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Thread: Decline of religion

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    Default Decline of religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    This question should really be addressed in a thread split.
    Ah, maybe. I apologize; I tend to go off-topic here. Since you're complaining, I'll make a new thread.

    However, to give my opinion, the church originally served as a repository for tribal laws and told stories about why those laws were important to the tribe. That function is now held by the government. The advantage that the church had was that it had a longer time horizon than the latest king and so could endorse rules which had a proven history behind them.

    The church also provided a rudimentary explanation for why the sun rose and the rains came. It was an early form of science, although empiricism was under-appreciated for a very long time.

    It also served as a meeting place for people to get together on safe ground to listen to each other and to work out their differences in the presence of an impartial judge who followed civilized rules of engagement. That function is now held by governments and the courts and by your personal psychiatrist.
    This might have been related to the earliest forms of organized religion, but that explanation still seems a bit simplistic to me. In any case, much of this wasn't the case for Christianity (or Islam, or later religions I can think of). Christianity became popular in the ancient Mediterranean world, which had a long recorded history, including history of laws, and the beginnings of the modern legal system, particularly in the Roman Empire (to be clear, I know less about other "legal systems" of the ancient world, but the case could probably be made that, say, Egypt or Greece had judicial systems which more or less attempted to do what you suggested). What certainly isn't true is that anyone converted to Christianity because it provided a proto-scientific explanation for why the sun rose. Beyond the larger sense that "the sun rises because God ordained it so", there's no "early science" at all in Christianity. Even the book of Genesis wasn't believed by Jews 2,000 years ago to be a factual account of the world, and Christians in general didn't tend to believe it either; if you were to look at early Christian commentaries on Genesis, I don't think you'd find a single one which would actually express a belief that it was factual.

    Some Christians today insist that the events of Genesis literally happened because on some level they've come to accept empiricism as the only valid means of understanding the world, and feel they have to defend the Bible in that context. But this is an entirely modern phenomenon. This is painting with a large brush, but, say, a Greek in the second century might not believe in the classical gods, but he wouldn't consider the story of Deucalion and Pyrrha making people out of stones, because it seemed implausible, "bullshit" (as a modern atheist might put it), or irrelevant to his life, because it was a part of his cultural context and history. Or a Greek might believe that Zeus existed, but that particular story might stretch his belief; or so on, but would still enjoy listening to a telling of that myth, completely independently of believing it to provide a believable explanation of the world.

    Finally the church was often a source of entertainment, and that function is now performed by the entertainment industry and by the internet.

    What functions does the church do better than anyone else? My personal opinion is that it brings people together in real life in an arena which is safe and accepting to all, and it promotes respectful discourse, both of which are under-valued by the average person but are slowly being better appreciated as people age. It is really impossible at this point to name an adequate substitute for face-to-face interactions.
    Sure, that's a pretty important function of a church. But that's not why people begin to attend one, and the proof is that, as you've said, there is no adequate substitute for this function, yet churches are dwindling.

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    Hard for me to believe religion has served a positive purpose for at least the last 2,000 years. Seems like it's mostly been an opportunity for a few sociopaths to make a living.

    Also, churches as respectful, safe, and accepting? I don't know where you're from but it's not where I'm from. Unitarian universalists maybe but other than that....

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    Hmm, your rebuttal to Adam's notes is a bit simplistic too. Things to consider:

    - Ancient societies (Egyptian, Babylonian, Greek, Roman, Indu, etc) revolved around cult. Laws and sciences too. Think of Plato, the father of political philosophy, believer. Think of Aristotle, the father of "science", believer. It doesn't matter if they believed in politheism, all their actions stemmed from the gods.

    - The ideas of a society shape the individuals too. Even if the Greeks had already hypothesized a Earth that spins around the sun, or the Indus had already grasped some quantum ideas, it doesn't change the belief that these realities were emanations of the gods. It's still a valid argument today.

    - Cult was so extreme back in time that it had the power to decide upon the life or death of the individuals, just think about the uncountable laws that prohibited the veneration of other divinities. Cult wasn't something one could have much of a saying about.

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    Praise the Lord, begone thots and heathens!

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    Even if veneration of the old gods was to disappear, it would be necessary to invent something to take its place.

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    I'm not sure why I'm a tagged here, my post in the other thread isn't about religion on the decline, it was about my specific church struggling, with a mega church next door to it. And it doesn't attract young people because it's not "with the times", there's no youth group or youth pastor, no modern music, it has an old school pastor that just teaches the bible, while the church next door has got all that and a bag of chips.

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    Dumbass religion is on the decline because the world smartened the fuck up that shit in the bible is biologically impossible. Age of Rationalism led Nietzsche and shit to be like fuck god is dead, because any real intellectual of the age of rationalism has no fckin excuses to still believe in God...in other words, we all know the fuck it could not have happened shit could not have gone down like bible says, if I fucks somebody up in a streetfight and they gots broken head, busted nose, no teeth and they come to you afterwards and been like yeah I beat the fuck out k4m, and you sees the face and you sees mine you going to believe motherfucker, if you does you are dumb. same shit, people got science they look around they see no virgin births no human resurrections they is educated from early age to know that shit doen' thappen except in fiction. Well, what the fuck do you think conclusion they is going to come to. Obvious DUH Religion is fckin' myth. like quadra values is myth. like tritype is garbage, its multiple personality disorder and ruined personality cafe. tritype is take one adjective from each type and combine them. that's literally the fauvres all smoke and no fire descritpions for tritype. i'm sick this tritype shit like i'm sick of religion. both dumb as fck.

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    Death to the sand god!

    Hail to Father Cain!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    I'm not sure why I'm a tagged here...
    because of forumite's poor reading comprehension.

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    Church/Families are dwindling because those things aren't really valued anymore.

    I remember back in the 90s,

    Having to knock on my friend's door in the ghetto neighborhood, having to ask his grandma if he could play.

    Fast forward to 1998-1999, 28 k modems, whoa INTERNET.

    Mid 2000s HIGH SPEED INTERNET/FLIP PHONES

    2010s SMART PHONES

    Mid 2010s GENDER WAR, TINDER

    etc etc

    These traditional structures/boundaries have broken down and it's more of a "hunger games" approach to life.

    Now we value individualism, independence, and finding your own happiness/meaning.

    And as mentioned,

    There's a cultural divide;

    The older generation can't reach the younger generation so there's this gap in communication.

    I'm torn being in the middle seeing the struggle between the two.
    Last edited by onfireee; 03-25-2020 at 12:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Sure, that's a pretty important function of a church. But that's not why people begin to attend one, and the proof is that, as you've said, there is no adequate substitute for this function, yet churches are dwindling.

    @Lord Pixel , @ooo
    Sociological research in western countries show that although membership of institutionalized religious organizations is in decline, people still have religeous attitudes in the same number as ever. More people believe in something, and model their own private style of believing, shopping around from all kinds of sources. As such, it tends more towards a more spiritual approach to believing, as other facets of live (social, economical etc etc) is taken care of elsewhere in the social sphere.

    This is not necessarily a bad development, if it weren't for people's narcissistic tendency to gaze at their own navel
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Well naturally in the age of information faith dies down quite a bit.

    Also people, especially a lot of young adults- are tired of hateful bigotry and close minded-ness cloaked with self righteousness. Even if homosexuality really is a sin to stay away from. Are they really moral and wise or are they just being a hateful troglodyte etc. It's God's job to sternly judge me and punish me forever for being a homosexual demon- it's your job to love and forgive me anyway. So many Christians find it a little too tempting to play God. But remember that the one sin God hates more than homosexuality - the only one- are those that try to be Him.

    And maybe... sin feels good and doing good feels boring and stupid. That is why Sin is so hard to beat. It's so tempting and feels good in the moment, damn the consequences. Like selflessly creating an innocent life to cherish with a woman would of course technically be more moral and virtuous - but I selfishly want a hot guy instead. I can't deny or fight against the truth that homosexuality, when taken in a vacuum- is more fucked up and immoral than heterosexuality. It's just obvious. I think people and 'SJWs' or whatever try to convince others of the rightfulness of homosexuality too much when... it clearly is a sin. But again. God is God and I am me and you are you.

    It's not about sexual pleasure but about making life. It's not about what I want, it's about what is good for the world. That is very Super-ego stuff. Most of us would rather just say 'eh fuck that, I need to make my own self happy first.' etc. There is a kind of balance we strive for tho- to help the moral objective world and to save the innocent heterosexual babies but also get what our sinful homosexual ego wants. Because there is Heaven and there is Hell and then there is our Earth, which balances the narcissism of those two forces.

    And being mean and dismissive and overly stern/harsh and sucking the fun out of the room when people are just sinners and following heir natural sinful nature seems kind of backwards to me. I mean on one hand you say you're doing it for their own good and just doing what God wants you to do - otoh you are being an overly abusive person. We do the most horrible of evil thinking we are the most good eh? And very well damaging their self-esteem in the name of 'doing good.' The biggest virtue to me is laughter, but its also been said only the Devil finds everything funny.

    The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, a group of drag queen nuns always have a funny saying 'Go and sin some more!'

    It's time for me to dress up like Sister Shy Whore and spread the Good News I believe. /hugs @aixelsyd

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    Religion declining? Ok boomer

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    Religion is fckin' stupid. religion is used to control the masses.

    The age of rationalism disproved everything in the bible. That's hwy Nietzxche God is Dead. That's what the fck it meant, that because of science and rationalism, anybody with any shred of intellectual honesty knew that the Bible is full of shit, the middle ages is over.

    Science and biology has shown that Christiantiy's core tenets rests upon turns upon BIOLOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITIES. Let me say this shit again. I don't give a fuck. I'm going to say it again and again. I say it all the time but we got to say it many times because still dumbasses out there.

    THE VIRGIN BIRTH IS A BIOLOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITY. HUMAN RESURRECTION IS A BIOLOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITY. THE EARTH AS 7000 YEARS OLD IS A BIOLOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITY. THE CRATION OF A WOMAN FROM THE RIB OF A MAN IS A BIOLOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITY. THE BIBLE IS NOT EVIDENCE FOR GOD.

    JESUS WAS THE GREATEST CONMAN IN HISTORY. Peter paul luke and that other dude were all dupes. Jim JOnes had followers too who calleed him God. 800 of whatever it is that committed suicide on Jones' word. the fckin' owner of the washington post Korean dude has masses of people who believe he's the messiah. it happens all around the world.

    The masses are fckin stupid. The age of rationalism.... God is Dead. Nietzsche said it. In other word,s if you have any type of intellectual faculty, theres no way you can find that the bible still holds up after science and rationalism pretty much demoslished that shit.

    Nobody is listening. Prayer ain't going to do shit for you. Christian scientists die every time they try to pray their medical illnes away. Them snake handlers got bit and died because they though their faith in God protected them from the poison of the snake. Stop beleiving in superstitoous mgiacl entities tooth fairy santa claus god, fuck up. There is no Evidence, no proof is nothing more than a stack of assumptions, a pyramid of inferences that rests on no evidence, other than a fictitious fckin BOOK1!!!
    Last edited by Kill4Me; 03-25-2020 at 03:22 PM.

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    The bible was just a way to help the simple make sense of the universal principels around them, in turn controlling them while doing so.

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    The decline of religion is the decline of sophistication, beauty and humanity.
    Last edited by leckysupport; 03-26-2020 at 11:01 AM.
    ἀταραξία

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Sure, that's a pretty important function of a church. But that's not why people begin to attend one, and the proof is that, as you've said, there is no adequate substitute for this function, yet churches are dwindling.
    Well, that would be what you would expect if what the Abrahamic religions and perhaps others say is true, i.e. "God is love," that is, the relationships between people who care for one another are at least a part of God Him/Her/Itself. If the state doesn't mandate church attendance and people who don't really want to go drop the generational habit of going, churches will only consist of people who want to be there, and what's left will be the essence of what they should be. Of course, I think common interest groups can serve the same function, but that only works if people who share a common interest think they're doing God's will at least behind closed doors anyways, otherwise it's just people clamoring for status. To reference something my cello teacher once said, originally music was people worshiping God and then it became people trying to earn money, and to quote the Bible, the love of money is the root of all evil. I don't see how it's possible for people to function who don't at least believe the Universe or something is God even if they also hate the word "God" because their parents made them go to a terrible church or just bored them growing up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    Religion is fckin' stupid. religion is used to control the masses.

    The age of rationalism disproved everything in the bible. That's hwy Nietzxche God is Dead. That's what the fck it meant, that because of science and rationalism, anybody with any shred of intellectual honesty knew that the Bible is full of shit, the middle ages is over.

    Science and biology has shown that Christiantiy's core tenets rests upon turns upon BIOLOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITIES. Let me say this shit again. I don't give a fuck. I'm going to say it again and again. I say it all the time but we got to say it many times because still dumbasses out there.

    THE VIRGIN BIRTH IS A BIOLOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITY. HUMAN RESURRECTION IS A BIOLOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITY. THE EARTH AS 7000 YEARS OLD IS A BIOLOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITY. THE CRATION OF A WOMAN FROM THE RIB OF A MAN IS A BIOLOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITY. THE BIBLE IS NOT EVIDENCE FOR GOD.

    JESUS WAS THE GREATEST CONMAN IN HISTORY. Peter paul luke and that other dude were all dupes. Jim JOnes had followers too who calleed him God. 800 of whatever it is that committed suicide on Jones' word. the fckin' owner of the washington post Korean dude has masses of people who believe he's the messiah. it happens all around the world.

    The masses are fckin stupid. The age of rationalism.... God is Dead. Nietzsche said it. In other word,s if you have any type of intellectual faculty, theres no way you can find that the bible still holds up after science and rationalism pretty much demoslished that shit.

    Nobody is listening. Prayer ain't going to do shit for you. Christian scientists die every time they try to pray their medical illnes away. Them snake handlers got bit and died because they though their faith in God protected them from the poison of the snake. Stop beleiving in superstitoous mgiacl entities tooth fairy santa claus god, fuck up. There is no Evidence, no proof is nothing more than a stack of assumptions, a pyramid of inferences that rests on no evidence, other than a fictitious fckin BOOK1!!!
    While I don't know how exactly I feel about religious identities like Christianity, parthenogenesis happens in some organisms so I'm not sure I'd rule it out as having happened in at least one human mutant, and human resurrection happens all the time in the form of resuscitation. I believe prayer works from the perspective of eternalism, or realism towards non-present moments in time, as in, if you pray now, the fact that you've prayed now indirectly affects things which can have some efficiacy but is more like a material cause than an efficient cause in Aristotle's four causes, and of course many people who pray are completely delusional and praying isn't an unconditonal genie wish (but are even genie wishes unconditional?)

    Also, Nietzsche liked Jesus despite not liking Christianity, probably because he had religion shoved down his throat like many of us have growing up, and perhaps a lot of people saying they're God/a god are right. What is a god, anyways? I think a god is an ontological primary, and Christianity and Abrahamic religions are simply saying the ontological primary all others rest on is people having love towards one another. Otherwise, you're making your ontological primary either nothing itself, which is also a thing, or another specific thing such as power, money, the sky, the earth, intellect, or something else which might let you down in some cases, while love, as a relationship which encompasses such things, can never lead to such a problem. In a way love is like a toolbox and all the other things are like tools that are in the toolbox. When you have a hammer everything looks like a nail but when you have a hammer and everything else too then you can do your job.

    Also, books are amazing and the Bible is shelved with nonfiction under the Dewey Decimal System even if some parts of it are clearly mythical, and additionally, the Bible is covered in any kind of "great literature" course that could possibly feature any part of it.

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    Traditional organised religion certainly gives the impression of being in decline, but it seems to be giving way to more idiosyncratic forms of spirituality and mysticism, as well as new age religion. The lure of anthropocentric ontology is too strong and, unless the human brain changes in some fundamental way, I don't believe that a purely materialist conception of the universe will ever belong to more than a minority.

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    religion declined because the age of rationalism showed that the core tenets of these religions were biologically impossible. i know the affinity that FiNe and NeFi has for religionz but people who persisting in advocating for virgin birth and human resurrection might as well be advocating that the earth is flat. it is as impossible that the earth is flat as it is impossible that a dead person can rise from the dead or for a virgin to give birth. the only explanation is that religion offers people some type of crutch. As a high-functioning psychopath, I do not really understand. Just accept the yummy fact that when you die everything about you dies and your bones rot away in the ground (unless you chooses cremationz or diez like the exploding ninja in Big Trouble Little China)

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    No matter the current mores, trends or cultural decline, religion will never die out as a whole. It lies in human nature.
    凸(`△´+)

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    religion is just boring and its also kinda dumb unless you consider it a coping mechanism against nihilism. People have just become disinterested imo. You'd have to go deep into Kant's ideas to discover a pure rational system of religion. See "The Kingdom of Ends" and even then you are making a leap of faith.

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    religions as irrational beliefs in something - stay. what is changed - in what people believe

    there is unconscious psyche. the access to its abbilities is possible by irrational beliefs
    religions are the resource to be used
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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