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Thread: Jack the Exploiter - LIE/ENTj

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    Default Jack the Exploiter - LIE/ENTj

    A thread to discuss the idea that Jack's (LIE's) are Exploiters, as per Stratiyevskaya's assertion.

    "Duality Relations ISFj and ENTj by Stratiyevskaya"

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...Stratiyevskaya

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    This made me think of the subconscious ways my Te- lead manifests.
    It is said to be unsustainable thirst for acquiring stuff.

    If you look at me being a Sx first you could call it that way. It manifests with me acquiring attraction.
    In most of my environments women crush a lot on me. In one of my old courses there was not a single women that did not have a crush on me for some time or at least found me attractive.
    I usually flirt with people i feel an attraction with and some of them fell in love with me in the process.
    Ni creative is a great tool to make people feel good, being a Sx first one and harmonizer gives you a good picture to project.
    Maybe you could call that exploitation, i don't even do that on purpose, i even avoided socializing with a group of women in near past because i know i don't want to marry any of them and they would only fall in love with me.

    But yes, maybe that is a way i exploit people. It's an Se hidden agenda and intensity thing for me probably. i genuily feel what i share with those women but in the end i know that i won't keep any of them. Still i usually make them fall for me, not even sure if i intend to do so. Maybe also a Victim thing, looking for their Se to pull through and not finding it.
    intimacy Maybe this is how i exploit people in my prime focus Sx, it runs automatically and i don't ever seem to have enough connection and people finding me attractive while showing interest in only a few.
    [Wow i really do like myself, but this wasn't even the intention of this post geniuly seemed like a connection when i started to write this.]
    ---------
    Also, i do think that what strati wrote was in a hypothetical situation and she focused on the subjective perspective of a specific esi in this situation, and did not mean the word exploiter as a generalization.

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    Rebelondeck's Avatar
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    Depends on the intended meaning of the word: exploiter. Humans tend to be opportunists and can be equally exploitive of one another and of the environment so the word is likely applicable to us all. Eps seem to have natural abilities to take advantage of something in a parasitic sense because they're often the first to notice an opportunity or opening. Ejs have natural abilities to bring things/people together and make things happen but that doesn't indicate a greater exploitive urge......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Looking at the title I first thought this was a salt post about Jack Oliver Aaron from WSS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    Looking at the title I first thought this was a salt post about Jack Oliver Aaron from WSS.
    Nope. That particular "Jack" never entered my mind, actually. This is really a thread inspired by some interactions I've had recently with some LIE's and ESI's, but I need more time to sort things out in my mind and I wanted to throw this out there in the meantime.

    Strat has been accused of being particularly harsh with her Duals (and everyone else, for that matter), but I've recently been trying to see things from the ESI perspective. I was struck in particular by a comment that an LIE friend of mine made, where he told me that his ESI GF had put him through grad school and then they both watched as a friend of theirs, who was also being supported by his GF, left her after he graduated. The ESI GF threatened to kill the LIE if he left her the way their friend left his GF.

    I have no idea what types the separated couple were, but the couples knew each other. Possibly LIE and ESI, possibly not. To me, letting a woman support you through school and then leaving her when you graduate is pretty low. I'd definitely call that exploitation, but again, I don't know their types.

    I was really curious about tales of exploitation by LIE's that other people may have to relate.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-29-2020 at 05:48 PM.

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    Wow, that's one of the more pessimistic duality descriptions I've read, and it's definitely not kind to LIEs.

    I don't know many LIEs IRL, so I can't verify how true this might be, but what Strat seems to say is that LIEs want to be free and act exploitatively to prevent themselves from feeling controlled. It actually reminds me of the ILE-SEI dynamic (the ILE doesn't want to be controlled/pinned down by the SEI; the SEI, like the ESI, creating a "cozy nest" to ensnare their dual, and so on), with a major difference being, I think, that ILEs seem more reluctant to actually hurt SEIs than LIEs apparently are to hurt ESIs.

    One of those interesting symmetries in Socionics -- the ILE is less harsh toward his emotionally sensitive dual; the emotionally strong ESI can withstand the harsher LIE.

    Not that this really means much, but it might be food for thought.
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    To operate with Te+Ne using subjective Ni path without Ti bindings does definitely sound like exploitation. Hah, hard to get around it.
    Measuring you right now

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    Jacks are totally exploiters. If Ni is about opportunity, and Te about getting shit done efficiently, LIEs would initiate contact with the world in a way that maximizes the utility of all the opportunities that present themselves. Most forms of Te lend themselves to "hacking," rather than trying to understand a universal meaning of the phenomenon in question. Hack, exploit, tomato, tomato. No type is a bad person, we can all be unhealthy, but when LIE is unhealthy, whoa... talk about lack of Fi and being a fake af shell-of-a-person ��

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    I'd say a healthy LIE would always be something of an opportunist but can use those powers for good. Being an exploiter isn't inevitable since character is separate from cognitive functions. Since you're seeking real life tales, it got me thinking about two LIE males I know. One is married to his dual ESI, and one is married to an EII.

    The dualized LIE is a great guy, probably 3w4. I think he's Sx first, and he treats his wife well. It's cute. I wouldn't describe him as exploitive at all (of her or in general), he's a team player and observant of others' needs. He works full time, is a landlord, and hands on with their daughter. One funny little story, though. They hosted a Japanese foreign exchange student last summer. I said, "Oh, that's cool of you." He was like "yeah, we've both wanted to visit Japan, so now we have a connection there in case we need a free place to stay." Haha.

    The LIE married to an EII is also a type 3, but So/Sx. She financially supported him to go to grad school first even though she wanted to go back to school, too, had just had a young daughter, and they were paying off his student loans. It's one of her biggest resentments against him. He barely made it through after three awful, stressful years, and stalled and stalled taking (and failing) multiple expensive certification tests for several years after grad school. He's tried multiple part time jobs that are sort of related to what he said he wanted to do at the beginning, but can't seem to make it work for a variety of reasons and blames it on everyone else in his environment (coworkers, bosses don't understand him, it's not what he likes to be doing, etc. etc.). He has a better job now and she only works part time, but I think those 7 years wore her down and drained a lot of the love.

    Is that exploitation? I don't know. He's definitely not interested in leaving her. She's acknowledged her role in the dysfunction and that it was a mistake to give up her dreams for someone else, but it's really hard for EIIs to apply pressure to anyone. She's so soft on him even when she thinks she's being tough.

    I also think the second LIE struggles with narcissism, while the first one does not. Not more than any other person, at least.

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    To be a Te lead means to exist in a perpetual state of evaluating something or someone's objective utility. I don't care if it's a toaster, a schedule, an app, an accountant or a Basketball player, I'm always asking "to what extent do you effectively fulfill your raison d'etre?" and "how can I best utilize this to some end?" 4D Ne allows LIEs to see an object's potential utility and the plethora of ways in which it can be applied. Yes, put together, this sounds rather cold, impersonal and exploitative, but we're hardwired to see the world through a utilitarian lens--that's simply the nature of the beast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    They hosted a Japanese foreign exchange student last summer. I said, "Oh, that's cool of you." He was like "yeah, we've both wanted to visit Japan, so now we have a connection there in case we need a free place to stay." Haha.
    lol Yes. I'm always scanning and mining for the valuable stone (read: utility and its potential for application) buried beneath one's soiled, sooty surface. And once they are sufficiently refined and polished, they become resplendent jewelry that can be readily worn or stashed away for the right occasion. Throughout my life, rarely have I taken the time to help someone realize their potential and not reaped a benefit in some way, whether I intended for that or not. The thing is, I can't help but be generous with this ability; I'm compelled to not only see potential and opportunity everywhere and in everyone, but to speak to it, and if possible, actualize it. It's not as intentionally predatory (in the sociopathic sense) as Strat would have you believe.

    LIEs don't require immediate returns on the resources (including energy and effort) we've invested because our Ni allows us to play the long term game. I've literally helped people "gratis," not seen or heard from them in years, only for them to reemerge at the opportune moment with some "payback" they felt obliged to offer because of my previously showcased "generosity of spirit." In that way, it's hard to feel like I ever truly lose or am down for the count, because I've cumulatively devoted so much time to spreading and sowing seeds that somehow blossom and produce fruits when I've needed them. That's the practical, realistic way that "karma" has manifested in my life. I see how LIEs might be great leaders and generals in the sense that we can go throughout life building an army of sorts, a network of people willing to follow us into war, whether out of appreciation/gratitude, debt or potential gain, and usually because we were able to open them up to their hidden potentialities (or of some endeavor) they might not have otherwise seen. It should go without saying that Ne PoLR types are probably the most susceptible to this approach, whether that be to their benefit or their demise.

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    The exploitive nature of LIEs (and EIEs for that matter), is often in their Se-mobilizing function. As I wrote on my blog, Se, in its unhealthy forms, is about the psychological concept of Entitlement, which is define by Young et.al. as:

    "The belief that one is superior to other people; entitled to special rights and privileges; or not bound by the rules of reciprocity that guide normal social interaction. Often involves insistence that one should be able to do or have whatever one wants, regardless of what is realistic, what others consider reasonable, or the cost to others; OR an exaggerated focus on superiority (e.g., being among the most successful, famous, wealthy) -- in order to achieve power or control (not primarily for attention or approval). Sometimes includes excessive competitiveness toward, or domination of, others: asserting one's power, forcing one's point of view, or controlling the behavior of others in line with one's own desires---without empathy or concern for others' needs or feelings."
    The problem with many LIEs, in the view of the people they work with, is that they take and do not give back. This is the first bolded part in the quote above. Their dealings with other people might not characterized by reciprocity. Now some LIEs might argue that they pay people their paycheck, but then they ignore that most people deliver beyond the call of duty, and are not properly compensated for that. Also, some of the worse LIEs do not even want to pay the agreed price.

    The more serious pathological LIEs go one step further, then we get to the second bolded part in the quote: their behavior gets outright sadistic and/or abusive.

    My SEI GF broke off a friendship with a n LIE woman recently for the second, and probably final final time. The woman, who lives on the other side of town, was sick for a couple of weeks, and my GF offered to do some groceries for her, since her neighbor didn't want to do it anymore. So my GF drove to the other side of town, got her groceries and then went to drop off the groceries. Then she and the woman discussed their hobby (making clothes) and went through pieces of cloth the woman had. My GF remarked about some particular cloth how nice it was, then the woman replied, do you want to have it, I'm not going to use it. My GF said okay. A bit later they went to settle the bill for the groceries, then the woman mentioned to settle the bill with the price of the cloth. My GF was under the impression that the cloth was a gift. So they negotiated a price of 3 euros (THREE shitty euros!!) for the cloth, when my GF took it on her to drive all the way to the other side of town (easily 4 euros in gasoline) and did her groceries. My GF was taken aback, but didn't assert herself. Later when she came home, she started feeling bad about it, also understood why this woman is constantly driving other people away: because she does not give back when being given something. I was no at all surprised my GF decided to break off the friendship, it was in the stars.

    In business dealings, my alarm bells usually start ringing pretty fast when dealing with LIEs. Only a few are of a reliable nature. Some even have the ff-ing nerve to ask for your input and contributions while making clear from the start that they are going to spend their money elsewhere (a place most likely a lot cheaper). Some even start putting pressure on you on your rate not even having discussed the nature of the project. In that sense it's better dealing with their ESI duals: they will give you a call if you forget to send them an invoice timely ;-)
    The future of Socionics:
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    The exploitive nature of LIEs (and EIEs for that matter), is often in their Se-mobilizing function. As I wrote on my blog, Se, in its unhealthy forms, is about the psychological concept of Entitlement, which is define by Young et.al. as:



    The problem with many LIEs, in the view of the people they work with, is that they take and do not give back. This is the first bolded part in the quote above. Their dealings with other people might not characterized by reciprocity. Now some LIEs might argue that they pay people their paycheck, but then they ignore that most people deliver beyond the call of duty, and are not properly compensated for that. Also, some of the worse LIEs do not even want to pay the agreed price.

    The more serious pathological LIEs go one step further, then we get to the second bolded part in the quote: their behavior gets outright sadistic and/or abusive.

    My SEI GF broke off a friendship with a n LIE woman recently for the second, and probably final final time. The woman, who lives on the other side of town, was sick for a couple of weeks, and my GF offered to do some groceries for her, since her neighbor didn't want to do it anymore. So my GF drove to the other side of town, got her groceries and then went to drop off the groceries. Then she and the woman discussed their hobby (making clothes) and went through pieces of cloth the woman had. My GF remarked about some particular cloth how nice it was, then the woman replied, do you want to have it, I'm not going to use it. My GF said okay. A bit later they went to settle the bill for the groceries, then the woman mentioned to settle the bill with the price of the cloth. My GF was under the impression that the cloth was a gift. So they negotiated a price of 3 euros (THREE shitty euros!!) for the cloth, when my GF took it on her to drive all the way to the other side of town (easily 4 euros in gasoline) and did her groceries. My GF was taken aback, but didn't assert herself. Later when she came home, she started feeling bad about it, also understood why this woman is constantly driving other people away: because she does not give back when being given something. I was no at all surprised my GF decided to break off the friendship, it was in the stars.

    In business dealings, my alarm bells usually start ringing pretty fast when dealing with LIEs. Only a few are of a reliable nature. Some even have the ff-ing nerve to ask for your input and contributions while making clear from the start that they are going to spend their money elsewhere (a place most likely a lot cheaper). Some even start putting pressure on you on your rate not even having discussed the nature of the project. In that sense it's better dealing with their ESI duals: they will give you a call if you forget to send them an invoice timely ;-)
    In my experience, LIEs most often attempt to use persuasion and chicanery before using force, although the second is always an underlying option that they're quite willing to apply if they think it's necessary to meet their goals. They would rather butter you, that is, rather than beat you into submission. Perhaps forceful buttering is Se though.

    And yes, LIEs and certain other types always argue that people get their paychecks or that people willingly agreed to something. They just never tell you about the rock and hard place the person was forced between before they "willingly" agreed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    In my experience, LIEs most often attempt to use persuasion and chicanery before using force, although the second is always an underlying option that they're quite willing to apply if they think it's necessary to meet their goals. They would rather butter you, that is, rather than beat you into submission. Perhaps forceful buttering is Se though.

    And yes, LIEs and certain other types always argue that people get their paychecks or that people willingly agreed to something. They just never tell you about the rock and hard place the person was forced between before they "willingly" agreed.
    Lol. "I'll make him an offer he can't refuse."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    ...They just never tell you about the rock and hard place the person was forced between before they "willingly" agreed.
    True, but there are such things as culture and social norms. In the long run, LIEs who want to have it all their way run the risk of people turning their backs on them. Perhaps not a problem in the sphere of business, because there are always new people to exploit, but your personal life might get quite lonely in the end.

    In any case, Socionics has thought me how to deal with LIEs in business and personal life ;-)
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    True, but there are such things as culture and social norms. In the long run, LIEs who want to have it all their way run the risk of people turning their backs on them. Perhaps not a problem in the sphere of business, because there are always new people to exploit, but your personal life might get quite lonely in the end.

    In any case, Socionics has thought me how to deal with LIEs in business and personal life ;-)
    Dealing with them is simple. Just kill it with fire.

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    Obviously it depends on the person. There are good and bad people in every type. Everyone has a different balance. Generally speaking, LIE are good at getting their way, being a PITA if they know they can get away with it, and creating and keeping opportunities for themselves. This creates someone who can have a big negative impact if they are not morally attuned enough.

    Right now I’m dealing with getting tax return documentation from a previous LIE boss of mine who harassed me, and it’s a PITA. Basically have to threaten taking legal action to get him to move his ass.

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    @Adam Strange I'm of the mind that a 4D lead extroverted rational function and a 1D suggestive introverted rational function means that one will always be consciously acclimated towards adjusting/moving/ordering the outside world (including the tribe), at the expense of their own subjective judgments, or in other words, their selves, i.e. EXTjs not knowing how we truly feel or what we value and EXFjs not knowing what they really think and believe to be true with crystalline clarity and precision.

    Therefore, something in me wants to push back on the notion that LIEs are chiefly out for self gain and self enrichment--maybe it's just me, but something about that feels false. I believe that most of ours efforts stand to benefit A LOT of people; our impact having a wider breadth is inherent within the EJ temperament. I think that EJs sacrifice more of ourselves for the sake of the outer world, and one of the potential benefits is that we tend to reap higher reward, but again, that comes at the cost of "self." If anything, it's our duals (IJs) who tend to be most "self" oriented and self focused.

    If Gamma quadra is concerned with freedom and individualism, then LIEs actualize theoretical frameworks into tangible structures that not only allow for everyone to freely express [Fi] themselves as they see fit, i.e., artistry, but to spread and share those expressions, i.e., commercialism. Yes, TeNx is exploitative and opportunistic, but not simply for the LIE's sake, which is my overarching point; it's not as if LIEs are known to just hoard and sit on our resources like fucking Smaug the Dragon. Nah, we're all about seeking out new opportunities, investing and reinvesting, taking high risks with high rewards concerning endeavors that will ultimately result in a heavy impact on OTHERS, the tribe. Granted, it's possible for that impact to have negative consequences, but it's just as possible for the impact to be positive. I just reject the notion that there is something inherently insidious about our makeup; perspective matters, and folks like Strav and some of the other posters on this thread forget they have cognitive biases that jaundice their interpretations.
    Last edited by Alonzo; 02-27-2020 at 02:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingslayer View Post
    Dealing with them is simple. Just kill it with fire.
    I just make sure never to fly with Ryanair ;-)
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    True, but there are such things as culture and social norms. In the long run, LIEs who want to have it all their way run the risk of people turning their backs on them. Perhaps not a problem in the sphere of business, because there are always new people to exploit, but your personal life might get quite lonely in the end.

    In any case, Socionics has thought me how to deal with LIEs in business and personal life ;-)
    Do tell

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    Jack: The one who took Strat's savings to spend in his own.

    I think she was saving to print her socionics book for a long time when some Jack appeared to borrow it because yolo. She then wrote the last page of description with bitterness.
    Last edited by Tommy; 02-27-2020 at 11:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Do tell
    In general, I avoid dealing with them once I have recognized them. Which is quite easy, because their behaviors are obvious. But some can be persistent, and you deal with that by being blunt, not using lame, diplomatic excuses.

    In a photography course a fellow student, an older homosexual guy learned that I was a consultant in the computer business. Eager to invite to his place under the guise of PC issues, he informed about my rate. So I told him my rate, immediately followed by the remark that I didn't do that kind of work. So he tried other options, such as he coming to my "office" instead, looking for an opening, ignoring the clues I gave him. I just kept repeating that I didn't do PC support. Basically telling him "NO' again and again without giving a reason. Never give a reason, they will grab you by the balls of your reasons. Just say NO.

    If you have to deal with an LIE, never assume anything is a deal, always have everything in writing, make it a point to settle every little bit of extra work in written contractual form, or they will burden you with extra work for which they are never going to pay, because either you didn't tell them it was going to costs money or they assumed it was included in the already agreed price. And try to anticipate as much as you can the things that ARE NOT part of the contract, and mention these specifically. Bring these items as those things they themselves are (financially) responsible for. Which is always a good idea, even if your business contact is not an LIE.

    Another thing is that some of the worse LIEs will abuse your lack of means to take things to court. E.g. a client of mine sold his web site (that I build for him) to an LIE for 75000 euros. The LIE and his company explicitly agreed (in paper) to not audit the software, meaning they could not complain about its quality afterwards. Well, my client never got his money, with he argument that the software was badly written. This despite the contractual agreement, as my client didn't have the money to take things to court. The LIE knew, from the start, that my client was all to eager to get rid of this web site (since it wasn't doing well commercially).

    Mentioning this specific LIE: before acquiring the fore-mentioned web site, my client asked me to visit the new owner to explain about some of the technical details. The LIE called me, and started, in the phone call, to put all kinds of pressure on me, which made my alarm bells ring. Then I visited his web site, and saw that the company was incorporated in the Netherlands Antilles, instead of the Netherlands. And all of this openly, no companies in between to erase the tracks! Why would anyone have their business registered overseas in such an open fashion (i.e. it is not just to evade taxes). That was the second alarm bell, to which I decided I would not engage into a business relationship with him. Fast forward a couple of years later, when news started spreading in the business community that this guy left a mountain of unpaid bills. But of course, nothing was his fault, according to journalists who quoted him. Basically, the whole business was a scam to rob some money from investors, using suppliers in the process to put up a nice facade. Nevertheless, this guy is now persona non grata in the Dutch business world. You can fool some of the people all the time, or all people some of the time, but you can't fool all people all of the time.

    The basic reason why people fall for the complicated constructs of LIEs (or ILIs for that matter), is their own greed. So you best avoid LIEs by not being greedy. Greed makes you blind to what is there right in front of your face:



    Last but not least: not all LIEs are scammers, far from it, but even with healthy LIEs you need to make sure you have got your act together, or else you will be the victim of their very high or even unrelenting demands. Many of them of not dishonest out of intention, but out of a lack of ethics, which is explained by their FI-suggestive. Which is why they need to be complimented with ESIs.

    A very good book for all people interested in tricks of dishonest business men: Winning Through Intimidation by Robert J. Ringer. A quote from this book:

    "I really meant to cut off your hand at the wrist when you reached for your chips, even though I had assured you that was never my intention"
    Last edited by consentingadult; 02-28-2020 at 08:00 AM.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    Looking at the title I first thought this was a salt post about Jack Oliver Aaron from WSS.
    I love that guy

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    In general, I avoid dealing with them once I have recognized them. Which is quite easy, because their behaviors are obvious. But some can be persistent, and you deal with that by being blunt, not using lame, diplomatic excuses.

    In a photography course a fellow student, an older homosexual guy learned that I was a consultant in the computer business. Eager to invite to his place under the guise of PC issues, he informed about my rate. So I told him my rate, immediately followed by the remark that I didn't do that kind of work. So he tried other options, such as he coming to my "office" instead, looking for an opening, ignoring the clues I gave him. I just kept repeating that I didn't do PC support. Basically telling him "NO' again and again without giving a reason. Never give a reason, they will grab you by the balls of your reasons. Just say NO.

    If you have to deal with an LIE, never assume anything is a deal, always have everything in writing, make it a point to settle every little bit of extra work in written contractual form, or they will burden you with extra work for which they are never going to pay, because either you didn't tell them it was going to costs money or they assumed it was included in the already agreed price. And try to anticipate as much as you can the things that ARE NOT part of the contract, and mention these specifically. Bring these items as those things they themselves are (financially) responsible for. Which is always a good idea, even if your business contact is not an LIE.

    Another thing is that some of the worse LIEs will abuse your lack of means to take things to court. E.g. a client of mine sold his web site (that I build for him) to an LIE for 75000 euros. The LIE and his company explicitly agreed (in paper) to not audit the software, meaning they could not complain about its quality afterwards. Well, my client never got his money, with he argument that the software was badly written. This despite the contractual agreement, as my client didn't have the money to take things to court. The LIE knew, from the start, that my client was all to eager to get rid of this web site (since it wasn't doing well commercially).

    Mentioning this specific LIE: before acquiring the fore-mentioned web site, my client asked me to visit the new owner to explain about some of the technical details. The LIE called me, and started, in the phone call, to put all kinds of pressure on me, which made my alarm bells ring. Then I visited his web site, and saw that the company was incorporated in the Netherlands Antilles, instead of the Netherlands. And all of this openly, no companies in between to erase the tracks! Why would anyone have their business registered overseas in such an open fashion (i.e. it is not just to evade taxes). That was the second alarm bell, to which I decided I would not engage into a business relationship with him. Fast forward a couple of years later, when news started spreading in the business community that this guy left a mountain of unpaid bills. But of course, nothing was his fault, according to journalists who quoted him. Basically, the whole business was a scam to rob some money from investors, using suppliers in the process to put up a nice facade. Nevertheless, this guy is now persona non grata in the Dutch business world. You can fool some of the people all the time, or all people some of the time, but you can't fool all people all of the time.

    The basic reason why people fall for the complicated constructs of LIEs (or ILIs for that matter), is their own greed. So you best avoid LIEs by not being greedy. Greed makes you blind to what is there right in front of your face:



    Last but not least: not all LIEs are scammers, far from it, but even with healthy LIEs you need to make sure you have got your act together, or else you will be the victim of their very high or even unrelenting demands. Many of them of not dishonest out of intention, but out of a lack of ethics, which is explained by their FI-suggestive. Which is why they need to be complimented with ESIs.

    A very good book for all people interested in tricks of dishonest business men: Winning Through Intimidation by Robert J. Ringer. A quote from this book:

    "I really meant to cut off your hand at the wrist when you reached for your chips, even though I had assured you that was never my intention"
    God this is so accurate with this scum bag LIE I know.. Good write up. They play on these stupid technicalities and peoples morals. So that's true that you don't explain anything to them, unless you want to have a circular conversation where they will find a new excuse for each reason you come up with. The trick is to just keep bluntly repeating what you're saying in a matter of fact way. Thankfully for me I am se base and fi polr, so I just pressure them and they usually cave and fuck off.

    A lot get nervous at the threat of physical force. mind you this all needs to be immediate pressuring, over the phone or computer means nothing to them. You gotta be in their face and then you can see their weak sensing and how insecure most are about it (Pathetic se ha).

    No offense to any LIE's here. This is pertaining to bad ones. I know an LIE guy who's a great dude and very friendly and doesn't screw anyone over.

    Makes sense ESI is their dual. Someone retardedly rigid in ethics who will forcefully push them onto the LIE with volitional pressuring, they're defenseless against a successful volitional pressurer who has a similar mentality towards things. Look at how Elizabeth Warren made Bloomberg look like a clown in the Vegas Debate. She's ESI He's LIE.
    Last edited by kingslayer; 02-28-2020 at 04:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingslayer View Post
    Makes sense ESI is their dual. Someone retardedly rigid in ethics who will forcefully push them onto the LIE with volitional pressuring, they're defenseless against a successful volitional pressurer who has a similar mentality towards things. Look at how Elizabeth Warren made Bloomberg look like a clown in the Vegas Debate. She's ESI He's LIE.
    That's the big difference between SxEs and LIEs: SxEs know how to dose Se, when an LIE uses Se, they too soon do too much of it. Now this might work on people who are in some way dependent on them, but otherwise it is a sign to stay away from them.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    That's the big difference between SxEs and LIEs: SxEs know how to dose Se, when an LIE uses Se, they too soon do too much of it. Now this might work on people who are in some way dependent on them, but otherwise it is a sign to stay away from them.
    SEEs usually dangle the carrot before they use the Se. And yes, I mean that in multiple ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    In general, I avoid dealing with them once I have recognized them. Which is quite easy, because their behaviors are obvious. But some can be persistent, and you deal with that by being blunt, not using lame, diplomatic excuses.
    ...

    The basic reason why people fall for the complicated constructs of LIEs (or ILIs for that matter), is their own greed. So you best avoid LIEs by not being greedy. Greed makes you blind to what is there right in front of your face
    Are you IEE? Theoretically, this only really makes sense with certain types of IR because there are different degrees of cognitive armament/disarmament depending on IR. For example, ESI may be able to recognize LIE's less desirable behaviors but evidently they don't have the natural cognitive defenses to always resist or else they wouldn't constantly have the resources wiped out, like Strat alleges. lol In part, they're vulnerable due to their valued 1D Te and unvalued 1D Ne; whereas IEEs have valued 2D Te and valued 4D Ne in addition to valued 3D Fi which places them in a better position to catch our bullshit. An SEI would see our bullshit, be turned off, and cross the street.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingslayer View Post
    God this is so accurate with this scum bag LIE I know.. Good write up. They play on these stupid technicalities and peoples morals. So that's true that you don't explain anything to them, unless you want to have a circular conversation where they will find a new excuse for each reason you come up with. The trick is to just keep bluntly repeating what you're saying in a matter of fact way. Thankfully for me I am se base and fi polr, so I just pressure them and they usually cave and fuck off.
    Yes to the emboldened red portion, but if you're actually dealing with LIEs, then the emboldened black portion won't be a full proof method because there is a degree of cognitive immunity due the nature of our IR. Relations of benefit are an asymmetrical IR > benefactor's creative function perceives the weakness of the beneficiary's suggestive function, and whereas the beneficiary's base function perceives the weakness of the benefactor's mobilizing function, the benefactor is less inclined to be moved/influenced/bullied on that aspect because it's not a prime concern; not that it's unimportant, but it's something the benefactor stubbornly exercises/acknowledges at their own discretion. If I'm relatively OK with being a lazy fat fuck, then admonishing me to go to the gym ain't really gonna do much. lol

    Moreover, just as an IEE discerns my hustle/what I'm about a mile away through the lens of their Fi, and establishes the necessary protections against Te onslaughts, that's exactly what my Ni (and its forward looking contingencies) does in the face of Se "pressure"--there's a good chance I've already planned several steps ahead in anticipation of that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    In general, I avoid dealing with them once I have recognized them. Which is quite easy, because their behaviors are obvious. But some can be persistent, and you deal with that by being blunt, not using lame, diplomatic excuses.

    In a photography course a fellow student, an older homosexual guy learned that I was a consultant in the computer business. Eager to invite to his place under the guise of PC issues, he informed about my rate. So I told him my rate, immediately followed by the remark that I didn't do that kind of work. So he tried other options, such as he coming to my "office" instead, looking for an opening, ignoring the clues I gave him. I just kept repeating that I didn't do PC support. Basically telling him "NO' again and again without giving a reason. Never give a reason, they will grab you by the balls of your reasons. Just say NO.

    If you have to deal with an LIE, never assume anything is a deal, always have everything in writing, make it a point to settle every little bit of extra work in written contractual form, or they will burden you with extra work for which they are never going to pay, because either you didn't tell them it was going to costs money or they assumed it was included in the already agreed price. And try to anticipate as much as you can the things that ARE NOT part of the contract, and mention these specifically. Bring these items as those things they themselves are (financially) responsible for. Which is always a good idea, even if your business contact is not an LIE.

    Another thing is that some of the worse LIEs will abuse your lack of means to take things to court. E.g. a client of mine sold his web site (that I build for him) to an LIE for 75000 euros. The LIE and his company explicitly agreed (in paper) to not audit the software, meaning they could not complain about its quality afterwards. Well, my client never got his money, with he argument that the software was badly written. This despite the contractual agreement, as my client didn't have the money to take things to court. The LIE knew, from the start, that my client was all to eager to get rid of this web site (since it wasn't doing well commercially).

    Mentioning this specific LIE: before acquiring the fore-mentioned web site, my client asked me to visit the new owner to explain about some of the technical details. The LIE called me, and started, in the phone call, to put all kinds of pressure on me, which made my alarm bells ring. Then I visited his web site, and saw that the company was incorporated in the Netherlands Antilles, instead of the Netherlands. And all of this openly, no companies in between to erase the tracks! Why would anyone have their business registered overseas in such an open fashion (i.e. it is not just to evade taxes). That was the second alarm bell, to which I decided I would not engage into a business relationship with him. Fast forward a couple of years later, when news started spreading in the business community that this guy left a mountain of unpaid bills. But of course, nothing was his fault, according to journalists who quoted him. Basically, the whole business was a scam to rob some money from investors, using suppliers in the process to put up a nice facade. Nevertheless, this guy is now persona non grata in the Dutch business world. You can fool some of the people all the time, or all people some of the time, but you can't fool all people all of the time.

    The basic reason why people fall for the complicated constructs of LIEs (or ILIs for that matter), is their own greed. So you best avoid LIEs by not being greedy. Greed makes you blind to what is there right in front of your face:



    Last but not least: not all LIEs are scammers, far from it, but even with healthy LIEs you need to make sure you have got your act together, or else you will be the victim of their very high or even unrelenting demands. Many of them of not dishonest out of intention, but out of a lack of ethics, which is explained by their FI-suggestive. Which is why they need to be complimented with ESIs.

    A very good book for all people interested in tricks of dishonest business men: Winning Through Intimidation by Robert J. Ringer. A quote from this book:

    "I really meant to cut off your hand at the wrist when you reached for your chips, even though I had assured you that was never my intention"
    I once lost over $50k in a business deal with a guy whom I knew was untrustworthy, but I thought I had things under control. Wrong. I didn't realize that he was completely willing to bankrupt his business to avoid paying me. I always had a hard time typing him, partly because he was so obviously a crook, but in retrospect, I think he was LIE.

    Strangely enough, he's not one of the two people I've met in my life whom I've wanted to kill. I hit a bump in the road and kept going, while he's burning every bridge there is. He's wrecking his life without my help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post
    Are you IEE? Theoretically, this only really makes sense with certain types of IR because there are different degrees of cognitive armament/disarmament depending on IR. For example, ESI may be able to recognize LIE's less desirable behaviors but evidently they don't have the natural cognitive defenses to always resist or else they wouldn't constantly have the resources wiped out, like Strat alleges. lol In part, they're vulnerable due to their valued 1D Te and unvalued 1D Ne; whereas IEEs have valued 2D Te and valued 4D Ne in addition to valued 3D Fi which places them in a better position to catch our bullshit. An SEI would see our bullshit, be turned off, and cross the street.



    Yes to the emboldened red portion, but if you're actually dealing with LIEs, then the emboldened black portion won't be a full proof method because there is a degree of cognitive immunity due the nature of our IR. Relations of benefit are an asymmetrical IR > benefactor's creative function perceives the weakness of the beneficiary's suggestive function, and whereas the beneficiary's base function perceives the weakness of the benefactor's mobilizing function, the benefactor is less inclined to be moved/influenced/bullied on that aspect because it's not a prime concern; not that it's unimportant, but it's something the benefactor stubbornly exercises/acknowledges at their own discretion. If I'm relatively OK with being a lazy fat fuck, then admonishing me to go to the gym ain't really gonna do much. lol

    Moreover, just as an IEE discerns my hustle/what I'm about a mile away through the lens of their Fi, and establishes the necessary protections against Te onslaughts, that's exactly what my Ni (and its forward looking contingencies) does in the face of Se "pressure"--there's a good chance I've already planned several steps ahead in anticipation of that.
    I'm well aware of the itr dynamic between SLE and LIE. However I have been dualized for a long time and am ti sub along with many years of abuse by my LIE dad so I personally find them pretty predictable as well. My dad will usually cave when I resort to physical force, you gotta just position the confrontation right and catch them off guard, play a sheep, let them think they're pulling your string then BOOM. They'll usually resort to playing the victim in that instance being so blind sided, which does nothing for me. I don't care about looking like a dick to a bigger dick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingslayer View Post
    A lot get nervous at the threat of physical force. mind you this all needs to be immediate pressuring, over the phone or computer means nothing to them. You gotta be in their face and then you can see their weak sensing and how insecure most are about it (Pathetic se ha).
    And don't mistake weak Se for an inability to successfully beat dat ass. lol One of the problems with weak Se is an inability to properly discern how much kinetic pressure/force/power is necessary to impact an object/move it through space. The mobilizing function is a wonky one; it can be used too little or too much. And particularly in cases of immediate danger, matters of life or death, etc..., do not underestimate an EXNjs ability to turn all the way up, and if anything, go TOO far. I'm rather aware of my weak Se, which is why my mentality is to utterly annihilate the enemy so that they can never come back. If you're going to get the jump on LIE, there needs an unorthodox, heavy, relentless onslaught. And be properly prepared for the 10 other SLE goons we hired for back up; it's a very John McClane Vs. Hans Gruber kinda deal. lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post
    And don't mistake weak Se for an inability to successfully beat dat ass. lol One of the problems with weak Se is an inability to properly discern how much kinetic pressure/force/power is necessary to impact an object/move it through space. The mobilizing function is a wonky one; it can be used too little or too much. And particularly in cases of immediate danger, matters of life or death, etc..., do not underestimate an EXNjs ability to turn all the way up, and if anything, go TOO far. I'm rather aware of my weak Se, which is why my mentality is to utterly annihilate the enemy so that they can never come back. If you're going to get the jump on LIE, there needs an unorthodox, heavy, relentless onslaught. And be properly prepared for the 10 other SLE goons we hired for back up; it's a very John McClane Vs. Hans Gruber kinda deal. lol
    Of course not, that's not what I mean by physical pressuring. I'm not gonna fist fight someone at work right? Especially an LIE who will jump the first chance to sue you if you do so. they simply can't react quick enough to physical dominance over them in the instinctual sense. you do it enough to anyone, they become intimidated. SLE is the general for a reason

    The best fighter I know is an EIE. He can probably beat me in 1 v 1. but I can still pressure him into doing what I want most times as long as I let him feel a sense of control over the group

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    A long time ago, when I was drinking a lot, I got into several fistfights. I lost as many as I won.

    When you are drunk, you can't feel much and you can get blood all over everything before you know it.

    *EDIT*
    I'm not happy about getting into fist fights. I feel kind of ashamed and stupid when I look back on that.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-28-2020 at 06:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post
    ...Te onslaughts...
    This is the core of the problems with LIEs, not in the least for themselves. Their Te, in this respect, is not only about efficiency, but also about effectiveness. It's the ultimate approach to goal-directness, not just in the general of Socionics sense, but also in a sociological sense, as explained by one of Max Weber types of rationality, Practical Rationality: "People who practice practical rationality accept given realities and merely calculate the most expedient ways of dealing with the difficulties that they present" (Ritzer, Classical Sociolocal Theory, 2008, p. 248). Thus, an LIE envisions a goal and calculates the most expedient way towards that goal. One can imagine what happens if setting the goals and the ways to that goal is severed from ethical input (i.e. the consequences for other people, animals, the environment etc.etc.). Moral considerations are not automatically part of the LIEs attitude, although there is often no malicious intention, it's a blind spot. In fact, they reason that if the law allows it, it should be okay. And the next step is to lobby for changing (in their favor) or abolishing laws, because if the law is the obstruction, then getting the law out of the way is also acceptable, the law is merely a reality that can be changed. With their moral blind spot they do not see that the law and laws (Ti, or formal institutions as sociology calls them) are usually derived from social norms (Fe and Fi, or informal institutions). It is this severing of the informal and the formal that is the cause of LIEs going wrong, or society transforming towards neo-liberalism.

    Now let us make clear that each and every Socionics type has attitudes that can do harm. Take, for example, EIIs with their, imho, often naive ideas about human nature, seeing, e.g., only the negative effects of restriction of migration for immigrants or refugees (a tunnel vision focus on the emotional pain of the immigrants) and not seeing the negative effects of large scale immigration on society at large. EIIs, with the tendency towards self-sacrafice, expect the rest of us to self-sacrifice as well. In this sense, all of us are a potential danger or problem if we are not balanced by the qualities of our duals and other types in the socion.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingslayer View Post
    I'm not gonna fist fight someone at work right?
    Actually, I know a chef from a large conference center that has been verbal abusive towards me at several occasions, of which I suspect he is LIE (this guy had a reputation for being verbally abusive). I had already made it a point with the management over there that if this behavior didn't stop, I would not go there anymore. So they talked to him, he behaved for a little while, then one day started again, and I let that organization and the agency I work for know that it was my last day over there. That was 2014.

    Recently my agency inquired if I am still not available to that organization. I said (and I have said it before) that if I were to go and this chef would show one sign of bad attitude towards me, I would grab a metal food container and beat the shit out of him, and that this was a promise. And I would: if nothing else works, then I will use physical violence in order to set clear boundaries. Some people behaviors are caused by them assuming that people usually do not resort to violence. In that sense I am like the eagle in the Great Seal of the US: an olive branch in one claw, arrows in the other, facing in the direction of the olive branch but not afraid to use the arrows if people are immune to reason, and a handful of people have learned what that means ;-) But obviously I'm not going to allow other people to put me into a situation where I might have to resort to violence. Working there is not worth such problems.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingslayer View Post
    I'm well aware of the itr dynamic between SLE and LIE. However I have been dualized for a long time and am ti sub along with many years of abuse by my LIE dad so I personally find them pretty predictable as well. My dad will usually cave when I resort to physical force, you gotta just position the confrontation right and catch them off guard, play a sheep, let them think they're pulling your string then BOOM. They'll usually resort to playing the victim in that instance being so blind sided, which does nothing for me. I don't care about looking like a dick to a bigger dick.
    FACTS. My father was an LIE dickhead, as well, so I get it. And he had been kicked around by his LSI and SLE dickhead father and brother. I spent a lot of my youth in a very violent, strong Se valuing society and I probably have a mild PTSD, which is why my antennae immediately go up when high D Se types start talking about applying "pressure." lol Tangentially, this makes me think of epigenetic trauma, the notion that traumatic experiences can leave a chemical mark on one's genes (that might, for example, alter how genes manage the predominance of certain hormones), which might then be passed down from generation to generation, kind of like an inbuilt survival kit for your progeny.

    Interestingly enough, Gulenko, in comparing his DCNH system with Helen Fisher's hormonal typology, posited a correlation between Dominant [Te, Se, Fe] & Testosterone, Creative [Ne, Fe, Se] & Dopamine, Normalizing [Ti, Fi, Si] & Serotonin, and Harmonizing [Ni, Fi, Si] & Estrogen. All of these theories are circumstantial af, but it's interesting to ponder the possible connections and correlations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingslayer View Post
    I'm well aware of the itr dynamic between SLE and LIE. However I have been dualized for a long time and am ti sub along with many years of abuse by my LIE dad so I personally find them pretty predictable as well. My dad will usually cave when I resort to physical force, you gotta just position the confrontation right and catch them off guard, play a sheep, let them think they're pulling your string then BOOM. They'll usually resort to playing the victim in that instance being so blind sided, which does nothing for me. I don't care about looking like a dick to a bigger dick.
    Yes, this is the only thing that’s worked for me with the former employer I mentioned as well. Play nice so they get close to you again, expose them and observe them trying to manipulate and put you down by them playing victim while blatantly and obviously ignoring their own sins which have just been exposed, and then drop the ultimatum.

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    I was talking to a male ESI friend of mine, who has faithfully but sometimes begrudgingly worked in the shadow of an LIE for twenty years, and I asked him if he thought that people of my type (he knows that his boss and I are the same "type") are exploiters and swindlers.

    His reaction was remarkable. He got this big, incredulous grin on his face and then started laughing. Now, I've known this guy for a long time and I've never seen him laugh like that.

    When he settled down, he said, "Present company excluded." Which I thought was rather nice of him, but I said, "No, probably me, too."

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    That's the big difference between SxEs and LIEs: SxEs know how to dose Se, when an LIE uses Se, they too soon do too much of it. Now this might work on people who are in some way dependent on them, but otherwise it is a sign to stay away from them.
    When they do it to an se base (they usually dont) it's an act of war

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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    i think there is a difference between personal life and work, i don't think i am especially exploitative in my personal life (but also not self-sacrificing...i think the most exploitative types are Se dom) but in business well everyone is out for his own gain, often if you don't strike first you're gonna look like a fool, business world is anyway full of Te and Se dom types so basically exploitation is the basis of private business.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  39. #39
    a two horned unicorn renegade COVID 007's Avatar
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    It is true that Se creatives tend to take their [subjective] duties [a bit too] seriously.
    Measuring you right now

    Winning is for losers

  40. #40
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    Jacks are explorers. What's another name for the events of an explorer's explorations? His exploits.
    Socionics is not behaviorist!

    "This is the bizarre thing about being a superhero — you've even got to save the bad guys." -- Captain Planet.

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