View Poll Results: ITR you've seen result in abuse/DV

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  • Conflict

    1 14.29%
  • Supervisor as Abuser

    3 42.86%
  • Supervisee as Abuser

    1 14.29%
  • Benefactor as Abuser

    1 14.29%
  • Beneficiary as Abuser

    0 0%
  • Super-ego

    1 14.29%
  • Mirage

    0 0%
  • Business

    0 0%
  • Semi-Duality

    0 0%
  • Identical

    0 0%
  • Quasi-Id

    1 14.29%
  • Contrary

    0 0%
  • Kindred

    0 0%
  • Mirror

    2 28.57%
  • Activity

    0 0%
  • Duality

    1 14.29%
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Thread: Most Common ITR in DV/Abusive Relationships? [TRIGGER WARNING]

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    Exclamation Most Common ITR in DV/Abusive Relationships? [TRIGGER WARNING]

    Lately I've been watching a lot of crimes of passion shows and exploring the theme of domestic violence.
    While I watch these shows I tend to type the people involved in these relationships and trying to figure out what ITR they have with each other.
    Can anyone share stories of either their own or others abusive/DV relationships and their sociotypes?
    Maybe we can find a common theme/functionally break down what the irritants are that cause the issues.
    I know that abusers will abuse no matter which ITR they're in, please keep your answers constructive.
    I included a trigger warning just in case.

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    I believe that abuse is not type-related, but stories are always fun.

    Abuse might be related to a general tendency towards violence, which has been shown to correlate with levels of lead in the blood. But there could be additional factors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I believe that abuse is not type-related, but stories are always fun.

    Abuse might be related to a general tendency towards violence, which has been shown to correlate with levels of lead in the blood. But there could be additional factors.
    I don't think it's type-related but I do think it's more prevalent in some inter-type relationships than others.
    For example I know a supervisor woman who physically abuses her supervisee husband

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    Ok, I’ll start. My mother is LSE and she abused all three of her kids. Physical abuse. Punching us in the face stuff. Me, LIE and Kindred, my sister, LSE and her Identical, and my other sister, LII and her Mirage. She was also mean to my dog, but I don’t know his type. She wasn’t that thrilled with her SLI Mirror husband, either.

    I can say that her abuse has had a Socionics effect. I am reactively wary of LSE’s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by calm View Post
    I don't think it's type-related but I do think it's more prevalent in some inter-type relationships than others.
    For example I know a supervisor woman who physically abuses her supervisee husband
    I had an LSI GF after my divorce from my Supervisor ex-wife, and the LSI said that she thought the SLI was abusive towards me. IDK, I put aside most of my feelings most of the time. I will say that my ex could be frustrating.

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    Once you are in an abusive relationship, there is a tendency to seek out the familiar in other relationships.

    My LSE sister married an IEI Conflictor to get her fair share of abuse. He doesn’t seem to care about her, or even like her. But my sister is living a dream of love, and he is being supported by her, so they have reached a compromise.

    My LII sister married an LSE (Mirage). She says that he is emotionally crippled (compared to an ESFJ, well, yeah), but the sex was good. Until he decided to punish her for not being an EII and stopped having sex with her. That was five years ago. I’d call that abuse. He also ran up some incredible debts, so if they split the assets which are actually debts, then she’d be broke forever trying to pay her half without his income. So let’s add manipulation to abuse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Ok, I’ll start. My mother is LSE and she abused all three of her kids. Physical abuse. Punching us in the face stuff. Me, LIE and Kindred, my sister, LSE and her Identical, and my other sister, LII and her Mirage. She was also mean to my dog, but I don’t know his type. She wasn’t that thrilled with her SLI Mirror husband, either.

    I can say that her abuse has had a Socionics effect. I am reactively wary of LSE’s.
    I grew up with mirror LSE/SLI parents also. Hated it. I witnessed 0 love and affection between them, they're like cold robots. Anyways, when we were kids LSE used to physically abuse SLI on occasion but they've tapered down considerably to short verbal outbursts.

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    I've been slapped, punched, kicked, and hit with all kinds of things by a dual or two or three that (understandably though wrongfully) thought I was cheating on them. But, at the time, I never really saw it as abuse because 1.) I wasn't actually hurt or scared; I'm much bigger/stronger than they are and didn't feel powerless, 2.) have ties to a culture where expressed anger and "getting physical" is somewhat normative, 3.) theoretically, duality allegedly orients us towards sympathy, forgiveness and looking past grievances big and small, and 4.) my Quadra, in part due to valuing Se (the show of will and force) that acts based on valued Fi (deep conviction), is predisposed to various forms of power displays and "turn up," according to Strat >

    Gamma Quadra types (especially, sensing ones, SEE and ESI) immediately lose control over themselves and will undertake anything to destroy their tormentor both morally and physically. (Such abuse Gamma types won't forgive to anyone!) Gamma Quadra will put to use all of their resources, all the materials at hand (up to sharp or cutting objects), but won't let the offender get away unpunished. The desire to put one's fists to use and beat the tormentor to death (or even tear him apart with bare hands) in such moments is overwhelming, thus the attack may be very brutal and fast.
    All things considered, I'd think duality (followed by other more cognitively compatible IRs [most likely intra quadra ITR]) might present a situation where one is inclined to stay in an abusive relationship. My parents (SEE and LIE) were rather mentally and verbally abusive towards each other and to a lesser extent, me, as far as placing me in dangerous situations (allegedly for my betterment) that were grossly inappropriate for a child. What makes me think that cognitive compatibility is key towards healing, or at the very least, tolerating certain types of seemingly untreatable wounds is that we all still loved and constantly forgave each other. For a long time, and certainly before learning about Socionics, it was hard for me to reconcile the affection I was able maintain for those who objectively did me wrong and caused much harm--I almost felt as if I were being weak and dumb because I didn't definitively cut them off. But, in addition to the role my wonky Fi played (by either not valuing a relationship whatsoever or hyper valuing it to my detriment), the common denominator in my acceptance and forgiveness of abuse was a highly favorable, compatible IR, especially towards those within my own Quadra.

    Theoretically, it makes sense that those sharing the same or similar function stacking and strength (identity and mirror) might possess more empathy and sympathy towards the expression of certain shared thought patterns and behaviors (maladaptive or otherwise) and those who are strong where their partners are weak (activity and duality) might hold more subconscious sway over each other's vulnerable judgment and perception functions, thereby causing confusion, dependence, complacency and indulgence where perhaps there shouldn't be.

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    Huh, I never pegged ESIs as a type likely to be violent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Huh, I never pegged ESIs as a type likely to be violent.
    @FreelancePoliceman, I’ve never encountered a violent ESI, but I haven’t had one as an actual GF. Still, it’s hard to imagine them being violent. Mad, yes. Angry, yes. But I imagine them stomping off in a huff, rather than taking a swing at a person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @FreelancePoliceman, I’ve never encountered a violent ESI, but I haven’t had one as an actual GF. Still, it’s hard to imagine them being violent. Mad, yes. Angry, yes. But I imagine them stomping off in a huff, rather than taking a swing at a person.
    Same here.

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    The creative function stays well hidden in public if it harms keeping up with ethics of relations in case of ESI.

    It seems that when Se creatives loose it they'll do it domestically.

    Some of them really seem hot headed even if you look at media coverage in case they are under the lens of reporters [lots of IEE's in that field].

    Quite funny is that Se bases might not have such problems at all as in domestic sphere.
    Last edited by Chin Diaper 007; 04-06-2020 at 08:55 AM.
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    I was actually going to say that ESI is the most violent type in my opinion. But that's only based on my experienced. My brother is ESI and he has the quickest temper which often translates into verbal or physical violence. .I knew a ESI girl who would get angry and throw stuff at her friends or boyfriend. One day at a party she just started throwing plates against the wall.

    Of all my life, 3 people have tried to get physical with me (that I can remember of at least). 2 of them were ESI and one of them was LSE (he was my coworker lol)

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Huh, I never pegged ESIs as a type likely to be violent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @FreelancePoliceman, Iíve never encountered a violent ESI, but I havenít had one as an actual GF. Still, itís hard to imagine them being violent. Mad, yes. Angry, yes. But I imagine them stomping off in a huff, rather than taking a swing at a person.
    Unless you subscribe to some notion of Se I'm unfamiliar with, I don't see at all how it's hard to imagine an ESI (with strong, valued, 3D Se) becoming violent. I'm not talking about the manifestation of Se at the social level, as it pertains to accomplishing goals or diligently performing tasks, but at the physical level. The definitions of Se I adhere to are those that describe it as the mobilization of force/direct action, willfully applying pressure/willingness to confront, corporeal confidence and awareness of not only one's own ability to manifest adequate force but adeptly gauging that in others/weighing the kinetic energy of objects, etc.... The ass beaters of the world tend to excel in this area. Combine that with the weight of one's potent, deep conviction/feeling and/or defending their core principles (Fi), and it shouldn't be hard to see how Fi/Se could come together as a scary, powerful weapon.

    IME, ESIs don't often wantonly throw their weight around in a pugilistic manner or provoke confrontation for the sake of, but if they're acting "defensively," as in standing up for something/someone they believe in or acting based on pure subjective emotion in the moment, that could very well manifest as a physical rebuff. Although I'd say that sub type matters (ESI-Se is more likely to "lay hands"), all manner of ESI and strong Se valuers by extension have the immediate wherewithal to be physically threatening/confrontational if so inclined.

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    It could be that there's a trend in the formation of an abuser, rather than the abuse resulting from the relationship between the abuser and the victim. I've noticed that people with supervisor parents can be abusive, even to their duals.

    Really though, there are too many mean assholes in the world for Socionics to explain all of them.

    It's probably better to think of cruelty as a contagious thing.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_contagion

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_contagion

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    youd think theoretically id would be supervision. especially since a potential abusive person is much more likely to get triggered by something out of line if it's related to their leading function. so, say an SEI does something stupid with taxes for example and it pisses off their spouse whos LSE. the LSE would get more pissed off than if they'd married an LIE instead whos less likely to mess up in the same way.
    sure, the LIE LSE pairing might still have a slightly abusive relationship because the LSE would inherently be a bad person, but would it be as bad if theyd married the SEI?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sullutac View Post
    youd think theoretically id would be supervision. especially since a potential abusive person is much more likely to get triggered by something out of line if it's related to their leading function. so, say an SEI does something stupid with taxes for example and it pisses off their spouse whos LSE. the LSE would get more pissed off than if they'd married an LIE instead whos less likely to mess up in the same way.
    sure, the LIE LSE pairing might still have a slightly abusive relationship because the LSE would inherently be a bad person, but would it be as bad if theyd married the SEI?
    Playing with taxes is more LIE (and even SLE) sort of stuff and IEI's would be the target. In fact many LSE's might see problems when it comes to using taxation as some sort of playground.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Huh, I never pegged ESIs as a type likely to be violent.
    south american ESI-Se yeah could be violent
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    Quote Originally Posted by COVID 007 View Post
    Playing with taxes is more LIE (and even SLE) sort of stuff and IEI's would be the target. In fact many LSE's might see problems when it comes to using taxation as some sort of playground.
    yeah the LSE i know is too conservative and worried about losing money to do that. also she thinks it's immoral. but i meant like the SEI would mess up with filing them in my example

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Huh, I never pegged ESIs as a type likely to be violent.
    I destroyed that notion years ago...

    actually "ESIs as a type not likely to be violent" was never really a notion aside from, just every now and then, somebody (typically a newcomer) who doesn't know North from South and actually takes the quadra values mythology seriously comes out of the woodwork with it.

    Idea that betas are only violent is born out of a one typology closed mindset echoing the quadra values mythology.

    quadra values is a relic of the past. just about nobody uses it anymore (even if they say they do), which kind of makes your 'notion' sound, well, obsolete...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    I destroyed that notion years ago...

    actually "ESIs as a type not likely to be violent" was never really a notion aside from, just every now and then, somebody (typically a newcomer) who doesn't know North from South and actually takes the quadra values mythology seriously comes out of the woodwork with it.

    Idea that betas are only violent is born out of a one typology closed mindset echoing the quadra values mythology.

    quadra values is a relic of the past. just about nobody uses it anymore (even if they say they do), which kind of makes your 'notion' sound, well, obsolete...
    You say this, yet your username is Kill4Me, you talk like a gangster, and your avatar is of iced up grillz.

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    Quote Originally Posted by somnambulat0ry View Post
    ex partner tested SEE in socionics tests and esfp mbti . had a charming public face but in private a very short fuse, was quick to throw punches if contradicted. I am not 100% set on my own type but think either lead or creative Fe. it was my indecisiveness and constant seeking to be on the same page that drove SEE mad. when I asked questions in an effort to understand underlying motive or emotion I was accused of diminishing the relationship. Fi/Fe clash?
    I’m sorry you went through that. Have you tried to confirm your type? Before I put down a point for quasi-id

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    Chris Brown is an SEE and Rihanna is an ESI.
    When I learned that it became easy to see how a typical Mirror argument blow up turned physical that way.
    I began to notice a trend of Se valuing mirrors getting physical when fighting but especially base and creative Se.

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    My guess is that ESI, SEE-Se, and LSI-Ti are the most violent in domestic relationships.

    Kimberly Kane is an ILE-Ti, and she was violent towards a man who was in several videos with her. Sometimes I wonder if she's a psychopath although my guess is that she's not since she seems to have more need to actually be dominant and to have interpersonal control than psychopaths would; she's so strong, so smart, so beautiful, so great, so perfect.

    I have an EIE-Ni female cousin and she was violent one time towards her SLE husband (she threw a remote controller at him).

    I saw a photo of an IEE hit his SLE ex-girlfriend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by calm View Post
    Chris Brown is an SEE and Rihanna is an ESI.
    When I learned that it became easy to see how a typical Mirror argument blow up turned physical that way.
    I began to notice a trend of Se valuing mirrors getting physical when fighting but especially base and creative Se.
    Ive had two boyfriends who are my mirrors, IEE, and both have gotten physically violent with me when they got really drunk.

    C-EII-INFj 4w3 Sx/sp 479

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shytan View Post
    Ive had two boyfriends who are my mirrors, IEE, and both have gotten physically violent with me when they got really drunk.
    I actually know an IEE who was highly abusive to his ex when they were dating and still tries stalking her and texting her and all this weird controlling shit even though they've been broken up for a year now..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shytan View Post
    Ive had two boyfriends who are my mirrors, IEE, and both have gotten physically violent with me when they got really drunk.
    I can see this. Se role gets out of hand when highly unhealthy, I attempted to stab some guy with scissors once, and other time i kinda did stab someone but that blade wasn't sharpened, or else i'd have been sent to some mental asylum (i was in high school at the moment).

    I have never gotten physical with any ex though, nor any woman. But i've had women get physical with me. One of them being my sister.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingslayer View Post
    I actually know an IEE who was highly abusive to his ex when they were dating and still tries stalking her and texting her and all this weird controlling shit even though they've been broken up for a year now..
    As we have said before, Fi creative can make hell of a sociopath.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I had an LSI GF after my divorce from my Supervisor ex-wife, and the LSI said that she thought the SLI was abusive towards me. IDK, I put aside most of my feelings most of the time. I will say that my ex could be frustrating.
    Kinda wanna be abused by your ex wife now

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    south american ESI-Se yeah could be violent
    that's racism.

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    I've seen supervisees also being kinda abusive towards supervisors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    It could be that there's a trend in the formation of an abuser, rather than the abuse resulting from the relationship between the abuser and the victim. I've noticed that people with supervisor parents can be abusive, even to their duals.

    Really though, there are too many mean assholes in the world for Socionics to explain all of them.

    It's probably better to think of cruelty as a contagious thing.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_contagion

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_contagion
    I've supervisor mother and I'm not abusive. My mom is rather sweet and accepting of her kids. I used to react poorly to some of her comments but I try to have patience now. Though, I know an IEI with supervisee and conflict parents and she's rather abusive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingslayer View Post
    I actually know an IEE who was highly abusive to his ex when they were dating and still tries stalking her and texting her and all this weird controlling shit even though they've been broken up for a year now..
    I read about IEEs finding it hard to get over relationships long after they ended because they are subconsciously built to handle the on-off nature of SLIs bc apparently the SLI-IEE relationship is a very I’m-pulling-away-but-we’re-still-together on-off kind of relationship.
    I’ve experienced the same with an SLI who thought we were still dating yet we hadn’t talked in over a month and I had assumed he was disinterested and moved on (we weren’t actually dating, but he said we were when he confronted me)
    Idk if anyone else has had this with SLIs and IEEs

    C-EII-INFj 4w3 Sx/sp 479

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
    that's racism.
    Wouldn't that be continent-ism?

    I think I know what FDG meant, though. I spent some time in Argentina and Brazil and Chile and the societies there are different from the States. Not radically different, but different.

    Like the difference between: a John Ford western and a Sergio Leone western.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shytan View Post
    I read about IEEs finding it hard to get over relationships long after they ended because they are subconsciously built to handle the on-off nature of SLIs bc apparently the SLI-IEE relationship is a very I’m-pulling-away-but-we’re-still-together on-off kind of relationship.
    I’ve experienced the same with an SLI who thought we were still dating yet we hadn’t talked in over a month and I had assumed he was disinterested and moved on (we weren’t actually dating, but he said we were when he confronted me)
    Idk if anyone else has had this with SLIs and IEEs
    @Shytan, IMO, you nailed it. The SLI is always a day late and a mile away but is very, very faithful, while the IEE is like

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Wouldn't that be continent-ism?

    I think I know what FDG meant, though. I spent some time in Argentina and Brazil and Chile and the societies there are different from the States. Not radically different, but different.

    Like the difference between: a John Ford western and a Sergio Leone western.
    Why a south american ESI could be violent and some european or north american could not? Because of their race or culture? There are peaceful or violent ppl in every country and culture.


    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @Shytan, IMO, you nailed it. The SLI is always a day late and a mile away but is very, very faithful, while the IEE is like
    that's typism. There are faithful and unfaithful ppl from all the types.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @Shytan, IMO, you nailed it. The SLI is always a day late and a mile away but is very, very faithful, while the IEE is like
    Do you think IEEs are unfaithful?

    C-EII-INFj 4w3 Sx/sp 479

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
    I've supervisor mother and I'm not abusive. My mom is rather sweet and accepting of her kids. I used to react poorly to some of her comments but I try to have patience now. Though, I know an IEI with supervisee and conflict parents and she's rather abusive.
    Does she have two sets of parents?

    I have to assume you're typing everyone accurately here to accept the ITRs you're mentioning. It does seem like there's variation in what happens. I've known a couple examples of ESI-SLE parental supervision. One SLE turned out fairly well while the other destroyed or tried to destroy everyone he got close to it seemed like. Both were cases of ESI mother SLE son. There was a difference in observed intelligence: one could read while the other had major issues with reading. I didn't get to know the SLE who turned out fairly well all that well though, so maybe he had a bad side I didn't know about lol. They both seemed to have relationship problems, but he still seemed a lot more innocent.

    Maybe things like this are cases of ITR + chance pushing things over the edge. Idk. The SLE with major issues seemed like he was much more sure of himself though. It was difficult to tell if he was doing something because he was misinterpreting people's behavior or because he just felt like being mean. Maybe it was a mix of the two. His best friend was fairly similar to him in character and life outcome. They both held the title of "worst people I've ever known."

    There was a funny connection between them though. He couldn't read, and his best friend could do nothing but read --and talk. The SLE seemed like he worshipped the ground the other guy walked on but they fought and criticized each other at times. The friend thought he was better than everyone he met, but hid his personal attitudes very well. They both did a good job of generally making people think they were something other than what they were. The truth only came out in close proximity to them for many people.

    And yeah I've known a few IEI women who were up to no good and loved messing with people. SLEs and IEIs often seem to share that trait if they "go bad" so to speak. Driving people nuts, instigating, provoking. etc. A lot of what they do revolves around threats, ultimatums, subtly crossing boundaries to get people to react to them in certain ways.

    "Abusive" is also a relative term. I imagine what a Beta and Delta find to be abusive is different. But it also seems like whenever I've found a more troublesome SLE or IEI, they seem at times to fully realize themselves as being such and are totally fine with it.
    Last edited by Aramas; 04-10-2020 at 11:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post

    Does she have two sets of parents?
    one is her supervisee and the other one her conflictor.


    I have to assume you're typing everyone accurately here to accept the ITRs you're mentioning.
    I could use the same argument about what you are describing.

    It could be that there's a trend in the formation of an abuser, rather than the abuse resulting from the relationship between the abuser and the victim.I've noticed that people with supervisor parents can be abusive, even to their duals.
    for saying that something is a trend it should be based in the observation of many supervision parental relations from different types.

    Really though, there are too many mean assholes in the world for Socionics to explain all of them.
    true

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shytan View Post
    Do you think IEEs are unfaithful?
    No, I don't think that IEE's are unfaithful, exactly. But they do have loads of Ne, which to me is the essence of alternate actions and never coming to a final conclusion, which, I think, can be dangerous to most relationships.

    I know four IEE's, all woman, ranging from decades of interaction time to hours. They are:

    1. My SLI ex-wife's sister, an IEE-Ne. She was married to an LSE for a while and had two kids, then left him because he was a "conservative asshole". Next, she had an asshole lawyer for a BF for many years. I don't know his type, but I remember that I didn't particularly like him. Then, she married an EII who worked as a truck driver and a photographer and a preacher and really is waiting to find out what he wants to do. She doesn't complain about him, but it doesn't seem like it's the best situation for either of them.

    2. An IEE-Fi. She is married to an ILE and has two kids and she can't wait to get out of the marriage and has asked me how to find an SLI-Te, since she met my son and father and they are both SLI-Te's. She isn't cheating on the ILE, but she's disappointed that he never "grew up". And man, is she ever ready for a new man.

    3. An IEE-Fi woman I know from work. She is married to an archaeology professor whom she complains about sometimes, but she does not find him problematic enough to seriously look elsewhere. She does spend all her spare time at work talking with a divorced SLI-Si guy.

    4. An IEE who works at my father's nursing home. I was encouraging her to talk to my SLI father more (because they'd both benefit) and I was telling her what kind of guy I thought she'd like. I described an SLI. She listened, and then said that that a guy like that sounded better than any of her previous husbands.

    The dynamic that I've seen between SLI's and IEE's is that the SLI does his own thing; carpentry, car repair, saving money for a rainy day, while basically ignoring women. Absolutely ignores them in any observable romantic sense. He might be a total gentleman and act towards women with great consideration, but he's not going to take any action. I've asked my SLI son how he feels about women, and he said that most of them are trouble. He's not gay, incidentally. He's just discerning and holds his cards very close to his chest.
    The IEE has to break through these defenses. Her strategy is randomness and the unexpected, including what seem to be overt sexual offers. She might do this with every guy, BUT, if the guy responds in any way except by being inert, she shuts him down and then forever ignores him. That sexiness act is a filter for SLI's.

    The IEE has to be pretty over-the-top and keep hammering away at the SLI. Otherwise, she just won't get through. The SLI has to be stable (to counter her randomness) and a Guardian-Caregiver to her Infantile, and he has to just ignore her Ne 95% of the time or he'd go crazy. The SLI lives in terror that his life is going to be terminally boring and the IEE's randomness relieves that fear, but a little goes a long way.

    The SLI is going to be dead stable and seemingly disinterested, and the IEE is going to jump at every rabbit, but will avoid other hunters and will only force a guy to accept her presence if he's a genuine SLI (assuming she knows what she needs - which usually takes her some amount of experimenting).

    So to answer your question, No, I don't think that IEE's are more unfaithful than other types. I do think that they can LOOK like they are looking, possibly as a test for SLI-ness, and possibly as a result of jumping at the wrong rabbit and now they have to start over with another rabbit.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 04-11-2020 at 01:45 AM.

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