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Thread: Truth and niceness

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    I guess it all matters to me what your general underlying goal is. How truly impersonal is your quest for 'truth.' I don't think things should be sugarcoated much but at the same time if you insist on 'I'm just keeping it real' but you seem to want to make people feel bad (because you yourself feel bad, I mean if you look at it objectively most bullies come from a place of lack in their own lives) then it doesn't seem to be all that constructive. I mean there is obviously a reason we don't just go up to ppl in society and be like 'lol ur poor and u smell' even if it's true because of how socially uncouth/sadistic it is or something. A child might naively and innocently say things like that but then usually a parent will be super embarrassed and correct that person cuz of the conflicts it can cause.

    And also, me and another forum member were talking about how everybody has like funny but sadistic but true things they think about other ppl but don't obviously say those things all the times for many reasons. If everybody just said out loud what they thought about everybody all the time, everybody would just probably die and get killed out of revenge? lol Being an adult is kinda learning to control these impulses regardless of the "truth." Truth can be very overrated- I mean shit is real after all it doesn't mean u smear ur face with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    I guess it all matters to me what your general underlying goal is. How truly impersonal is your quest for 'truth.' I don't think things should be sugarcoated much but at the same time if you insist on 'I'm just keeping it real' but you seem to want to make people feel bad (because you yourself feel bad, I mean if you look at it objectively most bullies come from a place of lack in their own lives) then it doesn't seem to be all that constructive. I mean there is obviously a reason we don't just go up to ppl in society and be like 'lol ur poor and u smell' even if it's true because of how socially uncouth/sadistic it is or something. A child might naively and innocently say things like that but then usually a parent will be super embarrassed and correct that person cuz of the conflicts it can cause.

    And also, me and another forum member were talking about how everybody has like funny but sadistic but true things they think about other ppl but don't obviously say those things all the times for many reasons. If everybody just said out loud what they thought about everybody all the time, everybody would just probably die and get killed out of revenge? lol Being an adult is kinda learning to control these impulses regardless of the "truth." Truth can be very overrated- I mean shit is real after all it doesn't mean u smear ur face with it.
    hahaha so true. There's a difference between using the truth as a copout for being a complete asshole and using truth for constructive means. Also, there has been some research into how we lie to ourselves on a daily basis so no one person is the "arbiter of truth". People who tie honesty and truth to the core of their being often fall prey to self-delusion the hardest, IME.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JustWandering View Post
    no one person is the "arbiter of truth".
    Quote Originally Posted by JustWandering View Post
    People who tie honesty and truth to the core of their being often fall prey to self-delusion the hardest, IME.
    the truth is ur dumb
    "Death smiles at us, and all a man can do is smile back"

    It's never too late

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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    the truth is ur dumb
    Spoken like someone who got their feelings hurt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JustWandering View Post
    Spoken like someone who got their feelings hurt.
    yeah
    "Death smiles at us, and all a man can do is smile back"

    It's never too late

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    Quote Originally Posted by JustWandering View Post
    Spoken like someone who got their feelings hurt.
    whats gonna hurt is when I cut ur pinocchio nose
    "Death smiles at us, and all a man can do is smile back"

    It's never too late

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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    whats gonna hurt is when I cut ur pinocchio nose
    Ok have fun with that.

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    my experience tells me people tend towards denial no matter how you word it, because the truth goes against their fragile view of the world and themselves in it. Often social acceptance, fitting in, the promise of rewards, meeting needs and wants are far more alluring than facing reality, risking social exile & scorn by going down the rabbit hole & gazing into the abyss.
    ILI-Ni - - ELVF? - 6w5-4-8 So subtype
    Oldham's Vigilant Type

    Wotan’s reawakening is stepping into the past; the stream was dammed up and has broken into its old channel. But the Obstruction will not last forever; it is rather a reculer pour mieux sauter, and the water will overleap the obstacle. Then, at last, we shall know what Wotan is saying when he ‘murmurs with Mimir’s head’. - Carl Jung


  9. #49
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    It’s impossible to be completely unbiased and unmotivated. Nobody can ever tell THE TRUTH anyway, only their own truths and opinions. The tone and wording of those is another story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    my experience tells me people tend towards denial no matter how you word it, because the truth goes against their fragile view of the world and themselves in it. Often social acceptance, fitting in, the promise of rewards, meeting needs and wants are far more alluring than facing reality, risking social exile & scorn by going down the rabbit hole & gazing into the abyss.
    I think it's based on what the ego is deprived of. People will select information to validate the deficiencies or dismiss the information that runs counter to it. Conversely, from my experience, people who harp on being honest and truthful all the time tend to have their ego tied to it because they have the most to lose if their worldview turns out to be not quite as it seems. They NEED the world to make sense. Dogmatic truth-seekers have a hard time dealing with anything in the grey area because of the fear and potential repercussions of the unknown. If one is forced to face something they don't want to deal with and actually acknowledges it, then there becomes the burden of responsibility to take action. Denial bypasses all that so they will go to great lengths and use mental gymnastics to avoid even their own truths.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    No, it's actually the opposite. Dogmatic truth seekers are better at nuance and gray areas than most. Fear of what?

    What example comes to mind?

    You sound like you know what you're talking about but you're just LARPING/mentally masturbating
    @bold: are those things mutually exclusive?

    Dogmatic ​refers to "being certain that your beliefs are right and that others should accept them, without paying attention to evidence or other opinions" (dictionary definition). I think dogmatic and truth-seeking is often contradictory due to the underlined. I do agree with you that people who have a genuine interest in finding truth are better at nuance and gray areas than most because the ego isn't tied to a particular viewpoint or outcome.

    I was saying some people are fixated on asserting the "truth" in a very a black and white, dogmatic way because they don't want to deal with their own hangups.

    Example:
    https://time.com/5668351/mckrae-game...ay-conversion/

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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    Some people believe therapy for gay people is wrong.

    Some people believe therapy for gay people is helpful. ex: a pastor admits he has attraction for the same sex. however, he does everything he can from commiting homosexual acts. this belief is based off the bible, which is the standard.

    what's your point?
    You missed the point of the article. The guy was one of the biggest supporters of trying to convert LGBT into straight through conversion therapy and parading it as the "truth". But in actuality, he was in denial about being gay. Once he came out, he denounced the conversion therapy as a lie and harmful. It was just one example of how people can get tied to a narrow version of "truth" to avoid their own hangups.
    @onfireee, I wasn't projecting anything onto you.And I grew up Christian so I know the general philosophy. I was just speaking from my own experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    checkmate, go home little girl, past ur bedtime
    So what's your point? That truth is relative?

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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    lol. that there are relative AND objective truths. when it comes to the example of homosexuality; there is definitely an objective truth
    What is the objective truth regarding homosexuality?

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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    The act of homosexuality is considered a sin; on the same level as others such as lying, murder, stealing, cheating, adultery, etc etc

    Homosexuality has gotten a lot of attention the past decade because its the only sin that has been converted to being not a sin
    Interesting. I did come across that in Catholic school.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    Its kinda the next level stuff... The religion is actually a lot deeper than what most people think. People think its just some dude in the clouds...

    No.... there is so much shit thats inter-connected with EVERYTHING.... people are just too apathetic to look
    So how do you personally interpret the Bible? I know that there is like fundamentalist, evangelical, and more open-ended interpretations of it. Do you recognize Mormons as part of Christianity?

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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    Nah mormon is a heresy.

    I grew up protestant/evangelical. Since we're on the topic of truth.... You really have to study it, within the right context, focusing on the word itself. Focusing on sound doctrine is key.... There is so many false teaching, cults, its crazy how similar they can be but wrong at the same time...

    It's like wearing a fake North Face Jacket (South Face Jacket lol)

    Gene Kim on youtube is an excellent example of someone who teaches sound doctrine

    I actually thought about going into divinity/seminary school
    Hmmm interesting. Thanks for the suggestion... I will look him up...he sounds Korean....Kim. My ESE dad went into seminary school... he really enjoyed the classes and people there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    yes he is korean. apparently ur an adopted korean so i'm sure u recognized that.

    btw i shouldn't be talking to u anyway.

    good night
    OK fair enough. I can respect that. Good night.

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    The issue with truth right now politically is there isn't one. All facts are becoming increasingly politicized to the extent that double-think is in everything on both sides of the spectrum. Each side will notice this in the opposing side but won't notice it in themselves, or is too afraid to call out their own side because they will then be seen as advocating for the other side. I don't know how it works for people on the right, but on the left it's social suicide to be associated with the right

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    cunnilingus epilepsy inducer
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    The idea that the truth is necessarily ugly is a weird fallacy.
    ἀταραξία

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    Quote Originally Posted by YXPR View Post
    Thats Fi talk. In fact that describes interaction between Fi PolR (SLE & ILE) and Fi types from the Fi pov.

    Its not privilege lmao. "Stay humble" moralizing..

    Not very IEI.
    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 07-01-2020 at 10:59 AM.
    ILI-Ni - - ELVF? - 6w5-4-8 So subtype
    Oldham's Vigilant Type

    Wotan’s reawakening is stepping into the past; the stream was dammed up and has broken into its old channel. But the Obstruction will not last forever; it is rather a reculer pour mieux sauter, and the water will overleap the obstacle. Then, at last, we shall know what Wotan is saying when he ‘murmurs with Mimir’s head’. - Carl Jung


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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Thats Fi talk. In fact that describes interaction between Fi PolR (SLE & ILE) and Fi types from the Fi pov.

    Its not privilege lmao. "Stay humble" moralizing..

    Not very IEI.
    You talk so much nonsense lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by YXPR View Post
    You talk so much nonsense lol
    Explain, what part about that was nonsense?
    ILI-Ni - - ELVF? - 6w5-4-8 So subtype
    Oldham's Vigilant Type

    Wotan’s reawakening is stepping into the past; the stream was dammed up and has broken into its old channel. But the Obstruction will not last forever; it is rather a reculer pour mieux sauter, and the water will overleap the obstacle. Then, at last, we shall know what Wotan is saying when he ‘murmurs with Mimir’s head’. - Carl Jung


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    Ask yourself why it’s always cis straight white males that complain about people getting “triggered”. The entitlement and the lack of emotional intelligence makes me want to puke.

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    You don’t need to have high Fi to know when you’re talking about things you don’t understand.

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    If you’re going to make everything about socionics at least be smart about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YXPR View Post
    Ask yourself why it’s always cis straight white males that complain about people getting “triggered”. The entitlement and the lack of emotional intelligence makes me want to puke.
    Quote Originally Posted by YXPR View Post
    You don’t need to have high Fi to know when you’re talking about things you don’t understand.
    Quote Originally Posted by YXPR View Post
    If you’re going to make everything about socionics at least be smart about it.
    Ok EII..

    ..you know, you could have made a single post or just edit the first one and add the other answers. while you have a point I guess, this is still a textbook example of Fi base meets Fi PolR. Check your type plz.
    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 07-01-2020 at 02:01 PM. Reason: typos...OCD
    ILI-Ni - - ELVF? - 6w5-4-8 So subtype
    Oldham's Vigilant Type

    Wotan’s reawakening is stepping into the past; the stream was dammed up and has broken into its old channel. But the Obstruction will not last forever; it is rather a reculer pour mieux sauter, and the water will overleap the obstacle. Then, at last, we shall know what Wotan is saying when he ‘murmurs with Mimir’s head’. - Carl Jung


  29. #69
    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    because its more about power/control/group think/"what feels right" than it is about truth. nobody cares about truth.

    pretending to care about truth is just a surface level thing
    How can everyone not realize the very basic feature of human beings that makes everyone inclined to attribute this error to those with oppositional worldviews? My natural inclination is to think that those with opposing opinions are just ignoring the facts (and you're one of those people) but I can exercise my cognition and empathy for 2 seconds to come to terms with the fact that people are generally motivated by the truth (in the framework of their exposure and perception, which doesn't exclude emotional coloration, no matter how much of a badass logical someone is). Saying "those people don't care about truth" is not only inaccurate, but also completely unimpactful except for maybe providing both sides with a feeling of indignant righteousness that adds to the universal shitpile of conflict fuel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    How can everyone not realize the very basic feature of human beings that makes everyone inclined to attribute this error to those with oppositional worldviews? My natural inclination is to think that those with opposing opinions are just ignoring the facts (and you're one of those people) but I can exercise my cognition and empathy for 2 seconds to come to terms with the fact that people are generally motivated by the truth (in the framework of their exposure and perception, which doesn't exclude emotional coloration, no matter how much of a badass logical someone is). Saying "those people don't care about truth" is not only inaccurate, but also completely unimpactful except for maybe providing both sides with a feeling of indignant righteousness that adds to the universal shitpile of conflict fuel.
    i dunno

  31. #71
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    The Right are bigger snowflakes than the Left. Getting triggered by other people getting triggered.... is adorable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    The Right are bigger snowflakes than the Left. Getting triggered by other people getting triggered.... is adorable.
    creepy ass picasso-lookin piece of shit
    Last edited by onfireee; 07-02-2020 at 12:37 AM.

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    Basically I think the Right is right about the perils of losing freedom of speech and expression, I think their alarm is real, I think we would be wise to heed their warnings. The problem is that they only present these arguments in a way in which it seems they are upset about speech being restricted when it comes to being bigoted and are fine with squashing the freedom of speech on the Left. They don't call out their own hypocrisy, therefore the Left will not believe them. They are also right about warning the Left away from becoming so radical that they just destroy everything. It's true most of us would hate that outcome, but then they go extremist themselves and ignite the fears of right wing authoritarianism that the Left has.

    The Left however is right about inequality. They are right this isn't a meritocracy. They are right this system is holding people down. They are right that capitalism has turned far too brutal. They are right that racism is real. Etc. The Right won't give them the time of day on this, will concede nothing. I know when the Left goes radical it scares the crap out of the Right, and I feel the Left needs to work on trying to be empathetic about what is scaring people. But they apparently can't. They make moral judgments about who deserves empathy, while comparing to the groups that consistently are getting no empathy and are suffering much worse than simply staring at their TVs in fear of the future. And the people who are really disempowered in our society aren't lying when they say they are exhausted and it's too much for them to try to summon up more empathy for those who aren't so disempowered who will not hear them about what is oppressing their group. (By "most disempowered" I mainly mean along racial lines--for instance African Americans and Native Americans are the two groups who seem most disempowered in the US, but it continues from there--anyone not white, poor people, LGBTQ...)

    As for truth. I think it's true that neither side is very interested in it right now, and that is indeed scary. Truth is becoming nothing but a perspective--which narrative are you pushing. So in that sense I agree it's about power. Narratives are powerful.

    And I mean I'm not saying it's simple. For instance, the Right calls out identity politics, and I think they're right that identity politics can actually be more divisive than not... But then they won't divorce themselves from obvious white supremacists. What are white supremacists using? Identity politics. And the Right isn't sensitive to how it's really only white people by and large in the US who have in the past been able to live free of identity politics and be "individuals." They don't like being labeled as a group? Well, neither has anyone else. But those groups were defined by inequality.

    ETA: I feel I wasn't critical enough of the Left, so I'm adding on. The Left in my view is going a bit too far. By this I don't mean the progressive movement in general as I think progressives actually account for about half of the Democratic party and we should have progressive representation in government (half of the Democrats in our government should be progressive to represent the people). I'm all for getting more perspectives into politics because the people are diverse in their perspectives. But anyway, the totalitarianism emerging on the Left is bad. It's intolerant. It will lead to ruin. It's going too far. But I can empathize with why they feel that way. It's infuriating when people are suffering for so long and nothing will change.

    ETA2: And the other thing that pisses me off is how it's actually in the Right's best interest to confront inequality. If they don't like how the Left is doing it, then do it better, stop whining like a pathetic loser. Our racial inequality actually compromises our national security. It's a weakness that others who want to destroy the US and the west can exploit. This seems right up the right wing alley. But what are they doing? WHINING. Burying their heads in the sand. Going towards macho stereotypes to feel powerful. Like how pathetic are you! It's stupid.

    Maybe they are angry at the Left for becoming intolerant. But why can't they look at themselves? They've become useless fearful sticks in the mud. (See Mitch McConnell good gawd.) They don't stand up for their conservative ideals. They lie and push towards authoritarianism.
    Last edited by inumbra; 07-01-2020 at 09:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    i like being a pretty snowflake doe, better than being cow turd. ew

    @xerxe smells like a shit-stained underwear... its adorable

    I smell like your mom. <3

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    I smell like my mom's rectum. <3
    we know
    Last edited by onfireee; 07-02-2020 at 02:14 AM.
    "Death smiles at us, and all a man can do is smile back"

    It's never too late

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    the thread is about shit now? ughhhhhhhhh. dear ppl of the opposite sex, shit is not enthralling, it's stupid. i swear i learned this when i was 10.

    no, inumbra, we're guys and we care about our farts because we are actually 12 years old.

    oh wonderful, how wonderful for you all, i don't understand the fascination with bowel movements, i've worked in assisted living before. and you know what happened? the first two weeks were an endless struggle not to quit, but i needed income. and i adapted to see humans as humans.

  37. #77
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    Most threads on most sites turn into shit
    If there's an ocean inside the chest, then why is it so empty?

  38. #78

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    "the truth hurts" seems like it's just a justfication to be an asshole.

    Yes the truth can hurt. But the truth can also be beautiful. Reality is complicated.

    I am all for free speech and people saying what they want but there SHOULD be consequences for actual rudeness lol otherwise it just kinda sounds like the person wants a bunch of victims to abuse without penalty in a sense.

  39. #79
    shotgunfingers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    "the truth hurts" seems like it's just a justfication to be an asshole.

    Yes the truth can hurt. But the truth can also be beautiful. Reality is complicated.

    I am all for free speech and people saying what they want but there SHOULD be consequences for actual rudeness lol otherwise it just kinda sounds like the person wants a bunch of victims to abuse without penalty in a sense.
    There is your truth and there is my truth. As for the "truth", there is no such thing. What is beautiful to me may be shitty to you..
    ILI-Ni - - ELVF? - 6w5-4-8 So subtype
    Oldham's Vigilant Type

    Wotan’s reawakening is stepping into the past; the stream was dammed up and has broken into its old channel. But the Obstruction will not last forever; it is rather a reculer pour mieux sauter, and the water will overleap the obstacle. Then, at last, we shall know what Wotan is saying when he ‘murmurs with Mimir’s head’. - Carl Jung


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    YXPR's Avatar
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    Yeah you’re right I’m EII and you are Ti crea LOL

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