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Thread: Life With a Dual

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pirouette View Post
    I thought that according to theory, duals are supposed to help each other develop and to see the other side of things where they're lacking. And that duality doesn't just "cover blind spots", so to speak
    A dual makes you feel complete because they compansate your unconscious side. But you cant really develop your weak side when someone is constantly overriding it wth their strong side. A dual can probably help you by examples but at some point you need privacy to start listening to your weak inner voice

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    A dual makes you feel complete .......when someone is constantly overriding it wth their strong side. A dual can probably help you by examples......
    My dual hasn't done any of this and she doesn't really augment my cognitive processes (or cover my blind spots); only weak-minded individuals will allow someone else to do or override any aspect of their thinking for them. Duals (partners) add things to relationships especially what those relationships produce; the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. The best things that duals give to their partners is tolerance and competitive-free environments, which allows each partner to be who s/he is - weaknesses and all.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    My dual hasn't done any of this and she doesn't really augment my cognitive processes (or cover my blind spots); only weak-minded individuals will allow someone else to do or override any aspect of their thinking for them. Duals (partners) add things to relationships especially what those relationships produce; the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. The best things that duals give to their partners is tolerance and competitive-free environments, which allows each partner to be who s/he is - weaknesses and all.

    a.k.a. I/O
    Duals override your suggestive function. That's pretty obvious. In younger years this doesnt matter so much or it is just felt as good chemistry. When older this means that the personal development of the unconscious side is not happening precisely because of the "good" benefits of duality. Peoples needs change through life. I would say that duals prevent each other from taking on challenges of latter part of life.

    The suggestive function is still your personal problem being with a dual or not.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Duals override your suggestive function. That's pretty obvious. In younger years this doesnt matter so much or it is just felt as good chemistry. When older this means that the personal development of the unconscious side is not happening precisely because of the "good" benefits of duality. Peoples needs change through life. I would say that duals prevent each other from taking on challenges of latter part of life.

    The suggestive function is still your personal problem being with a dual or not.
    Psychologists have shown that people’s personalities shift throughout their lives. In your 40’s and 50’s, people shift from looking for opportunities to conserving gains.

    I’m not dualized and I recently realized that I am doing that. No help from a Dual is needed to stop “growing”.

    Incidentally, one of the ways I try to stay “younger” is to take on new challenges. Unfortunately, I’ve noticed that I have been doing less of even that recently.

    When I wake up, instead of looking forward to doing something I want to do, I have a list of things I have to do to keep the roof over my head and the money coming in. This is not progress.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 06-20-2020 at 12:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    My dual hasn't done any of this and she doesn't really augment my cognitive processes (or cover my blind spots); only weak-minded individuals will allow someone else to do or override any aspect of their thinking for them. Duals (partners) add things to relationships especially what those relationships produce; the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. The best things that duals give to their partners is tolerance and competitive-free environments, which allows each partner to be who s/he is - weaknesses and all.

    a.k.a. I/O
    Quoted for posterity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Duals override your suggestive function. That's pretty obvious. In younger years this doesnt matter so much or it is just felt as good chemistry. When older this means that the personal development of the unconscious side is not happening precisely because of the "good" benefits of duality. Peoples needs change through life. I would say that duals prevent each other from taking on challenges of latter part of life.

    The suggestive function is still your personal problem being with a dual or not.
    I think there might be some truth to this. I've seen undualized people grow their suggestive and mobilizing functions effectively later in life, having learned to provide them fairly well on their own. They could even seem a bit like their duals because of this, though obviously not reaching that level of competence. The flipside could be that they lack some other type of growth instead in this case so it's not necessarily any proof that dualization would be harmful.

    I think it's funny how in thread SEI talks about the need of change and LII praises a tolerant and competition-free atmosphere.

    I'm not convinced that duality is the only truly good relationship and that pursuing an elusive dual is worth it if it means a bunch of wasted years. Other aspects of compatilibility, life circumstances etc. can be overriding.
    Many socionics texts on relationships seem surprisingly naive with their idealization of duality over other types of intertype relationships. Maybe written mostly by idealist NT and NF types? I would take a hot activity partner or identical over a plain dual any day, lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Duals override your suggestive function. That's pretty obvious....... I would say that duals prevent each other from taking on challenges of latter part of life.......
    Perhaps it's choice of words but this isn't obvious to me. How can someone else override one's cognitive processes; one agrees and or allows it or doesn't. The word "override" seems to suggest some sort of contest that one partner has to lose, which goes against my perception that duals can usually provide conflict-free environments (certainly not all can but duals have slightly better chances). One dual preventing the development of the partner suggests interference, which sounds rather anti-dual. Now one partner can become lazy and allow certain processes to atrophy but that depends on the individual.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Duals do both, substitute your SuperId block through the use of their Ego block but also help you to use it better (grow it) since you would naturally learn from them how to use those elements properly. Over time according some descriptions, dual couples can even blurry each other's individuality suggesting that it becomes a complete self or closed system. Mb that's what Tallmo observed? As comparison, I think less favored relations can force the individual to over use the negative aspects of people's personality, such as Super Ego or Super Id, from the constant requirements or support the partner seeks and needs from those areas.

    Some romantic dual couples who spend the vast majority of their time together may experience an "identity blurring" effect. In this circumstance, the couple may lose most sense of distinction between one another, functioning not as two parts of a whole, but merely as a whole itself. This can be accompanied by a distancing of the idea of the individuals' physical selves and names from the actual conception of the partner. This can eventually reach point where the partner becomes difficult to conceive of or even picture externally-- as though images of them or their name are actually referring to some third old friend whom the partner has not seen in a while. Duality in this form could well be termed "integration"; neither partner could fully define their identity without some inclusion of the other.

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    Rebelondeck's Avatar
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    @Tommy Identity blurring has certainly never occurred in my dual relationship; most people puzzle over what we see in each other. I think the highlighted passage only happens when a person is in the romance stage (full of raging hormones or testosterone or LSD) but then type may be totally irrelevant. Duality can be a plus under the right set of circumstances; it isn't a sure path to any sort of nirvana or self-weakening. Baggage is the real killer of relationships and the less both have, the higher the potential for success - type is a minor issue when compared.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    It has occurred to me. It didn't before living together, though. I don't think however, it refers to external ppl being unable to observe the differences between the partners, but rather, the partners merging with the other when letting them operate their Ego (instead of pushing ppl to use different elements how happens in other less favored relations). It is taking charge of those areas in relationships. For outsiders, I think they could observe very different things, depending on their quadra values and how much they know both partners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I know some dual couples who are old now and they've been together for like 50-60 years. Eie+lsi and lie+esi.

    They seem onesided. Like they have never truly expanded beyond their youth personality. I do think duality can prevent psychological growth. Your unconscious side is constatly compensated for so no need to develop.
    lol. This is so weird. Finally something that has caught my attention as a warning not so in favor of duality.
    I'm experiencing this right now (coming back to youth patterns), but without a dual.
    But I'm sure they don't care about it, they're happy anyway.

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    How is that duality prevents psychological growth regarding suggestive? it has helped me grow it myself so far. I don't get some of you people's "logic". You're all crazy as shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Im just trying to express what Im seeing. Some old people seem like they have aged well and have become complete. But I dont see it in these dual couples. They have stayed too long in a state that needed to grow. It makes totally sense to me knowing duality.

    I think duality is both good and bad.

    Of course my sample is not very big...
    I’ve had similar thoughts; I also think there’s something immature in dual couples I’ve seen, that’s difficult to explain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I’ve had similar thoughts; I also think there’s something immature in dual couples I’ve seen, that’s difficult to explain.
    I haven’t interacted with many dual couples, but I have spent some time with duals. What I find is there is a general lack of conflict. I don’t think that duals tiptoe around each other’s weak points. Instead, we just don’t seem to provoke each other. This applies to real-life interactions, incidentally, not on-line ones, which in contrast seem rife with miscommunication.
    With every other type, I’m doing some level of compensating for their lack of understanding or their world-view which attributes importance to things which are not important. With duals, I don’t have this feeling. Duals may completely disagree with me, but I still feel like there is agreement on a fundamental level. I also feel this with Identicals, although not with Mirrors or Activity partners.

    I don’t think that I’m idealizing these relationships; I think I’m just observing them.

    Now, it may seem to some people that a relationship which lacks a certain level of formality, driven by the potential for misunderstanding, is not a mature relationship, but I don’t agree.

    @Tallmo and @FreelancePoliceman , you guys have both said in this thread that Dual couples seem undeveloped, but have not stated exactly why you have this impression. Could it be the lack of formality or guardedness? It would be good to identify the reasons why Dual relationships seem to be undeveloped.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 06-21-2020 at 03:04 AM.

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    @Tallmo and @FreelancePoliceman, did these dual couples you observed get together when they were very young, or are they people who have had limited life experience or interacted with a very small number of people? Just wondering if there's more to consider than duality that's impacting those situations.

    Personally I know an SEE/ILI couple where he (the SEE) seems stuck in a place of arrested development (they got married really young), but another ESI/LIE couple where she (ESI) basically grew leaps and bounds after marrying the LIE. He really opened up her worldview and confidence levels. They got married in their late 20s.

    Some people seem to have tendencies towards lifelong learning and growth while others don't, duality or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I’ve had similar thoughts; I also think there’s something immature in dual couples I’ve seen, that’s difficult to explain.
    I think it depends on how much both rely on the other. I've had two significant duals in my life, my late sister and my best friend from high school.
    My sister was born 6 years before me so we weren't that close, even less so since our temperaments were in opposition. I find the time I had with her still helps me grow even though she passed 10 years ago.
    If I think back of that highschool best friend, well, I'm tempted to say she was a conflictor considering how smothered and stagnating I felt around her, but that would be spite talking. We were always together, we supported each other and everything ran smoothly but we also kept each other from being whole as individuals.
    My thoughts on this topic is that if you stay with only like-minded people(like same quadra), you will likely stagnate. If you spend too much time with different minded people(like opposite quadra), you might end up thinking something is wrong with yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeris View Post
    My thoughts on this topic is that if you stay with only like-minded people(like same quadra), you will likely stagnate. If you spend too much time with different minded people(like opposite quadra), you might end up thinking something is wrong with yourself.
    Truth. Seems like the best dual couples recognize the need for outside influences and to keep learning/growing. They would both need to be on the same page about this, too, or I could see how one could smother the other.

    In other words: avoid codependency.

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    @Tallmo @FreelancePoliceman

    Don’t you think a large part of this is that you guys simply clash with the individuals involved or their values?

    @Tallmo you brought up ESI-LIE and EIE-LSI, who are of different temperaments and quadras than you. On top of that they were elderly people you mentioned, so 70-80+ years old. Don’t you think these things would play a big role in you perceiving them as more “simpler”, slowed-down and “one-dimensional” (in your words: ‘onesided’)?

    I think it’s probably also to do with how duality is “greater than the sum of its parts”, so duality would amplify the effects of the individuals’ existing maturity levels.

    Also FreelancePoliceman— Maybe the “immature” feeling might be related to how the people seem essentially more relaxed/satisfied and happy than average and not having to deal with major stresses on their own? And how they’re more of a self-sufficient unit so it creates a “bubble around them/separated from reality/society” impression, or one of teammates who are mindlessly loyal to each other?

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    PS Fuck you all who didn’t “like” or “constructive” my OP post for creating this thread. You are the reasons I am leaving.

    If you “liked” or constructived it, fuck you anyway too. Just in case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeris View Post
    If I think back of that highschool best friend, well, I'm tempted to say she was a conflictor considering how smothered and stagnating I felt around her, but that would be spite talking. We were always together, we supported each other and everything ran smoothly but we also kept each other from being whole as individuals.
    Can you say what gave you these impressions? Specific examples? Also, what is your type?

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    Doesn't the theory of duals stagnating rely on the assumption that the person isn't interacting with other types outside the relationship?

    As I interact other people I have to not rely on my ego functions (which aren't always well received) and cover my weaknesses if in a group where everyone also has my weakness (my friendship group is nearly all NF) or when my weakness won't be tolerated (with conflict relationships). For me, being with a dual is a haven where I don't have to worry about being anything but myself. But also looking at Beta STs gives me a model for how I can improve when my usual programming isn't appropriate.


    Oh also I'm pretty sure my parents are conflictors (ESI-ILE). My mom has "self-dualised" and I find her hard to type. Still not sure I got it right but she's one of the hardest working, most respected and practical people I know. My dad has completely stagnated. He's a man-child who even I'm outgrowing, let alone my mom. It's embarrassing to compare them. So maybe it depends on the people and how they react to the relationship and not just the relationship itself.
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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    @Adam Strange
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    How can someone else override one's cognitive processes; one agrees and or allows it or doesn't. The word "override" seems to suggest some sort of contest that one partner has to lose, which goes against my perception that duals can usually provide conflict-free environments
    a.k.a. I/O
    I agree that duals provide conflict free environments. That's because they override your suggestive function so you feel good. You get balance and what you are unconsciously "seeking". However, as I said before, the suggestive function is ultimately your problem and should be dealt with later in life. The nature of the suggestive is such that you cannot develop it if someone is providing it for you. You need to start listening to your undeveloped part and slowly bring it forward. A dual will just make you feel as if you already have developed it, but you haven't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Something View Post
    How is that duality prevents psychological growth regarding suggestive? it has helped me grow it myself so far. I don't get some of you people's "logic". You're all crazy as shit.
    It's pretty simple, I have already explained it. See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    @Tallmo and @FreelancePoliceman, did these dual couples you observed get together when they were very young, or are they people who have had limited life experience or interacted with a very small number of people?
    They have been together since their early 20'ies, and now they are around 80 years old.

    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    @Tallmo @FreelancePoliceman

    Don’t you think a large part of this is that you guys simply clash with the individuals involved or their values?
    Good question, but I don't think so. I get the feeling that they are too much "stuck" in their base/ego functions and I feel like "Who is this person really?". I feel the same way with ILEs who happen to be too stuck in Ne, and don't show their real, human personality. It's like the functions "consume" or "possess" the real personality.

    As I said, I think duality is both good and bad. It probably works better early in life. If I found a dual I would probably go for it, because why would I say no to a working relationship? There are also non-psychological factors to consider, like money.

    Socionics doesn't know all the psychology surrounding duality. So it is important to listen to the Jungians also. They have the broader perspective.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    No one develops a suggestive function that is apparent otherwise than accepting.

    See in terms of BIG5 only neuroticism seems to fluctuate. Other traits are along lines with persona (not personality) adaptation and socialization. Like introvert who hangs around in groups which is quite common or extrovert who puts energy in development and shuts down other people. Fairly common.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    ........That's because they override your suggestive function so you feel good. You get balance and what you are unconsciously "seeking". However, as I said before, the suggestive function is ultimately your problem and should be dealt with later in life. The nature of the suggestive is such that you cannot develop it if someone is providing it for you. You need to start listening to your undeveloped part and slowly bring it forward. A dual will just make you feel as if you already have developed it, but you haven't.......
    Your perspective shows where I deviate radically from Socionics models: I don't think there's a suggestive function; unconscious anything isn't cognition; and data processing systems become fixed in concrete so can't be altered after the age of 25 without significant brain trauma. People get more adept at using the processing capabilities that they have and eventually most develop workarounds for their weaknesses but weaknesses in data processing structure can't be strengthened - one cannot strengthen a missing arm.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Your perspective shows where I deviate radically from Socionics models: I don't think there's a suggestive function; unconscious anything isn't cognition; and data processing systems become fixed in concrete so can't be altered after the age of 25 without significant brain trauma. People get more adept at using the processing capabilities that they have and eventually most develop workarounds for their weaknesses but weaknesses in data processing structure can't be strengthened - one cannot strengthen a missing arm.

    a.k.a. I/O

    This probably gets to the heart of the disagreement. “If a dual allows you to neglect the development of your weaker functions, then is Duality good for you?”

    My mother used to tell me that I could learn to be good at anything if I put my mind to it. And for many things, she was right. I excelled at science and math classes. However, to believe her, I’d have to ignore my failed attempts at learning to swim or playing a musical instrument.
    I was really good at track events, too. Naturally good. So good that I was the fastest in the 100 yard dash and set the city record for the long jump.
    But in my senior year in HS, something happened. I was in a race with some kids from Jefferson High School. We were all lined up in the blocks together, and when the starting gun went off, those guys walked away from me. I think they beat me by a distance of three yards. I thought Damn. I was running full out. No amount of my practicing is going to overcome that lead.

    In my thirties I decided that I really, really wanted to learn to program microcontrollers in real-time assembly and studied the hell out of it for two years and I got exactly nowhere. So instead of continuing to bust my ass to become at best third rate at something I wasn’t good at, I started a company and now am doing pretty well by doing stuff that’s easy.

    Do I miss the fact that I can’t program? Yes, a little. Just as I wish I were a great swimmer and could play a musical instrument. However, I look at guys who are great programmers and they don’t seem incredibly happy. So maybe I should just work with what I’ve got and buy the talent I need but don’t have.

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    @Tallmo explained it well, I think.
    @Adam Strange, @sbbds, the dual couples I’ve met give me the impression somewhat of being not very well-rounded. If I had to put it Socionically, each half seems to rely almost exclusively on their base, or perhaps ego, function/s. I don’t know in most cases when they got together, though I know an ILE/SEI couple who give me that impression, and got together in grad school. I’ll try to provide specific examples:

    with the ILE/SEI, the ILE plays more or less the sterotype of an Ne-base — a touch of the “lol random” bit; also pretty intelligent, well-read, and whatnot. But even in his forties, he still gets incredibly nervous in formal environments, and he seems only able to use Fe when very comfortable or relaxed. As for Si, he has a seemingly strange relationship with his wife, where he more or less doesn’t seem to have an opinion on what his wife does to him — whatever she cooks for him, for instance, he just eats in a way that seems somehow passive. It’s difficult to describe. There’s perhaps another aspect of Si that influences the personality which he seems to lack, maybe. As for the SEI, I don’t know her as well, but I get the impression she used to have a sense of ambition once that she’s lost. She was once very involved in a certain activity that I consider generally Ti-oriented, and though she still seems abstractly interested in it, and though her husband is involved, she seems to have lost her motivation, without much to replace it. She’s really a nice person, but she seems to have involved herself entirely in mundane day-to-day life, without apparent desire to change it. They seem happy as they are — and, again, they’re nice people — so I don’t know that this is necessarily bad, but it is what it is.

    I also know an LII-ESE couple I’ll mention. The LII is perhaps stereotypical. Disconnected from every-day life, is reclusive and spends his time either working or reading, gives an impression of distance when speaking to people, crumples and visibly sweats in situations of pressure, has a soft voice, and is terrible in social situations. He’s also in his forties. He’s also a nice guy, but I get the impression that he’s always been fairly distant from his kids and leaves a lot of stressful situations for his wife to deal with. It’s not really intentional; you get the impression he doesn’t realize he’s doing it, but I guess I’d hope that an adult at his age would have gotten better at this sort of thing. The wife actually strikes me as a bit more of a well-rounded person, perhaps because her husband can be fairly distant, or else because she survived a mass shooting and aged prematurely, but their dynamic is such that it seems like she babies him in a way, and it makes me fairly uncomfortable.

    Other dual couples give me similar impressions. I have mixed feelings about duality. I’m not sure I would want to be in such a relationship myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Can you say what gave you these impressions? Specific examples? Also, what is your type?
    I have nothing more specific than these impressions, alas. There was this sense of clautrophobia tainting everything, I can't say where it came from.
    Well, the reason I talked IR was to not talk type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Do I miss the fact that I can’t program? Yes, a little. Just as I wish I were a great swimmer and could play a musical instrument. However, I look at guys who are great programmers and they don’t seem incredibly happy. So maybe I should just work with what I’ve got and buy the talent I need but don’t have.
    IMO, there are two qualities that you need to become a great programmer:

    1) A freakishly well-developed ability to think sequentially: A => B => C => etc... This is the opposite of abstract thought and the opposite of what passes for intelligence in other contexts.

    2) An obsessive-compulsive personality. Imagine the kind of person who's willing to sit alone in a dark room, trying to thread a needle for ten hours until they succeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    IMO, there are two qualities that you need to become a great programmer:

    1) A freakishly well-developed ability to think sequentially: A => B => C => etc... This is the opposite of abstract thought and the opposite of what passes for intelligence in other contexts.

    2) An obsessive-compulsive personality. Imagine the kind of person who's willing to sit alone in a dark room, trying to thread a needle for ten hours until they succeed.
    Wrong. Did you make this up because you couldn’t learn programming?

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    @xerxe, do you think programmers tend to be Ti-valuing? It's a trend I've seemed to notice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northstar View Post
    Wrong. Did you make this up because you couldn’t learn programming?
    No, I'm a professional C and C++ programmer. I started learning how to program (Visual Basic) when I was thirteen.


    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    @xerxe, do you think programmers tend to be Ti-valuing? It's a trend I've seemed to notice.
    IME, it's all over the board. I've personally worked with ILE's and LII's. My first technical lead was an IEI. The best programmer I went to school with was an SLI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    No, I'm a professional C and C++ programmer. I started learning how to program (Visual Basic) when I was thirteen.
    So why the claims, do you hate it or just like to put yourself down?

    Yeah, I did some pascal and C at that age too. Programming in itself never was interesting enough for me to work full-time at because I need to see concrete results and prefer leading positions to narrow fields of expertise. I did and sometimes still do some assembly, embedded C and PLC/Robot programming and that was pretty fun. Application programming seemed boring to me but I wouldn’t call people good at it bad at abstract thought. It was too abstract for me. A good understanding of the architecture, data structures, race conditions and multi-threading issues seem important to me in the guys that do it for me.

    Good programmers that I have worked with have been ILI, SLI and LII. Oh yeah, one ILE too in a co-operation project, he was a genius and not only in programming.
    Last edited by Northstar; 06-22-2020 at 06:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    IMO, there are two qualities that you need to become a great programmer:

    1) A freakishly well-developed ability to think sequentially: A => B => C => etc... This is the opposite of abstract thought and the opposite of what passes for intelligence in other contexts.

    2) An obsessive-compulsive personality. Imagine the kind of person who's willing to sit alone in a dark room, trying to thread a needle for ten hours until they succeed.
    Most of the programmers I know are introverts. ILI, SEI, LII, and my SLI ex-wife was a senior systems programmer for the U of M for a while. The very best, most brilliant programmer I ever met was so OCD that I could never type him because he seemed to lack a personality. All I know is he was introverted when he wasn’t appearing to be very extroverted, and he drank himself to death when his wife left him.

    But I wouldn’t say that my 100% extroversion prevented me from being able to program. I had learned FORTRAN and Pascal and had designed machines that operated on ladder logic. I think it was the magnitude of the task of learning real-time assembly while raising a kid at hone and trying to start a business.

    And then there is that thing about me being left-handed and poor at learning languages. That didn’t help.

    In the end, I realized that I was struggling to do something that other people were already great at doing, and that I could just buy their talent for money.


    This might be a particularly Gamma view, but paying people with money is a wonderful way to order your priorities, in the sense that you can’t do things forever that lack at least some level of public or social support.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Your perspective shows where I deviate radically from Socionics models: I don't think there's a suggestive function; unconscious anything isn't cognition; and data processing systems become fixed in concrete so can't be altered after the age of 25 without significant brain trauma. People get more adept at using the processing capabilities that they have and eventually most develop workarounds for their weaknesses but weaknesses in data processing structure can't be strengthened - one cannot strengthen a missing arm.

    a.k.a. I/O
    Ok, I don't want to continue debating then. But I'll just mention a few things: I think the fact that duality works (and all other socionics relations) so well is proof that there is a suggestive function. Why else would I react to Ne in a positive way? Ẃhy are people often oriented towards "the suggestive"? Or do you not agree on this?

    As I said, developing the suggestive is something that happens later in life. When you're young everything is about the base. There are specific descriptions on how and when the suggestive ("inferior" in jungian terminology) can be developed. Authors like Marie-Louise von Franz have written about this.

    It also makes sense to me that we have all the functions but because of the development of a conscious type the other functions remain undeveloped. They become a problem that has to be dealt with later.

    It's a major theme in Jungian psychology that the first half of life is about developing a one-sided but functional personality, and then the latter half of life is about integrating the other side that was left out. It's not like a missing arm, more like a arm that has been forgotten and has undeveloped muscles and later has to be worked on and brought back to life.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Duality is an introvert relationship, so I understand that many people will think it sucks on the outside. But that's the world they live in, and they're probably happier than they would be pursuing non ego goals, and what seems mundane to outsiders is very likely a lot meaningful for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northstar View Post
    So why the claims, do you hate it or just like to put yourself down?

    Yeah, I did some pascal and C at that age too. Programming in itself never was interesting enough for me to work full-time at because I need to see concrete results and prefer leading positions to narrow fields of expertise. I did and sometimes still do some assembly, embedded C and PLC/Robot programming and that was pretty fun. Application programming seemed boring to me but I wouldn’t call people good at it bad at abstract thought. It was too abstract for me. A good understanding of the architecture, data structures, race conditions and multi-threading issues seem important to me in the guys that do it for me.

    Good programmers that I have worked with have been ILI, SLI and LII. Oh yeah, one ILE too in a co-operation project, he was a genius and not only in programming.

    I don't hate programming LOL. In fact, it's a huge part of my life.

    What I meant was that computers are blank slates that don't make philosophical assumptions about what you want to do, and that it's the programmer's job to write the step-by-step order of program execution at the most basic level. Sequential (algorithmic) thinking is different from abstract (heuristical) thinking, which proceeds based on generalizations and clever intuitive leaps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeris View Post
    I have nothing more specific than these impressions, alas. There was this sense of clautrophobia tainting everything, I can't say where it came from.
    Well, the reason I talked IR was to not talk type.
    =.=

    IM LEAVING

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Most of the programmers I know are introverts. ILI, SEI, LII, and my SLI ex-wife was a senior systems programmer for the U of M for a while. The very best, most brilliant programmer I ever met was so OCD that I could never type him because he seemed to lack a personality. All I know is he was introverted when he wasn’t appearing to be very extroverted, and he drank himself to death when his wife left him.

    But I wouldn’t say that my 100% extroversion prevented me from being able to program. I had learned FORTRAN and Pascal and had designed machines that operated on ladder logic. I think it was the magnitude of the task of learning real-time assembly while raising a kid at hone and trying to start a business.

    And then there is that thing about me being left-handed and poor at learning languages. That didn’t help.

    In the end, I realized that I was struggling to do something that other people were already great at doing, and that I could just buy their talent for money.
    The greatest programmer that I ever met was an SLI. I once watched, in awe, as he wrote a basic disassembler in five minutes, while we were still students! He was really good at using all the methods at his disposal (libraries, existing code, etc...) to finish his job in the shortest period of time. That's Te / logic of productivity for you.


    This might be a particularly Gamma view, but paying people with money is a wonderful way to order your priorities, in the sense that you can’t do things forever that lack at least some level of public or social support.
    Adam, you have knack for valuing the exact opposite of what I value. In this case and in the types of women you're attracted to. For me, delegating work to someone else feels like failure. I can only do that if I killed any emotional investment in the project's outcome or treated the goal like a worthless whore. (:

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    I don't hate programming LOL. In fact, it's a huge part of my life.

    What I meant was that computers are blank slates that don't make philosophical assumptions about what you want to do, and that it's the programmer's job to write the step-by-step order of program execution at the most basic level. Sequential (algorithmic) thinking is different from abstract (heuristical) thinking, which proceeds based on generalizations and clever intuitive leaps.
    Sure, that's how it works at a very basic level. However, the architecture of a program can become very complicated and convoluted and there are many ways to solve problems. Debugging often requires creative thinking and intuitive leaps, there are all sorts of surprising effects you can't predict by simply thinking sequentially.

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    : )

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