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Thread: Heaven, Hell and Purgatory

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Default Heaven, Hell and Purgatory

    Anyone want to talk about it?

    It has been much on my mind. And also, especially, @Subteigh, you have been on my mind because you have brought up this topic before, pointing out things I didn't want to think about. Well I have done more thinking now. And I worry about you. So you were my inspiration for bringing up the old topic again.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    FreelancePoliceman's Avatar
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    Since no one’s responded yet, what particularly interests you?
    Clicks speed growth.


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    Life is the real hell!

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    What did Subteigh say? /curious

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    Purgatory has always confused me. The concept was first appeared sometime in the Middle Ages and no denomination except Roman Catholicism adheres to it. Why would sins need to be "purged" when God is capable of just forgiving the sinner about to enter into Heaven?

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    I'm not sure if any one or more of them really exist, but I'm of the opinion that it's linked to socionics subtype. Basically, since LSI-Ti and ESI-Fi and IEE are usually so miserable and can't do anything on their own (they need everyone else for everything they have and they can't create good systems), they could never go to heaven; they always find fault with everything and they wouldn't be themselves if they didn't worry plus they can't live peacefully with other people... their own minds are their own hell, so that wouldn't change after they die.

    My own mind is my own hell. Maybe my afterlife will be even worse and I worry that I will have an afterlife that's not good all the time, but it's just not me to be satisfied for long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    You're such a boring midwit.
    Give me an exact description of what you believe to be the nature of evil, and what is or is not evil, and maybe I will grant you a response.

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    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dauphin View Post
    You're such a boring midwit.
    Give me an exact description of what you believe to be the nature of evil, and what is or is not evil, and maybe I will grant you a response.
    I don't believe in evil as an useful concept.

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    Dauphin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I don't believe in evil as an useful concept.
    Then your meme is meaningless.

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    meme hotline Chae's Avatar
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    Dante def went off with his poetry on it tbh and he rightfully called it a comedy, fuck it up my boy you look good!



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    Quote Originally Posted by Dauphin View Post
    Purgatory has always confused me. The concept was first appeared sometime in the Middle Ages and no denomination except Roman Catholicism adheres to it. Why would sins need to be "purged" when God is capable of just forgiving the sinner about to enter into Heaven?
    For people who believe in purgatory, then maybe they would answer God didn't want to do that and purgatory was a system God wanted to create. I don't know why the Roman Catholic Church wouldn't have at least one answer to that. And people like me who don't believe in God would just ask... why did God create Jesus to die on the cross if he could've just saved people without creating Jesus. And many Christians would have one or more answers to that, but that doesn't mean that any of their answers are right.

    The Bible and the Quran are loaded with inconsistencies; they are not all scientific. People who believe in God and try to understand are inconsistent by going along with some inconsistencies while not going along with other inconsistencies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Disturbed View Post
    For people who believe in purgatory, then maybe they would answer God didn't want to do that and purgatory was a system God wanted to create. I don't know why the Roman Catholic Church wouldn't have at least one answer to that. And people like me who don't believe in God would just ask... why did God create Jesus to die on the cross if he could've just saved people without creating Jesus. And many Christians would have one or more answers to that, but that doesn't mean that any of their answers are the right answer.

    The Bible and the Quran are loaded with inconsistencies; they are not all scientific. People who believe in God and try to understand are inconsistent by going along with some inconsistencies while not going along with other inconsistencies.
    Bolded. The thing is people have free will to do as they please, this is the ego or knowledge of good and evil if you wish. Faith is giving up this free will of the ego for the divine will, the will of god. Jesebus was there to show people the way to divine will, he had to show people faith in the face of cruelty, that god will rebuild its house(body of a faithful) in three days (ressurection).
    I can go on saying the purgatory would be people's attempt at purifying more than something god made, it's the ego and divine will fighting in a person, when they give up the freedom of good and evil, they reunite in god's will, achieving paradise. The purgatory is god's creation in the way god is in all of us and shoulders all sins.
    I'm no christian but I like making "sense" of that stuff, so forgive this comment, I'm not trying to convince anyone just flexin' the spiritual muscles because I find it fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Disturbed View Post
    why did God create Jesus to die on the cross if he could've just saved people without creating Jesus...
    The new covenant...the ripping of the veil...what phi said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Disturbed View Post
    The Bible and the Quran are loaded with inconsistencies; they are not all scientific. People who believe in God and try to understand are inconsistent by going along with some inconsistencies while not going along with other inconsistencies.
    That's true but I don't think there are many literalists of the Bible left. At its core it's a mishmash of evolving narrative and you can visualize who's behind each story e.g. the people behind the story of the Levite's concubine would put any monarchist party to shame. But it doesn't stop it from being beautiful and powerful.

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    The most amazing thing about the Bible is that it is the "best selling" book in history, and has been for over a thousand years.

    On the other hand, if the number of books sold is a virtue, then the Harry Potter books are the second most virtuous books ever written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    The most amazing thing about the Bible is that it is the "best selling" book in history, and has been for over a thousand years.
    No merit with the individuals of the world, really. Selling numbers reach that high probably due to boxes and boxes of copies with pages the thickness of tracing paper ordered by local churches and distributed for a few dollars or for free. But I do like the Bible, I’m thankful it’s around. It’s the national epic of the jewish people, has a anthropological interest component to it and it can be serious as well as self-indulgent if it wants to. The Book of Numbers is banana duck-taped to the wall in art exhibit level of trolling. Or the opposite ha.

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    purgatory was a middle ages invention, and I guess it came handy for the church to sell more indulgences: if you buy the indulgence you have a ticket to heaven, no matter what you did, if you don't buy indulgence and have sinned then you'll spend hundreds of years to escalate the purgatory to heaven... eheh, good advertising

    on free will I like, and agree, with St. Augustine, the real freedom is the freedom to do good only, it's God's grace, real freedom is enlightened like that. if you choose to do bad, it's not a free choice but a choice dictated by the chains of human matters, passions, you're only free in God, mind-blowing.

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    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I don't believe in evil as an useful concept.
    I believe in people who believe in evil, who have a harmful impact on the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    The most amazing thing about the Bible is that it is the "best selling" book in history, and has been for over a thousand years.

    On the other hand, if the number of books sold is a virtue, then the Harry Potter books are the second most virtuous books ever written.
    I've heard it said that the bible is the most stolen book in history.

    The number of copies burnt might be an useful measure of a book's interestingness.

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    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    Christian mainstream doctrine is based on the notion that it is acceptable to punish an innocent individual in order for Christians to evade justice.

    I find that unacceptable.

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    an octave lower inumbra's Avatar
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    Makes sense to me. If I imagine Nirvana I only imagine something like one infinite light or sound - there is only one. Call it God or whatever. The only feeling is love/infinite fulfillment. In Buddhism though, no one wants that. They want to live an exciting life in the eternal land of grasping (e.g. Earth). That's where they can exercise free will, in tangible form, in a tangible realm, and keep trying over and over, life after life to find that fulfillment that can only be found by wanting nothing and letting go of everything (which they can't accept). Their tangible realm is just an illusion, a corruption of the the one light/tone that forgot what it used to be and doesn't want to go back to "only" being that. But then perhaps without this "spiritual problem" nothing would exist at all. What is the point of Nirvana without Samsara? If you were caught in the storm of a hurricane you might not know there is a place in the center in which there is peace, and if you found that point you might think that it is something to achieve. But really the hurricane is simply a weather phenomenon and the eye is the storm, the storm is the eye.

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    Dauphin's Avatar
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    Religion is a tiresome topic of discussion because it's one the topics every idiot think's they're an expert on.

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    the no free will stuff is easier to intellectually understand through the prism of what could be regarded as modern christian advaitic mysticism e.g. Eckhart Tolle, Rupert Spira etc.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Heaven is a symbolic expression for higher consciousness, an integrated state where there are no problems. But in order to get there the individual has to deal with his own unconscious (Hell). That's why mythology tells us that the hero has to go through a period of difficulties and darkness. Hell is also dangerous because one can get stuck in it, consumed by the psyche: depression, psychosis

    EDIT:

    In the first half of life the individual is guided by current culture in society, the spirit of the times "Heaven". This leads him out on his journey to conquer the world "Hell". If he succeeds he will reach "Heaven" in being a spiritually free individual in the culture he lives in. A man fully established in the world.

    In the second half of life the inner voice of the Self is activated "Heaven" and the individual will go through a period of depression, fantasies and inner struggle "Hell". If he succeeds he will find himself as a fully integrated person.

    But Heaven as the final point of inner work is not enough. All this has to be integrated on a human level in society. Being an ordinary human being is a higher state than being some Buddha. So the final state is Heaven-on-Earth. That's true enlightenment.

    This is something like my current understanding of Heaven, Hell and individuation.
    Last edited by Tallmo; 05-01-2020 at 01:02 PM.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dauphin View Post
    Then your meme is meaningless.
    SubT’s image doesn’t argue the existence of evil; it criticizes someone who believes in it and believes in heaven.
    Clicks speed growth.


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    the neuroscientists who have investigated free will, Libet, Gazzaniga, seem to support the idea that we don't have free will, we're like machines responding to signals that have established their patterns in our brains, habit creates most of our responses, and indeed we live so much of our waking life in auto-pilot, relying on these patterns that are all but conscious and that run all the times. it's unsettling maybe but this knowledge can even make us better, if so much of what we choose is already dictated by previous actions, then we can really decide to change, by breaking our habits, learning to choose better, choose differently, we exercise free will... but if free will didn't aim at this betterment, what would be its use?

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    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    To paraphrase the band Wilco, who used a double negative which gives the original quote the exact opposite of its intended meaning: "Theologians - they know nothing about my soul."

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    Mainstream Christianity is based on the notion that someone's suicide is necessary in order for people to be absolved of their sins:
    "I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. " - John 10:17-18

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    I can't actually remember the things I supposedly pointed out in another thread that @Eliza Thomason didn't want to think about.


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    Heaven and hell: invisible realms of rewards and punishments that you only get proof of when you die. I'm surprised more people don't question the idea.

    -Just be okay with poverty and subjugation while you're alive... You'll get rewarded in heaven!
    -Be obedient or you'll suffer after you die.

    And people believe it. I guess because they're too afraid not to in many cases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    People being afraid of Hell makes them miserable because their mind is spending time in Hell. It's not even necessary for a place called Hell to exist, people just think it into reality.

    I think if you're miserable while you're alive nothing can make you happy after you die, and if you're happy while you're alive nothing could make you miserable after you die. The point of religions is supposed to be to tell people how to live, not to tell people that life is terrible and death is great anyways.
    First paragraph: now I know why life is so shitty these days. lol

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    an octave lower inumbra's Avatar
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    I wasn't raised Christian, but I took a lot of religious philosophy courses in college that I adored (all of them, IOW). I remember from Christian philosophy that Jesus was saying heaven and hell are here with us. It's not that these were concepts so much in his Jewish faith, but that he was saying it's your choice : we can make heaven here, on Earth (his faith did not believe in Christian concepts of the afterlife).

    I am open to corrections. The Christian phl prof (only one) at my university had emerged from a sort of crisis of faith to redevelop his views, though he gave us numerous examples of how Christian scholars don't all agree and there isn't simply one answer. It really helped me with my experiences with evangelical Christians to finally meet a practicing Christian who acknowledged things are not so simple as there is only one dogma (AKA the US evangelical nightmare in which they are completely obtuse and will not leave you alone even when it should be apparent they are doing harm).

    A takeaway: Jesus was a Jew. Just like Siddhartha Gautama was a Hindu. They founded new belief systems, sure. But don't neglect where they came from and thus their identities.
    Last edited by inumbra; 05-03-2020 at 12:47 AM.

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    Head chef on the SS Diarrhea Grendel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    A takeaway: Jesus was a Jew. Just like Siddhartha Gautama was a Hindu. They founded new belief systems, sure. But don't neglect where they came from and thus their identities.


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    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    As far as I can tell, this may be the instance @Eliza Thomason was referring to, given that I quoted her and that I mentioned hell. But it seems as though I talk about the subject fairly frequently with various people over the years here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Christianity's central doctrine is that you if you do not follow Christ, you will be tortured in hell. I find this utterly immoral, and not something I could follow. The distinction between Catholicism and Protestantism is rather irrelevant, except that anything "not Catholic" is more likely to not believe in the doctrine of Damnation.

    You talk of Catholicism having the oldest traditions, but ignore that Protestants tend to believe that their particular sect follows the core of Christ's teachings as they are written in the New Testament, without all the obsession with gilded treasures and invented rituals of Catholicism. When Christ told his followers to eat and drink in remembrance of him, it was not at a formal ceremony in Latin with the disciples clothed in fancy dress and drinking from silverware.

    If the Catholic Church sold off all its treasures that it doesn't actually use, poverty could be immediately eradicated. Instead, we have to wait another couple of decades or so. That tells you all you need to know about the Church's level of concern for the poor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    If the Catholic Church sold off all its treasures that it doesn't actually use, poverty could be immediately eradicated. Instead, we have to wait another couple of decades or so. That tells you all you need to know about the Church's level of concern for the poor.
    Depends entirely on the type of wealth. If it were stuff like gold or currency, then releasing it all back into the market would immediately collapse its value, and the impoverished class would stay poor. Even if the wealth were real resources like land, food, or oil, and even assuming the recipients knew how to use and ration it all properly, they'd likely use the wealth to start reproducing, without regard to what would be available for the next generation. Their descendants would grow in numbers beyond the carry-cap opened up by the inheritance of their parents, and within a number of generations, they'd become poor again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    Depends entirely on the type of wealth. If it were stuff like gold or currency, then releasing it all back into the market would immediately collapse its value, and the impoverished class would stay poor. Even if the wealth were real resources like land, food, or oil, and even assuming the recipients knew how to use and ration it all properly, they'd likely use the wealth to start reproducing, without regard to what would be available for the next generation. Their descendants would grow in numbers beyond the carry-cap opened up by the inheritance of their parents, and within a number of generations, they'd become poor again.
    The poorest worldwide (those in extreme/absolute poverty: "a condition characterized by severe deprivation of basic human needs, including food, safe drinking water, sanitation facilities, health, shelter, education and information. It depends not only on income but also on access to services.") mostly live in countries where the populace has a comparatively small impact on the earth's resources. I think also larger families tend to happen in countries where infant mortality is high and resources are scarce, perhaps partly out of a significant fear that their children will die young. I'm hopeful that the general trend now is to use wealth to find ways to live sustainably.

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    I never pondered about the original sin much, until last night I heard something that enlightened me, this woman was saying "of course I'm a sinner, I'm human, I'm born a sinner!", holy fuck how true is that... this simple statement made me realize so many religious things that I've often been to eager to criticize dogmatically, but I realize now they were based on a poor understanding. I find it so freeing to realize that yes, we're all sinners down here, all imperfect and maybe the only real path of God is to make us better... luv

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    Heaven and Hell are on Earth, Purgatory is after death since nobody knows for certain what happens after that I suppose.

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    heaven and hell are just regurgitations of pagan inventions. obviously christianity rests on biological impossibilities (virgin birth; human resurrection) and the bible is complete and utter nonsense (though extremely well-written nonsense!).

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