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Thread: Study group problem

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    Default Study group problem

    Person A wants to learn all there is to know about Latin. Person A is a LII. Person A wants to form a study group of three people to ensure he becomes a fluent Latin reader + writer.

    Which other two types of fellow, equally dedicated students should A choose to study together with?
    Socionics is not behaviorist!

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    LIIs tend to get along well with ILEs particularly well from what I’ve seen. People usually get along pretty well with quadra members in general just because they understand each other better.

    Two things, though. First, people who study and teach classical language in a high school or undergrad context are generally always Alphas or Deltas, so that cuts down your available types down by half. The exceptions are generally kids whose parents made them study it, the odd Beta NF who studies it because they think it’s prestigious to speak Latin or Greek, or people who learned them for practical reasons (for instance, I know an SEE archaeologist who can read classical Greek, some Mycenaean, and Egyptian hieroglyphs because that’s part of her job). As a rule, only Ne/Si valuers will really think it worthwhile or rewarding to spend thousands of hours to read texts written thousands of years ago that have probably already been translated into their native language.

    Secondly, and more importantly, studying language isn’t something I’m sure can be affected much by the Socionical types of the people you study with. Instead, focus on properly understanding the material and making sure everyone in the group also gets it. Explaining concepts to others helps your own comprehension immensely. Ultimately, understanding requires individual effort to understand, and group dynamics can’t really help or hurt you much. Just study with people you like.

    I’m assuming this is a real scenario and not some hypothetical situation, so I wish you good luck, and particularly better luck than I had. In my Latin 101 class, I tried to get a study group together, since I had talked with my classmates and knew most of the class was doing badly. I asked if people would be interested in a study group, but though the 20ish students mostly said a study group would be helpful, only one —an LSE — showed any interest in actually attending. (She was an A student; go figure.) The problem was that people doing badly were doing badly were doing badly because they weren’t willing to put in the necessary effort to do well, and certainly weren’t going to attend a study group, while the people who did well didn’t need a study group, and because they put similar effort in their other classes, didn’t have much free time to attend a study group. You might run across a similar problem once you try to get a group going.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    ... First, people who study and teach classical language in a high school or undergrad context are generally always Alphas or Deltas...
    I do not agree. Perhaps this is true in the US (I wouldn't know), but over here in Europe there are lots of Gammas who have mastered Latin and Greek, perhaps even more than people from other quadras. And it makes sense, because having mastered either or both languages can serve as a means to social distinction, and it is especially Gammas that thrive on this method as a way of making themselves socially relevant and get the upper hand. Over here in the Netherlands, If you go to a university classroom where humanities (e.g. history, cultural history, history of art, philology etc) are being taught, you will most likely see a heavy emphasis on Gamma students. Gammas are the most likely to accumulate cultural capital. By that I do not mean to say that people from other quadras do not acquire cultural knowledge (and they certainly do), it means that Gammas use cultural knowledge as a means of capital and turn it into a set of behaviors. That is not so much the case with Deltas and especially Alphas; these quadras are more likely to do it out of a certain kind of curiosity.

    But like I said, perhaps this applies more to the European context and is less valid for North America.
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    @consentingadult, that’s interesting. In the States, it’s very different, perhaps because we have a different outlook toward the humanities. Generally, they aren’t as socially valued here; I think the most common attitude toward them is that they’re more or less useless, and offered for students who aren’t smart enough to do well in the sciences. Philosophy gets a large number of ILIs, history also gets a trickle of them, Gamma SFs will often study English/Literature, and law schools are filled with ambitious people of all types, but otherwise the humanities are dominated by Alphas and Deltas, if you discount the arts.

    Your cultural capital theory is interesting, too. I don’t think it’s particularly respected here to have tried to become “distinct” by means of education — I’m not sure; I’ll try to think more about it. But I think that generally if someone were to take pride in their education they’d be mocked. “Education is meant as a means of getting a job, and what’s the big deal? Everyone nowadays has a college degree, and even if I don’t, you’re no smarter than me just because you have one — Joe Blow has a doctorate, and he’s an idiot!” is more or less the attitude. And it’s not a bad attitude for society to have; it keeps people from getting arrogant, and helps ensure that people who study the humanities (as they aren’t seen as helpful for getting a job) do so for more or less “pure” reasons, namely curiosity and genuine interest. But maybe it has to do with why Gammas often seem disinterested in them here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SocietyOTLittleFlower View Post
    Person A wants to learn all there is to know about Latin. Person A is a LII. Person A wants to form a study group of three people to ensure he becomes a fluent Latin reader + writer.

    Which other two types of fellow, equally dedicated students should A choose to study together with?
    ESE, LSE, LSI or other LIIs

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    LIIs wanting to form study groups seems rather odd. Are you sure of Person A's type?......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    LIIs wanting to form study groups seems rather odd. Are you sure of Person A's type?......

    a.k.a. I/O
    Self-typings are always open to revision and suggestions. @Aramas once said "you'll eventually learn your type if you hang around long enough," which means it might take some doubt from other users before a user truly knows his or her own type.

    Person A wants to form a study group because Person A realized that studying by his lonesone is illogical. Here's why:

    Imagine A is by himself studying Topic T of Latin Grammar. He has poured one hour of thinking and has invented some rules about T. A is just one point, but you need at least two points to form a line. So A needs B to also be on the same page imagining his or her own rules so they can see which ones are from the text and which ones are noise. Lastly, both A and B need C to test and teach these concepts in order to see if they're missing connections. So it takes at least three people to gain an ability, which is why a child needs three people (child, mother, and father) in order to learn his or her first language.
    Socionics is not behaviorist!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    @consentingadult, that’s interesting. In the States, it’s very different, perhaps because we have a different outlook toward the humanities. Generally, they aren’t as socially valued here; I think the most common attitude toward them is that they’re more or less useless, and offered for students who aren’t smart enough to do well in the sciences. Philosophy gets a large number of ILIs, history also gets a trickle of them, Gamma SFs will often study English/Literature, and law schools are filled with ambitious people of all types, but otherwise the humanities are dominated by Alphas and Deltas, if you discount the arts.

    Your cultural capital theory is interesting, too. I don’t think it’s particularly respected here to have tried to become “distinct” by means of education — I’m not sure; I’ll try to think more about it. But I think that generally if someone were to take pride in their education they’d be mocked. “Education is meant as a means of getting a job, and what’s the big deal? Everyone nowadays has a college degree, and even if I don’t, you’re no smarter than me just because you have one — Joe Blow has a doctorate, and he’s an idiot!” is more or less the attitude. And it’s not a bad attitude for society to have; it keeps people from getting arrogant, and helps ensure that people who study the humanities (as they aren’t seen as helpful for getting a job) do so for more or less “pure” reasons, namely curiosity and genuine interest. But maybe it has to do with why Gammas often seem disinterested in them here.
    Humanities dominated by alphas and deltas? That's an interesting perspective. I'd like to see a few more details on this...

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    I do not agree. Perhaps this is true in the US (I wouldn't know), but over here in Europe there are lots of Gammas who have mastered Latin and Greek, perhaps even more than people from other quadras. And it makes sense, because having mastered either or both languages can serve as a means to social distinction, and it is especially Gammas that thrive on this method as a way of making themselves socially relevant and get the upper hand. Over here in the Netherlands, If you go to a university classroom where humanities (e.g. history, cultural history, history of art, philology etc) are being taught, you will most likely see a heavy emphasis on Gamma students. Gammas are the most likely to accumulate cultural capital. By that I do not mean to say that people from other quadras do not acquire cultural knowledge (and they certainly do), it means that Gammas use cultural knowledge as a means of capital and turn it into a set of behaviors. That is not so much the case with Deltas and especially Alphas; these quadras are more likely to do it out of a certain kind of curiosity.

    But like I said, perhaps this applies more to the European context and is less valid for North America.
    I can kinda see this. Gammas using things as means to an end and alphas doing them just because they feel like it/are curious. On the other hand, I read a novel once by an author I think is ILI, and he seemed pro-aimless curiosity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Humanities dominated by alphas and deltas? That's an interesting perspective. I'd like to see a few more details on this...
    Well, it’s just my impression. And it may vary by uni, especially at elite schools.

    My guess is that it’s as simple as Alphas and Deltas liking to sit down and read, and Betas and Gammas having lives.
    As flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Well, it’s just my impression. And it may vary by uni, especially at elite schools.

    My guess is that it’s as simple as Alphas and Deltas liking to sit down and read, and Betas and Gammas having lives.
    I've known LIEs who read a lot. They also seem active in other ways though too. They are just really active people in general it seems like.

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