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Thread: Jack the Exploiter - LIE/ENTj

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    The exploitive nature of LIEs (and EIEs for that matter), is often in their Se-mobilizing function. As I wrote on my blog, Se, in its unhealthy forms, is about the psychological concept of Entitlement, which is define by Young et.al. as:



    The problem with many LIEs, in the view of the people they work with, is that they take and do not give back. This is the first bolded part in the quote above. Their dealings with other people might not characterized by reciprocity. Now some LIEs might argue that they pay people their paycheck, but then they ignore that most people deliver beyond the call of duty, and are not properly compensated for that. Also, some of the worse LIEs do not even want to pay the agreed price.

    The more serious pathological LIEs go one step further, then we get to the second bolded part in the quote: their behavior gets outright sadistic and/or abusive.

    My SEI GF broke off a friendship with a n LIE woman recently for the second, and probably final final time. The woman, who lives on the other side of town, was sick for a couple of weeks, and my GF offered to do some groceries for her, since her neighbor didn't want to do it anymore. So my GF drove to the other side of town, got her groceries and then went to drop off the groceries. Then she and the woman discussed their hobby (making clothes) and went through pieces of cloth the woman had. My GF remarked about some particular cloth how nice it was, then the woman replied, do you want to have it, I'm not going to use it. My GF said okay. A bit later they went to settle the bill for the groceries, then the woman mentioned to settle the bill with the price of the cloth. My GF was under the impression that the cloth was a gift. So they negotiated a price of 3 euros (THREE shitty euros!!) for the cloth, when my GF took it on her to drive all the way to the other side of town (easily 4 euros in gasoline) and did her groceries. My GF was taken aback, but didn't assert herself. Later when she came home, she started feeling bad about it, also understood why this woman is constantly driving other people away: because she does not give back when being given something. I was no at all surprised my GF decided to break off the friendship, it was in the stars.

    In business dealings, my alarm bells usually start ringing pretty fast when dealing with LIEs. Only a few are of a reliable nature. Some even have the ff-ing nerve to ask for your input and contributions while making clear from the start that they are going to spend their money elsewhere (a place most likely a lot cheaper). Some even start putting pressure on you on your rate not even having discussed the nature of the project. In that sense it's better dealing with their ESI duals: they will give you a call if you forget to send them an invoice timely ;-)
    I'd take issue with this argument. You have a gap in your reasoning: you ask us to accept that LIE are singularly prone to entitlement more than are other types without any proof. Then you explain what that might look like. It's unsupported, though. I typicaly see many Si/Ne quadra members offering gifts (at least some of the time this is as a cementer of relations. Instead of trading instructive real-life accounts of personal challenges and methods that might serve as tools, as gammas seem to, the Si/Ne offer 'to pay'..and sometimes that's an event ticket or restaurant bill a gamma was intending to pay on their own) and gammas resisting, citing inability or low likelihood they would repay or citing the giver 'needing it possibly' and urging them to keep it. While I think it's rubbish to not have mutualiy in a relationship, there's room to negotiate what that looks like and what's acceptable. The sick LIE may have been acting out of poverty more than personality. Also, there may have been an understanding on one side that charity was involved. I'm not sure. But extrapolating behavior like that to a pattern for alll LIE seems off to me
    Last edited by nanashi; 05-21-2020 at 11:14 PM.

  2. #42
    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    I'd take issue with this argument.
    By all means, do so. I couldn't care less what you think, especially because you are claiming I said things I didn't say at all. You are nice company for people already on my ignore list. Have a nice life!
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    By all means, do so. I couldn't care less what you think, especially because you are claiming I said things I didn't say at all. You are nice company for people already on my ignore list. Have a nice life!
    "The exploitive nature of LIEs (and EIEs for that matter), is often in their Se-mobilizing function. As I wrote on my blog, Se, in its unhealthy forms, is about the psychological concept of Entitlement, which is define by Young et.al." Se is not about entitlement. A person may overstep bounds and be using or favor any information element.

  4. #44
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Actually, I know a chef from a large conference center that has been verbal abusive towards me at several occasions, of which I suspect he is LIE (this guy had a reputation for being verbally abusive). I had already made it a point with the management over there that if this behavior didn't stop, I would not go there anymore. So they talked to him, he behaved for a little while, then one day started again, and I let that organization and the agency I work for know that it was my last day over there. That was 2014.

    Recently my agency inquired if I am still not available to that organization. I said (and I have said it before) that if I were to go and this chef would show one sign of bad attitude towards me, I would grab a metal food container and beat the shit out of him, and that this was a promise. And I would: if nothing else works, then I will use physical violence in order to set clear boundaries. Some people behaviors are caused by them assuming that people usually do not resort to violence. In that sense I am like the eagle in the Great Seal of the US: an olive branch in one claw, arrows in the other, facing in the direction of the olive branch but not afraid to use the arrows if people are immune to reason, and a handful of people have learned what that means ;-) But obviously I'm not going to allow other people to put me into a situation where I might have to resort to violence. Working there is not worth such problems.
    Definitely not IEE.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Definitely not IEE.
    You mean, I am not IEE?
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    You mean, I am not IEE?
    Yes- someone earlier asked your type and you didn't answer so I was thinking about what it might be. (They asked if you were IEE). So when I read this post, I said: definitely not. I think my type would be more likely contemplating what it is interiorly about that LIE that made him be/act that way, vs. setting a firm boundary. Or, we might try to cajole him out of the negative behavior with charm (and see it as a personal challenge to placate the behavior that way). It's a more philosophical/psychological approach, with a more subtle, indirect (even covert) way of changing the behavior, vs. just dealing with it directly and squarely like you did.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    .
    .


  7. #47
    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    You have an opinion, how postmodern of you. I could easily refute your 'logic' and assumptions about what it entails be to IEE, and why I am still IEE and always have been one, and why and how I have learned to overcome the limitations of my personality as best as I can, but I won't, it is not up to me nor is it my responsibility to convince you of anything, the burden of responsibility of rising above the limitations of your Self is on you. Not even God nor Jesus will help you, unless you are prepared to put your soul and destiny into their hands, on their conditions, not yours. Your ignorance and your preaching, which are all over this site, has shown you haven't so far.
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

  8. #48
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    You have an opinion, how postmodern of you. I could easily refute your 'logic' and assumptions about what it entails be to IEE, and why I am still IEE and always have been one, and why and how I have learned to overcome the limitations of my personality as best as I can, but I won't, it is not up to me nor is it my responsibility to convince you of anything, the burden of responsibility of rising above the limitations of your Self is on you. Not even God nor Jesus will help you, unless you are prepared to put your soul and destiny into their hands, on their conditions, not yours. Your ignorance and your preaching, which are all over this site, has shown you haven't so far.
    Maybe you are right!

    IEE's:

    "IEEs are usually friendly, propitious and accepting people. They ...tend to enjoy cultivating a sincere atmosphere of passive good will..."

    "IEEs frequently have an innately optimistic disposition... and often earnestly believe in the value of a process of thorough, respectful, and politically correct discussion of controversial matters."

    "IEE does not like conflict between people one bit; he would rather stay on everyone's good side and keep in good terms with both sides of a conflict..."



    Certainly, consenting adult, the following innate trait must require your continual strident hard work to overcome, since we can never escape to pull of our basic personality:

    "IEEs have the capability and ability to be direct and firm with others. However, [this is]... short-lived. As soon as the IEE starts to think about ...the negative connotations of their directness or firmness (Se), for example, fear of instilling fear in another person [so]...that it would cause the person to be timid to or even scared to approach the IEE thereby distorting the personal bonds the IEE has with the person (Fi), the IEE will back away from making such statements.
    Therefore these direct and categorical statements are quite difficult for an IEE to make..."
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  9. #49
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    @consentingadult - And then there is this! Our embarrassing Ti-flaw! Try as we may, we can't avoid these situations that tax our Ti. Here is how we totally 'round-about 'splain things:


    "IEEs tend to have a difficult time describing a concept or system in a manner in which the essential facts are all that is needed to understand or describe it. The IEE's focus in describing a concept or system is in how they themselves came to understand and see what they are describing. If an IEE is asked to describe or explain something, their natural tendency is to describe the pieces of the concept, system or idea that are related to the subject as a foundation before explaining the actual concept itself. The IEE will often describe details or aspects of a system that are unnecessary to the understanding of the system's properties, but the IEE views these details as essential functions of a sequential system (as opposed to describing the concept or system and only the concept or system as an independent entity). In other words, even if a detail is deemed outside of the IEE as extraneous, the IEE that is describing it will see it as a vital and significant part of a chain in order to paint the full, "proper" picture of the system the IEE wants to describe. An IEE will tend to start off explanations with a tremendous amount of detail, energy and patience and will move towards a more general explanation as they tire out (if they tire out). If something in the IEE's chain is broken or questioned, the description (in the IEE's mind) halts or falls apart."


    Isn't this the truth? I think it's not possible to overcome this essential IEE flaw (except if we can plan ahead a memorized answer to the Ti query). I know while I am trying to explain this sort of thing that I am doing very poorly, that I am too much going on-and-on, and I am losing my listener (it's the glazed look in his eyes), but if I try harder, it takes more words!

    The only way-around is following the easier route we IEE like to take, even though we know it's not what folks actually want - it's just easier for us:



    "When an IEE understands a logical concept or system, they are much better at describing anecdotal experiences with the concept or system that help to illustrate the concept or system. They would prefer to do this rather than describing the concept or system as described in the previous paragraph -- describe the essential facts of a concept or system."
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    And thank you for that, Socionics writers. We IEE in fact DO understand logical concepts and systems - we just can't explain them to you!
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    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by SocietyOTLittleFlower View Post
    Jacks are explorers. What's another name for the events of an explorer's explorations? His exploits.
    This ain’t your regular Dora the Explorer.

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    As an LIE, I make a point to not accept favors from people. Most LIE's have a lot of pride, and would rather do it themselves. As for being a manager, I would like to think I would be a fair one. Also, many LIE's respond well if you are just direct with them. In cases where I have crossed boundaries, all the person needs to do is speak up. The problem is many people are insecure, passive, and then wonder why they get stepped on.
    Last edited by NightHawk; 05-31-2020 at 02:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post
    And don't mistake weak Se for an inability to successfully beat dat ass. lol One of the problems with weak Se is an inability to properly discern how much kinetic pressure/force/power is necessary to impact an object/move it through space. The mobilizing function is a wonky one; it can be used too little or too much. And particularly in cases of immediate danger, matters of life or death, etc..., do not underestimate an EXNjs ability to turn all the way up, and if anything, go TOO far. I'm rather aware of my weak Se, which is why my mentality is to utterly annihilate the enemy so that they can never come back. If you're going to get the jump on LIE, there needs an unorthodox, heavy, relentless onslaught. And be properly prepared for the 10 other SLE goons we hired for back up; it's a very John McClane Vs. Hans Gruber kinda deal. lol

    OMG YES all of this !

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    Quote Originally Posted by cactagon View Post
    Jacks are totally exploiters. If Ni is about opportunity, and Te about getting shit done efficiently, LIEs would initiate contact with the world in a way that maximizes the utility of all the opportunities that present themselves. Most forms of Te lend themselves to "hacking," rather than trying to understand a universal meaning of the phenomenon in question. Hack, exploit, tomato, tomato. No type is a bad person, we can all be unhealthy, but when LIE is unhealthy, whoa... talk about lack of Fi and being a fake af shell-of-a-person ��
    Except hacking human interaction means empathy, genuinely caring about people, making sure you're fair with them, holding up your part of the social contract OR reworking that with them.
    I do see NT gammas as opportunistic. My manager called me 'resourceful.' But, being resourceful with people CAN mean being sincere with them, and I enjoy trying myself at that task. There's supposedly bravery in it, just like ppl think there is bravery in physical trials or enterprising challenges LIEs put themselves through, according to the lit on ENTJs and my own experiences, but for me, it feels easier doing what ppl say is brave. It's a relief. I find it harder and kinda painful to not be sincere and open, to not push myself physically, and to not confront problems at work.

    Plus, you can argue with LIE agape love and with gamma's prediliction for self-sacrifice for the greater good (yes, that is in the lit, too) that LIE are capable of the antithesis of exploiting humans.

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    My EII secretary just agreed to take on a lot more responsibility for a lot more money.

    Funny how that works.

    It would be nice if she were working for love, but I think the best I can hope for is mild affection and a passing interest in my (our) welfare.

    But on my side, I'm lucky. She's competent, loyal, and true. And worth it. And I don't think I can call her a secretary any more. I'll have to ask her what she calls herself, so I don't make a faux pas.

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    [QUOTE=Adam Strange;1493379]My EII secretary just agreed to take on a lot more responsibility for a lot more money.

    Funny how that works.

    It would be nice if she were working for love, but I think the best I can hope for is mild affection and a passing interest in my (our) welfare.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    It would be nice if she were working for love, but I think the best I can hope for is mild affection
    She the one who eyed you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche View Post
    She the one who eyed you?

    She's the one who was trying to beat some sense into dumb ox (=LSE) me after I took her out to dinner but refused to kiss her, just because the opportunity was there. Hey, she's EII; a fantastic person, but not an ESI. Truthfully, if I didn't know about Socionics, I'd very likely be married to her right now. Because I'm naturally stupid and have a hard time understanding other people. And I'm a sucker for tall, thin, introverted females with dark hair who act demure and actually know people well and who seem to like me. SMH.

    I think, in public, ESIs and EIIs are very similar with respect to LIEs. It's when they are not in public that you find major differences. I'm not a Caregiver looking for an Infantile, but I look to her pretty much like an LSE with some terrific dynamism and optimism during the day, and she likes that. She likes it too much.

    She divorced her husband, who was probably an ESE, because he was not money-smart, and then started dating a guy who was possibly SEI, but it's hard for me to tell. She's just having a hard time getting her guns on the right target. I've pointed her towards LSEs, but she thinks they lack imagination.
    You can't ripen a field before its time.

    BUT, she's now responsible for the company's invoicing, and I couldn't be happier because she's 100% trustworthy. And diligent. And thorough. And on top of things. Thank god.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post
    To be a Te lead means to exist in a perpetual state of evaluating something or someone's objective utility. I don't care if it's a toaster, a schedule, an app, an accountant or a Basketball player, I'm always asking "to what extent do you effectively fulfill your raison d'etre?" and "how can I best utilize this to some end?" 4D Ne allows LIEs to see an object's potential utility and the plethora of ways in which it can be applied. Yes, put together, this sounds rather cold, impersonal and exploitative, but we're hardwired to see the world through a utilitarian lens--that's simply the nature of the beast.
    Yeah, I think this is where 4D Te comes in, versus Fi creative. I think that Te looks at the "usefulness" of the relation, as opposed to the humanity/formation of relations/potential relations (in the case of IEE: 'people to discuss and share ideas with' or SEE: 'people to know to rise up the ranks') as opposed to LIE: ('How useful is this person in the grand scheme of me completing my goal?') in the case of people/relations sphere. Valued 3D Fi vs 1D valued Fi.

    I agree with the 4D Ne aspect of it. It's unconscious, but it's there. The background process of "the brain". If you imagine the brain as a computer and the functions as processes/apps that use up brainpower, then the 4D functions should use the least amount of RAM (1-25%), the 3D uses the next least (25-50%), 2D (50-75%) and 1D (75+%) based on how you value them, how much you use them and how much you have to actually focus on them.

    Some people seem to think that LIE can't be overly creative because of being Te base, but it's not the case. A lot of the time, the creativity is focused elsewhere, or on different things than what is traditionally thought to be "creative" (i.e. the arts). I guess you could take @Emily 's example below as an example of bing 'creative' through the lens of Base Te:

    Quote Originally Posted by Emily
    They hosted a Japanese foreign exchange student last summer. I said, "Oh, that's cool of you." He was like "yeah, we've both wanted to visit Japan, so now we have a connection there in case we need a free place to stay." Haha.
    I'm always scanning and mining for the valuable stone (read: utility and its potential for application) buried beneath one's soiled, sooty surface. And once they are sufficiently refined and polished, they become resplendent jewelry that can be readily worn or stashed away for the right occasion. Throughout my life, rarely have I taken the time to help someone realize their potential and not reaped a benefit in some way, whether I intended for that or not. The thing is, I can't help but be generous with this ability; I'm compelled to not only see potential and opportunity everywhere and in everyone, but to speak to it, and if possible, actualize it. It's not as intentionally predatory (in the sociopathic sense) as Strat would have you believe.
    I relate a lot to this, to be honest. The diamond in the rough analogy is something that I have referenced several times in the past, and collecting them and polishing them. Cleaning them up, all a part of the process. Always having a collection of knowledge and plans/investments that go in the current direction of the idea. Yeah I think that to the Te base, everything is an ‘investment’ in a sense (even relations have some sort of return/investment to them, and a point beyond an intimate connection).

    Potential is important, but gain is also important (I don’t mean being greedy but it’s more in the purpose sense). I see a lot of potential myself, but I actualise it when it actually brings a benefit and is worth it.

    Yeah, I think that Strat over exaggerated some things in the LIE description (kind of a lot of things). The first few paragraph had me chuckling a bit. Strat is funny to me, how she phrases things but that could be also be the dodgy translations. Or maybe a combination of them both.

    LIEs don't require immediate returns on the resources (including energy and effort) we've invested because our Ni allows us to play the long term game. I've literally helped people "gratis," not seen or heard from them in years, only for them to reemerge at the opportune moment with some "payback" they felt obliged to offer because of my previously showcased "generosity of spirit." In that way, it's hard to feel like I ever truly lose or am down for the count, because I've cumulatively devoted so much time to spreading and sowing seeds that somehow blossom and produce fruits when I've needed them. That's the practical, realistic way that "karma" has manifested in my life. I see how LIEs might be great leaders and generals in the sense that we can go throughout life building an army of sorts, a network of people willing to follow us into war, whether out of appreciation/gratitude, debt or potential gain, and usually because we were able to open them up to their hidden potentialities (or of some endeavor) they might not have otherwise seen. It should go without saying that Ne PoLR types are probably the most susceptible to this approach, whether that be to their benefit or their demise.
    It’s interesting how you see this as a “practical” manifestation of “karma”. I think that, if the input matches the situation, then the output can definitely be more or match the situation. I’d call it more of a profit margin/win-losses than outright “karma”, but I get how “karma” is being applied here, and how people think of it as a concept. Never heard of it being described as being a practical manifestation, but again, all these hippie typs have screwed up the meaning of it with their new-age tripe.
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  19. #59
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Dec 2011
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    Thank you, @Armitage, for liking my posts and thereby validating that you understand the Socionics points I was making. Validation is always nice!
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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