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    Default Materialism

    This is like the "spirituality" thread, but in reverse.

    How materialistic are you? Do you think being materialistic corresponds to higher support for capitalism? Do you like materialistic people or do you find them insufferable?

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    capitalism is based on individualism and materialism

    S types are more materialistic in the interests. Though their high ideals may be other.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    When it's used as derisive, what's typically connoted by "materialism" are rapacity, and/or obsession with signalling social status through possessions. Cautious economizing of one's resources and strengths may prioritize material interests over spiritual, but this would certainly not mean conspicuous consumption or rapacity to point of exhaustion; these run counter to one's material self-interest.

    Spiritual matters are internal to the mind on a low-level, making their valuation a matter of personal choice, so whenever someone laments "the devaluation of our spiritual values for materialism" in context of a civic discussion, it connotes that a collective spirituality is what is meant, not personal.
    Arguments that "True spirituality must come from a collective level", by necessity, assume a consequentialist absolute value of common spiritual good at the expense of any value that contests it, even personal choice.

    Group evolution makes it easy to understand the benefits collective spirituality confers, but the irony is that the net benefits to the human group are largely material ones. In absence of collective spirituality, many individuals may find, or claim to find, personal spirituality sufficient to themselves, and since this is an internal and transcendental matter, its benefits on an internal level are impossible to quantify versus collective spirituality. The only obvious edge collective spirituality has over personal is the material benefits.



    If you're pushing collective spirituality to the extent that participance is no longer voluntary, the benefit of spirituality as a thing-in-it-self is likely being pushed in bad faith.
    This isn't inherent in simply proselytizing a spiritual belief to other people in order to build a collective from the ground-up. But, when these same types complain that "our capitalist system is too materialistic," what is really meant is "your central collective doesn't take enough action in accordance with our goals." It's a frame-game to make absence of one framework look like an unwanted enforcement of another.
    I'm not even totally devoted to capitalism as a thing-in-itself, to the point where the "Free Trade" spook overrides the good of my own in-group, but at the same time, I don't think a certain degree of individualist value has to be completely abolished either.

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    i'm mad materialistic but not as an end that shit just keeps score at the end of the day that I'm beating the fck out of everyone but really its the spinnin webs of deceit....there's a lot of vanity and lust too. because when i want soemthing really i get it no matter what. thats what makes me so untrustworthy, is that hwen i see opportunity to takez what i want i just always take it like clockwork even if I fck a lot people over. but when always got big wad of cash peeling bills off when i seez something i want but love to bargain down people for it....either i'm connin or intimidatin'...or talkin' trash and very rude to people even flips the fck out a lot. I'll bully con intimidate puppetmaster even if I know ain' tnothing going to come out of it in terms of gain, just because I enjoy it, pushing up like that..honestly there's a lot of vanity too because my own greed turns me on sexually, lickin' my lip and just laughing maniacally to myself as new webs of deceit to spin and aggressive strategies come into my mind and the overall experience is arousing, better than fckin'...that once it comes into my mind I got to do it, I got it to make real, i don't want to resist the urge to put that aggressive strategy into action...that I uses like a skanky reprobate to entangle peoplez into a web of deceit. by default because I got no soul and no conscience I'm does materialism like a mthfcka and which makes me such that I'm out for everything....spiritually, morally, emotionally depraved. Shit is zero sum game and I'm always htree steps of the motherfuckers that think we are all gonna split the pie at the end, the end game is the master betrayal when I take everything fo rmyself...mmm fck yeah. So spiritual shit don't bother me. Its not there. I'm about as savage and barbaric minded as a person can be like a caveman and very primitive dead inside and spiritually depraved, cold as ice, and eyes like crystal daggers that I could pull out of my head and stab the shit out of somebody with just as they fall under the trance. i don't know love...what i call love isn't love its just me seeing another as a possession I can dominate. I just want to live big and buy anything the fck I want!!! Ain't nothign I won't do to live big. i don't give a fck about skeletons and shit. if you want to live big you do hwatever...a flick of the wrist move markets and shit. Millions ain't shit and much overrated...I want to break into them billions....I'm gonna get it too!!
    Last edited by Kill4Me; 05-04-2020 at 01:04 AM.

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    I've been around people on both ends of the spectrum, religious nuts telling me to be content with mediocrity on one side and spoiled narcisst on the other. Overall, no, I don't like people who are materialistic. You simply can't have optimal, genuine relationships with them.

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    im pretty materialistic. i like to indulge in physical pleasures and its hard for me to see the bigger picture sometimes. i also set big goals in life to achieve more physical pleasure, social status and power. its probably related to being sensor. i also think theres no difference between mind and matter, since mind is made of matter, as is everything in the end.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    I've been around people on both ends of the spectrum, religious nuts telling me to be content with mediocrity on one side and spoiled narcisst on the other. Overall, no, I don't like people who are materialistic. You simply can't have optimal, genuine relationships with them.
    Religious nuts are often the most narcissistic people you'll meet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Religious nuts are often the most narcissistic people you'll meet.
    Yup they use religion to justify their abusive and controlling behavior.

    I grew up around someone couple years older than me. He was 16 when I was 10. Kid was a drug addicted sociopath and almost died from an OD at 21 and used to regularly fuck with everyone and everything around him to the point he was expelled from school too.. then he "found god" now he is a Rabbi and runs a very strict religious ship at home that leads to ass beatings when broken. Just an anecdotal example from someone I knew.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingslayer View Post
    Yup they use religion to justify their abusive and controlling behavior.

    I grew up around someone couple years older than me. He was 16 when I was 10. Kid was a drug addicted sociopath and almost died from an OD at 21 and used to regularly fuck with everyone and everything around him to the point he was expelled from school too.. then he "found god" now he is a Rabbi and runs a very strict religious ship at home that leads to ass beatings when broken. Just an anecdotal example from someone I knew.
    I feel like I've known many people who use religion as a ploy to hide their malicious behavior. When you deal with these people, you have to be aware that they are basically 100% conscious of what they're doing. Their entire lives revolve around manipulating people to get what they want. For many of them, I think they choose religion as their guise because it's easy. You don't have to deal with critical thinking or evidence. And if something doesn't work out, there's always a reason.

    I've known basically one person similar to your anecdotal character, and that's my father. He has been a druggie his entire life, and he has ruined our attempted to destroy every person he has met who gets close to him. His entire life has been a massive wave of destruction. Cheating on women, beating them, leaving kids with their moms and refusing to pay child support, getting high on religion for pleasure and using it as justification for everything he wants, messing with people's heads, gaslighting, etc etc etc. He has told me a story that hints that he was like that from his early youth on, and that has never changed. He seems at times to feel the pangs of conscience, but that lasts 10 seconds before being completely gone. I've seen him in the doctor's office sitting calmly and peacefully in a relaxed pose, and the nurse ask him what his pain level was on a 1-10 scale. Suddenly, he gets all choked up and says about a 10 or an 11. A few seconds later, the choking up goes away and he's back to the way he was before.

    He's depressed now about being alone, but he's had countless women over his lifetime. They all ditched him when they found out what kind of person he was. One of the last times he had a relationship, he had two going at once. Of course, it all blew up in his face just like all the times before, and he was back to nothing again.

    For a lot of these types of people, their 40s are the beginning of the end and when people start to see the cracks more easily. Then there's a brief flare-up of their most terrible side in the few years before they die.

    People like that often become known for what they do to others, but people for some reason give people like that countless opportunities for improvement even though they know how terrible they are and how much suffering they cause. And others who try their best to be good people get vilified and shoved down and rejected. It's a curious paradox and a great mystery.
    Last edited by Aramas; 05-07-2020 at 01:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    i'm mad materialistic but not as an end that shit just keeps score at the end of the day that I'm beating the fck out of everyone but really its the spinnin webs of deceit....there's a lot of vanity and lust too. because when i want soemthing really i get it no matter what. thats what makes me so untrustworthy, is that hwen i see opportunity to takez what i want i just always take it like clockwork even if I fck a lot people over. but when always got big wad of cash peeling bills off when i seez something i want but love to bargain down people for it....either i'm connin or intimidatin'...or talkin' trash and very rude to people even flips the fck out a lot. I'll bully con intimidate puppetmaster even if I know ain' tnothing going to come out of it in terms of gain, just because I enjoy it, pushing up like that..honestly there's a lot of vanity too because my own greed turns me on sexually, lickin' my lip and just laughing maniacally to myself as new webs of deceit to spin and aggressive strategies come into my mind and the overall experience is arousing, better than fckin'...that once it comes into my mind I got to do it, I got it to make real, i don't want to resist the urge to put that aggressive strategy into action...that I uses like a skanky reprobate to entangle peoplez into a web of deceit. by default because I got no soul and no conscience I'm does materialism like a mthfcka and which makes me such that I'm out for everything....spiritually, morally, emotionally depraved. Shit is zero sum game and I'm always htree steps of the motherfuckers that think we are all gonna split the pie at the end, the end game is the master betrayal when I take everything fo rmyself...mmm fck yeah. So spiritual shit don't bother me. Its not there. I'm about as savage and barbaric minded as a person can be like a caveman and very primitive dead inside and spiritually depraved, cold as ice, and eyes like crystal daggers that I could pull out of my head and stab the shit out of somebody with just as they fall under the trance. i don't know love...what i call love isn't love its just me seeing another as a possession I can dominate. I just want to live big and buy anything the fck I want!!! Ain't nothign I won't do to live big. i don't give a fck about skeletons and shit. if you want to live big you do hwatever...a flick of the wrist move markets and shit. Millions ain't shit and much overrated...I want to break into them billions....I'm gonna get it too!!
    Quoted for posterity and an example of the kind of behavior @kingslayer mentioned.

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    I live in West Europe. Compared to deep Amazonia dwellers, I'm probably very materialistic. For where I live, I'm a small and careful consumer. Small energy bills. I've paid attention to such things for 20 years +
    Not many electric things, most are not in use when not actually used. I eat what I can cook and avoid plastic. But seriously, there is tons of it (yes I think it's a big part of materialism). Materialism is hard to ignore in my rich country even as a poor person (here).

    I'm not a money person. I live with what I need... In the area I grew up (country). So I have a TV and a mobile phone. And a fridge. I have already lived without a fridge, or a cooktop, for a year and half, in a rich country, with all conditioned and freezed, it was hard. Not impossible.

    Then I wash my clothes by hand. It's a choice. No vacuum, I sweep, less cleaning products, white vinegar, yes, I think the pollution is materialistic.

    Little to do with S and N.

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    I strive to be as spiritually oriented as possible and cast away the temptations of the flesh and material desires, but I'm not a saint so fail miserably. I like having high quality items for practical reasons, low quality stuff leads to irritation, but don't like to have many things at the same time.

    It seems like a daily thing for me to look at my possessions and consider what I can get rid of to minimize my belongings. I could easily fit all my belongings in a large camping backpack if not for my love of books which extends belongings to two medium size suitcases plus backpack. Same with diet, I switch to a Huel diet primarily but kept certain foods like boiled eggs, almonds, raw and boiled vegetables, granola, peanut butter, and dairy products in it, along with herbal teas and unfortunately energy drinks which is definitely a habit I want to break.

    ESE roommate thinks I'm insane by how I can eat the same things and wear a select few outfits (9 out of my 14 shirts are identical work uniform shirts lol) all the time without caring but I find it very freeing. She calls me egg man for all the eggs I have in the fridge lol.

    As to other people I don't care, though most friends are not very materialistic. I couldn't be in a relationship with a very materialistic woman with a keeping up with the Jones's attitude. She doesn't have to strive for a more ascetic life like me but shouldn't be obsessed with consumption either or we would both just end up unhappy.

    Materialism and consumerism are practically the same, I can't see how you could be one but not the other, so yeah; capitalism thrives on materialism and would die without it.

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    Materialism is more comparable to the notion of spirituality if it is examined as physicalism/naturalism. IMO seeing it as consumerism is not necessary but it does make it easier to see how pleasure and pain are related («all pleasure is pain»,«all pain is pleasure» etc.) when achieved through a mental construct.
    Last edited by Kalinoche buenasnoches; 05-07-2020 at 10:56 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    I feel like I've known many people who use religion as a ploy to hide their malicious behavior. When you deal with these people, you have to be aware that they are basically 100% conscious of what they're doing. Their entire lives revolve around manipulating people to get what they want. For many of them, I think they choose religion as their guise because it's easy. You don't have to deal with critical thinking or evidence. And if something doesn't work out, there's always a reason.

    I've known basically one person similar to your anecdotal character, and that's my father. He has been a druggie his entire life, and he has ruined our attempted to destroy every person he has met who gets close to him. His entire life has been a massive wave of destruction. Cheating on women, beating them, leaving kids with their moms and refusing to pay child support, getting high on religion for pleasure and using it as justification for everything he wants, messing with people's heads, gaslighting, etc etc etc. He has told me a story that hints that he was like that from his early youth on, and that has never changed. He seems at times to feel the pangs of conscience, but that lasts 10 seconds before being completely gone. I've seen him in the doctor's office sitting calmly and peacefully in a relaxed pose, and the nurse ask him what his pain level was on a 1-10 scale. Suddenly, he gets all choked up and says about a 10 or an 11. A few seconds later, the choking up goes away and he's back to the way he was before.

    He's depressed now about being alone, but he's had countless women over his lifetime. They all ditched him when they found out what kind of person he was. One of the last times he had a relationship, he had two going at once. Of course, it all blew up in his face just like all the times before, and he was back to nothing again.

    For a lot of these types of people, their 40s are the beginning of the end and when people start to see the cracks more easily. Then there's a brief flare-up of their most terrible side in the few years before they die.

    People like that often become known for what they do to others, but people for some reason give people like that countless opportunities for improvement even though they know how terrible they are and how much suffering they cause. And others who try their best to be good people get vilified and shoved down and rejected. It's a curious paradox and a great mystery.
    Very well said, great descriptive post on this behavior. There's not much more I can add.

    I just find it so mind blowing that someone's mind can be wired to run this way. I refuse to believe that they are happy and okay. No matter how strong of a superior front they put on. I know these people feel like dog shit every morning when they wake up. They can't control their emotions. They think they can with denial and repression but it just makes their cracks show more and makes them act even crazier the more they deny and ignore that side of themselves.

    What do you mean about your nurse example. Were you providing an example of how the manipulation he uses? Sounds very Fe if so (pertaining back to our discussion on his typing)

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingslayer View Post
    Very well said, great descriptive post on this behavior. There's not much more I can add.

    I just find it so mind blowing that someone's mind can be wired to run this way. I refuse to believe that they are happy and okay. No matter how strong of a superior front they put on. I know these people feel like dog shit every morning when they wake up. They can't control their emotions. They think they can with denial and repression but it just makes their cracks show more and makes them act even crazier the more they deny and ignore that side of themselves.

    What do you mean about your nurse example. Were you providing an example of how the manipulation he uses? Sounds very Fe if so (pertaining back to our discussion on his typing)
    It's an example of shallow emotionality or acting in an attempt to get prescription painkillers.

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