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Thread: Are socionics conflict relationships necessarily bad?

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    Default Are socionics conflict relationships necessarily bad?

    A few years ago, I studied in a different country for a year and I made two very good friends: ESI-Fi (with quite pronounced Fi) and LSE-Si. By the way, I am IEI-Ni.

    The LSE and I have always gotten along very well. Well, enneagram-wise we are quite compatible too. In fact, it's the ESI and LSE that clash the most.

    Some more things: her family is very Fe. looking back, i definitely liked her demonstrative Se a lot. Ig because she is the Si subtype it is made a bit better. but from her side, shouldn't i hit her Ni PoLR a lot? i suspect her brother to whom she's close to is EIE-Fe.

    now, we don't talk as much since an ocean separates us, but she's also not the type to talk online much. whenever i go back though, everything is just like how it was.

    i don't think we could necessarily ever become super close friends, but i still appreciate her so much, and i know she also likes me very much. i always miss her once she's gone. kind of like how they say you're supposed to feel about your dual when you get separated. except she is just not SLE! and i am definitely not EII!

    i am still confident in our relationship of course, but it just bugs me when i find things in socionics that don't align with (my) reality! usually it works pretty well.

    what do you think? have you had any positive relationships with conflictors?

    ----------
    i was just looking at this, so apparently our function dimensionality are the same as each other's duals. (IEI-Ni and IEE-Ne // SLE-Se and LSE-Si) hmmm.

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    I have one friend who is LSE so I wouldn’t say that they are always bad. Also, once I had an LSE coworker that I really liked. I had the most interesting conversations with her.

    However I do feel a certain discomfort with all the LSEs I meet. Like I have to make a conscious effort to understand what they are communicating and vice versa. I’m lazy so I don’t like having to make that kind of effort. I like it better when energy flows easily. Still it doesn’t mean that the relationships are bad, it just means that they are more tiring.

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    I think not necessarily bad, but from my experience, I have to keep a distance and it needs more effort... I find that if me and LSIs had a fight, solving that and becoming like we used to be is pretty hard, but with people from same quadra it's much easier.

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    When I first start talking to a person about personality (as a lead-in to talking about Socionics), I'll often ask them if they've ever met a person whom they just like, no matter what, and a person whom they don't like, when they don't have any good reason for not liking them.

    This leads to a discussion of the functions that everyone uses to interact with the world, and how different people use different functions, and how most people are most comfortable when dealing with others who use the same, or most of the same, functions.

    It is a pretty simple, relatable intro for someone who might never have thought about ITR's. However, like all simple things, its implications don't apply across the board, or in every case. There are Conflictors that you might like a lot, and Duals who do nothing but get on your nerves. People vary.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 04-09-2020 at 01:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by citronnade View Post
    A few years ago, I studied in a different country for a year and I made two very good friends: ESI-Fi (with quite pronounced Fi) and LSE-Si. By the way, I am IEI-Ni.

    The LSE and I have always gotten along very well. Well, enneagram-wise we are quite compatible too. In fact, it's the ESI and LSE that clash the most.

    Some more things: her family is very Fe. looking back, i definitely liked her demonstrative Se a lot. Ig because she is the Si subtype it is made a bit better. but from her side, shouldn't i hit her Ni PoLR a lot? i suspect her brother to whom she's close to is EIE-Fe.

    now, we don't talk as much since an ocean separates us, but she's also not the type to talk online much. whenever i go back though, everything is just like how it was.

    i don't think we could necessarily ever become super close friends, but i still appreciate her so much, and i know she also likes me very much. i always miss her once she's gone. kind of like how they say you're supposed to feel about your dual when you get separated. except she is just not SLE! and i am definitely not EII!

    i am still confident in our relationship of course, but it just bugs me when i find things in socionics that don't align with (my) reality! usually it works pretty well.

    what do you think? have you had any positive relationships with conflictors?

    ----------
    i was just looking at this, so apparently our function dimensionality are the same as each other's duals. (IEI-Ni and IEE-Ne // SLE-Se and LSE-Si) hmmm.
    Whoa, I thought I had read @Olimpia's page.

    The similar dimensionality of SEI-Fe and ESI-Fi may explain why I like so much the SEI-Fe that I work with. I mean, she's great. At work.

    At the Christmas Party this year, she brought her husband, possibly an ESE, and she was slightly tipsy and so the filters were a bit off, and she was talking, and I could see that there was a lot inside her that she normally didn't share, and that's a good thing. Because she was coming from another planet.

    She may have the same function dimensionality as my theoretical subtype-dual, but she intrinsically values very different things.

    She's still great, though.

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    a conflictor annoys you on psychic level - it's alike supresses your energy and distorts your attention, inspires to feel more doubts in yourself. he may do nothing special for this - you may talk about random themes and get this. the lesser formal and closer psychic distance (you introject those who are near, tune to them) - the more you'll feel this

    even when your relationships would be ok on surface behavior level

    the main way to overcome this can be the reduction of Jung type (this should reduce IR effects). and geting of external positive support to compensate conflictor's effects

    conflictors are hard to be friends with, are hard to be loved. it's possibly but very hard. you may have acceptable relations with them on more surface levels
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by citronnade View Post
    i am still confident in our relationship of course, but it just bugs me when i find things in socionics that don't align with (my) reality! usually it works pretty well.

    what do you think? have you had any positive relationships with conflictors?
    You can definitely have positive relationships with conflictors. As long as you keep some psychological distance. But at some point, when you try to get closer you hit a wall. I've experienced this myself with conflictors. It can feel confusing and disappointing.

    In order for socionics relations to play out as predicted you have to actually get in more personal spontaneous contact with each other. Surface lever might be smooth, but when it fades away then it's a different story.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    You can definitely have positive relationships with conflictors. As long as you keep some psychological distance. But at some point, when you try to get closer you hit a wall. I've experienced this myself with conflictors. It can feel confusing and disappointing.
    That's basically it. The driving force that got me into socionics was trying to make sense of the fact that no matter how hard you try, you just can't have positive close relationships with certain kinds of people (conflictors, it turns out). Keeping distance is the only way to keep the relationship positive in the long run.

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    On the other hand, I've seen many, many people recoil in horror when first encountering a Dual. The differences seem so great that if the Dual isn't actively helping you in some significant way, they can seem like complete opposites. Uninteresting at best, scary at worst.

    I have a lot of ILI friends and they get incensed just thinking about SEE Donald Trump. Now admittedly, Trump is not a very good person and most of my ILI friends are liberals, but Duality alone is not enough to overcome their differences along with his defects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    You can definitely have positive relationships with conflictors. As long as you keep some psychological distance. But at some point, when you try to get closer you hit a wall. I've experienced this myself with conflictors. It can feel confusing and disappointing.

    In order for socionics relations to play out as predicted you have to actually get in more personal spontaneous contact with each other. Surface lever might be smooth, but when it fades away then it's a different story.
    Thanks, i think you explained it very well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    When I first start talking to a person about personality (as a lead-in to talking about Socionics), I'll often ask them if they've ever met a person whom they just like, no matter what, and a person whom they don't like, when they don't have any good reason for not liking them.

    This leads to a discussion of the functions that everyone uses to interact with the world, and how different people use different functions, and how most people are most comfortable when dealing with others who use the same, or most of the same, functions.

    It is a pretty simple, relatable intro for someone who might never have thought about ITR's. However, like all simple things, its implications don't apply across the board, or in every case. There are Conflictors that you might like a lot, and Duals who do nothing but get on your nerves. People vary.
    this is more unrelated to the thread topic, but how do you usually go about introducing and explaining Socionics to people? do they usually respond well or is it more just a *shrug* ok, type of thing?

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    From a cognitive dissonance perspective, Conflicting is fifth from the bottom followed by Benefit, Supervision, Quasi, and the worst, Mirror. In certain problem-solving scenarios, dissonance can be very useful but in day-to-day living, it can cause death by a thousand cuts when someone else's behaviour is taken personally rather than viewed objectively. However, we are all capable of peacefully coexisting with all types even when there's disagreement - but compromise is necessary. There are so many other factors that can create conflict other than type. There likely would be a completely different perspective when a Dual pair that don't share religious, ethical and or political values is compared to a Conflicting pair that does......

    a.k.a. I/O
    Last edited by Rebelondeck; 04-10-2020 at 11:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    From a cognitive dissonance perspective, Conflicting is fifth from the bottom followed by Benefit, Supervision, Quasi, and the worst, Mirror. In certain problem-solving scenarios, dissonance can be very useful but in day-to-day living, it can cause death by a thousand cuts when someone else's behaviour is taken personally rather than viewed objectively. However, we are all capable of peacefully coexisting with all types even when there's disagreement - but compromise is necessary. There are so many other factors that can create conflict other than type. There likely would be a completely different perspective when a Dual pair that don't share religious, ethical and or political values is compared to a Conflicting pair that does......

    a.k.a. I/O
    @Rebelondeck, how are you measuring cognitive dissonance?

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    @Adam Strange, A while ago, I applied Maslow's hierarchy of needs to lifestyle direction and cooperative achievement of goals among the various types; it was a rather simplistic approach but seems to hold some water. There was a lot of extra rationalization that I didn't put into the article at the time because I knew that most Socionics proponents wouldn't take it seriously - and I have no ambition to try to convince them otherwise:

    http://www.socionics.com/articles/thestrength.html

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    @Adam Strange, A while ago, I applied Maslow's hierarchy of needs to lifestyle direction and cooperative achievement of goals among the various types; it was a rather simplistic approach but seems to hold some water. There was a lot of extra rationalization that I didn't put into the article at the time because I knew that most Socionics proponents wouldn't take it seriously - and I have no ambition to try to convince them otherwise:

    http://www.socionics.com/articles/thestrength.html

    a.k.a. I/O
    Thanks, @Rebelondeck.

    Your article is very well-reasoned and makes a lot of sense.

    My feelings about the ITR’s that I’ve experienced don’t always line up with your predictions, but that could be due to the attempt to paint individual cases with the same brush.

    I need to think about this some more.

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    In most regular surface social situations where people go to university or work as adults, open conflict is generally discouraged and seen as superficial and immature. That’s why we have the term “professional distance”.

    I think LSEs and IEIs seem to be professional kinds of people general, both in terms of work and personal relationships. You guys are good at being formal. So if things start off pleasant and professional between two healthy individuals, I could see how it’s possible they could stay that way and be fine between these types.

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    I once picked up an LSI classmate and threw him onto a wall. He was smaller than me (size wise, just a few days older). I've had enough of his bickering towards me so I snapped Se role on his cop ass. He commented on me being fucked up or some shit coz i grew up without a mom so I made his life hell. Had many of our friends in common bully him over the fact he was ugly af, etc. I at times thought he was ESI, but no way, deadass LSI.

    I also have an LSI "buddy" in my friends group, stuff are mostly fine with him, he's more strict but not annoying, we had a physical fight once coz i snorted some cocaine with an SEE friend and idk what he did that annoyed me and I just choked him. I've had a lot of anger issues, I was an edgy idiot. Still kind of am, but i'm self aware enough to get help. Topic changed drastically.

    Anyway, other than being kinda like close minded, wife-beater type cops, LSI's are overall fine. Honestly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    When I first start talking to a person about personality (as a lead-in to talking about Socionics), I'll often ask them if they've ever met a person whom they just like, no matter what, and a person whom they don't like, when they don't have any good reason for not liking them.

    This leads to a discussion of the functions that everyone uses to interact with the world, and how different people use different functions, and how most people are most comfortable when dealing with others who use the same, or most of the same, functions.
    That's smart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by citronnade View Post
    A few years ago, I studied in a different country for a year and I made two very good friends: ESI-Fi (with quite pronounced Fi) and LSE-Si. By the way, I am IEI-Ni.

    The LSE and I have always gotten along very well. Well, enneagram-wise we are quite compatible too. In fact, it's the ESI and LSE that clash the most.

    Some more things: her family is very Fe. looking back, i definitely liked her demonstrative Se a lot. Ig because she is the Si subtype it is made a bit better. but from her side, shouldn't i hit her Ni PoLR a lot? i suspect her brother to whom she's close to is EIE-Fe.

    now, we don't talk as much since an ocean separates us, but she's also not the type to talk online much. whenever i go back though, everything is just like how it was.

    i don't think we could necessarily ever become super close friends, but i still appreciate her so much, and i know she also likes me very much. i always miss her once she's gone. kind of like how they say you're supposed to feel about your dual when you get separated. except she is just not SLE! and i am definitely not EII!

    i am still confident in our relationship of course, but it just bugs me when i find things in socionics that don't align with (my) reality! usually it works pretty well.

    what do you think? have you had any positive relationships with conflictors?

    ----------
    i was just looking at this, so apparently our function dimensionality are the same as each other's duals. (IEI-Ni and IEE-Ne // SLE-Se and LSE-Si) hmmm.
    I wonder if it's an IEI thing. Appreciating people as individuals and building relationships with people (who seem kind or interesting) is something very important to me. I like to think Socionics will help me to understand how to maintain healthy boundaries with any of the types and those boundaries will make a friendship possoble. They might not be super close friendships but that doesn't mean you can't get to know each other quite well and form affection for each other?

    I started a poetry group at work and a lady I believe is LSE had the most refreshing contributions and is the most keen to keep the group going. I really respect her enthusiasm and also her general ability to make lighthearted convo. (I do have a LSE manager on the other hand who I absolutely cannot stand ha).

    The idea of not being able to be friends with all types makes me sad and something in me tells me it's simply not true. On the other hand I'm severely lacking friends in my own quadra and desperate to get to know those types more!

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    I am LIE-Te and supposedly, SEI's are my Conflictors while my best dual match is an ESI-Fi. (On the other hand, I think ESI-Se's are incredibly hot, as in, "Hey girl, I want to take you out," while ESI-Fi's are merely comfortable. There are differences of opinion about which subtype is best for a person. I tend to believe that the inert-contact matches (Te-Se) are best for work and the inert-inert or contact-contact (Te-Fi, Se-Ni) types might be best for intimacy, but I don't really know.)

    I do know that I get along great with an SEI-Fe Conflictor at work and did not do so well with an SEI-Si.

    @Olimpia has a site where she talks about how subtypes affect a person's functional strengths. It is here: https://typevolution.com/2016/08/28/...hs-weaknesses/

    Olimpia lists the subtypes of SEI-Fe (my Conflictor) and ESI-Fi (my Dual) as having the same functional strengths, from the strongest to the weakest:

    SEI-Fe / ESI-Fi
    1. Fi
    2. Fe / Si
    3. Se / Ni
    4. Ti / Ne
    5. Te

    Yesterday I called (everyone is working from home) the SEI-Fe to set up a virtual meeting with our customers, and then she asked me how I'm holding up in isolation, since I'm so extroverted. I felt her question as strong Fi and I immediately felt closer to her. I asked her to set up the meeting so we only share computer screens because I haven't had a haircut in two months and I'm going to be ready for a ponytail soon.
    She gushed "Oh, I know!. My hair, it's..... I hope this isolation ends soon." (Si & Fe)
    We talked about this and that for a while and what everyone is doing to cope. It was the longest convo I've had with her in a long time and I was thinking how clear and easy she is to talk with. Olimpia's ideas of subtypes being able to make your Conflictors resemble your Duals seem to be true. As long as things are kept superficial, that is.

    According to Olimpia, to the SEI-Fe, I seem like:

    ILE-Ti / LIE-Te
    1. Te
    2. Ne / Ti
    3. Se / Ni
    4. Fe / Si
    5. Fi

    ************************************************** ******
    *EDIT*
    It just occurred to me that my LSE-Te sister is married to her conflictor, an IEI-Fe male. I've always wondered how that marriage doesn't dissolve in axe-murdery, but it hasn't yet. They don't always seem like they like each other and they spend a lot of time working in separate areas, but they are still married.
    This might be why:

    Him:
    IEI-Fe / EII-Fi
    1. Fi
    2. Ni / Fe
    3. Si / Ne
    4. Ti / Se
    5. Te

    Her:
    SLE-Ti / LSE-Te
    1. Te
    2. Ti / Se
    3. Si / Ne
    4. Fe / Ni
    5. Fi

    Scary stuff.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 04-11-2020 at 03:07 PM.

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    Quasis have similar dimensionality but exactly the opposite ways and values [kindred and quasis are also opposites in their ways]. Supervision is bit easier because the ways are similar although not valued in half.

    For example LIE's want big Te ILE's want to do constrained penny pinching Te [like benefit LSE] doing huge saving via negotiation and cutting down on shiny stuff.

    ESI's are about relationships with people. EII's want to be real with their own and others values. ILE's do not want to be part in cruel power game but they will let EII's be EII's. When it comes to benefit SEI's have the same Fi as EII's do. Therefore it does not make sense that ILE would even question that although they will likely question ESI's Fi style.

    OK basically ESI to ILE: You do not have any relationships.
    ILE to ESI: You take everything at face value based on authorities and do not question others or your own understanding.

    Both will dismiss each other thinking they are being totally crazy.
    Measuring you right now

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    I think it also depends how you see friendship. This is related to your own type I guess (still newish to socionics). If I enjoying spending time with a conflictor type (even if it's in a group setting/ as colleagues) then I would regard them as a friend. The LSE friend I spoke about has been caring, interesting and inspiring and I although I might not hang out with her just us two alone (yes, she grates on me sometimes but maybe that might be more to do with me now knowing she is my conflictor) I still think we are happy we know each other.

    I also think maybe when you are younger you get on better with your conflcitor type? I had a good LSE friend when I was in my early twenties.

    Socionics has also made me doubt my friendships with IEEs and EIIs (contrary and quasi). But actually, in reality they are friendships that can benefit from knowing about socionics. I now know to not be too too close to them, and instead appreciate the kindness and intelligence of my EII friend and the support and liveliness of my IEE friends.

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