorry to hear about what happened.

    To begin with, I suggest that you familiarize yourself with Socionics notation. From the way you capitalize the P/J, it isn't clear whether you are still using MBTI. The types and functions are defined a little bit differently between the two systems, and Socionics uses small case p/j to differentiate irrational and rational. For what it's worth, based on the content of your posts, I believe that INFj is a reasonable type for you.


    ISFp-ESTj is called a 'supervision' relationship and is not a particularly good romantic one. I would anticipate striking differences in values that would make the relationship filled with misunderstandings and embarrassment, differences that would be apparent very quickly.

    I suspect that the "ISFP" is really another INFj or perhaps an ISFj. The ESTj-ISFj relationship is called 'semi-duality'; these are easy to start, as partners can find each other interesting if there are strong shared interests (such as similar hobbies or occupations). But, they are also "reset" periodically when a partner does something that clashes with the other partner's personal values.

    The ISFP may also be an ISTp, which is the ESTj's mirror. This can be an interesting relationship, and it is often a relationship found between best pals, but the level of understanding would be much lower compared to duality. It can be stable due to shared values and interests, however.

    Sadly, I cannot (and probably shouldn't) provide any more advice as I don't have very deep knowledge of ESTj-INFj interactions.
    there's no j/p switch
    I'm infJ in both systems
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    Thats not how it works in the real world maritsa

    What if an ESTJ killed and ate all ur children

    Would ur little Fi apply then
    She's the one who cheated and he still loves her and wants to have communication with her. Your scenario doesn't apply here
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  13. #13
    xerxe xerxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    there's no j/p switch
    Yes there is.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samfree13 View Post
    Sorry this was to the above response from Peter. Learning how to use this forum and response windows. :X
    Here's a dating profile I used to attract my husband online I'm giving it to you to copy and paste when you are ready to find a dual

    If you are dating and want to find an ESTJ, our dual... here’s the profile that I wrote that landed me my husband. You can copy and paste
    “I'm not seeking myself in a relationship. I seek to compliment and be complimented in my relationships. I appreciate someone with well developed esthetic sense who is good at organizing, observant of other's actions, pedantic, and interested in worldly things. I love to give moral support and like being there for people so that they can vent. I'm looking for an extravert, who values their relationships very highly and despite getting frequently short and difficult wants their love. Extraverts like to show their skills and work to people as they like the attention...may not be any person...may be friends nevertheless they are more willing to be placed up front and on stage. Someone who likes to advise people to take the most logical action! (someone who goes shopping with you and compares all the similar items of the same kind and isn't afraid to engage in its workings, tells you to open the package to see "how" it works, looks at the price and says it's too much lol). Visually detailed! (Says..."It doesn't match your kitchen" lol) Funny! (LAUGES AT THE SILLY THINGS). I don't tend to be in balance with someone who is "easy-going" as I tend to have similar qualities. I'm much better suited with someone more tense. Someone who believes in "nothing by force." I'm also very sensitive and I understand the sensitive qualities in others so I actively strive to eliminate the things around them that make them feel uncomfortable as comfort in my surroundings is important to me.
    I'm good with time and manage it well so I can take a lot of stress and frustration away by writing events on a callendar and even arrange time and work so well that a person who is normally stressed or forgetful will be able to have that managed. I believe in high quality in work and whatever I undertake, be it washing dishes to fixing something, I do it well so I appreciate someone who pays attention to their work "all I do I do well" and not just micky mouses things. If I were asked what kind of a person that I am I would answer merciful and compassionate and not the fake compassion where from a distance sympathy is shown, I mean where affection is given. Once in a while I like to escape to a nice place like [name a place you like] and enjoy myself at a pleasant environment. It would be nice to have the company of someone who likes going places with others. I tend to like independance and a degree of autonomy, I'm not needy and I have hobbies and interest that I pursue. I am not looking for the alpha male type. I have a high standards and have great sense of self respect as the body is your temple and my home is like my fortress. I hope that you too have similar values. *I think most human beings are amazing*”
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  15. #15
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    Yes there is.
    no there isn't. MBTI equates the definition of Fi to Fe for INFJs because they are covering up a mistake in how they assigned the functions. Definition wise, INFJ are both the same in both systems as they are both described as "empaths"
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  16. #16
    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    Hi, Samfree13.

    I think that @xerxe's advice to you to familiarize yourself with Socionics notation is good. We can't really make accurate Socionics assessments of your interactions with another type if neither of you are typed correctly.

    However, let's assume that an ESTj (Socionics LSE) would actually be a member of a traveling band, which is possible, if unlikely. Let's assume that you are either a Socionics Dual (INFj) or an MBTI Conflictor (INFJ) and lets look at only what you said happened.

    You met him when you were 23 and were not familiar with personality theory. You dated for five years and then got married and then you decided to look at other possibilities. This sounds very enneagram 4 to me, but both Socionics INFj's (EII) and MBTI INFJ's (IEI) frequently self-identify as ennneatype 4's. Quite frankly, I think being an e4 is the heart of your problem, not your Socionics ITR. That, or immaturity and unrealistic expectations for relationships. But lets proceed anyway.

    If you are the ESTj's Conflictor (an IEI), you would have broken up soon after being forced into close contact. It takes about eight months of daily life to change your hopes and dreams into hard reality, and then it usually takes another year to disengage. The world is full of two-year duration LSE-IEI failed relationships.

    If you are the ESTj's Dual (an EII), and you might be, because nowhere in your description of your life together did you mention any of the problems associated with function mismatch, and the ESTj seems like he didn't have any complaints about you, either, other than the fact that you basically left him, then the relationship ended because you left it.

    As for getting him back, I doubt if that is going to happen. Once a Te-type makes a decision, it's pretty much carved in stone. It took him eight months to come to that decision because it involves his inner feelings (Fi), which he sucks at using, but I don't think he's going to change it, no matter how much he likes you as a person. He might have found a fairly poor match in the woman he replaced you with, but he's not going to see that for a while and even if he does, I doubt if he's going to backtrack to you. You already showed him that you left the relationship. In a judger's mind, that's your true self.

    I'm an ENTj and I'm divorced from a woman who moved out to live one mile away from me. It took me a long time to decide to divorce my wife, but once I made that decision, no power on earth can change it or get me to go back to her. We have a son in common and I see him frequently, and she and I talk. I consider her to be someone I like and am friends with, if distantly. She sometimes asks me how I'm doing. I'm doing very well, thank you. Better than when we were together. Because to a one-dimensional Fi person like myself, being alone is better than being with an unreliable partner.

    When I decided to get divorced, this very strong image came to my mind. It was the image of a pencil, snapped in half in the middle. It's splintered and broken, and no amount of wishing is putting that back together again.

    I wish you the very best luck in your next relationship. I'd advise you to work on the question of why you weren't satisfied with what you had, when you finally got it.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 06-27-2020 at 03:30 PM.

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    xerxe xerxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    no there isn't. MBTI equates the definition of Fi to Fe for INFJs because they are covering up a mistake in how they assigned the functions. Definition wise, INFJ are both the same in both systems as they are both described as "empaths"
    The MBTI INFJ uses Fe instead of Fi. That makes them very different.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    The MBTI INFJ uses Fe instead of Fi. That makes them very different.
    like I said they assign the definition of Fi to Fe
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    xerxe xerxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    like I said they assign the definition of Fi to Fe
    So we're saying the same thing?

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Sam, @UDP an LSE here can help answer some of your questions but I kinda know what he will say that some of these traits may have a difference based on the enneagram
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    So we're saying the same thing?
    I'm saying that INFJ is INFj

    MBTI error in assigning NiFe to INFJ because Fe means the same thing there as Fi in Socionics
    Though the test indicates INFJ because it's based on a four letter system their test is not based on Functions
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samfree13 View Post
    Anyway I miss and love this man terribly.
    It's not clear how to take into account the disorder about which you've said. How much your psyche was different during symptoms. So this disorder will not be taken into account with an assumption that the related to situation was same in you all the time, without principle switching to short-time of your "other".

    What types are there is not clear too. Mb you are not duals or even have no good IR. There are often mistakes in types and you even have no a competence in typing to be assured in your opinion. So your situation is better to discuss without types.
    Good IR types is one of factors anyway. They help to establish a friendship. When you do not communicate, do not much together, do not live by interests and life views of each other - it's not good friendship and so types mean lesser.

    -

    In case you'd loved seriously you'd felt good in relations. Did not go away from him on monthes, and mb even got relations with other one. It can be significant feelings to him, but other. Love includes a friendship, while you had a lack of friendship to him and lack it still. You are accented on yourself, but not on interests of both of you.
    Generally, feelings and relations can be improved. When you are becoming better friends to each other, when you more join your minds and lives in one. It's becomes more important when after a time a sexual interest reduces. Also better friendly feelings would supported sexuality too.
    The problems could be fixed when you were a pair with arising problems, but instead of changing the situation - you personally distanced and later departed. He should saw your bad mood and did nothing while it was his duty to care you was happy. You understood you are feeling badly and did no efforts to improve the friendship and personal distance in relations and such to get better mood in them for both of you. It's common when pairs have no good friendship and deep love, but are together by reasons as duties, material interests, sexual attraction, kids and other cooperations. Though, the possibility to establish better friendship should exist for them.
    Instead of becoming closer as persons to feel better in the relations - you departed as persons during monthes. This was the basis for later divorce.

    If you want to return him - become his good and close friend to support him and to share his life. If you'll can - there will be a chance on another marriage. Also think mb with other man to get good relations is possibly too. With other one relations may be easier to get and they can be not worse and mb even better than with him. There should be many good enough people.
    Though, I understand that to allow another human to enter to your heart is not easy and may happen not often. Decide it yourself - what way to follow and where are better chances to get good marriage.

    Forget about types and that you are duals, as it can be other. Search relations by your heart - who will be perceived as close and good friend for you. Good IR is about this, anyway. You may get a friendship by different factors and when you'll seek a friendship you'll have a higher chance on good IR type too. Direct typing needs significant time and efforts to develop skills and be assured that you'll find by this way good IR type. You have no this time. But you may feel people which can be your friends and so to get higher possibility for another good marriage.

    > I wanted to reconcile a month after I left but he said he had moved on. I tried many tactics to win him over, thoughtful gifts, meals to his place, writing to his family, anything I could do to make his life easier.

    If it's base T type. The most what he wants from others is emotional support and inspiration. They need to be liked and admired, their feelings should be listened by you. They value to see good feelings to them.
    Material stuff impresses base N types mostly. His family is important if he's close friends with them what is rare.

    If you'll tune psychicly to other human you should understand what he wants - you alike become him. An intuitive compassion establishes. Then do what you feel he needs, not what you think about this or what you'd liked to get yourself or what traditions say.

    > Do ESTJs ever take the time to reflect on what happened?

    Yes. But relations is weak region to think much about it. To talk about this in details, especially whith the ones we have a conflict (you had it), - is not what is done in common.

    > Do you think he will ever regret it?

    As he should to dislike what happened, he thought about reasons. His own behavior was a part of factors. He thought what to do other to reduce chances to repeat negative experience.
    Also, if he had significant feelings to you then may regret on feelings level too that situation made a harm to you too.

    > Can this relationship really work between ESTJ male + ISFP female?

    The chance you are right about both types is <20%. You may mistake and there be good IR alike ESTJ + ISFJ, for example.
    It's possibly to have relations with any type. Types are important where important is friendship alike in marriges and long relations. On a distance with some meets per a month, in short relations based mainly on sexual attraction - it's lesser important.
    It's rarely when with very bad IR people do long relations.

    > He is very closed off from talking about his relationship and I know I have to respect his decisions, and beside he ignores any insights I give him.

    T types talk more about emotions when perceive you closer friend to trust. Weak region - easier to harm. This may take a time to trust you more. Also you are not neutral to that theme and he protects what has there.

    > He says to this day that he loves me and believes in me 100%

    If significant feelings were, they may stay in some degree for long. Feelings may be arised higher again too.
    To love predisposes: respect (smartness, strenght) + friendship feeling (soul, heart sympathy) + sexual passion.
    It's where you may direct the efforts to improve the feelings. To become good friend to him. But no guarantee that you'll do or get new serious relations. To be good friends may be a value too.

    > Life was never this painful and how and where do I go from here?

    how you'll want
    try to do not repeat mistakes. when you got a man, but failed to be good friends with him and this was a base for emotional problems for both

    P.S.
    "love this man terribly" is closer to Fe value talking, than Fi
    Last edited by Sol; 06-28-2020 at 01:29 PM.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    xerxe xerxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    I'm saying that INFJ is INFj

    MBTI error in assigning NiFe to INFJ because Fe means the same thing there as Fi in Socionics
    Though the test indicates INFJ because it's based on a four letter system their test is not based on Functions
    Not really; MBTI's description of Fe is very different from Socionics Fi. But I don't really care, so whatever....

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    Honestly, I have to agree with onfiree. It was pretty harsh, but I think it seems from what you are saying it may be in your best interest to move on, try a new relationship, see how it goes. I mean usually if it doesn’t work out the first time.. I’m not saying you have to cut ties with your ex. I know how it feels to have a relationship with someone and then it’s gone. And maybe, did you think that maybe you were unhappy in it and now that he’s gone and you feel like you can’t have him, that it’s making you want him more? Also, put yourself in his place. How would you feel if it was he who cheated on you? Would you ever forgive him, would it forever be there in the room with you, between you, could you trust again. I don’t know if you’ve ever been cheated on, but it feels like the greatest betrayal, I feel killing me would have been kinder, and it can cause lasting trauma. Your old relationship is dead and you have to create a new one. There is no going back to how things once were. You are young, you don’t have any kids. The sky’s the limit!
    Pisces 🌞 Pisces 🌚 Virgo Rising

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    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    Hi Samfree, very brave of you to come here and open up so candidly.

    There is no need for me to repeat what has already been said, so I'd only like to add the following: the very fact that you expose yourself in a self-conscious, honest manner, to me is a sign that chances are very high that you are indeed a Socionics INFj. Then to me the question becomes: how did this INFj end up 'cheating' on her husband? You say you did it because you wanted and like the attention, and this is where the problem actually is, for a healthy, mature INFj would have considered what the consequences would have been to another person of her actions. To put it very, very harsh: you completely failed as an INFj, and it is for that reason alone your husband will not return. If there is one thing an ESTj admires an INFj for, it is their integrity, their moral character. Introverted Feeling is the LSE's dual seeking function, and for the purpose of this discussion, Fi practically equates to integrity. You screwed up in the aspect of what is the most important quality in another person to him.

    So how to solve this dilemma of yours? One simple characteristic of emotionally mature people is that they care less about what other people think of them. Mature people do not need other people so much to feed them a sense of self-esteem. So, you need to find a way to let this need for attention that you spoke about go. Attention, in itself, is not a bad thing, but it needs to be consumed in appropriate ways, and in moderate quantities. True self-esteem is generated from within, from ones own thoughts, feelings and actions. Perhaps, like you said yourself, therapy is not a bad idea. The child in you should not be in charge any longer. Perhaps it is time to take control and allow yourself to become a true, mature INFj, one that does what INFjs do, which is: the right thing!
    Last edited by consentingadult; 06-28-2020 at 11:38 AM.
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    Not really; MBTI's description of Fe is very different from Socionics Fi. But I don't really care, so whatever....
    Why do I have to waste my time explaining things in detail to people who can look up the information for themselves
    Mbti associated concerts for other people’s emotions as Fe this is why they assign INFJ with Fe not correctly having understood Jung’s Fe as external emotions not having concern for others unexpressed emotions or other people’s emotions
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  27. #27
    xerxe xerxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    Why do I have to waste my time explaining things in detail to people who can look up the information for themselves
    Mbti associated concerts for other people’s emotions as Fe this is why they assign INFJ with Fe not correctly having understood Jung’s Fe as external emotions not having concern for others unexpressed emotions or other people’s emotions
    I don't understand what you're trying to say. Your second sentence is a run-on sentence that can be interpreted in several different ways.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    I don't understand what you're trying to say. Your second sentence is a run-on sentence that can be interpreted in several different ways.
    Muti associated concern for other people’s emotions as Fe
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    xerxe xerxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    Muti associated concern for other people’s emotions as Fe
    Nah, MBTI's description of Fe is different from Socionics Fi.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    Nah, MBTI's description of Fe is different from Socionics Fi.
    repeating myself. MBTI Fe = Socionics Fi
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    xerxe xerxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    repeating myself. MBTI Fe = Socionics Fi
    I don't believe you.

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    Samfree13, I like your candid post. Like Adam said, it seems unlikely that a LSE would be in a traveling band. But assuming he is, and that you are an INFj, I am sorry that your relationship ended and for the pain of now realizing the treasure you lost, but I also agree with the others here that it is very, very unlikely he will EVER have a change of heart and be willing to go back to the relationship that caused him such pain of rejection. He just doesn't have the vision and the hope to believe in that possibility that it won't happen again with you. He needs to truly see the logical reason to trust, and how can that be given?

    He can likely see that in his ISFp-girl, who is likely very loyal - and that loyal quality might have been a big attraction-factor to him, after your betrayal. She probably will always bear that quality of strong loyalty and commitment, which may well keep him with her, in spite of the expected Supervision-relationship annoyances, if he dreads a repeat-betrayal enough. She will stay in spite of being the worse end of Supervision, and will continually strive to do everything thing she can to adjust herself to be whatever he needs her to be.

    You are wondering about this ESTj/ISFp relation your ex is in, and I understand that. I was curious what my Benefactor ex's new Contrary relation must be like (not because i want him back!), and I have to guess from clues because I am not asking anyone. But I know two ESTj/ISFp couples well I can tell you about. One is my older brother, ESTj who had been in a long-term ISFp relationship, and the other couple I am good friends with here in town, who are in a second marriage for both. (Both couples are male ESTj/female ISFp's). In both of these Supervision relations I have felt sorry for and witnessed the difficulty of the ISFp being the Supervisee, and seen the genuine annoyance of the Supervisor over the Supervisee just being herself at times. But ISFp's have an inner steel core of loyalty that will just put up with it no matter the difficulty, and the Supervisor does benefit in this relation.

    My brother broke up with his long-term loyal ISFp girlfriend when a more enticing, interesting INFj came along, and it was devastating for her. (He later said to me, of ISFp, "She is a really NICE person!") I'd found out about the breakup when I saw her at the store, and cheerfully asked how things were, not having seen my (busy) brother in a few months, and she said, "Don't you know? He broke my heart."

    I felt so bad for her, though I had foreseen it from the beginning that she was Supervisee, and I could see her suffering the continual acts of his supervision when they were together. I had seen also that she showed more interest in the relationship than him, and I foresaw this painful breakup as being inevitable. But she had invested her whole heart and life and hope in him, and also, since my brother's ESFj longtime wife had previously left him for another man, she, with her lovely ISFp sympathy could see how deeply that had hurt him, and surely assumed her own super-loyalty and hyper-devotion would never end in a breakup by him. So she was truly shocked and broken when he ended it suddenly. [Sadly, I think he always saw her as a interim friend with benefits, and she believed they were creating permanence together.. Which doesn't make me proud of my brother. His role was selfish and unkind].

    My feeling sorry for her led me to communicate with her more, telling her about Socionics, hoping that she could see that she actually dodged a relationship that would always be bad for her, but she didn't see that, and was blinded by her desperation to somehow get him back, and used something I revealed about him in our conversations to make her pleading case to my brother (It NEVER works to plead and beg!) and my brother was annoyed at me for getting involved... oh, dear..

    The other couple of this type are my friends here in town. The ESTj was previously married to a woman who left him for another man - - after having previously had several other men! The last one was totally it for him. Pencil snapped. So he also got himself a faithful ISFp! They have been married over 15 years now, and will remain so, as they both see their marriage vows as sacred before God.

    Though she had had a good career she liked, she came with a young daughter and ESTj's extremely long work hours meant he could not be there to help, and having moved away from all her helpful family to where she knew no one, it was clearly best she did not work, and still hasn't, even though the daughter is off on her own now. She serves him, constantly - cooks, cleans, errands, goes on business trips with him (she will drive so he can do work in the car on the way to the out-of-town meetings, for example). And like other ISFps I know she is extremely thrifty so he still has lots of personal choices for his hard-earned money - and all her service enables him to be even busier. And she suffers his Supervision as an constant irritation, which she accepts.

    But the glue that makes this work, in spite of the inequality (besides commitment and vows, which the previously mentioned couple, my brother and his girlfriend, did not have) is they share a common bond of very strong devout faith, and they receive so many graces in their marriage, so many, that they are able to very gracefully handle their continual annoyances with each other. I see it in action. Which leads me to believe that the most difficult Socionics relations can thrive and survive with a common goal, attraction, common values and LOTS of Grace.*

    So, Samfree13, you said your ex has dated other ISFp's. Often people do pick the same relation types for their relationship partners. My ISTp brother always picks ESFp's for long-term relations - he has had 3 LTR's in his life, all ESFp's. In his case I think it is because he got used to that type and it feels safe and normal to him. But in other cases, I see folks as choosing a non-dual because of an unresolved key relationship in their life. Often they go for the same type, or a type close to that of the parent that always withheld their love, for example. I know an ESFp constantly drawn to ISTj boyfriends for that very reason.

    I think the advice here to cut ties with ex [accepting that you are friend-zoned FOREVER]. Accepting the near-impossibility of it ever being revived is the right advice. Most of us have had the experience of having to learn things the hard way, as you did here.

    Also acceptance is a great life skill, a gift you give yourself. After the breakup of my marriage the hardest part was being a single mom - I always fretted and regretted about my son having a broken home. But in hindsight, if only I had accepted that reality, sooner, I could have enjoyed those years more. I did enjoy them, but there was always present within a heaviness and sadness and worry from my non-acceptance of my reality. And inwardly railing against this new reality I was in was never going to change my reality! After some years, I went to a powerful prayer healing (guided) session, that finally brought me (among other things) acceptance - full and lasting acceptance, all at once. It made me feel so free, and light.

    I want to go so far as to say that the most important next step for you is not only acceptance of the situation, but acceptance of your own failing that caused it, and forgiveness of yourself. We all fall short of goodness and justice. I have been thinking about Purgatory lately, which is where most of us Heaven-bound folk go before they get to Heaven - because we have not yet become saints when we die, as have failed to learn the lessons of love we might have learned on earth, but didn't. So God in His very great love and mercy gives more time, and a perfect, safe place to learn what we did not yet learn on earth. And one of the most important things we learn? Its acceptance of ourselves and forgiveness of ourselves for our errors and sins against love. That's how important it is. So just as God loves you and mercifully forgives you your failings, so also you must love yourself and be merciful and accepting of yourself and your failings, too. You need both - God to do it for you - and you've got that - and you to do it for yourself. The first step to this is recognizing your error, and you already have here, so you have done most of the hard work already!

    ___________________
    *[This couple is Catholic, like me, and will attest that God's ordinary way of pouring out extraordinary Graces is through the Sacraments of His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. They believe this, as I do, and they are together constantly seeking to receive, and do receive, these graces. In fact they seek out every opportunity to receive God's constant outpouring of grace in this way more than any couple I know.]
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 06-29-2020 at 10:22 PM. Reason: typo
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  33. #33
    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    Nah, MBTI's description of Fe is different from Socionics Fi.
    I don't know why, but some people do seem quite sure that the 16 four-letter types in Socionics and MBTI don't match up, and the reason given is always extroverted and introverted functions like you say here. I studied MBTI in depth, actually studying several MBTI books in order to understand that whole theory thoroughly before ever stumbling on Socionics, and by that time I had typed many many people in my life definitively. I found immediately that Socionics and MBTI four-letter name types ALWAYS are the same. For me, in not one instance were the types different in the two systems. Socionics descriptions, and Renins, and subtypes just deepened my understanding of what I had identified as their type already.

    So I don't know why some people feel sure there is a difference in types moving from one system to the other. [I do know for sure that Socionics is a MUCH superior system of Jung's temperaments than MBTI]. I am never seeing what they are seeing, even though I know they are seeing something. But those who stand by that difference always, always mention the use of functions. So I have come to think that perhaps those who do that look at typing in a more systematic way, a sequential step by step way, rather than holistic. Just a guess.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  34. #34
    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Hi Samfree, very brave of you to come here and open up so candidly.

    There is no need for me to repeat what has already been said, so I'd only like to add the following: the very fact that you expose yourself in a self-conscious, honest manner, to me is a sign that chances are very high that you are indeed a Socionics INFj. Then to me the question becomes: how did this INFj end up 'cheating' on her husband? You say you did it because you wanted and like the attention, and this is where the problem actually is, for a healthy, mature INFj would have considered what the consequences would have been to another person of her actions. To put it very, very harsh: you completely failed as an INFj, and it is for that reason alone your husband will not return. If there is one thing an ESTj admires an INFj for, it is their integrity, their moral character. Introverted Feeling is the LSE's dual seeking function, and for the purpose of this discussion, Fi practically equates to integrity. You screwed up in the aspect of what is the most important quality in another person to him...
    I agree with what you said. At first I wondered if she wasn't INFj, but then I see no other reason to question her self-typing. INFj's tend to be, as you say, markedly outstanding in moral character and integrity. But then there are circumstances that entice one to act outside one's type, and in this case Samfree was suffering after-wedding letdown (we make too much of weddings these days), then faced with temptation while experiencing lonely aloneness...

    INFj's I know are loyal to a fault but one INFj cheated on her longtime husband. Her husband was a very likable, super friendly, but INFj fell for the advances of a real lady's man on the prowl that she met at work, and totally gave him her heart (which he ended up trampling on), but it was hot romance for a time. Divorce is hard, but they did that, and in in the process the now-ex husband revealed that, unbeknownst to her, he had cheated on her many times previous (while for her it was just this once), during those many years while she worked to support them and their kids while he earned many degrees, which he never used...

    ______________________________

    (For those interested in Intertype Relations, the above INFj was longtime married to ESFj. Lothario-lover was an ISTj, and she was impressed with his extreme tidy ways (in contrast to her ex's exhaustingly messy hoarding) and dedication to working to make money - he did not make a lot, but was careful and methodical with his time and resources, and took good care of what he had, quite in contrast to her ex's ADHD ways. Romance-type wise - you would think Caregiver would have been better for her, and she didn't really complain about that aspect of marriage, but got caught in LSI-lover's interest and advances. I think it is easy for Childlike to morph to role of Victim when partnered with Aggressor. It was compellingly exciting for her, but he left breaking her heart and kept returning to win it and dash it again. She seemed addicted to that drama before she got plenty of counseling and finally realized the great romance not a viable reality (he had this attachment disorder where he would win a girl and leave suddenly right when all was very good, break her heart, then come back, gain her heart again, and lather rinse repeat...). INFj's really know how to hang on...
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  35. #35
    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Oh, wow, that's hard, @Samfree13. My guess is the best thing you can do for your heart is invest in your health and growth. Therapy can be a big part of that, yes. The more sure and steady you can be internally, the easier it will be to not only figure out how best to interact (or not) with your ex but also approach the world and potential relationships (not just romantic).

    Regret, like its cousin bitterness, can be poisonous if it gets root. The feelings can have their spot, but you are so much more, and exploring and nurturing that "more" helps, IME.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()



    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

    "Fear wist not to evade as Love wist to pursue." - Francis Thompson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    Here's a dating profile I used to attract my husband online I'm giving it to you to copy and paste when you are ready to find a dual

    If you are dating and want to find an ESTJ, our dual... here’s the profile that I wrote that landed me my husband. You can copy and paste
    “I'm not seeking myself in a relationship. I seek to compliment and be complimented in my relationships. I appreciate someone with well developed esthetic sense who is good at organizing, observant of other's actions, pedantic, and interested in worldly things. I love to give moral support and like being there for people so that they can vent. I'm looking for an extravert, who values their relationships very highly and despite getting frequently short and difficult wants their love. Extraverts like to show their skills and work to people as they like the attention...may not be any person...may be friends nevertheless they are more willing to be placed up front and on stage. Someone who likes to advise people to take the most logical action! (someone who goes shopping with you and compares all the similar items of the same kind and isn't afraid to engage in its workings, tells you to open the package to see "how" it works, looks at the price and says it's too much lol). Visually detailed! (Says..."It doesn't match your kitchen" lol) Funny! (LAUGES AT THE SILLY THINGS). I don't tend to be in balance with someone who is "easy-going" as I tend to have similar qualities. I'm much better suited with someone more tense. Someone who believes in "nothing by force." I'm also very sensitive and I understand the sensitive qualities in others so I actively strive to eliminate the things around them that make them feel uncomfortable as comfort in my surroundings is important to me.
    I'm good with time and manage it well so I can take a lot of stress and frustration away by writing events on a callendar and even arrange time and work so well that a person who is normally stressed or forgetful will be able to have that managed. I believe in high quality in work and whatever I undertake, be it washing dishes to fixing something, I do it well so I appreciate someone who pays attention to their work "all I do I do well" and not just micky mouses things. If I were asked what kind of a person that I am I would answer merciful and compassionate and not the fake compassion where from a distance sympathy is shown, I mean where affection is given. Once in a while I like to escape to a nice place like [name a place you like] and enjoy myself at a pleasant environment. It would be nice to have the company of someone who likes going places with others. I tend to like independance and a degree of autonomy, I'm not needy and I have hobbies and interest that I pursue. I am not looking for the alpha male type. I have a high standards and have great sense of self respect as the body is your temple and my home is like my fortress. I hope that you too have similar values. *I think most human beings are amazing*”
    This is very cute! The bit with the calendars, so spot on, didn't realize it was a estj thing. He used to want me to write on the calendar when things were but I never did because I knew I would remember it, looking back I see that as an area I failed in. I suppose I saw humor in his type A ways.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samfree13 View Post
    This is very cute! The bit with the calendars, so spot on, didn't realize it was a estj thing. He used to want me to write on the calendar when things were but I never did because I knew I would remember it, looking back I see that as an area I failed in. I suppose I saw humor in his type A ways.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Hi, Samfree13.

    I think that @xerxe's advice to you to familiarize yourself with Socionics notation is good. We can't really make accurate Socionics assessments of your interactions with another type if neither of you are typed correctly.

    However, let's assume that an ESTj (Socionics LSE) would actually be a member of a traveling band, which is possible, if unlikely. Let's assume that you are either a Socionics Dual (INFj) or an MBTI Conflictor (INFJ) and lets look at only what you said happened.

    You met him when you were 23 and were not familiar with personality theory. You dated for five years and then got married and then you decided to look at other possibilities. This sounds very enneagram 4 to me, but both Socionics INFj's (EII) and MBTI INFJ's (IEI) frequently self-identify as ennneatype 4's. Quite frankly, I think being an e4 is the heart of your problem, not your Socionics ITR. That, or immaturity and unrealistic expectations for relationships. But lets proceed anyway.
    I believe you are onto something with the enneagram 4. I am not terribly familiar with it but did my time to look into it and I definitely think that played a role in it and you pretty much nailed it on the head regarding my expectations coupled with immaturity/lack of knowledge of myself. This experience for me has been enlightening and also terribly painful.


    To describe us further, he toured in a band after college. He dated the female singer (ISFP) and they had been signed to a fairly large label and so he was fulfilling his dream to be paid to play music. Obviously he knew his time was used in vain during this time but I think he didn't really have a whole lot going on besides that. He went to school to be a recording engineer but the economy took a shit after he opened his own studio and he lost the business. He is also a classically trained guitarist. He doesn’t write music, but arranges it. He cares more about the inner workings and will tell you about a song based on the recording quality, skill of the instrument, and the mechanics that went into it. On tour he was the “dad”, made sure everyone was in the car at the right time, packed properly. All the logistics. He is very well liked and respected in the music community. To this day he owns his own business and teaches private guitar lessons to upper class families. Works long hours and has more students he can take on. I supported him and making sure he had good relations with the families and his business grew exponentially from when we met. I essentially picked from his talents and told him what was worth pursuing and I believe that he benefited a lot from that. He no longer toured a year after we met.


    After reading many descriptions the thing that didn’t fit was that he wasn’t very handy. Funny how he wanted to hire someone to hang our tv but I insisted I could do it and that I did! In his younger years he had no sense of style but he was also very overweight. As we became more successful, his style did increase but mostly with what I said would look good.


    About me well..outwardly I am tattooed, listen to punk music and go to shows often. The music community was just something I felt accepted in and how I’ve made friends over the years. I don't play any instruments and am not musically inclined. I started my own enamel pin company and have organized events and united others who were also doing similar things with their artwork. During the day I am an office manager of a dental laboratory and fabricate prosthetic teeth.

    I did compare the results I received for my type to Kierseys findings (which I don't think holds much weight in terms of perfect matches imo) and considering romantic attitudes (childlike and caregiver definitely feels the most comfortable to me).


    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    you are the ESTj's Conflictor (an IEI), you would have broken up soon after being forced into close contact. It takes about eight months of daily life to change your hopes and dreams into hard reality, and then it usually takes another year to disengage. The world is full of two-year duration LSE-IEI failed relationships.

    If you are the ESTj's Dual (an EII), and you might be, because nowhere in your description of your life together did you mention any of the problems associated with function mismatch, and the ESTj seems like he didn't have any complaints about you, either, other than the fact that you basically left him, then the relationship ended because you left it.

    As for getting him back, I doubt if that is going to happen. Once a Te-type makes a decision, it's pretty much carved in stone. It took him eight months to come to that decision because it involves his inner feelings (Fi), which he sucks at using, but I don't think he's going to change it, no matter how much he likes you as a person. He might have found a fairly poor match in the woman he replaced you with, but he's not going to see that for a while and even if he does, I doubt if he's going to backtrack to you. You already showed him that you left the relationship. In a judger's mind, that's your true self.

    I'm an ENTj and I'm divorced from a woman who moved out to live one mile away from me. It took me a long time to decide to divorce my wife, but once I made that decision, no power on earth can change it or get me to go back to her. We have a son in common and I see him frequently, and she and I talk. I consider her to be someone I like and am friends with, if distantly. She sometimes asks me how I'm doing. I'm doing very well, thank you. Better than when we were together. Because to a one-dimensional Fi person like myself, being alone is better than being with an unreliable partner.

    When I decided to get divorced, this very strong image came to my mind. It was the image of a pencil, snapped in half in the middle. It's splintered and broken, and no amount of wishing is putting that back together again.

    I wish you the very best luck in your next relationship. I'd advise you to work on the question of why you weren't satisfied with what you had, when you finally got it.
    I really appreciate you sharing your story with me and kind regards. You made a lot of sense in how I relate to him and sometimes that's very hard for me to deal with. Obviously in my own mind I think it is salvageable because I see so many possibilities for us, as if this is just a hurdle and that over time when life begins to grate on us on more and more then we might both learn how much we truly did mean to one another. But there can be no us if he views this experience as negatively as the way you described.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samfree13 View Post
    I believe you are onto something with the enneagram 4. I am not terribly familiar with it but did my time to look into it and I definitely think that played a role in it and you pretty much nailed it on the head regarding my expectations coupled with immaturity/lack of knowledge of myself. This experience for me has been enlightening and also terribly painful.


    To describe us further, he toured in a band after college. He dated the female singer (ISFP) and they had been signed to a fairly large label and so he was fulfilling his dream to be paid to play music. Obviously he knew his time was used in vain during this time but I think he didn't really have a whole lot going on besides that. He went to school to be a recording engineer but the economy took a shit after he opened his own studio and he lost the business. He is also a classically trained guitarist. He doesn’t write music, but arranges it. He cares more about the inner workings and will tell you about a song based on the recording quality, skill of the instrument, and the mechanics that went into it. On tour he was the “dad”, made sure everyone was in the car at the right time, packed properly. All the logistics. He is very well liked and respected in the music community. To this day he owns his own business and teaches private guitar lessons to upper class families. Works long hours and has more students he can take on. I supported him and making sure he had good relations with the families and his business grew exponentially from when we met. I essentially picked from his talents and told him what was worth pursuing and I believe that he benefited a lot from that. He no longer toured a year after we met.


    After reading many descriptions the thing that didn’t fit was that he wasn’t very handy. Funny how he wanted to hire someone to hang our tv but I insisted I could do it and that I did! In his younger years he had no sense of style but he was also very overweight. As we became more successful, his style did increase but mostly with what I said would look good.


    About me well..outwardly I am tattooed, listen to punk music and go to shows often. The music community was just something I felt accepted in and how I’ve made friends over the years. I don't play any instruments and am not musically inclined. I started my own enamel pin company and have organized events and united others who were also doing similar things with their artwork. During the day I am an office manager of a dental laboratory and fabricate prosthetic teeth.

    I did compare the results I received for my type to Kierseys findings (which I don't think holds much weight in terms of perfect matches imo) and considering romantic attitudes (childlike and caregiver definitely feels the most comfortable to me).




    I really appreciate you sharing your story with me and kind regards. You made a lot of sense in how I relate to him and sometimes that's very hard for me to deal with. Obviously in my own mind I think it is salvageable because I see so many possibilities for us, as if this is just a hurdle and that over time when life begins to grate on us on more and more then we might both learn how much we truly did mean to one another. But there can be no us if he views this experience as negatively as the way you described.
    @Samfree13, when you said you have tatoos, listen to punk, and sell art pins, that pretty much seals the deal for EII e4.

    Thanks for the better description of your ex. I'm still not 100% convinced that he's LSE. Everything clicks (the "dad', the analysis of the nuts and bolts of music, working for the respect of the industry that he's in) except for a couple things. I have a hard time seeing an LSE as being friendly enough or skilled enough with Fe to be a music teacher. Also, when I read that he wanted to hire out the hanging of a picture, I kind of heard clashing chords in my mind. A hammer is crafted onto the hands of LSE's at birth.

    I think it's actually more likely that the guy is an ESE, based on the fact that I'm hearing you describe him as a clear extrovert and Caregiver, and with lots of needs for people and little need for logic. This could explain his preference for ISFP's.

    For what it's worth, I have a lot of LSE friends and my mother and sister are LSE, and I know a guy who looks almost exactly like an LSE, except he sucks at Te (handling money efficiently) and he's incredibly good at emotional manipulation. So much so that I have a hard time seeing it when it happens. Those were the giveaways that he is ESE. And since I discovered that, he told me that he has taken acting lessons and wants to be on stage in front of an audience. Lol. That is def not an LSE.

    I'm glad you weren't offended by my bluntness. I guess that, being an EII, you are immune to Te-assholeishness and low Fi behavior. Thanks. I appreciate the fact that you didn't take offense.

    I'd like to add that if your ex actually is ESE, then both you and he are better off if he's off wandering around in the Alpha Quadrant. That frees you up to find that complete jerk of an LSE who will need you like oxygen but will be afraid to admit it. He'll also be eager to hang your pictures on the wall himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I agree with what you said. At first I wondered if she wasn't INFj, but then I see no other reason to question her self-typing. INFj's tend to be, as you say, markedly outstanding in moral character and integrity. But then there are circumstances that entice one to act outside one's type, and in this case Samfree was suffering after-wedding letdown (we make too much of weddings these days), then faced with temptation while experiencing lonely aloneness...

    INFj's I know are loyal to a fault but one INFj cheated on her longtime husband. Her husband was a very likable, super friendly, but INFj fell for the advances of a real lady's man on the prowl that she met at work, and totally gave him her heart (which he ended up trampling on), but it was hot romance for a time. Divorce is hard, but they did that, and in in the process the now-ex husband revealed that, unbeknownst to her, he had cheated on her many times previous (while for her it was just this once), during those many years while she worked to support them and their kids while he earned many degrees, which he never used...
    I feel very seen here, except mine was an artist living in Los Angeles. Funny how I never lied about the affair. When I met the man, it did not feel romantic. I told him often I was married and that he seemed harmless. I thought that he wanted to be a friend and I told my husband in the morning that I met this person and even asked my husband for permission to see him again because I found him interesting. He did not mind and was rather happy I made a friend since I had found it hard to make good friends when I moved to this city. Of all our years together we trusted each other wholeheartedly and I had never once given any inclination for him to not trust me.

    I do think a relationship can be salvaged after infidelity, I'd be curious to hear if that INFJ wanted things to work out again with her husband. My only caveat is that I don't know what it feels like to be cheated on. At the moment when I see my ex spouse with his new girlfriend I become very jealous and makes me cry in an instant. I suppose it's because I take all the blame and still view him highly.

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