How many of you have actually lived with or worked closely with or have had a close friend with a confirmed Ni PoLR?
Ni-PoLR -- How does it manifest in ESFjs and ESTjs?
How many of you have actually lived with or worked closely with or have had a close friend with a confirmed Ni PoLR?
Me! I <3 ESEs!Originally Posted by Joy
Why is this a thread?
EII; E6(w5)
i am flakey
Not even sure what that would mean.
Could mean different things. In this case, for the most part it probably means that a Ni PoLR makes sense for them... not just that they're presumably ESxj and therefore must have a Ni PoLR.
I grew up with one.
Basically, it means this:
Edit:
I will procrastinate dealing with complex problems until the world falls down around me
Which of the eight aspects of reality are you referring to?
(but in any case, healthy people don't do that, regardless of their type)
yeah, says santa clause and the easter bunny
Si-ESFj 2w3 so/sp mom -- shocker, I know. And a bunch of machismo douche bag husbands in my neighborhood are ESTjs. The way this magnificent phenomenon seems to operate is, essentially, lacking a propensity for implicit, abstract connections between things. From an Ni base perspective, these people seem pedantic and unable to process anything that isn't spelled out neatly for them. They would probably see me as someone who is overly-vague and lacking clarity in thought/communication. I've never witnessed any time management crap being related to Ni polr, and I hope this thread doesn't get bombarded with such things. ESxj's just seem really, really concrete and unable to traverse outside of the current, externally-defined context/dynamic that they are operating in.
4w3-5w6-8w7
Basically what Strrrng said. Almost like they think critical thinking is rude, or it isn't cool.
When you say something to them which isn't having to do with the immediate world, they get this deer in the headlights look and go into a mode where they try to pretend they know what you're talking about.
what happens in an argument, is you repeat yourself until you end up saying one sentence over and over again. then after much resistance they agree with you, and then a few hours later go on and do the opposite.
It's also worth noting they have almost no ability to learn from their mistakes, or recognize the causes of their mistakes.
Last edited by crazedrat; 11-30-2008 at 07:01 AM.
this is hilarious, because this is exactly how i feel toward Ne-PoLR types.
EII; E6(w5)
i am flakey
lol +20
Ne polr types seem to make the implicit connections fine to me; it's just that they seem unable to sort of permutate anything externally. They will frequently take an overly-definitive attitude towards a given idea, which may have validity up to a certain point, but inevitably will cause them to miss some other angles. But theirs is different than the ESxj's -- the former being inept at seeing the external connections/interpolations, the latter being inept at synthesizing things internally. A matter of being unwilling to break anything down vs. sucking at centralizing.
4w3-5w6-8w7
That's very good.
Now, if you can just stop getting giddy with your lols and realize when you're taking emotionally charged biases against people based on your likes and dislikes, you could get even better; that's what's annoying, at times (to me). But I like what you wrote there - you seem to have more understanding now than before, and it's nice to see the growth and better ability to explain things well.
PS: I think I am starting to understand (that type of behavioral) better, though, in terms of your loling and emotionality stuff. It seems to be a matter of realizing when you're just "roasting things" for sake of "generating energy", versus when you're actually just trying to explain something fully. When you mix the two together, both seem less weighty. But that is perhaps related to my own lack of understanding about such things.
(I wrote this post in reference to "strrrng", but there's a lot of carry over to other people I know who are like him and have similar motivations and tendencies)
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Thanks.
lol, point taken. I appreciate it.Now, if you can just stop getting giddy with your lols and realize when you're taking emotionally charged biases against people based on your likes and dislikes, you could get even better; that's what's annoying, at times (to me). But I like what you wrote there - you seem to have more understanding now than before, and it's nice to see the growth and better ability to explain things well.
Yeah, it's sort of frequently co-mingled with the explanation part, so a lot can be lost, like you said. I might just see a weakness in the person, something I dislike, flaw in the argument, and decide to, instead of calmly countering it, 'burn' it, so to speak (the roasting image was lucid and hilarious).PS: I think I am starting to understand (that type of behavioral) better, though, in terms of your loling and emotionality stuff. It seems to be a matter of realizing when you're just "roasting things" for sake of "generating energy", versus when you're actually just trying to explain something fully. When you mix the two together, both seem less weighty. But that is perhaps related to my own lack of understanding about such things.
4w3-5w6-8w7
Why not? 27 month ago I've asked my ESFj-Si friend what annoys him most. He said that he can't tolerate when people are being late. At that time I didn't knew anything about socionics and I found his answer to be very strange and I was thinking: "OK that can be annoying but there are much worse things than that".
My ESTj father gets really, really angry when TV-program doesn't follow schedule. Even one minute of discrepancy is accompanied by cursing and swearing.
Si is "now and here", Ni is "everywhere except now". So if you're ESxj (especially Si-subtype) you're in deep trouble if someone constantly applies "everywhere except now" -Ni on you.
As you said:
Last edited by Trevor; 11-30-2008 at 04:30 PM.
That's true, I have seen Ni polr manifest itself as time retardation. But strrrngs sentiments are more to do with not having people think of it only in those terms, which is likely to happen given peoples bookworm understanding of socionics and seeming lack of real world experience.
For example, there was this day I had 30 minutes until work, so my ride (ESFj-Fe mother) decided to run to the mall 'real quick'. She got caught in traffic both on the way there, and in the parking garage; and then she didn't consider the 5 minute walk INTO the mall, then back. It took her an hour, and I ended up 30 minutes late for work. She is also terrible at estimating traveling times. Like we'll always arrive at the airport hours early, then sit around for 2-3 hours. If we need to drive to the store real fast, it'll 'just take 5 minutes' .. where there's no way it'll take less then 20. etc.
My ESTj-Te bro quit his new job because he was 10 minutes late. So he decided not to go in at all.
etc.
That's the opposite of what I've seen. Si-PoLRs are often late, and people with strong Ni are ultra punctual. An example - my ESFj and ISFp inlaws were visiting at my house, and they were supposed to go hang out with my ENTj and ENFj parents. I told them how hyper-punctual my parents were and had to work hard to get them out of the house, because they are usually late to things. I got them out at least close to on time, but TWO MINUTES after they were supposed to be there, my parents called asking why they were late.
Also, my ISTp husband, not Ni PoLR but weak and unvalued Ni anyway, is always late. He will tell me he'll be back at 1 and I just translate it in my head to 1:30 to 1:40 or so. And it's worse if he's out with his ESTj friend. They just don't pay attention at all to the time. If they say they'll be back at 1, I might end up calling at 4 to see where they are.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
Yeah, you're right. They are often late on accident; or because they really don't give shit; they don't recognize the obligation. But I also think they're the folks who become annoyed BY lateness, where a Ni dominant type will adapt to the new schedule with no effort; and this may be because the lateness itself brings up the topic of Ni.
I guess that was a typo. You meant Ni-PoLRs.
I've never said that Ni-PoLRs are punctual. But they really appreciate when others are. They all have "if I don't undertake this/that/everything now, then world is going to fall apart"-attitude. So existance of schedules saves them from burnout. Otherwise they would be even more lost-in-the-fog.
Hmm. Well, my ESE husband and I are almost never late to anything. He hates being late, mostly because he wants to be efficient with his time (efficiency is very important to him) and for me it's just a matter of knowing how long things are going to take and building in the extra time for unforeseen circumstances. Especially with kids, this is important. When I point it out that we ought to build in extra time for this or that, he agrees with me and seems grateful that I pointed it out. And yes, he's usually annoyed with other people being late or if we're late due to circumstances beyond our control (i.e. traffic). In that situation I have to calm him down and assure him that it's not a big deal. He lets me take the lead with this stuff and seems to appreciate it. He sometimes calls me a pessimist but I just tell him I'm a realist.
He does have an occasional problem with not eating and letting his blood sugar get too low. He will sometimes (usually at work or at home if he's in the middle of a project) put off eating until he's extremely crabby. Even if I come to him and say "you really should come eat something", he won't. I have to literally bring the food to him. Then afterwards he'll be like yeah, I was hungry, you were right, whoa is it already 1:00? it's like he just doesn't realize how long the project's going to take and isn't paying attention to anything internal since he's so externally focused. I don't know if that's Ni PoLR, just throwing it out there.
IEI-Fe 4w3
Actually, I hate when things are late too (I also hate to be late myself, so I am always super punctual - but I also know ENTjs that don't have this fixation, so I can't chalk it up to type). One of the things I can tolerate less in others is consistent lateness. I can't really live for them (if somebody is late 3 hours to a meeting, I don't go doing something else - I keep on waiting them, so it's 3 hours of my life completely wasted).
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
One ESTj and four ESFjs I know are doing that regularly. Is that positively correlated with Ni PoLR? I don't know.
Last edited by Trevor; 11-30-2008 at 04:53 PM.
Lol, so you say 'by not voting I essentially voted for both candidates', then you argue that into the ground.
You have to admit, it can be fun baiting Ni polr.
It seems unusual for an ESFj to destroy the mood of things over something like that; but then again, I really can't imagine an ESTj caring so much about voting.
Admittedly, my mother always has this urgency bordering on panic tone in her voice when discussing possible outcomes of the most trivial things.
Some of this is also Ne HA function.
Another thing which isn't being mentioned here, is these Ni polr types have nearly no ability to see through lies. If you give them an excuse which involves multiple elements, they won't be able to discriminate whether it's likely to have happened or not. They'll get caught up in the 'well, it's possible'. As long as the excuse could have possibly happened, then they seem to just accept it and dismiss the whole deal.
Last edited by crazedrat; 11-30-2008 at 05:31 PM.
This is totally not true for my ESE. That would drive me bonkers. My husband is really good at listening to other points of view. I even changed his mind on the death penalty stance. That was years ago. But anyway, he's good at admitting when he's wrong, and not just about political ideas. He says he's sorry more than I do (for things like not being as patient as he should be with the kids or for emotionally over-reacting to things).
IEI-Fe 4w3
In defence of those who have a Ni-PoLR, I once had my wallet stolen by an INFp.
this depends on how emotionally invested he is in the topic at hand. And when converting his views on things, it's not an immediate thing. It definitely takes awhile for him to come to a new conclusion. I didn't mean to imply that he would immediately agree with me. The change of his opinion on the death penalty was over the course of months, maybe a year.
IEI-Fe 4w3
Usually Ti & Fe will mean the ESFj does listen to what you have to say, but due to their polr they just don't get it; and they seem to be primarily interested in preserving the stability of the situation at all times, to the point where this cripples their ability to face things.
ESTj, on the other hand, is more like a volcanic dumbass, and the ESTj in my life I'm thinking of reminds me of the guy you describe; I can even see the Steve Irwin analogy; I put it up to a repressed longing for Ne & Fi. It's like he's putting on a show to win peoples emotions.
While there's quite a few things that make me cringe a bit when reading this thread, I can't deny many of them are true. I will however single this one out as considerably wrong, at least to me. While it may seem like you're able to lie to an ESFJ, I'd bet that much of the time... in the back of their mind, all they're thinking is: "Ugh, this guy is so full of shit."
I would say I'm pretty hard for a person to lie to, in real life of course... Whether we bring it up that we think you're full of shit is another story, much of the time I just let things roll off as if whatever lie I was just told really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Unless I feel like being a prick, then I'll call their lie and see a funny lookingfollowed by a
.
I've actually noticed this with both N-PoLR types when confronted with their PoLR function. With ESFjs, they focus on trying to preserve the Fe dynamic and the harmony that's there so they may phobicly comply with whatever the supervisor is saying or try to divert attention away from it. With ESTjs, particularly Te ESTjs, if you throw a lot of Ni at them they react like this rat trying to run through this maze, bumping into walls, turning around, running in circles, because it seems that without their Si groundwork, their Te will just be like one of those wind up cars that you wind up and it just runs aimlessly - hitting and bouncing off whatever it will. A car without a driver. Heh that's probably why they're afraid of it. Throwing a lot of Ni at a ESTj is like telling them to drive but without the road. And lol I don't know why I've been more amused at ESTjs handling Ni than I have ESFjs handling it.
With Ne PoLR:
I notice a similar phobic response to Ne particularly with Ti ISTjs. You try to show them the different external manifestations in the world or the "shortcuts" to take to accomplish a certain external goal and they give the deer in the headlights look too. They'd rather stick to the way that they know gets them where they need to get. I may explain to them how the shortcut I came up with makes things easier or how it accomplishes the same essential purpose as their more drawn out method. They'll listen, seemingly understand the logic of it, but then continue to do things in their same way as if I hadn't said anything.
I will admit that my Si-ESFj mom is a retard when it comes to estimating timing. Usually it has to do with how long it will take her to arrive at a place via car. When I conceptualize it, I take into account the general effects of traffic, and sort of get a rough visual of the path. She seems to just randomly choose a number and stick by it, to linearize the process or something.
I actually agree, lol. It seems that if you cloak whatever you're saying in good enough literal terms, that they won't be able to peer underneath to what's really going on. While the Fe of ESFj's may be adept at reading peoples' emotions, it's bound to the external context of Si, making it very ostensibly based. And ESTjs...lol don't even go there.Another thing which isn't being mentioned here, is these Ni polr types have nearly no ability to see through lies. If you give them an excuse which involves multiple elements, they won't be able to discriminate whether it's likely to have happened or not. They'll get caught up in the 'well, it's possible'. As long as the excuse could have possibly happened, then they seem to just accept it and dismiss the whole deal.
I think this is right. They will listen to you so much as the FeSi harmony isn't perturbed. And sometimes they'll get in this ******y mode where they actually think they're integrating what you're saying into that dynamic -- more so the Si normative function -- when in reality you're just trying to get the point through their head. And then they'll pretend to get it, and offer some facile Ne correlation, and get all happy that people are getting along. They just do not want the Si continuum upset by Se "splashes" (picture a placid pond), nor do they want anything "out of nowhere" being introduced.Usually Ti & Fe will mean the ESFj does listen to what you have to say, but due to their polr they just don't get it; and they seem to be primarily interested in preserving the stability of the situation at all times, to the point where this cripples their ability to face things.
4w3-5w6-8w7
True, strrrng.
And these types are also terrible at getting away with lies. My ESTj-Te brother in law has gotten caught 4 or 5 times cheating on my ENFj sister. But what makes this of interest, is all times he's gotten caught because he didn't delete text messages off his cellphone. He never learns his lesson. Basically she notices he has his phone on vibrate, and next time it rings she acts like she'll get the phone for him to be helpful. He spazzes out with some transparent on the fly cover for why she doesn't need to get the phone for him. Later she looks at his emails. I wouldn't be surprised if it happened again soon
Last edited by crazedrat; 12-01-2008 at 12:04 AM.
Please try to keep the discussion to talking about Ni PoLR and not try to use that thread as an excuse to talk about all the reasons you may have for not liking certain things about ESxJ's. I don't really see where shitty cheesecake or not liking someone's cherished traditions really have anything to do with people's Ni PoLR's.
The thing about traditions is actually a common trait, and has to do with the normative Si function.Please try to keep the discussion to talking about Ni PoLR and not try to use that thread as an excuse to talk about all the reasons you may have for not liking certain things about ESxJ's. I don't really see where shitty cheesecake or not liking someone's cherished traditions really have anything to do with people's Ni PoLR's.
4w3-5w6-8w7
ISFps are very into tradition also, yes. But it's not due to Ni-PoLR.
IEI-Fe 4w3
hee hee funny image.
My ESE hates mushrooms and he loves to jump on the trampoline with the kids.
IEI-Fe 4w3
We just needed the background on her so you could say some negative things about the ESFJ you know? I didn't mention those parts of what you wrote because they were irrelevant to what I was pointing out. What I was saying, was that you were saying something negative about this person that's not even relevant to the actual thread topic. Which, As I pointed out, just makes this thread look like a reason to talk shit about Ni PoLR types. My response was just trying to keep that from happening.
I actually don't care if it's the truth or not, actually, I'm sure it is...lol. I was merely pointing out what I said I was pointing out... I never said anything here wasn't the truth, well, other than my original post about being lied to earlier in the thread.
What a perfect example of what people in this thread have been saying the whole time.
4w3-5w6-8w7
That's why I'm here.
If cracka is an example of Ni PoLR than I'm all for it.
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