A thread to discuss the idea that Jack's (LIE's) are Exploiters, as per Stratiyevskaya's assertion.
"Duality Relations ISFj and ENTj by Stratiyevskaya"
A thread to discuss the idea that Jack's (LIE's) are Exploiters, as per Stratiyevskaya's assertion.
"Duality Relations ISFj and ENTj by Stratiyevskaya"
This made me think of the subconscious ways my Te- lead manifests.
It is said to be unsustainable thirst for acquiring stuff.
If you look at me being a Sx first you could call it that way. It manifests with me acquiring attraction.
In most of my environments women crush a lot on me. In one of my old courses there was not a single women that did not have a crush on me for some time or at least found me attractive.
I usually flirt with people i feel an attraction with and some of them fell in love with me in the process.
Ni creative is a great tool to make people feel good, being a Sx first one and harmonizer gives you a good picture to project.
Maybe you could call that exploitation, i don't even do that on purpose, i even avoided socializing with a group of women in near past because i know i don't want to marry any of them and they would only fall in love with me.
But yes, maybe that is a way i exploit people. It's an Se hidden agenda and intensity thing for me probably. i genuily feel what i share with those women but in the end i know that i won't keep any of them. Still i usually make them fall for me, not even sure if i intend to do so. Maybe also a Victim thing, looking for their Se to pull through and not finding it.
intimacy Maybe this is how i exploit people in my prime focus Sx, it runs automatically and i don't ever seem to have enough connection and people finding me attractive while showing interest in only a few.
[Wow i really do like myself, but this wasn't even the intention of this post geniuly seemed like a connection when i started to write this.]
Also, i do think that what strati wrote was in a hypothetical situation and she focused on the subjective perspective of a specific esi in this situation, and did not mean the word exploiter as a generalization.
Depends on the intended meaning of the word: exploiter. Humans tend to be opportunists and can be equally exploitive of one another and of the environment so the word is likely applicable to us all. Eps seem to have natural abilities to take advantage of something in a parasitic sense because they're often the first to notice an opportunity or opening. Ejs have natural abilities to bring things/people together and make things happen but that doesn't indicate a greater exploitive urge......
Looking at the title I first thought this was a salt post about Jack Oliver Aaron from WSS.
Strat has been accused of being particularly harsh with her Duals (and everyone else, for that matter), but I've recently been trying to see things from the ESI perspective. I was struck in particular by a comment that an LIE friend of mine made, where he told me that his ESI GF had put him through grad school and then they both watched as a friend of theirs, who was also being supported by his GF, left her after he graduated. The ESI GF threatened to kill the LIE if he left her the way their friend left his GF.
I have no idea what types the separated couple were, but the couples knew each other. Possibly LIE and ESI, possibly not. To me, letting a woman support you through school and then leaving her when you graduate is pretty low. I'd definitely call that exploitation, but again, I don't know their types.
I was really curious about tales of exploitation by LIE's that other people may have to relate.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-29-2020 at 05:48 PM.
Wow, that's one of the more pessimistic duality descriptions I've read, and it's definitely not kind to LIEs.
I don't know many LIEs IRL, so I can't verify how true this might be, but what Strat seems to say is that LIEs want to be free and act exploitatively to prevent themselves from feeling controlled. It actually reminds me of the ILE-SEI dynamic (the ILE doesn't want to be controlled/pinned down by the SEI; the SEI, like the ESI, creating a "cozy nest" to ensnare their dual, and so on), with a major difference being, I think, that ILEs seem more reluctant to actually hurt SEIs than LIEs apparently are to hurt ESIs.
One of those interesting symmetries in Socionics -- the ILE is less harsh toward his emotionally sensitive dual; the emotionally strong ESI can withstand the harsher LIE.
Not that this really means much, but it might be food for thought.
As flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport.
To operate with Te+Ne using subjective Ni path without Ti bindings does definitely sound like exploitation. Hah, hard to get around it.
Measuring you right now
Winning is for losers
Jacks are totally exploiters. If Ni is about opportunity, and Te about getting shit done efficiently, LIEs would initiate contact with the world in a way that maximizes the utility of all the opportunities that present themselves. Most forms of Te lend themselves to "hacking," rather than trying to understand a universal meaning of the phenomenon in question. Hack, exploit, tomato, tomato. No type is a bad person, we can all be unhealthy, but when LIE is unhealthy, whoa... talk about lack of Fi and being a fake af shell-of-a-person
I'd say a healthy LIE would always be something of an opportunist but can use those powers for good. Being an exploiter isn't inevitable since character is separate from cognitive functions. Since you're seeking real life tales, it got me thinking about two LIE males I know. One is married to his dual ESI, and one is married to an EII.
The dualized LIE is a great guy, probably 3w4. I think he's Sx first, and he treats his wife well. It's cute. I wouldn't describe him as exploitive at all (of her or in general), he's a team player and observant of others' needs. He works full time, is a landlord, and hands on with their daughter. One funny little story, though. They hosted a Japanese foreign exchange student last summer. I said, "Oh, that's cool of you." He was like "yeah, we've both wanted to visit Japan, so now we have a connection there in case we need a free place to stay." Haha.
The LIE married to an EII is also a type 3, but So/Sx. She financially supported him to go to grad school first even though she wanted to go back to school, too, had just had a young daughter, and they were paying off his student loans. It's one of her biggest resentments against him. He barely made it through after three awful, stressful years, and stalled and stalled taking (and failing) multiple expensive certification tests for several years after grad school. He's tried multiple part time jobs that are sort of related to what he said he wanted to do at the beginning, but can't seem to make it work for a variety of reasons and blames it on everyone else in his environment (coworkers, bosses don't understand him, it's not what he likes to be doing, etc. etc.). He has a better job now and she only works part time, but I think those 7 years wore her down and drained a lot of the love.
Is that exploitation? I don't know. He's definitely not interested in leaving her. She's acknowledged her role in the dysfunction and that it was a mistake to give up her dreams for someone else, but it's really hard for EIIs to apply pressure to anyone. She's so soft on him even when she thinks she's being tough.
I also think the second LIE struggles with narcissism, while the first one does not. Not more than any other person, at least.
To be a Te lead means to exist in a perpetual state of evaluating something or someone's objective utility. I don't care if it's a toaster, a schedule, an app, an accountant or a Basketball player, I'm always asking "to what extent do you effectively fulfill your raison d'etre?" and "how can I best utilize this to some end?" 4D Ne allows LIEs to see an object's potential utility and the plethora of ways in which it can be applied. Yes, put together, this sounds rather cold, impersonal and exploitative, but we're hardwired to see the world through a utilitarian lens--that's simply the nature of the beast.
LIEs don't require immediate returns on the resources (including energy and effort) we've invested because our Ni allows us to play the long term game. I've literally helped people "gratis," not seen or heard from them in years, only for them to reemerge at the opportune moment with some "payback" they felt obliged to offer because of my previously showcased "generosity of spirit." In that way, it's hard to feel like I ever truly lose or am down for the count, because I've cumulatively devoted so much time to spreading and sowing seeds that somehow blossom and produce fruits when I've needed them. That's the practical, realistic way that "karma" has manifested in my life. I see how LIEs might be great leaders and generals in the sense that we can go throughout life building an army of sorts, a network of people willing to follow us into war, whether out of appreciation/gratitude, debt or potential gain, and usually because we were able to open them up to their hidden potentialities (or of some endeavor) they might not have otherwise seen. It should go without saying that Ne PoLR types are probably the most susceptible to this approach, whether that be to their benefit or their demise.
The exploitive nature of LIEs (and EIEs for that matter), is often in their Se-mobilizing function. As I wrote on my blog, Se, in its unhealthy forms, is about the psychological concept of Entitlement, which is define by Young et.al. as:
The problem with many LIEs, in the view of the people they work with, is that they take and do not give back. This is the first bolded part in the quote above. Their dealings with other people might not characterized by reciprocity. Now some LIEs might argue that they pay people their paycheck, but then they ignore that most people deliver beyond the call of duty, and are not properly compensated for that. Also, some of the worse LIEs do not even want to pay the agreed price."The belief that one is superior to other people; entitled to special rights and privileges; or not bound by the rules of reciprocity that guide normal social interaction. Often involves insistence that one should be able to do or have whatever one wants, regardless of what is realistic, what others consider reasonable, or the cost to others; OR an exaggerated focus on superiority (e.g., being among the most successful, famous, wealthy) -- in order to achieve power or control (not primarily for attention or approval). Sometimes includes excessive competitiveness toward, or domination of, others: asserting one's power, forcing one's point of view, or controlling the behavior of others in line with one's own desires---without empathy or concern for others' needs or feelings."
The more serious pathological LIEs go one step further, then we get to the second bolded part in the quote: their behavior gets outright sadistic and/or abusive.
My SEI GF broke off a friendship with a n LIE woman recently for the second, and probably final final time. The woman, who lives on the other side of town, was sick for a couple of weeks, and my GF offered to do some groceries for her, since her neighbor didn't want to do it anymore. So my GF drove to the other side of town, got her groceries and then went to drop off the groceries. Then she and the woman discussed their hobby (making clothes) and went through pieces of cloth the woman had. My GF remarked about some particular cloth how nice it was, then the woman replied, do you want to have it, I'm not going to use it. My GF said okay. A bit later they went to settle the bill for the groceries, then the woman mentioned to settle the bill with the price of the cloth. My GF was under the impression that the cloth was a gift. So they negotiated a price of 3 euros (THREE shitty euros!!) for the cloth, when my GF took it on her to drive all the way to the other side of town (easily 4 euros in gasoline) and did her groceries. My GF was taken aback, but didn't assert herself. Later when she came home, she started feeling bad about it, also understood why this woman is constantly driving other people away: because she does not give back when being given something. I was no at all surprised my GF decided to break off the friendship, it was in the stars.
In business dealings, my alarm bells usually start ringing pretty fast when dealing with LIEs. Only a few are of a reliable nature. Some even have the ff-ing nerve to ask for your input and contributions while making clear from the start that they are going to spend their money elsewhere (a place most likely a lot cheaper). Some even start putting pressure on you on your rate not even having discussed the nature of the project. In that sense it's better dealing with their ESI duals: they will give you a call if you forget to send them an invoice timely ;-)
And yes, LIEs and certain other types always argue that people get their paychecks or that people willingly agreed to something. They just never tell you about the rock and hard place the person was forced between before they "willingly" agreed.
In any case, Socionics has thought me how to deal with LIEs in business and personal life ;-)
Obviously it depends on the person. There are good and bad people in every type. Everyone has a different balance. Generally speaking, LIE are good at getting their way, being a PITA if they know they can get away with it, and creating and keeping opportunities for themselves. This creates someone who can have a big negative impact if they are not morally attuned enough.
Right now I’m dealing with getting tax return documentation from a previous LIE boss of mine who harassed me, and it’s a PITA. Basically have to threaten taking legal action to get him to move his ass.
@Adam Strange I'm of the mind that a 4D lead extroverted rational function and a 1D suggestive introverted rational function means that one will always be consciously acclimated towards adjusting/moving/ordering the outside world (including the tribe), at the expense of their own subjective judgments, or in other words, their selves, i.e. EXTjs not knowing how we truly feel or what we value and EXFjs not knowing what they really think and believe to be true with crystalline clarity and precision.
Therefore, something in me wants to push back on the notion that LIEs are chiefly out for self gain and self enrichment--maybe it's just me, but something about that feels false. I believe that most of ours efforts stand to benefit A LOT of people; our impact having a wider breadth is inherent within the EJ temperament. I think that EJs sacrifice more of ourselves for the sake of the outer world, and one of the potential benefits is that we tend to reap higher reward, but again, that comes at the cost of "self." If anything, it's our duals (IJs) who tend to be most "self" oriented and self focused.
If Gamma quadra is concerned with freedom and individualism, then LIEs actualize theoretical frameworks into tangible structures that not only allow for everyone to freely express [Fi] themselves as they see fit, i.e., artistry, but to spread and share those expressions, i.e., commercialism. Yes, TeNx is exploitative and opportunistic, but not simply for the LIE's sake, which is my overarching point; it's not as if LIEs are known to just hoard and sit on our resources like fucking Smaug the Dragon. Nah, we're all about seeking out new opportunities, investing and reinvesting, taking high risks with high rewards concerning endeavors that will ultimately result in a heavy impact on OTHERS, the tribe. Granted, it's possible for that impact to have negative consequences, but it's just as possible for the impact to be positive. I just reject the notion that there is something inherently insidious about our makeup; perspective matters, and folks like Strav and some of the other posters on this thread forget they have cognitive biases that jaundice their interpretations.
Last edited by Alonzo; 02-27-2020 at 02:03 AM.
Jack: The one who took Strat's savings to spend in his own.
I think she was saving to print her socionics book for a long time when some Jack appeared to borrow it because yolo. She then wrote the last page of description with bitterness.
Last edited by Tommy; 02-27-2020 at 11:43 PM.
In a photography course a fellow student, an older homosexual guy learned that I was a consultant in the computer business. Eager to invite to his place under the guise of PC issues, he informed about my rate. So I told him my rate, immediately followed by the remark that I didn't do that kind of work. So he tried other options, such as he coming to my "office" instead, looking for an opening, ignoring the clues I gave him. I just kept repeating that I didn't do PC support. Basically telling him "NO' again and again without giving a reason. Never give a reason, they will grab you by the balls of your reasons. Just say NO.
If you have to deal with an LIE, never assume anything is a deal, always have everything in writing, make it a point to settle every little bit of extra work in written contractual form, or they will burden you with extra work for which they are never going to pay, because either you didn't tell them it was going to costs money or they assumed it was included in the already agreed price. And try to anticipate as much as you can the things that ARE NOT part of the contract, and mention these specifically. Bring these items as those things they themselves are (financially) responsible for. Which is always a good idea, even if your business contact is not an LIE.
Another thing is that some of the worse LIEs will abuse your lack of means to take things to court. E.g. a client of mine sold his web site (that I build for him) to an LIE for 75000 euros. The LIE and his company explicitly agreed (in paper) to not audit the software, meaning they could not complain about its quality afterwards. Well, my client never got his money, with he argument that the software was badly written. This despite the contractual agreement, as my client didn't have the money to take things to court. The LIE knew, from the start, that my client was all to eager to get rid of this web site (since it wasn't doing well commercially).
Mentioning this specific LIE: before acquiring the fore-mentioned web site, my client asked me to visit the new owner to explain about some of the technical details. The LIE called me, and started, in the phone call, to put all kinds of pressure on me, which made my alarm bells ring. Then I visited his web site, and saw that the company was incorporated in the Netherlands Antilles, instead of the Netherlands. And all of this openly, no companies in between to erase the tracks! Why would anyone have their business registered overseas in such an open fashion (i.e. it is not just to evade taxes). That was the second alarm bell, to which I decided I would not engage into a business relationship with him. Fast forward a couple of years later, when news started spreading in the business community that this guy left a mountain of unpaid bills. But of course, nothing was his fault, according to journalists who quoted him. Basically, the whole business was a scam to rob some money from investors, using suppliers in the process to put up a nice facade. Nevertheless, this guy is now persona non grata in the Dutch business world. You can fool some of the people all the time, or all people some of the time, but you can't fool all people all of the time.
The basic reason why people fall for the complicated constructs of LIEs (or ILIs for that matter), is their own greed. So you best avoid LIEs by not being greedy. Greed makes you blind to what is there right in front of your face:
Last but not least: not all LIEs are scammers, far from it, but even with healthy LIEs you need to make sure you have got your act together, or else you will be the victim of their very high or even unrelenting demands. Many of them of not dishonest out of intention, but out of a lack of ethics, which is explained by their FI-suggestive. Which is why they need to be complimented with ESIs.
A very good book for all people interested in tricks of dishonest business men: Winning Through Intimidation by Robert J. Ringer. A quote from this book:
"I really meant to cut off your hand at the wrist when you reached for your chips, even though I had assured you that was never my intention"
A lot get nervous at the threat of physical force. mind you this all needs to be immediate pressuring, over the phone or computer means nothing to them. You gotta be in their face and then you can see their weak sensing and how insecure most are about it (Pathetic se ha).
No offense to any LIE's here. This is pertaining to bad ones. I know an LIE guy who's a great dude and very friendly and doesn't screw anyone over.
Makes sense ESI is their dual. Someone retardedly rigid in ethics who will forcefully push them onto the LIE with volitional pressuring, they're defenseless against a successful volitional pressurer who has a similar mentality towards things. Look at how Elizabeth Warren made Bloomberg look like a clown in the Vegas Debate. She's ESI He's LIE.
Last edited by kingslayer; 02-28-2020 at 04:15 PM.
Moreover, just as an IEE discerns my hustle/what I'm about a mile away through the lens of their Fi, and establishes the necessary protections against Te onslaughts, that's exactly what my Ni (and its forward looking contingencies) does in the face of Se "pressure"--there's a good chance I've already planned several steps ahead in anticipation of that.
Strangely enough, he's not one of the two people I've met in my life whom I've wanted to kill. I hit a bump in the road and kept going, while he's burning every bridge there is. He's wrecking his life without my help.
The best fighter I know is an EIE. He can probably beat me in 1 v 1. but I can still pressure him into doing what I want most times as long as I let him feel a sense of control over the group
A long time ago, when I was drinking a lot, I got into several fistfights. I lost as many as I won.
When you are drunk, you can't feel much and you can get blood all over everything before you know it.
I'm not happy about getting into fist fights. I feel kind of ashamed and stupid when I look back on that.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-28-2020 at 06:29 PM.
Now let us make clear that each and every Socionics type has attitudes that can do harm. Take, for example, EIIs with their, imho, often naive ideas about human nature, seeing, e.g., only the negative effects of restriction of migration for immigrants or refugees (a tunnel vision focus on the emotional pain of the immigrants) and not seeing the negative effects of large scale immigration on society at large. EIIs, with the tendency towards self-sacrafice, expect the rest of us to self-sacrifice as well. In this sense, all of us are a potential danger or problem if we are not balanced by the qualities of our duals and other types in the socion.
Recently my agency inquired if I am still not available to that organization. I said (and I have said it before) that if I were to go and this chef would show one sign of bad attitude towards me, I would grab a metal food container and beat the shit out of him, and that this was a promise. And I would: if nothing else works, then I will use physical violence in order to set clear boundaries. Some people behaviors are caused by them assuming that people usually do not resort to violence. In that sense I am like the eagle in the Great Seal of the US: an olive branch in one claw, arrows in the other, facing in the direction of the olive branch but not afraid to use the arrows if people are immune to reason, and a handful of people have learned what that means ;-) But obviously I'm not going to allow other people to put me into a situation where I might have to resort to violence. Working there is not worth such problems.
Interestingly enough, Gulenko, in comparing his DCNH system with Helen Fisher's hormonal typology, posited a correlation between Dominant [Te, Se, Fe] & Testosterone, Creative [Ne, Fe, Se] & Dopamine, Normalizing [Ti, Fi, Si] & Serotonin, and Harmonizing [Ni, Fi, Si] & Estrogen. All of these theories are circumstantial af, but it's interesting to ponder the possible connections and correlations.
I was talking to a male ESI friend of mine, who has faithfully but sometimes begrudgingly worked in the shadow of an LIE for twenty years, and I asked him if he thought that people of my type (he knows that his boss and I are the same "type") are exploiters and swindlers.
His reaction was remarkable. He got this big, incredulous grin on his face and then started laughing. Now, I've known this guy for a long time and I've never seen him laugh like that.
When he settled down, he said, "Present company excluded." Which I thought was rather nice of him, but I said, "No, probably me, too."
i think there is a difference between personal life and work, i don't think i am especially exploitative in my personal life (but also not self-sacrificing...i think the most exploitative types are Se dom) but in business well everyone is out for his own gain, often if you don't strike first you're gonna look like a fool, business world is anyway full of Te and Se dom types so basically exploitation is the basis of private business.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
It is true that Se creatives tend to take their [subjective] duties [a bit too] seriously.
Measuring you right now
Winning is for losers
Jacks are explorers. What's another name for the events of an explorer's explorations? His exploits.
Socionics is not behaviorist!
"This is the bizarre thing about being a superhero — you've even got to save the bad guys." -- Captain Planet.