This is like the "spirituality" thread, but in reverse.
How materialistic are you? Do you think being materialistic corresponds to higher support for capitalism? Do you like materialistic people or do you find them insufferable?
This is like the "spirituality" thread, but in reverse.
How materialistic are you? Do you think being materialistic corresponds to higher support for capitalism? Do you like materialistic people or do you find them insufferable?
When it's used as derisive, what's typically connoted by "materialism" are rapacity, and/or obsession with signalling social status through possessions. Cautious economizing of one's resources and strengths may prioritize material interests over spiritual, but this would certainly not mean conspicuous consumption or rapacity to point of exhaustion; these run counter to one's material self-interest.
Spiritual matters are internal to the mind on a low-level, making their valuation a matter of personal choice, so whenever someone laments "the devaluation of our spiritual values for materialism" in context of a civic discussion, it connotes that a collective spirituality is what is meant, not personal.
Arguments that "True spirituality must come from a collective level", by necessity, assume a consequentialist absolute value of common spiritual good at the expense of any value that contests it, even personal choice.
Group evolution makes it easy to understand the benefits collective spirituality confers, but the irony is that the net benefits to the human group are largely material ones. In absence of collective spirituality, many individuals may find, or claim to find, personal spirituality sufficient to themselves, and since this is an internal and transcendental matter, its benefits on an internal level are impossible to quantify versus collective spirituality. The only obvious edge collective spirituality has over personal is the material benefits.
If you're pushing collective spirituality to the extent that participance is no longer voluntary, the benefit of spirituality as a thing-in-it-self is likely being pushed in bad faith.
This isn't inherent in simply proselytizing a spiritual belief to other people in order to build a collective from the ground-up. But, when these same types complain that "our capitalist system is too materialistic," what is really meant is "your central collective doesn't take enough action in accordance with our goals." It's a frame-game to make absence of one framework look like an unwanted enforcement of another.
I'm not even totally devoted to capitalism as a thing-in-itself, to the point where the "Free Trade" spook overrides the good of my own in-group, but at the same time, I don't think a certain degree of individualist value has to be completely abolished either.
i'm mad materialistic but not as an end that shit just keeps score at the end of the day that I'm beating the fck out of everyone but really its the spinnin webs of deceit....there's a lot of vanity and lust too. because when i want soemthing really i get it no matter what. thats what makes me so untrustworthy, is that hwen i see opportunity to takez what i want i just always take it like clockwork even if I fck a lot people over. but when always got big wad of cash peeling bills off when i seez something i want but love to bargain down people for it....either i'm connin or intimidatin'...or talkin' trash and very rude to people even flips the fck out a lot. I'll bully con intimidate puppetmaster even if I know ain' tnothing going to come out of it in terms of gain, just because I enjoy it, pushing up like that..honestly there's a lot of vanity too because my own greed turns me on sexually, lickin' my lip and just laughing maniacally to myself as new webs of deceit to spin and aggressive strategies come into my mind and the overall experience is arousing, better than fckin'...that once it comes into my mind I got to do it, I got it to make real, i don't want to resist the urge to put that aggressive strategy into action...that I uses like a skanky reprobate to entangle peoplez into a web of deceit. by default because I got no soul and no conscience I'm does materialism like a mthfcka and which makes me such that I'm out for everything....spiritually, morally, emotionally depraved. Shit is zero sum game and I'm always htree steps of the motherfuckers that think we are all gonna split the pie at the end, the end game is the master betrayal when I take everything fo rmyself...mmm fck yeah. So spiritual shit don't bother me. Its not there. I'm about as savage and barbaric minded as a person can be like a caveman and very primitive dead inside and spiritually depraved, cold as ice, and eyes like crystal daggers that I could pull out of my head and stab the shit out of somebody with just as they fall under the trance. i don't know love...what i call love isn't love its just me seeing another as a possession I can dominate. I just want to live big and buy anything the fck I want!!! Ain't nothign I won't do to live big. i don't give a fck about skeletons and shit. if you want to live big you do hwatever...a flick of the wrist move markets and shit. Millions ain't shit and much overrated...I want to break into them billions....I'm gonna get it too!!
Last edited by Kill4Me; 05-04-2020 at 02:04 AM.
I've been around people on both ends of the spectrum, religious nuts telling me to be content with mediocrity on one side and spoiled narcisst on the other. Overall, no, I don't like people who are materialistic. You simply can't have optimal, genuine relationships with them.
im pretty materialistic. i like to indulge in physical pleasures and its hard for me to see the bigger picture sometimes. i also set big goals in life to achieve more physical pleasure, social status and power. its probably related to being sensor. i also think theres no difference between mind and matter, since mind is made of matter, as is everything in the end.
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I grew up around someone couple years older than me. He was 16 when I was 10. Kid was a drug addicted sociopath and almost died from an OD at 21 and used to regularly fuck with everyone and everything around him to the point he was expelled from school too.. then he "found god" now he is a Rabbi and runs a very strict religious ship at home that leads to ass beatings when broken. Just an anecdotal example from someone I knew.
I've known basically one person similar to your anecdotal character, and that's my father. He has been a druggie his entire life, and he has ruined our attempted to destroy every person he has met who gets close to him. His entire life has been a massive wave of destruction. Cheating on women, beating them, leaving kids with their moms and refusing to pay child support, getting high on religion for pleasure and using it as justification for everything he wants, messing with people's heads, gaslighting, etc etc etc. He has told me a story that hints that he was like that from his early youth on, and that has never changed. He seems at times to feel the pangs of conscience, but that lasts 10 seconds before being completely gone. I've seen him in the doctor's office sitting calmly and peacefully in a relaxed pose, and the nurse ask him what his pain level was on a 1-10 scale. Suddenly, he gets all choked up and says about a 10 or an 11. A few seconds later, the choking up goes away and he's back to the way he was before.
He's depressed now about being alone, but he's had countless women over his lifetime. They all ditched him when they found out what kind of person he was. One of the last times he had a relationship, he had two going at once. Of course, it all blew up in his face just like all the times before, and he was back to nothing again.
For a lot of these types of people, their 40s are the beginning of the end and when people start to see the cracks more easily. Then there's a brief flare-up of their most terrible side in the few years before they die.
People like that often become known for what they do to others, but people for some reason give people like that countless opportunities for improvement even though they know how terrible they are and how much suffering they cause. And others who try their best to be good people get vilified and shoved down and rejected. It's a curious paradox and a great mystery.
Last edited by Aramas; 05-07-2020 at 02:14 AM.
I live in West Europe. Compared to deep Amazonia dwellers, I'm probably very materialistic. For where I live, I'm a small and careful consumer. Small energy bills. I've paid attention to such things for 20 years +
Not many electric things, most are not in use when not actually used. I eat what I can cook and avoid plastic. But seriously, there is tons of it (yes I think it's a big part of materialism). Materialism is hard to ignore in my rich country even as a poor person (here).
I'm not a money person. I live with what I need... In the area I grew up (country). So I have a TV and a mobile phone. And a fridge. I have already lived without a fridge, or a cooktop, for a year and half, in a rich country, with all conditioned and freezed, it was hard. Not impossible.
Then I wash my clothes by hand. It's a choice. No vacuum, I sweep, less cleaning products, white vinegar, yes, I think the pollution is materialistic.
Little to do with S and N.
I strive to be as spiritually oriented as possible and cast away the temptations of the flesh and material desires, but I'm not a saint so fail miserably. I like having high quality items for practical reasons, low quality stuff leads to irritation, but don't like to have many things at the same time.
It seems like a daily thing for me to look at my possessions and consider what I can get rid of to minimize my belongings. I could easily fit all my belongings in a large camping backpack if not for my love of books which extends belongings to two medium size suitcases plus backpack. Same with diet, I switch to a Huel diet primarily but kept certain foods like boiled eggs, almonds, raw and boiled vegetables, granola, peanut butter, and dairy products in it, along with herbal teas and unfortunately energy drinks which is definitely a habit I want to break.
ESE roommate thinks I'm insane by how I can eat the same things and wear a select few outfits (9 out of my 14 shirts are identical work uniform shirts lol) all the time without caring but I find it very freeing. She calls me egg man for all the eggs I have in the fridge lol.
As to other people I don't care, though most friends are not very materialistic. I couldn't be in a relationship with a very materialistic woman with a keeping up with the Jones's attitude. She doesn't have to strive for a more ascetic life like me but shouldn't be obsessed with consumption either or we would both just end up unhappy.
Materialism and consumerism are practically the same, I can't see how you could be one but not the other, so yeah; capitalism thrives on materialism and would die without it.
Materialism is more comparable to the notion of spirituality if it is examined as physicalism/naturalism. IMO seeing it as consumerism is not necessary but it does make it easier to see how pleasure and pain are related («all pleasure is pain»,«all pain is pleasure» etc.) when achieved through a mental construct.
I just find it so mind blowing that someone's mind can be wired to run this way. I refuse to believe that they are happy and okay. No matter how strong of a superior front they put on. I know these people feel like dog shit every morning when they wake up. They can't control their emotions. They think they can with denial and repression but it just makes their cracks show more and makes them act even crazier the more they deny and ignore that side of themselves.
What do you mean about your nurse example. Were you providing an example of how the manipulation he uses? Sounds very Fe if so (pertaining back to our discussion on his typing)
Money and how to obtain it is my primary focus in life. Everything else is of secondary importance. I disagree with the view that obsession with wealth does not have a "spiritual" element. Since the US left the gold standard, the $ has become very metaphysical in essence.
If I had $25 million, I may consider other philosophies.
Money is power over the material world, where we mostly spend our lives in. To be poor here is to have similar negative fate as being spiritually famished.
I am materialistic in my own way. I want to be able to get things when I want them. I want nice things. I also want to not feel bad when I look at my account balance. I want to be able to pay for my freedom too - I think the moment when you can just take a vacation without being concerned about your finances and future is when you are truly free here. As of now I am still counting my success by what I make in a month. But to be honest with you I am very sensitive to not having that internal/spiritual check. So I cannot say that I am 90-100% materialistic. This is probably just my interest with the occult speaking, but I do believe that we are meant to be more than the material, but this is a necessary phase for us to experience and suffer from, like how Dante had to go through hell first before he could be able to get a view of heaven. You have to experience the extreme end before you can have the motivation to run towards the other end, then finally have balance. I am thinking that in the future, society would yearn for the other side. We would be judged for what we are worth inside. I can already see the negatives. But again, they are all part of the process. Also, Alphas and Betas specially the IEIs would probably thrive by that time.
Do I think that being materialistic is supporting capitalism? I guess you can call it that way, but there is really no way for you to escape capitalism. We are living in an era where capitalism rules the planet, you can work your way around it or remove yourself completely from it. The latter part I can see a lot of negative effects. Comfort, luxury, the ability to immediately search for things thru the screen, these are all products of what we currently have today. I doubt that there is a way for you to be successful now without being a bit materialistic.
I think that the term spirituality is a misnomer and that talking in terms of materialism vs spirituality is misleading in a snake-biting-its-own-tail way.
the quality of being concerned with the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.
I'm using that term from Oxford
Enough material to get by but most materialism gets in the way of the life you want to live in a sense. Cuz it would be like Oprah being forced to live in a slum, in a way that's actually non ironically living in a slum not 'I'm living in a slum to help people and have a good image so I can go back to my mansion later with Steeeeadman!' She quite obviously doesn't want a slum crashing into her mansion Acme Anvil style while she's enjoying her $75,000 hot tub when the camera is off.
That was kind of a silly and ridiculous example to make you laugh but my point is that humans naturally tend to avoid any 'material' they aren't interested in or doesn't align with their own essence of themselves. You don't just go and swim in a land fill because it's 'material.' And you obviously like some materialism over others, usually at least middle mid-tier material and up. You don't want to ignore all materialism out of some stupid dopey faux-spiritual Happy Cult principal, as many objects can and will kill you if you aren't sensorically aware of their existence. It's just, people in non-third world countries tend to live their life in a way to avoid danger like that as much as possible, whenever we can?
This is related to relationships too. There's nothing wrong with being rich and fancy & a 'material girl' - but are you really going to be so 'material' you just go to some place with your friends/romantic partners that you totally ignore building a relationship with them and evolving with each other that you just are completely and totally shallow-y looking at the material side of things and nothing else? Tbh I don't think even celebrities do that much - it's too satirical. It obviously of course would make you feel really empty and shitty inside, no matter who you are. People's jobs can sometimes force people to be that way too much, but that's why everybody needs a healthy life completely separate from their jobs, and why IEIs need jobs in the first place.
You need a good balance. Materialism isn't even really the enemy, it's part of spirituality. I don't even like how some spiritual books refer to it as "the lowest realm" of spirituality before purgatory/Hell because in practice that makes no sense anyway. Wear an expensive $15,000 pair of silk boxes made from the finest Italian-Egyptian ******ry vs. IZOD brand from Wal-Mart and tell me they are lower class, I dare you! It's not the lower realm. It's just the higher you go spirituality, the more you are better put them in their right 'place' for how useful they are in the moment. It's not even so much a better/worse or high/low thing.
And as they say 'you can't take it with you.' The only thing people tend to remember is how you made them feel.
We are dealing with different meanings here imo. In society as a lifestyle:
In philosophy: Materialism, also called physicalism, the view that all facts (including facts about the human mind and will and the course of human history) are causally dependent upon physical processes, or even reducible to them. Aka you are just a flesh-machine, the universe is just a mechanistic system and nothing really has any meaning. Both capitalism and socialism are materialistic in this sense as they reduce everything to it and disregard the transcendental.
Money, resources are tools. You only need enough to achieve your ends.
“Modern man has not only to fight against materialism, but must also defend himself from the snares and allures of false supernaturalism. His defense will be firm and effective only if he is capable of returning to the origins, of assimilating the ancient traditions, and then of relying upon the ascetics to carry out the task of reestablishing his inner condition. For it is through this that these traditions will reveal to him their deepest and perennially real content and show him, step by step, the path.” - Evola
We live beyond your modern man
And all his justifications for his world of progress
And though he has created his alibis by falsifying history
By smearing what was left of our name
By insinuating poisonous myths in the minds of our peoples
By proclaiming himself sovereign at the crossroads of ideologies
This, his modern civilization is not superior
It is not enlightened nor privileged
This man of progress is a decrepit man
A defeated, crepuscular man
In the dark as to whence and whither
He is moving from nothing to nothingness
He has neithеr shape nor form
Neither gracе nor purpose
And yet, in his cadaverous wisdom
Is glorified as the overcomer, the justifier and liberator
In an otherwise dark and superstitious world
But rest assured
You, who deem yourselves masters of the earth
We have not vanished
We, late children of the tradition
Still have dominion over you
We have dominion over you
In terrible silence you stood at the world's end
And crawled into the sun
Blinded by the signal fires
That seared your heart
And the seething tongues of the lies we became
I sat in Babel's tower
And judged the world
Said I spoke the language
Of saints and sinners
But preached the world was flat
And slipped between the cracks
In horror I strode to the world's end
Saw some torn by hunger
Others broken by steel
But by the bitterest fortune
Cursed the heathen and holy
But found no relief
We sat in Babel's tower
And fought over the world
I never spoke the language
Of your saints and sinners
Of men nor beast
Who roamed this flat earth
Liars tongues seethe in fire
At the end of harsh white lines
We set the world to rights
Yet I awoke in the same black spirit
State once again
And we sat in judgement in Babel's tower
I care about aesthetics, health and social power the most when it comes to the objective world. Certain things I actually enjoy being spartan and minimalistic about, such as sleeping on the ground, but I also occasionally like to consoom high quality fancy things too. It’s far more important for me to have freedom and convenience than it is to have endless swag and bounty. My style is slick and versatile.
To each their own, but I think too much of an interest in acquiring material stuff and decadence is going to correlate with selfishness and greed, and too much asceticism is going to correlate with repression, denial, unrealistic thinking and a moral superiority complex. Being broke means you can’t support anyone, and you need to rely on others to support you, so being too non-materialistic is childish and irresponsible.
The physical, embodied and visceral informs the spiritual and vice versa.
Think of religious aesthetics, rituals (especially ones which require physical movement) and architecture. All transient and corporeal but reflective of higher principles or the divine.
Being strictly materialistic is not necessarily without sophistication and driven by the influence of capitalism/communism etc., for example Stoic philosophy.
As for my views on consumerism, looks and money etc.:
Consumerism I treat in moderation, I buy a few high quality (usually expensive but in reason) things I like every month.
Aesthetics is important to me for various reasons, but how I present myself to others is a reflection of how I see myself and vice versa, this all tied up on my views of a person needing to recognise and take part in society. Partially why I've decided to weight lift is to embolden my physical sense of grounding and capacity/power in the world, because in part to be human is to move and manipulate physical surroundings. I'm treating becoming strong as teleological, how my body looks is visceral representation of this.
Money for me is security/protection from emergencies, so my attitude is to always have more if I can get it/save it.
A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
(Jung on Si)
The more enslaved we become to the material world, the more willingly we offer ourselves as living sacrifices to the coming communist technocrat overlords who promise us material comfort through the guise of equality. The further we stray from that which created us, the more synthetic we become. It's been insidiously embedded into our unconscious (propagandizing itself in film, music, political facade) - subtly preparing us along the way. And lo! It's now unfolding in front of our very eyes!
We all bow to something...
If you become enslaved to the gods of this dying world, you will perish along with it.
Unfortunately, those who are warning of this coming disaster are being treated as lunatics. Modern day 'John the Baptists'. The voice of one crying in the wilderness - as Jung would put it.
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
succeeding sandcastles; hereafter,
becoming antonymn to disaster
I'm not really sure what I'm comparing myself against, but if it's like, how dependent am I on the trappings and niceties of modern society, I'd say very. I'd go through a form of withdrawal if you took my toys (books, games, phone, Netflix, etc.) away from me.
If its like how much bling do I like, then I'd say a little never hurts but I don't go out of my way to get it. And even then it's nerdy bling (nice sports smartwatch, self-driving car, etc.) that I'm excited to have because of what you can do with it.
To be perfectly honest, I see money as bargaining power. And I naturally seek out ways to maximize that, within ethical and moral guidelines however. For example, I won't false advertise or try to scam people or take advantage of people either. I will however find ways to make more money or get paid well for helping people or doing things for them. But I don't know if that makes me a materialist; perhaps it doesn't. I usually don't buy the latest gadgets or worry about having lots of expensive toys. It's easier to keep things simple and just indulge in things I find interesting or enjoy (like this).
And I don't know if that has much to do with spirituality either, since I consider myself to be more open about accepting negative experiences and emotions than most people seem to. I have a lot in common with Buddhist ideas about existence. So I consider myself both spiritual and someone that sees the value in having bargaining power, though I don't really consider myself a capitalist or materialist, more an opportunist. Is that the same thing? And so I'm confused now...
Praise Anubis, our lord and savior.