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Thread: There's no J/P switch

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    Default There's no J/P switch

    This thread would be used for MBTI and Socionics theory and Introverted Types Comparison.

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    Default J VS P

    JUDGING AND PROSPECTING (MBTI)

    JUDGING

    Judging individuals are decisive, thorough and highly organized. They value clarity, predictability and closure, preferring structure and planning to spontaneity.

    -72% of those with the Judging trait say they are focused on and dedicated to their goals and rarely get sidetracked, compared to 21% of those with the Prospecting trait.

    -66% of those with the Judging trait say they set specific goals that they hope to accomplish each day, compared to 34% of those with the Prospecting trait.

    -Whether a life goal or a response to an emergency, people with the Judging personality trait can develop a clear and actionable plan.

    PROSPECTING


    Prospecting individuals are very good at improvising and spotting opportunities. They tend to be flexible, relaxed nonconformists who prefer keeping their options open.

    -76% of those with the Prospecting trait say it’s hard for them to focus on one thing for a long period of time, compared to 50% of those with Judging trait.

    -69% of those with the Prospecting trait say they jump from one topic in a conversation to another quickly, compared to 47% of those with the Judging trait.

    -When a passion takes them, there’s no masking a Prospecting type’s excitement.


    JUDGING AND PERCEIVING (SOCIONICS)

    Rationals
    (Also called shizotymes in early socionics literature)
    1. Tend to plan ahead, make decisions early.
    2. Are more often rigid and stubborn.
    3. Do not like to change their decisions.
    4. Tend to finish what they started.
    5. Usually have stiff movements.
    6. Usually more 'authoritarian' leadership style.
    7. Low stress tolerance.

    Irrationals
    (Also called cyclotymes in early socionics literature)
    1. Tend to wait and see, more spontaneous.
    2. Are more often flexible and tolerant.
    3. Change their decisions frequently.
    4. Tend to start new things without finishing them.
    5. Usually have gentle movements.
    6. Usually more 'democratic' leadership style.
    7. High stress tolerance.


    Why cyclothymia seem impulsive, and CG Jung called even irrational? Because of their movements, actions and emotions are always a consequence of some feeling, some kind of mental state. The answer to the emerging sense of comfort, discomfort, serenity or uncertainty. Cyclothymia internally before swinging, and only then react to a situation or emotion act. The emotions and actions of others they did not immediately respond. More precisely - not react to their actions and emotions, and by these actions caused feelings. Therefore, their reaction would be as slow, smooth, very adapted to the situation, but no pre-thought-out, "creative". Many actions simply "out of habit," to the established guidelines. Schizothyme react to the emotion of emotion to act an act not swayed at once. React very wisely, thoughtfully, on the basis of past experience. Therefore seem to be more rigorous, decisive, "rational", their movements faster and more angular, sharper and emotions cool. Feeling for schizothyme - a consequence of the act, rather than its cause: after proper action or emotion feel better, is good, after an incorrect action it worsens. Therefore, both the actions and manifestations of emotions and to think carefully studied. If schizothyme feel bad, they think, what was done wrong, dig into the past to have experience in the future. When cyclothymia feel bad, they think not about the past and the future: what should be done to change the mood.- Dual Nature of Man, Ausra
    Last edited by Tommy; 05-05-2020 at 02:39 AM.

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    I'm a pretty clear-cut INFJ in the MBTI, both in terms of the four dichotomies and the eight cognitive functions, but I'm definitely not an INFj in Socionics. I am most likely an ILI, an EIE, or an IEI.

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    Regardless of the J/P switch, MBTI is basically a load of Forer-Effect BS. It has a foundation of truth, because of its roots in Jung, but that is about it. There is no real relationship between the functions and type profiles. If you read carefully and critically, you'll see there is not real difference between e.g. INFJ and INFP profiles.

    https://mavericksocionics.blogspot.c...fi-and-fe.html

    Hence, the J/P switch is largely a theoretical matter without any practical consequences.
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    J and P mean different things in MBTI and Socionics.

    In MBTI, the J/P dichotomy describes the way the person orients toward the world (Je/Pi vs. Ji/Pe).

    In Socionics, the J/P dichotomy describes irrational leading function vs. rational leading function.

    Ultimately, MBTI and Socionics both serve as interpretations of Jung's work on functions and personality types.

    Since the defining features of Socionics' J/P dichotomy and MBTI's J/P dichotomy are conceptually independent of each other, and both systems describe the same thing, I believe J/P "switches" between systems are accurate.

    OP is demonstrative Ti in a nutshell.

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    MBTI has too many flaws so it is meaningless to "convert" anything. Socionics has already corrected the mistakes so that the types are described properly.

    It's really sad that the whole world is using a misinterpretation of Jung. But it comes close enough to reality so that even MBTI people can see that they have found something big. That's why MBTI is still alive.

    Because of Socionics /Jung there is absolutely no reason to use MBTI. It's pure convention and lack of better knowledge.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    Jung used both terms for the same in his book "Psychological types": rational/irrational and judging/perceiving functions.
    Same as introverted types are so because have introverted leading function, rational/judging types are so because have judging leading function.
    In MBTI texts for INTJ type is said: Ni, Te, Fi, Se. As the leading function of judging type is said perceiving function, - it's the nonsense. The other difference is that by Jung all 3 last function have same E/I.

    just read Jung, kids
    the majority never does this and such predisposes them to trust to heretic nonsenses as they do not understand what is the core theory

    P.S. Jung's book was my second typology book, after Filatova's "Personality in the mirror of Socionics". The main useful info is in X chapter, which sometimes was even published separately. Jung's book should be avalilable in digital form in Internet. Some Filatova's books are available also.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    nonsense on many levels. as others said before: - the 2 theories work by slightly different premises

    I add:
    - much depends on the testing process.
    - if the introverts don't switch, a priori, then extroverts should (using the same functions)
    - your quoted percentage show, for example, that a 20% of MBTI J introverts are scattered, so will they still be socionics J "because there's no switch"?

    how does your theory hold up to individuals rather than on stereotyping?

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    An MBTI ISFP values Fi, Se, Ni, and Te. Those are the same valued functions as an ISFj/ESI. MBTI should demonstrate a J/P switch if it measures the same traits as in Socionics.

    I was always under the impression that MBTI uses the “j/p” system it does because it more accurately reflects the similarity between mirror types. “ESTP” and “ISTP” look more similar than “ESTp and ISTj”.

    A heretic opinion of mine is that MBTI actually has something going for determining j/p with the first extraverted function. I admittedly am not absolutely sure of my type, but LII seems generally accurate, and almost every other typing I’ve received has me as an introverted rational. At the same time I’d say I relate somewhat more to the perceiving characteristics: I tend to read multiple books at once, I’ve started many projects I gave up, I don’t like to plan in much detail for the future, and I can usually change my decisions easily.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Everlast View Post
    J and P mean different things in MBTI and Socionics.

    In MBTI, the J/P dichotomy describes the way the person orients toward the world (Je/Pi vs. Ji/Pe).

    In Socionics, the J/P dichotomy describes irrational leading function vs. rational leading function.
    And how would you define rational/irrational? The definitions I posted above describe pretty much the same thing imo.

    Ultimately, MBTI and Socionics both serve as interpretations of Jung's work on functions and personality types.

    Since the defining features of Socionics' J/P dichotomy and MBTI's J/P dichotomy are conceptually independent of each other, and both systems describe the same thing, I believe J/P "switches" between systems are accurate.
    One of these two sentences invalidate the other because I'm ISTP in mbti.

    OP is demonstrative Ti in a nutshell.
    I think your comment is Te ignoring in a nutshell.

    Nice to see you around btw
    Last edited by Tommy; 05-02-2020 at 12:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    An MBTI ISFP values Fi, Se, Ni, and Te. Those are the same valued functions as an ISFj/ESI. MBTI should demonstrate a J/P switch if it measures the same traits as in Socionics.

    I was always under the impression that MBTI uses the “j/p” system it does because it more accurately reflects the similarity between mirror types. “ESTP” and “ISTP” look more similar than “ESTp and ISTj”.

    A heretic opinion of mine is that MBTI actually has something going for determining j/p with the first extraverted function. I admittedly am not absolutely sure of my type, but LII seems generally accurate, and almost every other typing I’ve received has me as an introverted rational. At the same time I’d say I relate somewhat more to the perceiving characteristics: I tend to read multiple books at once, I’ve started many projects I gave up, I don’t like to plan in much detail for the future, and I can usually change my decisions easily.
    I think mbti doesn't manage valued or unvalued functions as socionics do, but if they were, 3rd and 4th functions would not be "valued" anyway. Charts below.










    ISFP Fi Se Ni Te are not "valued" functions as they are in socionics. 3rd or Tertiary is an undeveloped "unvalued" function and the 4th is actually the "danger zone", pretty much the same as PoLR and Role in socionics. Here some quotes.






    MBTI TERTIARY

    The third-preferred, or tertiary, function tends to be less interesting to individuals, and they tend to have fewer skills associated with it. The letter of this function does not appear in your type. It is the opposite function from the auxiliary function. If, for example, your auxiliary function is Thinking, then your tertiary will be Feeling.

    Development of this function tends to come later in life (about midlife) after you have grown and feel comfortable with the dominant and auxiliary. As you grow and develop, you learn that there is a time and place to use your third and fourth functions.

    About this time, the question arises in life, is this all there is? The tertiary function can guide you toward areas of your life you have avoided, areas that require skills you do not feel comfortable using. For example, a Thinking type with tertiary Intuition may begin taking literature courses. A Thinking type with tertiary Sensing may begin doing carpentry or weaving. https://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-...ion.htm?bhcp=1
    SOCIONICS ROLE
    3. Role Function

    When a person is actively using his base function, the role function is essentially turned off. The two cannot both be "on" at the same time, because they represent two opposing approaches to similar things. Because of this opposition, the more one gets carried away with one's base function, the more the role function is ignored or suppressed. People are generally somewhat aware of this suppression and perceive it as a personal weakness that needs to be "worked on" in order to meet other people's expectations and achieve something in society. It is typical for people to periodically work on their role function in order to correct imbalances in their life and improve their weak areas. However, these attempts are generally sporadic and are forgotten as soon as the perceived problem begins to go away and the person once again becomes carried away with their usual lifestyle which is dominated by their base function. Thus, development of the role function is more like patching up leaks than building a complete, self-sufficient structure. Often individuals wish they could build up their role function and become "supermen", but an excessive focus on this unreachable goal brings disappointment, because the base function always wins anyways.

    When people are criticized for their lack of attentiveness to their role function, they are often irritated because they are already well aware of the deficiency and have already tried and failed to correct it. When problems arise with the role function, energy flows away from the base function, the individual brings his usual activities to a halt, and tries to pick up all the tasks he had been neglecting. Directing energy through the base function is effortless; working with the role function requires effort and concentration. Thus, people's concept of self-development is often centered on development of the role function and the Super-Ego block in general.

    Compared to the vulnerable function, role function criticism is easier for a person to respond to or dismiss, since they believe that it has some value, in theory. The role function is triggered situationally, when individuals are met with situations that oppose their base aspect of reality. The base function only accepts information relating to its information aspect, and other information cannot be produced into new data with the creative function.https://www.sociotype.com/socionics/functions/Super-Ego
    MBTI FOURTH
    The fourth-preferred, or inferior, function tends to be the least interesting to individuals, and they tend to have even fewer skills associated with it. Development of this function tends to come in late midlife. It can be the source of great stress, or it can be a seed for significant development.

    For example, if Thinking were your dominant function, Feeling would be your least-preferred function. You would probably have significantly less interest in and fewer skills with the Feeling function (e.g., attending to harmony in relationships, giving weight to the personal aspects of decision making).

    We often call the fourth function the inferior function when it emerges without conscious intention and tries to overpower the dominant and auxiliary. This can lead to a person feeling “in the grip” of his or her inferior function. The inferior may also manifest under stress, when resources of the dominant and auxiliary are exhausted. When the inferior function manifests in someone's life, that person may say, “I don't know what got into me.” It often feels like being out of control (outside the conscious ego). The inferior may manifest in negative, immature ways.

    For example, Intuition as an inferior Intuition may manifest not as creative possibilities, but rather as worry over every possibility that can go wrong. Sensing may manifest not as attention to details, but rather as an obsession with them.https://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-...r-function.htm
    SOCIONICS PoLR

    4. Vulnerable Function

    The vulnerable function is also called the Point or Place of Least Resistance (PoLR) or sensitive function. The element in this function creates a feeling of frustration and inadequacy. A person does not understand the importance of this element entirely, and it can easily lead to painful consequences if not adequately considered.

    However, to directly engage this function creates feelings of insecurity and distress. One reason why the vulnerable function is so difficult to engage is because three other conscious functions come before it, making this one the most difficult to comprehend. Often an alternative approach may be found from the view of the mobilizing function. Because of the psychological disincentives to using the vulnerable function, people usually try to ignore information related to it, and in extreme cases do so even in situations where it is most relevant. Even with a theoretical understanding of how this element works, it is difficult to turn it into practical norms of behavior. One can "develop" the vulnerable function by recognizing that it is actually important in certain real-life circumstances. Even if the subject recognizes this, he will still usually try to avoid taking responsibility for it himself, or develop a minimalist or non-traditional approach (possibly using other functions) that is enough to satisfy one's own needs. The presence of a dual usually dissolves any concern there might be about how to approach matters of the vulnerable function.https://www.sociotype.com/socionics/functions/Super-Ego
    Last edited by Tommy; 05-06-2020 at 10:14 PM.

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    The difference between the two systems is all a matter of perspective and the modelling in both is flawed. MBTI seems to take an independent observer perspective so the externalized component of processing is key. I'm an INTj-Ti subtype so in MBTI, I show up as INTJ; the INTj-Ne subtypes seem to often show up as INTP in MBTI perhaps because Ne is online more. I find that MBTI often better describes my actual "observed" behaviour but it's got everything else wrong whereas Socionics descriptions seem to neglect that aspect of how types might appear to others regardless of what's going on the inside......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Yea easy to believe when ur more likely to be LSI
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    I think there are more issues than this with MBTI as others have noticed. I often have tested as J in MBTI. I just don’t think dichotomies discerned with one-time self-testing using shittily made tests are relevant at all, unless they’ve been proven with computer algorithms to have relevant traits in cross-cultural trials over the long term, as with Big 5 (and that still has plenty of problems, like with how it depends on the culture).

    I think also that Socionics can be converted to MBTI, but not the other way around (again since MBTI is filled with issues), if and only if the P/J is turned into an “x”. Many introverts are saying that their switched J/P matches their behavior more, but many others are also saying the unswitched ones match their behavior more. Still others are saying it depends on subtype. I think it would be best to include all of this information and people’s experiences and just take the J/P out altogether from MBTI if we’re going to convert it, in that case. They can refer to the types with the ego JCFs, e.g. SiTe or TiSe, etc.

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    idk all the issues with the systems, but observing myself I to fit INFP and INFj, the way the functions are described in MBTI I've seen in use in my own life and the way they are described in socionics seem to have some extra subtleties that I don't quite see in my self or understand enough to see. Either way I relate to more aspects of the irrational description that the rational, but I don't relate to Ne ignoring since Ne is the most obvious function I see in myself, and Fi is the function I feel the strongest internally, I also observe I have lesser capacity with Ne that at times I can get exhausted from over use, but have an addiction to Fi that I can easily overindulge if I'm not careful. Functional breakdown makes sense to me in socionics but I relate to half and half on the EII/IEI type descriptions. In MBTI I relate only to the INFP description and the functions are evident in my own life.

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    A quick look at MBTI descriptions give strong hints for no J/P switch:

    ISFJ and ISFP

    These seem to describe ESI and SEI

    So no switch, but the functions are fucked up. That's because MBTI is fucked up. Just look at their description of Si. It is assigned to the ISFJ type, and it might actually fit that type, but it's meaning is totally different from Socionics/Jung.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    A quick look at MBTI descriptions give strong hints for no J/P switch:

    ISFJ and ISFP

    These seem to describe ESI and SEI

    So no switch, but the functions are fucked up. That's because MBTI is fucked up. Just look at their description of Si. It is assigned to the ISFJ type, and it might actually fit that type, but it's meaning is totally different from Socionics/Jung.
    You are right, I was about to post them but I haven't finished the comparison yet. I think ppl who say that they identify with J in mbti but p in socionics or the opposite haven't read such descriptions in a while. Also some say that descriptions are "stereotypes" and the correct way of doing it is through IEs or functions but seem to not get that descriptions are actually just extended versions of IEs and Functions.

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    I don't go by the generic type descriptions in the MBTI. They're usually not based on much of anything except highly speculative ideas, without an ounce of evidence behind them, about how a given type would behave. And I totally disagree that the vast majority of those profiles are derived from the eight cognitive processes; many, perhaps even most MBTI practitioners don't even acknowledge function usage, preferring instead to type people on the basis of the four dichotomies.

    The simple answer, I think, is that the two systems are looking at different things that in some cases have similar or identical names but which, in reality, only overlap to a certain, incomplete extent. Because things in one system only overlap with things in the other system to an imperfect extent, there is room for a J/P switch and many other kinds of switches to happen in different cases.

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    INFJ
    1. See the better version of ppl and treat them as such. /Fi Ne
    2. Moral Idealism (1) Fi
    3. Able to take concrete steps to achieve goals and get a long lasting positive impact. (7) Te, j.
    4. Helping others is very important for them. (1) Fi
    5. They care to get to the core of the problems. /Ne
    6. Soft-spoken but strongly opinionated achievers. /Fi,Ne
    7. Non egoistically decisive and strong willed ppl.
    8. Creativity, imagination, conviction and sensitivity to create balance.
    9. Egalitarism and karma are attractive ideas for them. Fi
    10. They believe that love and compassion can help the world through softening the hearts of tyrants. /Fi
    11. Talented for warm, sensitive language. Human terms. /Fi (5)
    12. Can be seen as quiet extraverts by friends.
    13. Care a lot of others feelings and want others returning it sometimes by giving them space for few days.
    14. They need to remember to take care of themselves.
    15. If the passion of their convictions past them through their breaking point, they can turn exhausted, unhealthy and stressed, and this could become apparent when facing conflict and criticism. (8)
    16. Their sensitivity force them to do everything they can to evade personal attacks.If the circumstances are unavoidable, they can fight back in irrational unhelpful ways. (10)
    17. To INFJs the world is a place full of inequity-but it doesn't have to be.No other personality type is better suited to create a movement to right a wrong, no matter how big or small. Advocates just need to remember that while they’re busy taking care of the world, they need to take care of themselves, too. /Fi
    https://www.16personalities.com/infj-personality




    INFj
    1. Two of EII's main distinguishing qualities are an interest in human values (2) and a developed capacity for compassion (4).
    2.The EII tries to maintain stable, well-wishing, and friendly relations with others. She listens to people, alleviates their emotional stress, reconciles arguments while remaining objective. (4)
    3. Readily helps those who turn to her for support (4). Prefers not to focus attention on her offenders and ill-wishers and accumulate ill memories.
    4. Although the EII is usually tolerant and accommodating, she won't forgive betrayal and injustice. Negatively views any sort of coercion, counters it with stubbornness and patience.
    5. Notices and uncovers human vices, but formulates her findings as general tactful statements. (11)
    6. Prefers a quiet, stable, measured rhythm of life. Dislikes crowds, loud declarations. In performing her work, the EII is conscientious and meticulous, though she may be slow in operation.
    7. Demonstrates diligence, endurance, and discipline. (3)
    8. She is able to make herself do more than what others expect of her. (15)
    9. The EII is emotionally keen and impressionable, and disapproves of insensitivity and harshness.
    10. She is unable to coerce and pressure others to do something, and dislikes showing this kind of assertiveness. However if she is pressured herself, she can deliver a sharp rebuke. (16)
    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t...ile_by_Gulenko


    INFP
    i. Idealists that can see the good in the worst.
    ii. Shy, reserved and calm but with inner passion.
    iii. High risk of feeling misunderstood, they need like minded people to feel joy and inspiration.
    iv. They are led only by the purity of their intentions not rewards nor punishments.
    v. Deep communication with others through the use of metaphors, parables and symbolism to share ideas.
    vi. We find a lot of ppl of this type to be poets, writers and actors.
    vii. Its important for them to understand themselves and their place in the world.
    viii. Have a visionary communication style that's great for creative works.
    ix. Have talent for self-expression, revealing their beauty and their secrets through metaphors and fictional characters.
    x. Great ability with learning foreign languages.
    xi. They seek their calling using their gift for communication and desire for harmony.
    xii. Focus their attention on few people or singly worthy cause to avoid running out energy and feeling overwhelmed by the bad in the world that they can't fix.
    xiii. They tend to depend on their rosy outlook.
    xiv. Can lose themselves in the quest for good and neglect the day to day demands.
    xv. Deep thought, enjoy contemplating the hypothetical and philosophical.
    xvi. Can lose touch and withdraw into "hermit mode", requiring great energy from others to bring them back to the real world.
    xvii. Luckily, like the flowers in spring, Mediator’s affection, creativity, altruism and idealism will always come back, rewarding those they love perhaps not with logic and utility, but with a world view that inspires compassion, kindness and beauty wherever they go…..etc
    https://www.16personalities.com/infp-personality

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki View Post
    The simple answer, I think, is that the two systems are looking at different things that in some cases have similar or identical names but which, in reality, only overlap to a certain, incomplete extent. Because things in one system only overlap with things in the other system to an imperfect extent, there is room for a J/P switch and many other kinds of switches to happen in different cases.
    That's very far fetched though. The 16 types as discovered by Jung / Socionics is a fundamental coherent phenomenon in humans. It's very unlikely that you have a system with almost identical concepts and descriptions that would describe some other phenomenon.

    Of course MBTI is trying to capture the same phenomenon as Jung/Socionics. They came close but made some mistakes, and they don't understand it yet. It's not easy to read Jung. Because MBTI lacks the relationships they don't have the points of reference that socionics has and cannot double check things.

    Si in MBTI is not a real psychic function. They have just made up some stuff that is aimed to "explain" the supposed conservatism /"narrowmindedness" in SJ types. (comparing with the past, memory etc.) They have probably read Jung on Si, but never understood his phenomenological approach.

    Or you can say that MBTI is talking about something else, but in that case it is just a trivial description of different people, without the actual coherent foundations in the human mind. Basically just classifying people in a brainless way, just for the sake of it, and calling it different things. But I don't think MBTI is that blind, they have certainly seen the same as Socionics/Jung, maybe not as clearly, but still.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    It's a bit silly to consider MBTI as gibberish, coming from people who have supposedly read and understood Jung's types even more so. Without a doubt Socionics doesn't equal one bit to what Jung had in mind, especially about the hyper-schematic derivatives of the socionic theory; on the other hand, MBTI's freer approach, more humanistic on many levels, is definitely more in line with the Jungian individual approach and with his idea of avoiding to categorize everyone-healthy people who need no psychological help from experts.

    If you've read Jung you'd know that the MBTI definitions of the functions are in line with the Jungian theory as much, and perhaps even more, as socionics. There's a reason for this: Jung didn't invent any model or interpersonal scheme of approaching, that socionics's ideation had to explain for with modifications to the basic theory.




    There's a reason even for the very bland approaches to MBTI that you see around, because obviously the functions are out there for you to study, as it's true that there are many simplistic descriptions of the types in socionics; the difference is that MBTI is a very famous system, and socionics is not. The amount of data produced around MBTI is multiple times bigger than in socionics, it explains why you see far more pop descriptions in MBTI.

    There's far more research and speculation in MBTI than in socionics, due to its far greater use, and this alone is a merit of its theory.

    Criticizing a theory without even knowing it is detrimental to your speculations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Everlast View Post
    and both systems describe the same thing
    they don't

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
    INFJ
    1. See the better version of ppl and treat them as such. /Fi Ne
    2. Moral Idealism (1) Fi
    3. Able to take concrete steps to achieve goals and get a long lasting positive impact. (7) Te, j.
    4. Helping others is very important for them. (1) Fi
    5. They care to get to the core of the problems. /Ne
    6. Soft-spoken but strongly opinionated achievers. /Fi,Ne
    7. Non egoistically decisive and strong willed ppl.
    8. Creativity, imagination, conviction and sensitivity to create balance.
    9. Egalitarism and karma are attractive ideas for them. Fi
    10. They believe that love and compassion can help the world through softening the hearts of tyrants. /Fi
    11. Talented for warm, sensitive language. Human terms. /Fi (5)
    12. Can be seen as quiet extraverts by friends.
    13. Care a lot of others feelings and want others returning it sometimes by giving them space for few days.
    14. They need to remember to take care of themselves.
    15. If the passion of their convictions past them through their breaking point, they can turn exhausted, unhealthy and stressed, and this could become apparent when facing conflict and criticism. (8)
    16. Their sensitivity force them to do everything they can to evade personal attacks.If the circumstances are unavoidable, they can fight back in irrational unhelpful ways. (10)
    17. To INFJs the world is a place full of inequity-but it doesn't have to be.No other personality type is better suited to create a movement to right a wrong, no matter how big or small. Advocates just need to remember that while they’re busy taking care of the world, they need to take care of themselves, too. /Fi
    https://www.16personalities.com/infj-personality




    INFj
    1. Two of EII's main distinguishing qualities are an interest in human values (2) and a developed capacity for compassion (4).
    2.The EII tries to maintain stable, well-wishing, and friendly relations with others. She listens to people, alleviates their emotional stress, reconciles arguments while remaining objective. (4)
    3. Readily helps those who turn to her for support (4). Prefers not to focus attention on her offenders and ill-wishers and accumulate ill memories.
    4. Although the EII is usually tolerant and accommodating, she won't forgive betrayal and injustice. Negatively views any sort of coercion, counters it with stubbornness and patience.
    5. Notices and uncovers human vices, but formulates her findings as general tactful statements. (11)
    6. Prefers a quiet, stable, measured rhythm of life. Dislikes crowds, loud declarations. In performing her work, the EII is conscientious and meticulous, though she may be slow in operation.
    7. Demonstrates diligence, endurance, and discipline. (3)
    8. She is able to make herself do more than what others expect of her. (15)
    9. The EII is emotionally keen and impressionable, and disapproves of insensitivity and harshness.
    10. She is unable to coerce and pressure others to do something, and dislikes showing this kind of assertiveness. However if she is pressured herself, she can deliver a sharp rebuke. (16)
    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t...ile_by_Gulenko


    INFP
    i. Idealists that can see the good in the worst.
    ii. Shy, reserved and calm but with inner passion.
    iii. High risk of feeling misunderstood, they need like minded people to feel joy and inspiration.
    iv. They are led only by the purity of their intentions not rewards nor punishments.
    v. Deep communication with others through the use of metaphors, parables and symbolism to share ideas.
    vi. We find a lot of ppl of this type to be poets, writers and actors.
    vii. Its important for them to understand themselves and their place in the world.
    viii. Have a visionary communication style that's great for creative works.
    ix. Have talent for self-expression, revealing their beauty and their secrets through metaphors and fictional characters.
    x. Great ability with learning foreign languages.
    xi. They seek their calling using their gift for communication and desire for harmony.
    xii. Focus their attention on few people or singly worthy cause to avoid running out energy and feeling overwhelmed by the bad in the world that they can't fix.
    xiii. They tend to depend on their rosy outlook.
    xiv. Can lose themselves in the quest for good and neglect the day to day demands.
    xv. Deep thought, enjoy contemplating the hypothetical and philosophical.
    xvi. Can lose touch and withdraw into "hermit mode", requiring great energy from others to bring them back to the real world.
    xvii. Luckily, like the flowers in spring, Mediator’s affection, creativity, altruism and idealism will always come back, rewarding those they love perhaps not with logic and utility, but with a world view that inspires compassion, kindness and beauty wherever they go…..etc
    https://www.16personalities.com/infp-personality
    See I don't agree what you claim is Fi or not.

    I relate to some of what the INFJ list says but more to what the INFP list says and see more Fi in that.

    In the INFJ list

    1 could also be Ni Fe

    4 could also be Fe.
    How is 5 Ne?

    How does 6 have Ne?

    How is 9 Fi. If anything is just NF, and sounds more Ni Fe to me. The karma part.

    12 is Fe.

    14 is an Fe problem.

    17 is an Fe problem also.

    And in the EII list 6 contradicts 12, 10 goes against 17


    In the INFP list.

    2, 3, 4, 7, 9, 14 and 17 are all Fi. 14 could be just F with low S in general but the rest are mainly Fi.

    8 and 10 are Ne
    And if you read gulenkos IEI, description it doesn't match up much with the INFP one.

    The main thing I don't relate to on the EII list is 7, and thats the same thing I relate to in the IEI description,


    " Poorly related to those who force him to work at an unusual and uncomfortable for him pace and rhythm. Hopes for leniency, indulgences, "smoke breaks" at work. "



    This is what solidified EII for me:
    Strats

    Most of Strats description I relate to but this was the nail in the coffin.

    " The commandment "Do not do unto others what you wouldn't wish for yourself" EII takes with exceptional seriousness ".

    I felt this way since I was young before I even knew what a personality type was, and was shocked to find out not everyone is like that. I been up and down this website complaining about that before I even read that in the description.

    Gulenko

    "For implementation she often needs detailed instructions on how to do a particular job. " this is Si mobilizing Te suggestive in a nutshell.

    But with Gulenmos descriptions I just don't feel the words as much, I don't know how to describe but when I read Strats it's like "Yes! That's true" my response is felt and visceral, Gulenko I'm like, that's factual, but I don't feel it so it doesn't feel like I relate even though it's true. Anyway most of Gulenkos IEI in also don't relate to and is not factual about myself. Saying unpleasant things with a smile, definitely not true for me.

    And I relate to the entire list of that MBTI INFP. Deep passion, misunderstood, self expression in fictional characters, rosy outlook, all that. I didn't know that was a personality type thing until I got into personality types.

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    @Lord Pixel

    INFJ correlates with Fi, ethics of relations, j element, ethics of relations and potential of possibilities, INFj the Humanist.
    INFP relates to Ni and Fe in socionics, Ni, imagination, symbolism, concepts. It lacks however the meaning of "Time". Fe is ethics of emotions, communication, expressing emotions to others, understanding others in this area such as in artistic display, etc.
    The descriptions are there for be understood as a whole, not just individual sentences. I added numbers to compare to socionics and help ppl to read and comprehend because it seems to me that sometimes some have problems to understand the main ideas of texts, separate it by bullets may help.

    I don't have time now, I'll respond to the rest later.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    The thing is that even though the types are basically the same, and no J/P switch, MBTI has serious problems correctly distinguishing the types. And that's because of the internal problems in MBTI.

    So I've heard that it's some kind of a challenge in MBTI to separate INFJ from INFP, and people write about this. And that's understandable, knowing what MBTI looks like. But from a Socionics perspective these are easy to tell apart. There is no such problem. It's usually not a very big problem to tell quasi-identicals apart. Different quadras, clearly different base functions and all that.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy
    INFJ correlates with Fi, ethics of relations, j element, ethics of relations and potential of possibilities, INFj the Humanist.
    INFP relates to Ni and Fe in socionics, Ni, imagination, symbolism, concepts.
    You're basing this on the profiles listed on one website. Other websites, particularly those that examine an MBTI type's cognitive function use, in many cases paint a markedly different picture.

    Also, it's rather telling that you're saying that INFJ correlates with possibilities (which the MBTI explicitly ascribes to Ne, an INFJ's fifth rather than first or second function) and INFP with symbolism (which the MBTI explicitly ascribes to Ni, a much lower function in the INFP's function stack). I would recommend that you do more research on the MBTI before you start proposing that it's related to Socionics in a particular fashion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki View Post
    You're basing this on the profiles listed on one website. Other websites, particularly those that examine an MBTI type's cognitive function use, in many cases paint a markedly different picture.

    Also, it's rather telling that you're saying that INFJ correlates with possibilities (which the MBTI explicitly ascribes to Ne, an INFJ's fifth rather than first or second function) and INFP with symbolism (which the MBTI explicitly ascribes to Ni, a much lower function in the INFP's function stack). I would recommend that you do more research on the MBTI before you start proposing that it's related to Socionics in a particular fashion.
    I've studied extensively both systems. The one I posted is probably the most popular and extended description online for mbti model. I also posted the IEs and functions in tables for all the types in both systems in a post above https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...=1#post1385419 Such tables were on spoiler but since some of you seem to not read and just post indiscriminately, I just took them off from it.

    That means, I know INFJ don't have Ne and Fi as dominant and auxiliary functions in MBTI. I was merely making the annotation for socionics equivalency. I recommend to study socionics model, functions and descriptions and Jung to get a deeper understanding of the model.

    Finally, is hard to see a a clear differentiation for both INFx and INTx in MBTI official site. But is rather clear to see the differences between ISxx types, in which case, ISTP=ISTp, ISFP=ISFp, ISTJ=ISTj.

    That means there's really no reason for saying that there must be done a J/P switch. INFx and INTx could be both, p or j in socionics. It could be switched or not, the cases for the switches would be less than the cases than not. The correct thing would be saying to INxx that they would need to do further exploration in Socionics to find their type and that's all. The switch thing was just created to try to give a rather generic answer to model differences.


    Then, some other sites promote their own descriptions of functions and types for mbti. There's no end for them all. Introverts could type depending on the "mbti" source they are reading. A correct generic response to all Introverts is to say that they should seek their type in socionics, because depending on the source they are coming from, they could be either p or j in socionics. However, that doesn't give room at all to say that there should be done a switch indistinctively.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy
    I recommend to study socionics model, functions and descriptions and Jung to get a deeper understanding of the model.
    I have done so, and I disagree with what you were previously saying about INFPs and INFJs and their types in Socionics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
    INFx and INTx could be both, p or j in socionics. It could be switched or not [...]
    With this I agree. What I took issue with was you seeking to support the position that my MBTI type, INFJ, is Socionics Fi-Ne when it's not. At most, some INFJs are Fi-Ne in Socionics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki View Post
    I have done so, and I disagree with what you were previously saying about INFPs and INFJs and their types in Socionics.

    With this I agree. What I took issue with was you seeking to support the position that my MBTI type, INFJ, is Socionics Fi-Ne when it's not. At most, some INFJs are Fi-Ne in Socionics.
    The description I posted from 16 personalities correlates with Fi Ne in socionics. But don't worry, I'm not trying to battle type you, I actually don't care what ppl type themselves as, I just disagree when ppl says there's a switch because there's no generic switch at all, there's no legit reason in theory or descriptions for ppl to support it, but some still. The correct generic answer would be INxx could be j or p. Though, 16 personalities.com are likely the same type.

    MBTI: INFx, INTx, rather no switch for ISxx.
    16 personalities: no switch by descriptions.

    Since models and introverted elements/functions from MBTI and Socionics doesn't match in most cases, there's no equivalence to justify doing a switch.

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    Well it's a very confusing situation to say the least. MBTI seems to follow Jung's functions, (except for Si, where they are totally off). But even when the functions are understood correctly they don't always assign them to the right types.

    On top of that the real Si function is missing from the system. One can see traces of it in the descriptions. (because of course they have observed real people).

    What to do?

    Learn typology by socionics and Jung, and observing real people and relationships. Then when the phenomenon of the 16 types is known, we can bury MBTI and let is rest in peace.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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