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Thread: Relationship Advice for INFJ Female and ESTJ Male

  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @Samfree13, when you said you have tatoos, listen to punk, and sell art pins, that pretty much seals the deal for EII e4.

    Thanks for the better description of your ex. I'm still not 100% convinced that he's LSE. Everything clicks (the "dad', the analysis of the nuts and bolts of music, working for the respect of the industry that he's in) except for a couple things. I have a hard time seeing an LSE as being friendly enough or skilled enough with Fe to be a music teacher. Also, when I read that he wanted to hire out the hanging of a picture, I kind of heard clashing chords in my mind. A hammer is crafted onto the hands of LSE's at birth.

    I think it's actually more likely that the guy is an ESE, based on the fact that I'm hearing you describe him as a clear extrovert and Caregiver, and with lots of needs for people and little need for logic. This could explain his preference for ISFP's.

    For what it's worth, I have a lot of LSE friends and my mother and sister are LSE, and I know a guy who looks almost exactly like an LSE, except he sucks at Te (handling money efficiently) and he's incredibly good at emotional manipulation. So much so that I have a hard time seeing it when it happens. Those were the giveaways that he is ESE. And since I discovered that, he told me that he has taken acting lessons and wants to be on stage in front of an audience. Lol. That is def not an LSE.

    I'm glad you weren't offended by my bluntness. I guess that, being an EII, you are immune to Te-assholeishness and low Fi behavior. Thanks. I appreciate the fact that you didn't take offense.

    I'd like to add that if your ex actually is ESE, then both you and he are better off if he's off wandering around in the Alpha Quadrant. That frees you up to find that complete jerk of an LSE who will need you like oxygen but will be afraid to admit it. He'll also be eager to hang your pictures on the wall himself.
    I have dated ESE's before my husband and gave it try after him but could feel the difference for sure between my ex and them. They do look similar, but it is possible that my estj was a harmonizing subtype. He's not a teacher who is like "You are doing great Jimmy!"lol he definitely is that kind that says I see you haven't practiced, why are you wasting my time kind. I heard that a lot...

    Would be interesting to see if us both growing up Gamma affected how we related to one another. I have an INTp father and INFP mom. He grew up with a always nervous Isfj special needs teacher for a mother and an eccentric Entj father who worked as a radio host all while living in the middle of the woods in Vermont.

    Let's say the guitar is the hammer and in that way I think its very fitting. He owns so much gear, 8 guitars and amps. Meanwhile doesn't tour or play in anymore bands. Always has to have the best instrument but for what other reason besides so that he can say he owns it and holds it. He buys so many because he's looking for the perfect tone

    No offensive taken whatsoever! You've helped me a lot during this road to discovery and appreciated your thoughtful responses!
    Last edited by Samantha; 06-30-2020 at 10:20 PM.

  2. #42
    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samfree13 View Post
    I feel very seen here, except mine was an artist living in Los Angeles. Funny how I never lied about the affair. When I met the man, it did not feel romantic. I told him often I was married and that he seemed harmless. I thought that he wanted to be a friend and I told my husband in the morning that I met this person and even asked my husband for permission to see him again because I found him interesting. He did not mind and was rather happy I made a friend since I had found it hard to make good friends when I moved to this city. Of all our years together we trusted each other wholeheartedly and I had never once given any inclination for him to not trust me.

    I do think a relationship can be salvaged after infidelity, I'd be curious to hear if that INFJ wanted things to work out again with her husband. My only caveat is that I don't know what it feels like to be cheated on. At the moment when I see my ex spouse with his new girlfriend I become very jealous and makes me cry in an instant. I suppose it's because I take all the blame and still view him highly.
    Please be careful, @Samfree13. EII's are programmed to be emotionally forgiving and incredibly understanding, because their LSE duals are basically emotional bricks. Don't let your natural inclination to fill in and cover up the emotional voids in a relationship lead you to be overly faithful and devoted to a guy who isn't making you part of his life anymore.

    Try to separate the way you feel from the reality of the situation.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samfree13 View Post
    I have dated ESE's before my husband and gave it try after him but could feel the difference for sure between my ex and them. They do look similar, but it is possible that my estj was a harmonizing subtype. He's not a teacher who is like "You are doing great Jimmy!"lol he definitely is that kind that says I see you haven't practiced, why are you wasting my time kind. I heard that a lot...

    Would be interesting to see if us both growing up Gamma affected how we related to one another. I have an INTp father and INFP mom. He grew up with a always nervous ESFj special needs teacher for a mother and an eccentric Entj father who worked as a radio host all while living in the middle of the woods in Vermont.

    Let's say the guitar is the hammer and in that way I think its very fitting. He owns so much gear, 8 guitars and amps. Meanwhile doesn't tour or play in anymore bands. Always has to have the best instrument but for what other reason besides so that he can say he owns it and holds it. He buys so many because he's looking for the perfect tone
    Lol. OK, he sounds LSE. I also have every imaginable tool. Several copies of most of them. I don't know why, other than tools extend my abilities. I'm also not surprised that he has Gamma parents. I thought I detected a hint of Gamma in your description.

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    FWIW, I have known a female EII for about nine years. She recently got divorced from her husband, who I think is an Alpha. She wasn't really over him until he got her to pay alimony (unfair, she said), and she cried. In public. Over lunch in a restaurant I had taken her to. Um, I'm glad for her catharsis, but I was afraid that the waitstaff would think that I was the cause of her tears.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Hi Samfree, very brave of you to come here and open up so candidly.

    There is no need for me to repeat what has already been said, so I'd only like to add the following: the very fact that you expose yourself in a self-conscious, honest manner, to me is a sign that chances are very high that you are indeed a Socionics INFj. Then to me the question becomes: how did this INFj end up 'cheating' on her husband? You say you did it because you wanted and like the attention, and this is where the problem actually is, for a healthy, mature INFj would have considered what the consequences would have been to another person of her actions. To put it very, very harsh: you completely failed as an INFj, and it is for that reason alone your husband will not return. If there is one thing an ESTj admires an INFj for, it is their integrity, their moral character. Introverted Feeling is the LSE's dual seeking function, and for the purpose of this discussion, Fi practically equates to integrity. You screwed up in the aspect of what is the most important quality in another person to him.

    So how to solve this dilemma of yours? One simple characteristic of emotionally mature people is that they care less about what other people think of them. Mature people do not need other people so much to feed them a sense of self-esteem. So, you need to find a way to let this need for attention that you spoke about go. Attention, in itself, is not a bad thing, but it needs to be consumed in appropriate ways, and in moderate quantities. True self-esteem is generated from within, from ones own thoughts, feelings and actions. Perhaps, like you said yourself, therapy is not a bad idea. The child in you should not be in charge any longer. Perhaps it is time to take control and allow yourself to become a true, mature INFj, one that does what INFjs do, which is: the right thing!
    Thank you for taking the time to reply to me! This experience has been a huge blow to my self esteem, much more than what I lacked when I was out trying to seek attention. I always prided myself on my integrity and to go and act outside of that and live with the consequences has been debilitating. I have made a promise to myself to speak up more when things bother me and reestablishing my values so that I am not giving into things that go against them.

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    You are wondering about this ESTj/ISFp relation your ex is in, and I understand that. I was curious what my Benefactor ex's new Contrary relation must be like (not because i want him back!), and I have to guess from clues because I am not asking anyone. But I know two ESTj/ISFp couples well I can tell you about. One is my older brother, ESTj who had been in a long-term ISFp relationship, and the other couple I am good friends with here in town, who are in a second marriage for both. (Both couples are male ESTj/female ISFp's). In both of these Supervision relations I have felt sorry for and witnessed the difficulty of the ISFp being the Supervisee, and seen the genuine annoyance of the Supervisor over the Supervisee just being herself at times. But ISFp's have an inner steel core of loyalty that will just put up with it no matter the difficulty, and the Supervisor does benefit in this relation.

    It is funny how you say this and I often observe in the photos they share together, she looks to be in pain. He is smiling and being silly and she looks like she’s struggling to be herself. I feel bad seeing this and I wonder if she realizes it’s happening. His last ISFp girlfriend would lash out at him and do anything to punish him, even after breaking up. I knew her because they were still bandmates. He said she would abuse him verbally and I asked why he never left and he said because it didn’t phase him and now I see why, because he was in a psychologically superior place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I felt so bad for her, though I had foreseen it from the beginning that she was Supervisee, and I could see her suffering the continual acts of his supervision when they were together. I had seen also that she showed more interest in the relationship than him, and I foresaw this painful breakup as being inevitable. But she had invested her whole heart and life and hope in him, and also, since my brother's ESFj longtime wife had previously left him for another man, she, with her lovely ISFp sympathy could see how deeply that had hurt him, and surely assumed her own super-loyalty and hyper-devotion would never end in a breakup by him. So she was truly shocked and broken when he ended it suddenly. [Sadly, I think he always saw her as a interim friend with benefits, and she believed they were creating permanence together.. Which doesn't make me proud of my brother. His role was selfish and unkind].

    I see this too in his relationship. Although he moved to a new city and made a post on social media giving a very wordy paragraph, describing where his life was headed but not once did he mention her. I asked if he ever would have moved there had he not met her, and he got very defensive. I thought they might get a place together, but it seems that he has just taken up space in her apartment while all his belongings are still in our city. Then there is also the lack of foresight both of them share. If they struggle seeing futures together then doesn’t inhibit taking the relationship to the next level. I realize I do have bias in my assessment but it’s not hard to see who loves who and the facades people put up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Also acceptance is a great life skill, a gift you give yourself. After the breakup of my marriage the hardest part was being a single mom - I always fretted and regretted about my son having a broken home. But in hindsight, if only I had accepted that reality, sooner, I could have enjoyed those years more. I did enjoy them, but there was always present within a heaviness and sadness and worry from my non-acceptance of my reality. And inwardly railing against this new reality I was in was never going to change my reality! After some years, I went to a powerful prayer healing (guided) session, that finally brought me (among other things) acceptance - full and lasting acceptance, all at once. It made me feel so free, and light.


    I want to go so far as to say that the most important next step for you is not only acceptance of the situation, but acceptance of your own failing that caused it, and forgiveness of yourself. We all fall short of goodness and justice. I have been thinking about Purgatory lately, which is where most of us Heaven-bound folk go before they get to Heaven - because we have not yet become saints when we die, as have failed to learn the lessons of love we might have learned on earth, but didn't. So God in His very great love and mercy gives more time, and a perfect, safe place to learn what we did not yet learn on earth. And one of the most important things we learn? Its acceptance of ourselves and forgiveness of ourselves for our errors and sins against love. That's how important it is. So just as God loves you and mercifully forgives you your failings, so also you must love yourself and be merciful and accepting of yourself and your failings, too. You need both - God to do it for you - and you've got that - and you to do it for yourself. The first step to this is recognizing your error, and you already have here, so you have done most of the hard work already!


    ___________________
    *[This couple is Catholic, like me, and will attest that God's ordinary way of pouring out extraordinary Graces is through the Sacraments of His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. They believe this, as I do, and they are together constantly seeking to receive, and do receive, these graces. In fact they seek out every opportunity to receive God's constant outpouring of grace in this way more than any couple I know.]


    The acceptance is a daily struggle. Some days I feel good with my choice and recognize it was not just me in the failing of our relationship. Other days I berate myself because I stood for nothing and hurt many people around me. I’m not a religious person but what you speak of sounds nice. I guess you have be ready to accept something as powerful as that, not sure I have it in me just yet to accept but hopefully someday things just click!

  7. #47
    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Samantha, you changed your name! I just saw your picture; you are very pretty! Are you EII-Ne or EII-Fi? I am thinking the former as you are looking at this analytically like the EII-Ne's I know are particularly prone to, but you would know your own subtype better than me. I like these descrittions: https://www.sociotype.com/socionics/...INFj/subtypes/

    I read your post yesterday, but no time to answer then, and just now I spent too long writing a post here, so, though I have some thoughts on this, particularly the ESTj/ISFp, I need to write them later. My son is coming to visit and I haven't seen him since Christmas! He is driving 3 hours in this downpour/thunderstorm that started when he left. But I will pray for you. Specifically, I am going to ask God to send you His peace, the "peace that passes all understanding", the peace that makes no sense (It is pervasive and comforting, and not circumstantial). You are dear to His heart. He is close to those whose hearts are breaking. And you are close when you seek love. Love is what matters here on earth, and it's the only thing we take with us to eternity...
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Samantha, you changed your name! I just saw your picture; you are very pretty! Are you EII-Ne or EII-Fi? I am thinking the former as you are looking at this analytically like the EII-Ne's I know are particularly prone to, but you would know your own subtype better than me. I like these descrittions: https://www.sociotype.com/socionics/...INFj/subtypes/

    I read your post yesterday, but no time to answer then, and just now I spent too long writing a post here, so, though I have some thoughts on this, particularly the ESTj/ISFp, I need to write them later. My son is coming to visit and I haven't seen him since Christmas! He is driving 3 hours in this downpour/thunderstorm that started when he left. But I will pray for you. Specifically, I am going to ask God to send you His peace, the "peace that passes all understanding", the peace that makes no sense (It is pervasive and comforting, and not circumstantial). You are dear to His heart. He is close to those whose hearts are breaking. And you are close when you seek love. Love is what matters here on earth, and it's the only thing we take with us to eternity...
    Hi! Thank you for the kind words! I realized I use the same username for nearly everything, figured I should change it, incase someone was to google my email and this post comes up. I think I lean towards the intuitive subtype, especially where is had the taste in clothes but I don’t really care that much about my health like the fi type describes. I took the advanced type test from that site I got the fi result (attached my results which that description did fit me very well)

    Hopefully the weather is good and that you have a lovely time with your family! Looking forward to hearing your thoughts at a later time!

    8C6CE8AA-04FC-4C6F-8178-B9CCECD4F85D.jpg
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    Eccentric Neurotic Narcissist andreasdevig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    repeating myself. MBTI Fe = Socionics Fi
    Well, by that logic, ESFJ (FeSi) should become SEE-ESFp (SeFi), and ENFJ (FeNi) should become IEE-ENFp (NeFi). Do you subscribe to that?

    In other words, if IXXJs become XXX-IXXjs, then EXXJs should become XXX-EXXps.


    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @Samfree13, when you said you have tatoos, listen to punk, and sell art pins, that pretty much seals the deal for EII e4.
    Hmm. From what I understand, E4s really try their best to make themselves look natural. Like meticulously and thoroughly working on a garden to make it look natural and untouched by man.
    Another analogy is that they put on make-up so that you can't tell there's make-up on. Whereas 2s try to make everything look really big and 'larger-than-life'. Like Tammy Faye Baker.
    Another analogy/example is that 4s try really hard to make their appearance look casually thrown together.

    I think this basically goes against the bigness and un-naturalness of tattoos.
    EII-INFj / INFP / Strong E4 and 9 energy / Melancholic-Phlegmatic / Musical-Intrapersonal-Spatial / Kinky-Sensual

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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    Well, by that logic, ESFJ (FeSi) should become SEE-ESFp (SeFi), and ENFJ (FeNi) should become IEE-ENFp (NeFi). Do you subscribe to that?

    In other words, if IXXJs become XXX-IXXjs, then EXXJs should become XXX-EXXps.




    Hmm. From what I understand, E4s really try their best to make themselves look natural. Like meticulously and thoroughly working on a garden to make it look natural and untouched by man.
    Another analogy is that they put on make-up so that you can't tell there's make-up on. Whereas 2s try to make everything look really big and 'larger-than-life'. Like Tammy Faye Baker.
    Another analogy/example is that 4s try really hard to make their appearance look casually thrown together.

    I think this basically goes against the bigness and un-naturalness of tattoos.
    Im totally on board what you are saying and you’ve described my overall style to a T. I should note my tattoos aren’t visible and very rarely does someone see them. They are for myself and just my appreciation for the art and what I wanted to do during the time.

  11. #51
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    Well, by that logic, ESFJ (FeSi) should become SEE-ESFp (SeFi), and ENFJ (FeNi) should become IEE-ENFp (NeFi). Do you subscribe to that?

    In other words, if IXXJs become XXX-IXXjs, then EXXJs should become XXX-EXXps.




    Hmm. From what I understand, E4s really try their best to make themselves look natural. Like meticulously and thoroughly working on a garden to make it look natural and untouched by man.
    Another analogy is that they put on make-up so that you can't tell there's make-up on. Whereas 2s try to make everything look really big and 'larger-than-life'. Like Tammy Faye Baker.
    Another analogy/example is that 4s try really hard to make their appearance look casually thrown together.

    I think this basically goes against the bigness and un-naturalness of tattoos.
    i meant only for introverts
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  12. #52
    I'm a peach and you're a plum thegreenfaerie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    Well, by that logic, ESFJ (FeSi) should become SEE-ESFp (SeFi), and ENFJ (FeNi) should become IEE-ENFp (NeFi). Do you subscribe to that?

    In other words, if IXXJs become XXX-IXXjs, then EXXJs should become XXX-EXXps.




    Hmm. From what I understand, E4s really try their best to make themselves look natural. Like meticulously and thoroughly working on a garden to make it look natural and untouched by man.
    Another analogy is that they put on make-up so that you can't tell there's make-up on. Whereas 2s try to make everything look really big and 'larger-than-life'. Like Tammy Faye Baker.
    Another analogy/example is that 4s try really hard to make their appearance look casually thrown together.

    I think this basically goes against the bigness and un-naturalness of tattoos.
    I disagree. 4's can have tattoos. In my case it was never something I wanted badly or thought about much at all (aside from considering a symbolic tattoo pertaining to astrology which I was interested quite young, adolescence lol, lady aquarius with two piscean fish in the water flowing out of the bucket...it was more just imagining though and nothing I was super serious about) I thought it was kind of trendy and just, wasn't too interested. My sister, however, was a huge lover of them and so I got my first tattoo at 28 in honor of her after she passed. I then realized the sort of, storybook theme one could have on their body as a sort of self-expression, after all, it is art. It's also just a body in the end.

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    Eccentric Neurotic Narcissist andreasdevig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    i meant only for introverts
    Yeah but you said that Fe becomes Fi. So if IXFJ (PiFe) becomes XXX-IXFj (FiPe) then shouldn't EXFJ (FePi) become XXX-EXFp (PeFi)?


    Quote Originally Posted by thegreenfaerie View Post
    I disagree. 4's can have tattoos. In my case it was never something I wanted badly or thought about much at all (aside from considering a symbolic tattoo pertaining to astrology which I was interested quite young, adolescence lol, lady aquarius with two piscean fish in the water flowing out of the bucket...it was more just imagining though and nothing I was super serious about) I thought it was kind of trendy and just, wasn't too interested. My sister, however, was a huge lover of them and so I got my first tattoo at 28 in honor of her after she passed. I then realized the sort of, storybook theme one could have on their body as a sort of self-expression, after all, it is art. It's also just a body in the end.
    4s can have tattoos of course, but I wouldn't think they're the most likely to have it. And Adam Strange made it sound like having tattoos is a sign of being a 4. I don't think it is. If anything, I think it's the contrary.
    Of course it also depends on the size, placement, visibility, and amount of tattoos you have, etc. But obviously the more tattoos you have the more flashy and 'big' and 'over-the-top' you're gonna look. Which goes against the 4 nature, as I understand it.
    I guess it could be considered a form of art, but we all express ourselves artistically in one form or another. Not having tattoos becomes a way to express yourself too just as much as having it. It's just that the former is more of a 'less is more' kind of thing. And more of a natural kind of thing.
    I personally view the body as already a piece of sculpture. (Although, as a male, it's not the most aesthetically pleasing kind). Putting images and writings on an already finished piece of sculpture just feels like overkill to me. That's just my personal preference on things. But I do feel it relates to the 4 nature.
    4s probably like to express who they are, in various ways. One of which can be the way they choose to look. But I feel like they tend to dress themselves in more of a casual, simple, understated, 'less is more' kind of a way.
    For myself, this manifests in various ways. Through the way that I dress, well.. I may think of myself as someone who doesn't really care that much about how I dress. But the truth is I actually do care a lot about how I look. Just not in the way people might expect someone to care. I'm very picky about everything. I have high standards (which I guess relates both to the 4 as well as the Fi nature). I'm a snob. But it's more that I want things to look simple and understated and 'less is more'. In my clothes, I like simplicity. No logos, etc. And when I buy glasses, I always have to get the rimless glasses (even though they're more expensive and harder to find). The rimmed glasses just feel too flashy and trendy and mainstream for my taste.
    And in my music I tend to use a lot of editing on my recordings (you know, midi technology and what not). But I still try to make them sound natural and organic and 'hand-made'. The music I listen to tend to have a very organic feel to it.
    EII-INFj / INFP / Strong E4 and 9 energy / Melancholic-Phlegmatic / Musical-Intrapersonal-Spatial / Kinky-Sensual

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    I'm a peach and you're a plum thegreenfaerie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    Yeah but you said that Fe becomes Fi. So if IXFJ (PiFe) becomes XXX-IXFj (FiPe) then shouldn't EXFJ (FePi) become XXX-EXFp (PeFi)?



    4s can have tattoos of course, but I wouldn't think they're the most likely to have it. And Adam Strange made it sound like having tattoos is a sign of being a 4. I don't think it is. If anything, I think it's the contrary.
    Of course it also depends on the size, placement, visibility, and amount of tattoos you have, etc. But obviously the more tattoos you have the more flashy and 'big' and 'over-the-top' you're gonna look. Which goes against the 4 nature, as I understand it.
    I guess it could be considered a form of art, but we all express ourselves artistically in one form or another. Not having tattoos becomes a way to express yourself too just as much as having it. It's just that the former is more of a 'less is more' kind of thing. And more of a natural kind of thing.
    I personally view the body as already a piece of sculpture. (Although, as a male, it's not the most aesthetically pleasing kind). Putting images and writings on an already finished piece of sculpture just feels like overkill to me. That's just my personal preference on things. But I do feel it relates to the 4 nature.
    4s probably like to express who they are, in various ways. One of which can be the way they choose to look. But I feel like they tend to dress themselves in more of a casual, simple, understated, 'less is more' kind of a way.
    For myself, this manifests in various ways. Through the way that I dress, well.. I may think of myself as someone who doesn't really care that much about how I dress. But the truth is I actually do care a lot about how I look. Just not in the way people might expect someone to care. I'm very picky about everything. I have high standards (which I guess relates both to the 4 as well as the Fi nature). I'm a snob. But it's more that I want things to look simple and understated and 'less is more'. In my clothes, I like simplicity. No logos, etc. And when I buy glasses, I always have to get the rimless glasses (even though they're more expensive and harder to find). The rimmed glasses just feel too flashy and trendy and mainstream for my taste.
    And in my music I tend to use a lot of editing on my recordings (you know, midi technology and what not). But I still try to make them sound natural and organic and 'hand-made'. The music I listen to tend to have a very organic feel to it.
    Yeah I hear you on everything you are saying and you basically mentioned it a bit yourself, but tattoos aren't always about being flashy. They can be very meaningful and symbolic. There are various shades to the 4 as with every type, also 3 vs 5 wing is likely a factor to consider. 4's do care very much about their image and have high standards, you are right about that, but with all types there is also growth. I know I have personally eased up a lot on some of my more snobby ways, though definitely not completely lol. I chose to do this in part, but also just some life circumstances shifted it a bit. I didn't read all of the posts (such as Adam's) so I apologize if I missed anything that was important in your answer, based on what you mentioned I could see why you replied as you did. I definitely think many 4's are quite capable of having tattoos and the like though.

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