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Thread: LSE-ESTjs and their demonstrative Se

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    Default LSE-ESTjs and their demonstrative Se

    How does it look?

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    Frequently interrupt other people in mid-sentence while they're talking to tell them their own opinion, for instance.

    Disposition to impatience and strive to take control.
    Last edited by WinnieW; 03-15-2020 at 09:39 PM.

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    I know LSE men who like to play competitive sports with a lot of physical contact like rugby and soccer/football. I also know some that like to smoke sigarettes and pop pils before they go out. But the best example off demon. Se and polr Ni i can give is when one guy said to me "Alright playtime is over, lets start working!" eventhough the prework was not finished. (Once we did start he basically carried the team).

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    I have an LSE teacher, and she definitely shows some Fi here and there, like adoring us and calling us her little children, but my christ does she dominate the room. She speaks, and everyoen listens. The bell rings, but if she needs to talks ome more, she would immediately stand up and say "no leaves yet" and then once she's finished speaking, show would say "now you're dismissed." Nonetheless, a very lovely teacher since she showers us with "you can do it!" and "I think you have potential."

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    Usually very guarding of their own rights and other's.
    Measuring you right now

    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type

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    Demonstrative Se equals compensatory machismo...it can look very similar to Se-ego block for people that have no street smarts or actual experience in the guts of life.

    Gordon Ramsay (LSE-Te 3w2 so/sp) is a great example of Se demonstrative. He's really a pussy but talks like a tough guy. He'll talk shit to a certain point. Once shit hits the fan, though, he's out...he's the guy trying to break everything up.

    The Se-demonstrative style of oneupsmanship lacks a willingness to play the brutal power card in order to prevail. It's not their go-to. SLEs are constantly scratching their itch for the jugular even if it means permanently closing a door...burning a bridge. LSEs (unless all is lost) typically leaves an open door. Thus, they don't display that itch for the jugular, unless, as I said they have hit rock bottom.

    Tiffany Pollard (LSE-Te 6w7 so/sx) from Flavor of Love is another good example of Se Demonstrative. A lot of Tiffany's schtick is just Se-Demonstrative like a Gordon Ramsay or Beth Chapman. When shit hits the fan and the time to throw down is imminent their tone turns more deferential as they try to wiggle their way out of the line of fire.

    I've seen it a hundred times.

    Of course these gigantic pussies can pass for Se-ego among people who are wet behind the ears. Wet behind the ears typically means people who lack street smarts. For people that lack street smarts Se-demonstrative is indistinguishable from Se-lead and yes, even sometimes Se-creative lol!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    Demonstrative Se equals compensatory machismo...it can look very similar to Se-ego block for people that have no street smarts or actual experience in the guts of life.

    Gordon Ramsay (LSE-Te 3w2 so/sp) is a great example of Se demonstrative. He's really a pussy but talks like a tough guy. He'll talk shit to a certain point. Once shit hits the fan, though, he's out...he's the guy trying to break everything up.

    The Se-demonstrative style of oneupsmanship lacks a willingness to play the brutal power card in order to prevail. It's not their go-to. SLEs are constantly scratching their itch for the jugular even if it means permanently closing a door...burning a bridge. LSEs (unless all is lost) typically leaves an open door. Thus, they don't display that itch for the jugular, unless, as I said they have hit rock bottom.

    Tiffany Pollard (LSE-Te 6w7 so/sx) from Flavor of Love is another good example of Se Demonstrative. A lot of Tiffany's schtick is just Se-Demonstrative like a Gordon Ramsay or Beth Chapman. When shit hits the fan and the time to throw down is imminent their tone turns more deferential as they try to wiggle their way out of the line of fire.

    I've seen it a hundred times.

    Of course these gigantic pussies can pass for Se-ego among people who are wet behind the ears. Wet behind the ears typically means people who lack street smarts. For people that lack street smarts Se-demonstrative is indistinguishable from Se-lead and yes, even sometimes Se-creative lol!
    Do you ever say anything positive? I'm just wondering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by COOL AND MANLY View Post
    Do you ever say anything positive? I'm just wondering.
    Sle is a negativist after all

    Everything he writes is a cope for his ego it's pretty interesting really

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingslayer View Post
    Sle is a negativist after all

    Everything he writes is a cope for his ego it's pretty interesting really
    They are?
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Idk my husband will shop and buy me a pretty dress every so often. He’s into fashion and has great style. I don’t care for clothes. He knows what he likes and dislikes in food. He can stick up for himself and is no pushover, opposite of me.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    Idk my husband will shop and buy me a pretty dress every so often. He’s into fashion and has great style. I don’t care for clothes. He knows what he likes and dislikes in food. He can stick up for himself and is no pushover, opposite of me.
    I can see LSEs wanting their mates to dress certain ways and being overly particular about their food; many seem to like possessions, and or to be seen as important and well cared for. I can see EIIs as not overly fussy about style or food but I haven't met one who was a true pushover although they may sometimes feign weakness for effect. Between a self-righteous EII and an angry LSE, I'd give even odds.......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Demo se types are by far the pushiest in my experience . They use too much se to get their way it's not as smooth as se bases

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    Idk my husband will shop and buy me a pretty dress every so often. He’s into fashion and has great style. I don’t care for clothes. He knows what he likes and dislikes in food. He can stick up for himself and is no pushover, opposite of me.
    It must be so nice to just admit that all willy nilly .

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    Frequently interrupt other people in mid-sentence while they're talking to tell them their own opinion, for instance.

    Disposition to impatience and strive to take control.
    Yes this. It's really fucking annoying

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    They say insensitive jokes and statements. Can cheat, drink beeeeeeeer and play football. Also interrupt ppl during arguments or discussions. Try to solve or take in their own hands every problem (even if not their issue).
    Last edited by Tommy; 04-03-2020 at 12:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
    They say insensitive jokes and statements. Can cheat, drink bear and play football. Also interrupt ppl during arguments or discussions. Try to solve or take in their own hands every problem (even if not their issue).
    I especially liked the bolded one. Generates interesting images in my head.
    Measuring you right now

    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type

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    Quote Originally Posted by COVID 007 View Post
    I especially liked the bolded one. Generates interesting images in my head.
    Sorry, grammar police.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
    Sorry, grammar police.
    No, I really liked how you accidentally symbolized power there in various plausible forms. It has lots of potential.
    Measuring you right now

    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type

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    they use Se as a way to enforce the goals of their leading function, Te, which means theyre stubborn and try to get their way because they think theyre right

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    Quote Originally Posted by sullutac View Post
    they use Se as a way to enforce the goals of their leading function, Te, which means theyre stubborn and try to get their way because they think theyre right
    Right fighters as I call em..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    Gordon Ramsay (LSE-Te 3w2 so/sp) is a great example of Se demonstrative. He's really a pussy but talks like a tough guy. He'll talk shit to a certain point. Once shit hits the fan, though, he's out
    yes.. exactly the ESE's I know.
    i tend to take what people say more seriously, so it took me a while to realize that they don't actually follow through what they say, in this sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I can see LSEs wanting their mates to dress certain ways and being overly particular about their food; many seem to like possessions, and or to be seen as important and well cared for. I can see EIIs as not overly fussy about style or food but I haven't met one who was a true pushover although they may sometimes feign weakness for effect. Between a self-righteous EII and an angry LSE, I'd give even odds.......

    a.k.a. I/O
    You do know how EIIs are unable to say no or resist people if their ethics doesn't flag an issue. And some people can just ignore the ethical protests and then the EII cannot do anything at all.

    The ones I've known are very readily obedient and will do everything they are told to do even when that is not in their own interest whatsoever, they'll do it all just because they think the other person has authority. This easily turns into tolerating too much abuse too.

    Also, some of them don't seem to be able to discipline even their own kids and believe unconventional theories about how to raise children by allowing them to do everything, yes literally EVERYTHING.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    You do know how EIIs are unable to say no or resist people if their ethics doesn't flag an issue. And some people can just ignore the ethical protests and then the EII cannot do anything at all.

    The ones I've known are very readily obedient and will do everything they are told to do even when that is not in their own interest whatsoever, they'll do it all just because they think the other person has authority. This easily turns into tolerating too much abuse too.

    Also, some of them don't seem to be able to discipline even their own kids and believe unconventional theories about how to raise children by allowing them to do everything, yes literally EVERYTHING.
    Well, I've met EIIs who were selfish and said "no" more than anything else, and certainly wouldn't let themselves be subjugated; one ran the family like a strict religious order. Altruism has more to do with how one is raised and influenced, and has little to do with type although type can facilitate it given the right set of circumstances. Another possible factor is that all types can be cowed or made obedient or turned into a servant; look at some of the types around the American president....

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Joe Exotic (Aka "the Tiger King" -- something about Se-demonstrative appeals to a fusion between Royalty & Tigers) is another good example of what I described and documented in the below quotes -- which is blatantly obvious)...Joe Exotic a classic LSE-Te is really a pussy but talks like a tough guy. once shit hit the fan, like when that guy Jeff discovered he was giving himself advances in Jeff's name (or something), all that demonstrative-Se just drained away and the Tiger King's entire demeanor turned more belly-showing deferential as he tried to wiggle his way out of the line of fire:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    Demonstrative Se equals compensatory machismo...it can look very similar to Se-ego block for people that have no street smarts or actual experience in the guts of life.

    Gordon Ramsay (LSE-Te 3w2 so/sp) is a great example of Se demonstrative. He's really a pussy but talks like a tough guy. He'll talk shit to a certain point. Once shit hits the fan, though, he's out...he's the guy trying to break everything up.

    The Se-demonstrative style of oneupsmanship lacks a willingness to play the brutal power card in order to prevail. It's not their go-to. SLEs are constantly scratching their itch for the jugular even if it means permanently closing a door...burning a bridge. LSEs (unless all is lost) typically leaves an open door. Thus, they don't display that itch for the jugular, unless, as I said they have hit rock bottom.

    Tiffany Pollard (LSE-Te 6w7 so/sx) from Flavor of Love is another good example of Se Demonstrative. A lot of Tiffany's schtick is just Se-Demonstrative like a Gordon Ramsay or Beth Chapman. When shit hits the fan and the time to throw down is imminent their tone turns more deferential as they try to wiggle their way out of the line of fire.

    I've seen it a hundred times.

    Of course these gigantic pussies can pass for Se-ego among people who are wet behind the ears. Wet behind the ears typically means people who lack street smarts. For people that lack street smarts Se-demonstrative is indistinguishable from Se-lead and yes, even sometimes Se-creative lol!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    Joe Exotic (Aka "the Tiger King" -- something about Se-demonstrative appeals to a fusion between Royalty & Tigers) is another good example of what I described and documented in the below quotes -- which is blatantly obvious)...Joe Exotic a classic LSE-Te is really a pussy but talks like a tough guy. once shit hit the fan, like when that guy Jeff discovered he was giving himself advances in Jeff's name (or something), all that demonstrative-Se just drained away and the Tiger King's entire demeanor turned more belly-showing deferential as he tried to wiggle his way out of the line of fire:
    I would disagree to all of this 'Se demonsrative is just for show' stuff.
    A lot of se demonstrative people i know are able to use Pressure very well and are aware of the dominance of power. When shtf LSE can have trouble because it's a not very stress resistant type. For ESE i think it is different due to being result type and having a good way of thinking for crisis situations.
    But still, a lot of SE Demonstrative Types are not capable of violence, at least my anecdotal evidence agrees with this.

    I think it is due to not valuing SE and not hanging around SE valuing people nor thinking of SE as an acceptable solution of problems and attacks on the quadra complexes.
    This leads to a lot of SE demo types simply not learning violence,because they usually are very conservative types anyways and are not pulled to typical Beta quadra Gang Hooligan or Skinhead culture stuff or other Gamma types of violent environments or people.
    In Alpha quadra you kill by word, in Delta quadra you enslave the people, in both an violent response is something that will be sanctioned on a democratic and individual level (alpha) or by the collective (delta).

    I do think that the Se demonstrative tough guy act usually does not really work as they would like it to in the other two quaras. Surrounded by Alphas or Deltas who usually dislike violence here means being the big fish in the small pond while your tough guy act cultivated over years is not very usuefull when it clashes with someone who values Ni enough to see through it and Se enough to have fostered skills and/or the ability and quadra complex responses to lift this stuff on the level of escalation you have been implying without ever feeling drawn to it.

    So i somewhat agree with your point, but i think it is more about the cultivation of these kind of abilities and not on how capable you are of cultivating.
    There are good fighters of all types, i even think LSE would be a great TIM for marterial arts, but for most of them there is simply no draw to se stuff and no reason in learning it besides the socially accepted rites in their 'home' environments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Well, I've met EIIs who were selfish and said "no" more than anything else, and certainly wouldn't let themselves be subjugated; one ran the family like a strict religious order. Altruism has more to do with how one is raised and influenced, and has little to do with type although type can facilitate it given the right set of circumstances. Another possible factor is that all types can be cowed or made obedient or turned into a servant; look at some of the types around the American president....

    a.k.a. I/O
    I've not met EIIs like that so far. How did these EIIs achieve that about not getting subjugated when some people really just don't give a rats ass about the moralising? I'm actually curious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    I've not met EIIs like that so far. How did these EIIs achieve that about not getting subjugated when some people really just don't give a rats ass about the moralising? I'm actually curious.
    I don't know much of their history. The confident ones seemed to be intelligent and educated well beyond a high-school level, and raised to be independent. Now, I've met educated idiots of all types. Ij-types need to be given a lot of space to grow properly and if they're not given it, they seem to get smothered rather easily. Eps also need significant space but they don't seem to be as easily smothered having a more rebellious nature - but they too can get beaten down by circumstance - like trees that can grow straight and tall, or stunted and twisted depending on their environments......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
    Sorry, grammar police.
    I believe you, but Ne sparks some mental visualization. I must take care not to confuse the words "floor" and "flour".
    But walking on flour is less annoying than eating bread baked with the ingredient floor.

    ...and who don't heard about the well known drinks Grizzly juice and Kodiac shake?... but Kodiac shake sounds unhealty to me. I better leave that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
    They say insensitive jokes and statements. Can cheat, drink beeeeeeeer and play football. Also interrupt ppl during arguments or discussions. Try to solve or take in their own hands every problem (even if not their issue).
    Cheat, as in in relationships? I thought they were subconsciously wired for monogamy

    C-EII-INFj 4w3 Sx/sp 479

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shytan View Post
    Cheat, as in in relationships? I thought they were subconsciously wired for monogamy
    I think they are wired to be attracted to Fi. No Fi, no monogamy. Probably if they aren't allowed to go fishing every weekend, no monogamy, either.

    What I've seen is LSE's in "bad" marriages (bad from their point of view) getting divorced and then starting a "new" relationship that same month. With a woman they just happen to know. So they were prepared for a smooth transition. Three cases. The other three LSE's I know are not divorced.

    LSE's definitely don't like to be single and without that female companionship for any time whatsoever. I'm not sure if that's because they need Fi (probably not the main reason) or because they think that being single in society will make them look bad (more likely).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Well, I've met EIIs who were selfish and said "no" more than anything else, and certainly wouldn't let themselves be subjugated; one ran the family like a strict religious order. Altruism has more to do with how one is raised and influenced, and has little to do with type although type can facilitate it given the right set of circumstances. Another possible factor is that all types can be cowed or made obedient or turned into a servant; look at some of the types around the American president....
    Those EIIs of yours I would type as ESI with the ability to not get totally subjugated and with enough ability for strict discipline. What I talked about has nothing to do with altruism or selfishness or amount of times saying "no". I was speaking of obedience and deference to authority. And about lack of assertiveness in the face of abuse & lack of discipline in terms of how EIIs try to have discipline for themselves sure, but they can't enforce it for others like ESIs can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    ........... I was speaking of obedience and deference to authority. And about lack of assertiveness in the face of abuse & lack of discipline in terms of how EIIs try to have discipline for themselves sure, but they can't enforce it for others like ESIs can.
    All Ijs tend to defer to authorities, regulations and or any other sources of stability - I've seen copies of the four types in enforcement roles. The ESIs that I've worked with tended to threaten by playing psychological games where EIIs seemed to become outright bullies and could tolerate confrontation a lot better than ESIs. EIIs also tended to be closet rebels who occasionally get on soapboxes and let it all hang out while more than a few ESIs seemed to be secretive (perhaps a little more unsure or insecure?), but both types were known to blow gaskets and overreact in some confrontations. In office politics, I'd bet on EIIs because they tended to focus on the big picture and cover all their bases whereas many ESIs often didn't look beyond their noses.....

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    All Ijs tend to defer to authorities, regulations and or any other sources of stability - I've seen copies of the four types in enforcement roles. The ESIs that I've worked with tended to threaten by playing psychological games where EIIs seemed to become outright bullies and could tolerate confrontation a lot better than ESIs. EIIs also tended to be closet rebels who occasionally get on soapboxes and let it all hang out while more than a few ESIs seemed to be secretive (perhaps a little more unsure or insecure?), but both types were known to blow gaskets and overreact in some confrontations. In office politics, I'd bet on EIIs because they tended to focus on the big picture and cover all their bases whereas many ESIs often didn't look beyond their noses.....
    As for your first sentence. What do Ejs do instead?

    About the EIIs and ESIs you are talking of.... I see ESIs as more realistic and knowing when they can win in a confrontation and when they can't plus they have related material concerns that the EIIs just don't. (Also this hardly equates to ESIs not looking beyond their noses, to me.) I read an article on here, where the EII tried to tell someone else at the workplace what to do while he/she was barely in the position to do so, he/she was just morally indignant enough to talk like that, and ofc the other person really easily rebuffed the EII and didn't follow his/her "order". That's how I experience EIIs in real life too. Unless the other person is open enough to the moralistic tone of theirs to be willing enough to follow it, it doesn't work. I've certainly seen that work on *some* people, though, sure. Also I've seen EIIs break down under enough forceful pressure in a way I've never seen ESI do it. EIIs wanting some things for themselves and their ability to feel envy and selfish needs and such - yes I've seen EIIs have that and I never debated this part - doesn't equate to them being able to do open confrontations effectively. As for the office politics parts, are you sure that wasn't IEIs? They do that sortof thing totally. I don't see how EII would be concerned with finding advantages for themselves like that.

    Ps. Yes as you can see, I've spent some time watching Fi types lol (not just them but yeah).

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    @grumpyvic81 Ejs tend to use authorities and regulations as their base of power to maintain control but they're rather flexible as to what rules applies to them. They don't normally "defer" to a higher authority unless there'd be severe consequences. Ijs are more comfortable with someone else in charge unless that person is incompetent; Ejs seem to always be looking for opportunities to wrest control no matter how competent the boss - desiring (not necessarily scheming) to be the alpha and usually very opportunistic.

    Well I've known more than a few ESIs who were absolutely crushed by the burden of their work environments - some quitting and others needing professional help. EIIs didn't seem to get as bothered by the small stuff but they could succumb to pressure when they realized they weren't up to the task; ESIs seemed to take longer to realize and by that time were in too deep. Because EIIs tended to be more idealistic than ESIs, they seemed more accustomed to not having things go their way......

    a.k.a. I/O
    Last edited by Rebelondeck; 04-17-2020 at 02:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    @grumpyvic81 Ejs tend to use authorities and regulations as their base of power to maintain control but they're rather flexible as to what rules applies to them. They don't normally "defer" to a higher authority unless there'd be severe consequences. Ijs are more comfortable with someone else in charge unless that person is incompetent; Ejs seem to always be looking for opportunities to wrest control no matter how competent the boss - desiring (not necessarily scheming) to be the alpha and usually very opportunistic.

    Well I've known more than a few ESIs who were absolutely crushed by the burden of their work environments - some quitting and others needing professional help. EIIs didn't seem to get as bothered by the small stuff but they could succumb to pressure when they realized they weren't up to the task; ESIs seemed to take longer to realize and by that time were in too deep. Because EIIs tended to be more idealistic than ESIs, they seemed more accustomed to not having things go their way......
    Thanks for the answer on Ijs/Ejs. As for EIIs/ESIs, Ive known EIIs who were crushed by burdens like that. Quitting and all that. And in my eyes it was small stuff pretty much. So...... I don't think we type people in quite the same way. Apart from EIIs being more idealistic than ESIs...sure.

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    "demonstrative" is among worst names for this function. as being non-valued it's not what people like to use or demonstrate much. strong nonvalued functions are means of 2nd line

    Examples. LSE are rather stubborn to insist on what they think as best or true (Te related).
    They may show an anger and being prepared for physical agression when it's appropriate, but will prefer to do not attack first and do not harm seriously without good need. In my experience there were cases when inadequate physical threat against me from people having N types was stopped (they became polite on forever) when they noticed my emotional response (while I said no bad words or direct threats, but they understood what I may do in the case they'll attack).
    Last edited by Sol; 04-18-2020 at 05:50 PM.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    .... Ive known EIIs who were crushed by burdens like that. Quitting and all that......
    EIIs will sometimes quit or back away immediately when they feel that they won't be up to the task for whatever reason (often in a diplomatic way); they tend to take the paths of minimum risk of personal failure but often failure is only imagined. ESIs will sometimes jump into the deep end not realizing that they can't swim - their panic often starts when they spot the first torpedo. EIIs will panic when pushed into the deep end (they usually won't do it of their own accord) and both will equally panic when they realize that they're failing, which seems to often impact their mental and physical health. I'm sure there are crushed EIIs; but I've only known a dozen or so ESIs, who went on sick leave because they couldn't take the heat. Now, I've met several ESIs who were as hard as nails on the inside; I haven't met an EII like that - although I'm sure there are - perhaps they don't show their cards as much to colleagues and management.....

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    EIIs will sometimes quit or back away immediately when they feel that they won't be up to the task for whatever reason (often in a diplomatic way); they tend to take the paths of minimum risk of personal failure but often failure is only imagined. ESIs will sometimes jump into the deep end not realizing that they can't swim - their panic often starts when they spot the first torpedo. EIIs will panic when pushed into the deep end (they usually won't do it of their own accord) and both will equally panic when they realize that they're failing, which seems to often impact their mental and physical health. I'm sure there are crushed EIIs; but I've only known a dozen or so ESIs, who went on sick leave because they couldn't take the heat. Now, I've met several ESIs who were as hard as nails on the inside; I haven't met an EII like that - although I'm sure there are - perhaps they don't show their cards as much to colleagues and management.....
    "EIIs will sometimes quit or back away immediately when they feel that they won't be up to the task for whatever reason (often in a diplomatic way); they tend to take the paths of minimum risk of personal failure but often failure is only imagined"

    Ive seen that in ESI too and in other people too. Not type related.

    "ESIs will sometimes jump into the deep end not realizing that they can't swim"

    lol Ive never seen an ESI do that, the unhealthy ESIs would rather stand in the corner than risk the unknown (dat Ne PoLR with low Te) and the healthy ones just seem to judge the risk alright

    "Now, I've met several ESIs who were as hard as nails on the inside; I haven't met an EII like that"

    This is the only part where our observations match

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    Man I wish I video taped this or something, it was such a good side by side example of valued Se and demonstrative Se.

    My LSE friend takes me to this indoor rock climbing place to go climb. He gets talking to some random other climber he looks SLE, the both decide to climb right next to each other. I'm on the ground watching them and all I see is my LSE friend, whose super lanky and tall, climb the wall like some calm ass tree frog, just stretching his long legs over impossible distances and going at a steady pace. I see the SLE next to him grunting loud, exerting all kinds of umph and nnnng! To get up the wall, leaping up some rocks, he trips a little and then pushes even harder. They both clear the wall but the difference was stark lol. Man it would have been a perfect gif showing the differences of 4D Se in the types.

    While me I was done after clearing 2 walls and lost all grip lol.

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