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Thread: Identifying ESIs???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarnished View Post
    Fi lead bla bla bla too much about what they feel if they think they can share their thought and feeling with you, and since ESI is also a negative type.... It drained me pretty fast. And woman like to share their feeling more than man alot...
    Men are this way because of society's oppressive influence, not by nature. Sharing your thoughts and feelings is a healthy necessity involved in connecting with humans, and we are social creatures. Fi Lead or not, sharing thoughts/feelings is a normal part of life when a person is healthy. Without that, you're estranged from society/relationships with others.

    Btw, being a negativist isn't the same as being pessimistic.


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    Tbh, I think people are failing to determine which information has higher potency/dependability (and thus priority), and then organize information according to this.

    People more than likely don't want to hear “Refer to the definition of each IE and their roles within each position as explained by (Model A/G/whatever), and then listen/get to know and understand others while examining the mental process behind their actions, and not just observing their actions only.” That is ultimately the best approach, though. The entire theory is already not scientific in the first place, why go around basing your entire view of everyone upon parts of the theory that are less likely to be accurate than other parts you could be using instead? (I'd say why base your worldview upon any theory/pseudoscience at all, but most people won't listen to that anyway.)


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    Some can be emotional, some express a lot of what’s going on around them in a slight dissatisfaction or tone of, some are firm others extremely firm in what they want
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    Some can be emotional, some express a lot of what’s going on around them in a slight dissatisfaction or tone of, some are firm others extremely firm in what they want
    I have had the same experience lol

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    Just act like a douchebag and see who punches you in the face. Blam, identified. If they go for the groin it's a sign of lower D Fi.

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    May look like an LSI, but -Te. Metaphor's Avatar
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    Well, simple. Just ask their opinions about society and you'd eventually understand.
    Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel: "The history of the world is none other than the progress of the consciousness of freedom."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarnished View Post
    Can be workaholic like their dual if they really love doing something, but not effective in any sense.
    Lol, ouch

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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderwoman View Post
    Lol, ouch
    I just talk about Te relate activities . ESI did good with writing or people-related problems or something artistic though

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarnished View Post
    I just talk about Te relate activities . ESI did good with writing or people-related problems or something artistic though
    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarnished View Post
    I just talk about Te relate activities . ESI did good with writing or people-related problems or something artistic though
    I do see your point, especially in the ESI-ILI interactional context. when i worked for an ILI last semester, i wanted to think carefully about how to respond/deal with every situation, and if he'd authorized me to do so, i essentially would've fallen months behind in the work we needed to get done. he had to make a ruling so that we could rise above the individual case

    as i wrote abt in the other thread i gave him some support on personalizing his messages to the students, or just general encouragement of what he was doing.

    it's an interesting relation b/c i guess as is typical in activity, the relship is so easy to start and you FEEL like you understand the person remarkably well quite quickly; then they go full Ni and I think holy shit, i could never in my life reproduce/produce the kind of ideas they come up with, and talk about them so clearly. i felt betrayed by my initial impressions, like they werent as reliable as i'd thought.

    I'm still really relieved that i handled well my final meeting with him as part of my teaching assistantship for him, and grateful to those here who helped me achieve a good outcome.

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    Oh ESIs, the first thing you may notice about ESIs is the prim Fe-ignoring expression on their face. When they are disgusted by your behavior they will probably tell you about it. That's not to say they aren't diplomatic, but I have interacted with ESIs in my life that weren't afraid to bring the conversation to a screeching halt to address something someone did or said that they didn't like.
    Bound upon me, rush upon me, I will overcome you by enduring your onset: whatever strikes against that which is firm and unconquerable merely injures itself by its own violence. Wherefore, seek some soft and yielding object to pierce with your darts.

    -Seneca

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toro View Post
    Oh ESIs, the first thing you may notice about ESIs is the prim Fe-ignoring expression on their face. When they are disgusted by your behavior they will probably tell you about it. That's not to say they aren't diplomatic, but I have interacted with ESIs in my life that weren't afraid to bring the conversation to a screeching halt to address something someone did or said that they didn't like.
    Yeah, this is accurate.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarnished View Post
    Fi lead bla bla bla too much about what they feel if they think they can share their thought and feeling with you, and since ESI is also a negative type.... It drained me pretty fast. And woman like to share their feeling more than man alot...
    ESI pass judgments, not feelings. EIIs talk about feelings, but I think it's one of the strategies for them to close in on relationships. T types use feelings just for feeling's sake; F types use "feelings" in much more productive and strategic ways. it's more interesting to see them as chess moves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vis View Post
    ESI pass judgments, not feelings.
    Are you saying this in the sense of controlling the emotional atmosphere? Or are you talking about them telling someone how they feel?

    Every type talks about how they feel sometimes, if that's what you mean...and that is part of letting others in, becoming vulnerable to them...which is a requirement for any intimacy at all. It's psychology territory, not typology territory.


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    I think that Vis means it more in the sense of ESIs straight up telling people when they do something wrong, if I'm correct, @Vis?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vis View Post
    ESI pass judgments, not feelings.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Lunacik View Post
    Are you saying this in the sense of controlling the emotional atmosphere? Or are you talking about them telling someone how they feel?

    Every type talks about how they feel sometimes, if that's what you mean...and that is part of letting others in, becoming vulnerable to them...which is a requirement for any intimacy at all. It's psychology territory, not typology territory.
    From what I have experienced, ESIs will talk to me about something that they see as being morally reprehensible, and will, sometimes, wait for the most opportune time to "strike a blow" against their offender, almost always hitting them in a very vulnerable spot.

    Here's the weird thing from my subjective experience: I don't mind it when they do this. I often think it's funny when directed at other people, and I take it seriously when directed at me, but in no case does it make me want to break relations with ESIs.

    On the other hand, I have been on the receiving end of an ESE's implications that I've been socially misbehaving, and it makes me want to erase that person from the face of the earth.

    Fi vs Fe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    From what I have experienced, ESIs will talk to me about something that they see as being morally reprehensible, and will, sometimes, wait for the most opportune time to "strike a blow" against their offender, almost always hitting them in a very vulnerable spot.
    ...that just sounds passive-aggressive, juvenile, and unsympathetic. I personally am not that way.

    How does that directly relate to the base descriptions of Fi, too? How does that connect with what Fi as an Information Metabolism Element is?

    On the other hand, I have been on the receiving end of an ESE's implications that I've been socially misbehaving, and it makes me want to erase that person from the face of the earth.

    Fi vs Fe.
    LOL. Yeah, I've had some fights over that one before. Especially whenever it consisted of the bandwagon bullshit.
    Them: "Everyone thinks you were rude."
    Me: "I don't care what they think. Just because they think that doesn't make it true." In that situation, I was trying to get a couple of people that were involved to listen to my side and hear me out, about how things weren't as they appeared. It looked like I was doing X, but when Y is factored in, you realize it was a misunderstanding and a communication failure (on both sides). They acted as though I was just being carelessly rude or whatever, when I wasn't.
    Yeah...I'm...still fucking salty that no one heard me out in that one. Whatever.

    But yeah, people know I'm proudly against the grain and give no fucks about Fe dynamics. In most cases, people don't tend to even try.

    Anyway...
    I don't see how what you're saying is even answering my question. Maybe I'm being N blind and missing some sort of connection here, in which case I am open-minded to an explanation.

    IDK, this entire...statement, of Fi/Fe passing feelings/judgment, is very convoluted in my eyes. It's like...how are "judgments" being defined? Is it not "passing judgment" to say "you're socially misbehaving" as well? Is the Fi example you gave not expressing how they feel about the actions, thus "passing feelings" in that sense?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Lunacik View Post
    ...that just sounds passive-aggressive, juvenile, and unsympathetic. I personally am not that way.
    At least, not intentionally. I never wait for a "most vulnerable moment" in anything, at all, period. That's too vindictive/ill-intentioned. I find that in and of itself to be morally fucked up. I don't even hawk-eye vulnerabilities like that in the first place, much less wait to pounce on them. What the fuck comes from that? Me tainting my character, at most. The end result/outcome: congrats, I've purposely hurt someone at the expense of being a douchebag? Which makes me reprehensible myself, if that's how I am. It's just hypocritical.

    EDIT:
    Hmm, that reminds me of


    IDK, I'm not a fan of this topic. I'm talking too much before the terms are defined, thus trying to cover this definition's angle, that definition's angle, and etc all at the same time, and I'm kind of just at a point of wanting to say fuck it.
    Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 02-05-2022 at 03:58 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    I think that Vis means it more in the sense of ESIs straight up telling people when they do something wrong, if I'm correct, @Vis?
    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Lunacik View Post
    Are you saying this in the sense of controlling the emotional atmosphere? Or are you talking about them telling someone how they feel?

    Every type talks about how they feel sometimes, if that's what you mean...and that is part of letting others in, becoming vulnerable to them...which is a requirement for any intimacy at all. It's psychology territory, not typology territory.
    To you you are talking about how you feel. To my fragile, all-over-the-place childlike Fi you are passing moral judgments and it is somewhat scary and controlling. Whether being judgmental or vulnerable, to you it's an effective tool to adjust emotional distance with people (in a subconscious way. I know you are not doing this with the intention of manipulation), while I cannot use it effectively. I don't know if you have noticed that your Fi in these comments comes in rather aggressively and I'm mostly being defensive?

    Anyways my previous comments was trying to say F types are not the touchy feely stereotype, rather they are using emotions in a more productive way than T types. I did not mean that you are judgmental (even though, you kinda are, being a judger and all

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    I think that Vis means it more in the sense of ESIs straight up telling people when they do something wrong, if I'm correct, @Vis?
    O.
    I somehow missed this post.
    Damn, now I'm glad I didn't just waltz up in here and mock Vis's description, then. >_>

    Quote Originally Posted by Vis View Post
    To you you are talking about how you feel. To my fragile, all-over-the-place childlike Fi you are passing moral judgments and it is somewhat scary and controlling. Whether being judgmental or vulnerable, to you it's an effective tool to adjust emotional distance with people (in a subconscious way. I know you are not doing this with the intention of manipulation), while I cannot use it effectively. I don't know if you have noticed that your Fi in these comments comes in rather aggressively and I'm mostly being defensive?

    Anyways my previous comments was trying to say F types are not the touchy feely stereotype, rather they are using emotions in a more productive way than T types. I did not mean that you are judgmental (even though, you kinda are, being a judger and all
    Ok, yeah, I agree with all of that then. I do also see how it came off aggressively...though I don't currently know why all of that happened, and I have some introspection to do from this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vis
    to you it's an effective tool to adjust emotional distance with people (in a subconscious way. I know you are not doing this with the intention of manipulation)
    Hmm....I guess, from my perspective, I'm just being straightforward and honest with people. I guess, when I think about it though, it does convey distance? Where people stand as far as friend or foe goes? Although it's also an opportunity for correction and changing where they stand, too, at times...hmm, IDK. I feel like there's a lot to be uncovered here that I'm not fully seeing.

    Thanks, I guess I have some stuff to think about now.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Lunacik View Post
    At least, not intentionally. I never wait for a "most vulnerable moment" in anything, at all, period. That's too vindictive/ill-intentioned. I find that in and of itself to be morally fucked up. I don't even hawk-eye vulnerabilities like that in the first place, much less wait to pounce on them. What the fuck comes from that? Me tainting my character, at most. The end result/outcome: congrats, I've purposely hurt someone at the expense of being a douchebag? Which makes me reprehensible myself, if that's how I am. It's just hypocritical.
    You don't, healthy ESIs don't, but unhealthy ones do. To flog the dead horse again, the guy I dated did, and it was one of the main reasons for me to break up with him. He insisted on it that as a couple we should trust each other, so if I wanted to lend him money, in order for him to pay back the loan he had taken with his best friend a while ago. I politely explained to him for five times that as a student myself I don't have any income et cetera et cetera. At the third time that he insisted on me lending him money he said that he would "eat a pizza in my honour, if I gave him the money", as I like Italian pizzas. This would, however, mean that the pizza would be paid out from the very money I were to lend him.

    Because explaining why I wouldn't lend him the money this early in a relationship didn't work the previous two times, I instead tried to laugh and play dumb as a diversion, because I didn't want to tell him "No." again. He took it personally and interpreted it as me laughing him out, even though I told him that wasn't the case. As a consequence he stood me up for our date that evening, messaging me later that this was for me being rude to him, but that he nonetheless does love me. Although I had been waiting for him all evening, I didn't get mad at him for that, but he did lose my trust that night.

    On the other hand, I did get angry for pressuring me to pay for his room a while later. I eventually offered to pay it for him directly, if he told me to what organization I should make the deposit. He insisted to my frustration on me forking the money over to him instead. Given how he had stood me up last time for our date, I scolded him for being a liar and that he should work for his money instead. We didn't speak for a week, after which I apologized profoundly to him. He told me: "Let it go, after you disrespected me." and I said: "I understand and respect your decision."

    I didn't hear anything from him, until a month later. He acted as if nothing had happened, and I figured he wanted to get back together without having to lose face for apologizing. Once again I apologized for scolding him, and I expressed that I was happy that we were on speaking terms again. He still seemed a bit stand-offish and didn't say much, but I did this off on our trust in each other having to be build up again. A few days later we were talking properly again and we wished each other a good night. Only for him to have vanished the following morning. I tried contacting him, but he acted as if he had changed phone numbers and that I was thus talking to someone else. I recognized it was him, however, because of his characteristic way of speaking, even though he tried to mask it.
    Last edited by Armitage; 02-05-2022 at 07:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    You don't, healthy ESIs don't, but unhealthy ones do. To flog the dead horse again, the guy I dated did, and it was one of the main reasons for me to break up with him. He insisted on it that as a couple we should trust each other, so if I wanted to lend him money, in order for him to pay back the loan he had taken with his best friend a while ago. I politely explained to him for five times that as a student myself I don't have any income et cetera et cetera. At the third time that he insisted on me lending him money

    he said that he would "eat a pizza in my honour, if I gave him the money",

    as I like Italian pizzas. This would, however, mean that the pizza would be paid out from the very money I were to lend him.

    Because explaining why I wouldn't lend him the money this early in a relationship didn't work the previous two times, I instead tried to laugh and play dumb as a diversion, because I didn't want to tell him "No." again. He took it personally and interpreted it as me laughing him out, even though I told him that wasn't the case. As a consequence he stood me up for our date that evening, messaging me later that this was for me being rude to him, but that he nonetheless does love me. Although I had been waiting for him all evening, I didn't get mad at him for that, but he did lose my trust that night.

    On the other hand, I did get angry for pressuring me to pay for his room a while later. I eventually offered to pay it for him directly, if he told me to what organization I should make the deposit. He insisted to my frustration on me forking the money over to him instead. Given how he had stood me up last time for our date, I scolded him for being a liar and that he should work for his money instead. We didn't speak for a week, after which I apologized profoundly to him. He told me: "Let it go, after you disrespected me." and I said: "I understand and respect your decision."

    I didn't hear anything from him, until a month later. He acted as if nothing had happened, and I figured he wanted to get back together without having to lose face for apologizing. Once again I apologized for scolding him, and I expressed that I was happy that we were on speaking terms again. He still seemed a bit stand-offish and didn't say much, but I did this off on our trust in each other having to be build up again. A few days later we were talking properly again and we wished each other a good night. Only for him to have vanished the following morning. I tried contacting him, but he acted as if he had changed phone numbers and that I was thus talking to someone else. I recognized it was him, however, because of his characteristic way of speaking, even though he tried to mask it.
    @Armitage, are you sure this guy is an ESI? The bolded part seems so SLE to me. (Honor >> Contracts.) It's like he's someone who doesn't even value Te, not like someone (an ESI) who merely isn't good at it but who nevertheless values it.

    Plus, there's the constant pressure. "Give me money." And the regular disappearances, only to reappear as if nothing ever happened.

    SLE, maybe?

    Here's something that might help you tell the difference. When I'm around SLE's, I feel like I can help these guys. (Benefactor.) When I'm around ESI Duals, I feel like these guys are independent and are helping me with a lot of things that I'm not great at doing, or feeling.

    Really, if someone told me that they would do something "in my honor", I would instantly know they were not in my quadra.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-05-2022 at 07:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    You don't, healthy ESIs don't, but unhealthy ones do. To flog the dead horse again, the guy I dated did, and it was one of the main reasons for me to break up with him. He insisted on it that as a couple we should trust each other, so if I wanted to lend him money, in order for him to pay back the loan he had taken with his best friend a while ago. I politely explained to him for five times that as a student myself I don't have any income et cetera et cetera. At the third time that he insisted on me lending him money he said that he would "eat a pizza in my honour, if I gave him the money", as I like Italian pizzas. This would, however, mean that the pizza would be paid out from the very money I were to lend him.

    Because explaining why I wouldn't lend him the money this early in a relationship didn't work the previous two times, I instead tried to laugh and play dumb as a diversion, because I didn't want to tell him "No." again. He took it personally and interpreted it as me laughing him out, even though I told him that wasn't the case. As a consequence he stood me up for our date that evening, messaging me later that this was for me being rude to him, but that he nonetheless does love me. Although I had been waiting for him all evening, I didn't get mad at him for that, but he did lose my trust that night.

    On the other hand, I did get angry for pressuring me to pay for his room a while later. I eventually offered to pay it for him directly, if he told me to what organization I should make the deposit. He insisted to my frustration on me forking the money over to him instead. Given how he had stood me up last time for our date, I scolded him for being a liar and that he should work for his money instead. We didn't speak for a week, after which I apologized profoundly to him. He told me: "Let it go, after you disrespected me." and I said: "I understand and respect your decision."

    I didn't hear anything from him, until a month later. He acted as if nothing had happened, and I figured he wanted to get back together without having to lose face for apologizing. Once again I apologized for scolding him, and I expressed that I was happy that we were on speaking terms again. He still seemed a bit stand-offish and didn't say much, but I did this off on our trust in each other having to be build up again. A few days later we were talking properly again and we wished each other a good night. Only for him to have vanished the following morning. I tried contacting him, but he acted as if he had changed phone numbers and that I was thus talking to someone else. I recognized it was him, however, because of his characteristic way of speaking, even though he tried to mask it.
    Weird dude...I have to agree with Adam, doesn't sound ESI. My reasons, though, are that...we are described at length as being blunt as hell, direct, and straightforward when there is a problem. You describe things that...Fi base types usually just don't care about. Stuff like "not losing face," when this conflicts with authenticity. Acting like nothing happened...really not ESI style unless being professional in a work environment or something. ESIs are all about the psychological distance and emotional sincerity. If there's a problem, we want to bluntly address it and move itout of the way, stop it from interfering with the relationship. If we decide things arent salvageable, we tend to directly tell the person they're morally reprehensible or whatever in some way. This guy sounds like a low Fe, but still valuing Fe, type of some kind...

    Also, btw, he sounds sus. Probably a manipulative user.


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    Definitely manipulative and definitely suspect, indeed. I thought he was a really, really, really unhealthy ESI, whereas all my other experiences with ESIs have been nice and fun. I thought him an ESI given his desire to make it into the fashion industry, his focus on finding a long-term relationship instead of a typical SLE's next hook-up, and the whole battery of questions he subjected me to regarding faithfulness and everything. He also was blunt with me on several occassions. However, he did try to guilt-trip me, which I don't think is typical for Fi-users. During the pizza incident he complained to me that I was treating him like a child for wanting to discuss his financial problems before forking him any money and that we were both adults. I had proposed discussing it during our date that night, to which he had agreed. We were to catch up after his workshift in the horeca had ended, but then he never came. I would have expected an Fi-user to do the loyal thing to actually come, or straight up tell me that he wouldn't come. Instead he committed to it, but did not follow through, in order to pain me for "being rude to him". That sure feels more Fe of him.

    Also, I never knew that SLEs are so concerned about honour, I thought they were more focused on reputation, the reputation of being a tough guy/gal.

    Both the father and brother of a LSE friend of mine are SLE. The brother is a chill dude, typically LSE reckless, but with a good heart when I see him around his little step-brothers. He's nice to talk to, yet directionless outside of the personal garage Gym his friends and him set up. The last time I visited he actually went showing off his muscles to me.
    His father jokingly called him a shrimp, though, because his old man is a buff police officer. I rather stay away from him, as he's a SLE-Se who is constantly power-gaming and making provocative jokes that catch me aback. He even forced me to call him by his first name, instead of mr X. He wants to be perceived as fun, but at the same time he orders everyone around, to the frustration of my LSE friend who says that he is always forced to clean up his father's slack.
    On the positive side, my friend told me that his brother and father enjoy my presence, which I was positively surprised about, especially in regard to his father. I namely have been staying away from his home for a while now. I had invited my LSE friend over for card games with our other high-school friends at my place, but unlike normally this time he could not stay for dinner, because we were still moving furniture out of my Grandpa's rental home with the family and had thus nothing prepared for dinner that night. He also hadn't announced beforehand that he planned on staying for dinner, but I do understand that he had counted on it, because normally he is always welcome.
    My friend completely understood the situation I was in. His father on the other hand went scolding me through my friend's telephone. According to this father I was a bad host, should be ashamed of myself, how this was rude of me, and how I was ungrateful for the times I had eaten at their place. I never intended to eat at their place, but was always asked by them to stay. I tend to avoid overstaying anyone's hospitality, so I always went home for dinner, unless specifically invited to stay.

    My mathematics uncle is also a SLE, but a SLE-Ti. He always enjoyed our debates. Generally he would take totally provocative stances like advocating for a NEXIT and throwing all migrants out, while I would plea for moderation and sensibility. He loved sparring that way, but also tried to cheat in order to win. Such as showing me a graph of how the value of the pound had increased after BREXIT, but even before beginning my statistics master I was clever enough to suspect foul play. I asked if I could take the tablet to see the graph, to which he agreed. Then I zoomed out, and saw how just before BREXIT the pound had plummeted and that the "increase" my uncle had zoomed in on was merely slight natural variation.
    My uncle proved a pain in everyone's ass during the distribution of my Grandpa's inheritance, because out of spite he first disagreed with everything my father ( LSE-Si ) proposed. My Grandpa was wise enough to appoint my father to distribute the inheritance, but my uncle argued with my Grandpa about this decision even on my Grandpa's sickbed. My uncle has always felt disadvantaged, even though he demanded the most attention of all three. He also cannot stand my aunt ( ESE ) and would sell her short for sure.

    My cousin on my mother's side is also a SLE. After my aunt ( SEE ) divorced my former uncle ( LSI-Ti ) during our childhood, I've lost contact with my cousin, but we neither had much in common anyway. I tried helping and motivating him back when we both were in high-school, but he dropped out regardless.
    Last edited by Armitage; 02-05-2022 at 10:03 PM.

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    Armitage, some SLEs can be extremely honorable, and true Gentlemen. On the other hand, some SLEs feel that if they can take something that you have, then it belongs to them.

    These are just things I've seen in some guys of this type, but not in the same guys, for that matter.

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    Interestingly, when I was seeing the guy I later typed as ILE, I thought, using MBTI at the time, that he might be an INFP.

    In socionics terms, he turned out to be the supervisee of the type I had incorrectly pegged him as: EII supervises ILE.

    The intertype relation between you and the guy you were seeing isn't the same as in my case (kindred-->conflicting, in my situation; dual-->beneficiary, in yours) but I do notice a commonality between the previously hypothesized type and what may be the more accurate one: for ESI supervises SLE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    Definitely manipulative and definitely suspect, indeed. I thought he was a really, really, really unhealthy ESI, whereas all my other experiences with ESIs have been nice and fun. I thought him an ESI given his desire to make it into the fashion industry, his focus on finding a long-term relationship instead of a typical SLE's next hook-up, and the whole battery of questions he subjected me to regarding faithfulness and everything. He also was blunt with me on several occassions. However, he did try to guilt-trip me, which I don't think is typical for Fi-users.
    Yeah, guilt-tripping just sounds to me like it would take a lot of... effort and energy? More than I could withstand / exert for very long.

    It does also sound potentially more Fe-valuing, for I think my LSI ex also did something like that; however I lack a deep theoretical understanding of Fe to be able to explain why.

    I like to think I could get up the courage to be more direct, "Why did you say/do that? It hurt me", which it would already take a lot of energy to build up to saying, I would think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    On the positive side, my friend told me that his brother and father enjoy my presence, which I was positively surprised about, especially in regard to his father. I namely have been staying away from his home for a while now. I had invited my LSE friend over for card games with our other high-school friends at my place, but unlike normally this time he could not stay for dinner, because we were still moving furniture out of my Grandpa's rental home with the family and had thus nothing prepared for dinner that night. He also hadn't announced beforehand that he planned on staying for dinner, but I do understand that he had counted on it, because normally he is always welcome.
    My friend completely understood the situation I was in. His father on the other hand went scolding me through my friend's telephone. According to this father I was a bad host, should be ashamed of myself, how this was rude of me, and how I was ungrateful for the times I had eaten at their place. I never intended to eat at their place, but was always asked by them to stay. I tend to avoid overstaying anyone's hospitality, so I always went home for dinner, unless specifically invited to stay.
    My goodness... hm, vulnerable Fi interacting with suggestive Fi seems like it could get difficult. I think I've seen some of that in my LIE dad's relations with an SLE guy. The SLE currently isn't speaking to my dad... seems a bit melodramatic to me. I haven't thought about the whole incident very much so am hesitant to go into much more about it here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    My mathematics uncle is also a SLE, but a SLE-Ti. He always enjoyed our debates. Generally he would take totally provocative stances like advocating for a NEXIT and throwing all migrants out, while I would plea for moderation and sensibility. He loved sparring that way, but also tried to cheat in order to win. Such as showing me a graph of how the value of the pound had increased after BREXIT, but even before beginning my statistics master I was clever enough to suspect foul play. I asked if I could take the tablet to see the graph, to which he agreed. Then I zoomed out, and saw how just before BREXIT the pound had plummeted and that the "increase" my uncle had zoomed in on was merely slight natural variation.
    :x creative Ni meets suggestive Ni?

    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    My cousin on my mother's side is also a SLE. After my aunt ( SEE ) divorced my former uncle ( LSI-Ti ) during our childhood, I've lost contact with my cousin, but we neither had much in common anyway. I tried helping and motivating him back when we both were in high-school, but he dropped out regardless.
    Wow... how honorable, in the most positive sense possible, of you to help and motivate him back then, at such a tender/vulnerable age/life stage... that to me is honorable.

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    Guilt tripping is more Fe in my mind due to Fe being the one controlling emotional atmosphere. Fi keeps emotions to the self more, as in, not trying to control what other people are feeling. Jung described it in that way as well. Fe is not about invoking positive atmosphere only, it has an unhealthy flip side. This dude tried to control what was happening by controlling the emotional states in an unhealthy way, rather than bluntly addressing shit.

    @Armitage @Adam Strange @wonderwoman
    Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 02-06-2022 at 12:38 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Armitage, some SLEs can be extremely honorable, and true Gentlemen.
    I have yet to meet one.

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    I have mulled it over and read some more information about SLEs and LSIs and agree that he was a SLE-Se, instead of a very, very unhealthy ESI like I first thought. It explains his vindictive behaviour, him claiming my resources as his own, and the overall uncomfortable feeling I experienced with him pressuring me, just like what I feel around the SLE-Se dad of my high-school friend. When I first encountered him I had discounted the possibility of him being an SLE, because he was looking for a serious relationship, instead of an uncommitted hook-up.
    Him being an SLE-Se also explains his terse response to my heartfelt apologies, whereas actual ESIs would have engaged emotionally by reprimanding me for my bad behaviour or forgiving me, instead of merely stating that they missed respect from me. And they sure as hell wouldn't play along, just to stand me up for a second time, in order to get back at me.

    It seems that I was projecting my desire for meeting a gay ESI interested into me. He also lacked that fairchild-feeling that the previous ESIs I dated radiated, nor the tacit wishing well-vibe of my ESI friends. Instead he exuded forcefulness and forcefulness alone. It seems that my ILI, LSI, and other friends were totally right to warn me against him, and that I indeed dodged a bullet after all.

    It feels like a weight has dropped from my shoulders now that I understand what went wrong, and that it wasn't really my fault, nor that I could have reasonably averted it. It should have been a telltale sign to me that his behaviour was so alien to me, and that he thus couldn't possibly be my dual. It generally took me a month or two of reflecting on his behaviour to even make sense of it, so incomprehensably vengeanceful he acted from my perspective.

    Thanks for your advice, guys! It has helped me tremendously!

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    Yes, every asshole with frat boy antics who only looks for hookups and has no personal ethics is of course an SLE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    I have yet to meet one.
    Well, they exist. A friend of mine is one. He’s ex-Air Force and he’s a fencer and volunteers his time to help kids and he tells hilarious stories.

    I know another who is unassuming and competent and maintains a satellite observation station and is quietly in love with a female IEI physicist who won’t give him the time of day because she has a PhD and he doesn’t.

    I know a third guy who is one of the most hard-working guys I know. He lost his wife to cancer and is raising their daughter alone. In the evening, he sometimes plays in a band.

    All of these guys are honorable and are true Gentlemen, while still being the definition of SLEs.

    It’s easy to let the caricatures of our types lead us to a distorted image of ourselves. @Subteigh just posted a link to a website selling T-shirts with the slogan “I am ENTJ. Destroyer of Worlds.” And while I design weapons and half the CEOs in America are LIE and the corporations they run are sociopathic, and I’m convinced that the world’s Finance industry is an invention of LIEs, for which we have much to answer, still, I’m nice to dogs and to little children.

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    I used to help out at a school and sat in on some RE lessons. I think the male teacher was SLE. He was beloved by the pupils and he cried when he had to leave to relocate (because of his wife’s job). His nickname was Superman..he kinda looked like Christopher Reeves (also SLE).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    I have mulled it over and read some more information about SLEs and LSIs and agree that he was a SLE-Se, instead of a very, very unhealthy ESI like I first thought. It explains his vindictive behaviour, him claiming my resources as his own, and the overall uncomfortable feeling I experienced with him pressuring me, just like what I feel around the SLE-Se dad of my high-school friend. When I first encountered him I had discounted the possibility of him being an SLE, because he was looking for a serious relationship, instead of an uncommitted hook-up.
    Him being an SLE-Se also explains his terse response to my heartfelt apologies, whereas actual ESIs would have engaged emotionally by reprimanding me for my bad behaviour or forgiving me, instead of merely stating that they missed respect from me. And they sure as hell wouldn't play along, just to stand me up for a second time, in order to get back at me.

    It seems that I was projecting my desire for meeting a gay ESI interested into me. He also lacked that fairchild-feeling that the previous ESIs I dated radiated, nor the tacit wishing well-vibe of my ESI friends. Instead he exuded forcefulness and forcefulness alone. It seems that my ILI, LSI, and other friends were totally right to warn me against him, and that I indeed dodged a bullet after all.

    It feels like a weight has dropped from my shoulders now that I understand what went wrong, and that it wasn't really my fault, nor that I could have reasonably averted it. It should have been a telltale sign to me that his behaviour was so alien to me, and that he thus couldn't possibly be my dual. It generally took me a month or two of reflecting on his behaviour to even make sense of it, so incomprehensably vengeanceful he acted from my perspective.

    Thanks for your advice, guys! It has helped me tremendously!
    Dating is hard. An IEI would know exactly how to deal with him. An LIE, not so much.

    I dated an IEI-Fe for over a year and got nowhere. She needed someone who was much stronger than I am to breach those walls.

    Keep trying, @Armitage. When the right person comes along, everything will be easy.

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    LIE Fi, even when it's awful, I can tolerate it as long as they're willing to improve or listen. A lot of times, they simply don't know any better...don't understand why or how something is fucked up. Togetherness becomes a process of purification IME. Drawing out the inner sensitive child they buried long ago. It's probably experienced by LIE as a healing process.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Northstar View Post
    Yes, every asshole with frat boy antics who only looks for hookups and has no personal ethics is of course an SLE.
    That's not what I'm saying, what I do am saying is that the ones in my social circle don't portray themselves as the gentlemen of yore. Also, in my above posts I mentioned that I get along very well with the SLE-Se brother of one of my high-school friends. He's a good guy and I like hanging out with him, I just have a hard time imagining him practising classical chivalry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northstar View Post
    Yes, every asshole with frat boy antics who only looks for hookups and has no personal ethics is of course an SLE.
    You know, for someone who doesn't do feelings, you sure are reactive and caught up in them pretty often. That's what suppressing them does, though...it amplifies them and makes them more out of control (often while blinding you to them while everyone else can see them still). Your emotions are preventing you from seeing the relevant details (unrelated to your mentioned stereotypes) that are causing others to type them as SLE, as well as the fact that they're being seen as an unhealthy version of SLE and not an average one. It might seem counterintuitive, but being more accepting of feelings allows you to be more objective/rational.


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    Beta Fe means brotherhood and by your side no matter what you do. This can be interpreted as true devotion or enabling. LIE is SLE's benefactor and it's a relation full of misunderstandings. ESI is SLE's supervisor and it's a relation full of accusations

    I'm semi-dual with SLE so it's less complicated. I find them to be good company when I'm in high Se mode; when I'm low Se they can be pushy (less diplomatic compared to SEEs in my view). They are very focused on winning/losing (instead of caring about Fi reputations/whether others see them as the best like SEE). They can be hurt by high Te (I may sound cold and matter-of-fact in high Te mode, even when that's not my intention), so I can imagine when they are with LIEs there might be a lot of unexpressed hurt feelings.

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    Isn't it sad how we unwittingly hurt the people we care about without much that can be done about it, @Vis?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vis View Post
    Beta Fe means brotherhood and by your side no matter what you do. This can be interpreted as true devotion or enabling.
    And here I was thinking that Fi always was true devotion and compassion to the other?

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