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Thread: Jack the Exploiter - LIE/ENTj

  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    The exploitive nature of LIEs (and EIEs for that matter), is often in their Se-mobilizing function. As I wrote on my blog, Se, in its unhealthy forms, is about the psychological concept of Entitlement, which is define by Young et.al. as:



    The problem with many LIEs, in the view of the people they work with, is that they take and do not give back. This is the first bolded part in the quote above. Their dealings with other people might not characterized by reciprocity. Now some LIEs might argue that they pay people their paycheck, but then they ignore that most people deliver beyond the call of duty, and are not properly compensated for that. Also, some of the worse LIEs do not even want to pay the agreed price.

    The more serious pathological LIEs go one step further, then we get to the second bolded part in the quote: their behavior gets outright sadistic and/or abusive.

    My SEI GF broke off a friendship with a n LIE woman recently for the second, and probably final final time. The woman, who lives on the other side of town, was sick for a couple of weeks, and my GF offered to do some groceries for her, since her neighbor didn't want to do it anymore. So my GF drove to the other side of town, got her groceries and then went to drop off the groceries. Then she and the woman discussed their hobby (making clothes) and went through pieces of cloth the woman had. My GF remarked about some particular cloth how nice it was, then the woman replied, do you want to have it, I'm not going to use it. My GF said okay. A bit later they went to settle the bill for the groceries, then the woman mentioned to settle the bill with the price of the cloth. My GF was under the impression that the cloth was a gift. So they negotiated a price of 3 euros (THREE shitty euros!!) for the cloth, when my GF took it on her to drive all the way to the other side of town (easily 4 euros in gasoline) and did her groceries. My GF was taken aback, but didn't assert herself. Later when she came home, she started feeling bad about it, also understood why this woman is constantly driving other people away: because she does not give back when being given something. I was no at all surprised my GF decided to break off the friendship, it was in the stars.

    In business dealings, my alarm bells usually start ringing pretty fast when dealing with LIEs. Only a few are of a reliable nature. Some even have the ff-ing nerve to ask for your input and contributions while making clear from the start that they are going to spend their money elsewhere (a place most likely a lot cheaper). Some even start putting pressure on you on your rate not even having discussed the nature of the project. In that sense it's better dealing with their ESI duals: they will give you a call if you forget to send them an invoice timely ;-)
    I'd take issue with this argument. You have a gap in your reasoning: you ask us to accept that LIE are singularly prone to entitlement more than are other types without any proof. Then you explain what that might look like. It's unsupported, though. I typicaly see many Si/Ne quadra members offering gifts (at least some of the time this is as a cementer of relations. Instead of trading instructive real-life accounts of personal challenges and methods that might serve as tools, as gammas seem to, the Si/Ne offer 'to pay'..and sometimes that's an event ticket or restaurant bill a gamma was intending to pay on their own) and gammas resisting, citing inability or low likelihood they would repay or citing the giver 'needing it possibly' and urging them to keep it. While I think it's rubbish to not have mutualiy in a relationship, there's room to negotiate what that looks like and what's acceptable. The sick LIE may have been acting out of poverty more than personality. Also, there may have been an understanding on one side that charity was involved. I'm not sure. But extrapolating behavior like that to a pattern for alll LIE seems off to me
    Last edited by nanashi; 05-21-2020 at 10:14 PM.
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  2. #42
    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    I'd take issue with this argument.
    By all means, do so. I couldn't care less what you think, especially because you are claiming I said things I didn't say at all. You are nice company for people already on my ignore list. Have a nice life!
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    By all means, do so. I couldn't care less what you think, especially because you are claiming I said things I didn't say at all. You are nice company for people already on my ignore list. Have a nice life!
    "The exploitive nature of LIEs (and EIEs for that matter), is often in their Se-mobilizing function. As I wrote on my blog, Se, in its unhealthy forms, is about the psychological concept of Entitlement, which is define by Young et.al." Se is not about entitlement. A person may overstep bounds and be using or favor any information element.
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

  4. #44
    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Actually, I know a chef from a large conference center that has been verbal abusive towards me at several occasions, of which I suspect he is LIE (this guy had a reputation for being verbally abusive). I had already made it a point with the management over there that if this behavior didn't stop, I would not go there anymore. So they talked to him, he behaved for a little while, then one day started again, and I let that organization and the agency I work for know that it was my last day over there. That was 2014.

    Recently my agency inquired if I am still not available to that organization. I said (and I have said it before) that if I were to go and this chef would show one sign of bad attitude towards me, I would grab a metal food container and beat the shit out of him, and that this was a promise. And I would: if nothing else works, then I will use physical violence in order to set clear boundaries. Some people behaviors are caused by them assuming that people usually do not resort to violence. In that sense I am like the eagle in the Great Seal of the US: an olive branch in one claw, arrows in the other, facing in the direction of the olive branch but not afraid to use the arrows if people are immune to reason, and a handful of people have learned what that means ;-) But obviously I'm not going to allow other people to put me into a situation where I might have to resort to violence. Working there is not worth such problems.
    Definitely not IEE.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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  5. #45
    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Definitely not IEE.
    You mean, I am not IEE?
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

  6. #46
    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    You mean, I am not IEE?
    Yes- someone earlier asked your type and you didn't answer so I was thinking about what it might be. (They asked if you were IEE). So when I read this post, I said: definitely not. I think my type would be more likely contemplating what it is interiorly about that LIE that made him be/act that way, vs. setting a firm boundary. Or, we might try to cajole him out of the negative behavior with charm (and see it as a personal challenge to placate the behavior that way). It's a more philosophical/psychological approach, with a more subtle, indirect (even covert) way of changing the behavior, vs. just dealing with it directly and squarely like you did.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  7. #47
    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    You have an opinion, how postmodern of you. I could easily refute your 'logic' and assumptions about what it entails be to IEE, and why I am still IEE and always have been one, and why and how I have learned to overcome the limitations of my personality as best as I can, but I won't, it is not up to me nor is it my responsibility to convince you of anything, the burden of responsibility of rising above the limitations of your Self is on you. Not even God nor Jesus will help you, unless you are prepared to put your soul and destiny into their hands, on their conditions, not yours. Your ignorance and your preaching, which are all over this site, has shown you haven't so far.
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

  8. #48
    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    You have an opinion, how postmodern of you. I could easily refute your 'logic' and assumptions about what it entails be to IEE, and why I am still IEE and always have been one, and why and how I have learned to overcome the limitations of my personality as best as I can, but I won't, it is not up to me nor is it my responsibility to convince you of anything, the burden of responsibility of rising above the limitations of your Self is on you. Not even God nor Jesus will help you, unless you are prepared to put your soul and destiny into their hands, on their conditions, not yours. Your ignorance and your preaching, which are all over this site, has shown you haven't so far.
    Maybe you are right!

    IEE's:

    "IEEs are usually friendly, propitious and accepting people. They ...tend to enjoy cultivating a sincere atmosphere of passive good will..."

    "IEEs frequently have an innately optimistic disposition... and often earnestly believe in the value of a process of thorough, respectful, and politically correct discussion of controversial matters."

    "IEE does not like conflict between people one bit; he would rather stay on everyone's good side and keep in good terms with both sides of a conflict..."



    Certainly, consenting adult, the following innate trait must require your continual strident hard work to overcome, since we can never escape to pull of our basic personality:

    "IEEs have the capability and ability to be direct and firm with others. However, [this is]... short-lived. As soon as the IEE starts to think about ...the negative connotations of their directness or firmness (Se), for example, fear of instilling fear in another person [so]...that it would cause the person to be timid to or even scared to approach the IEE thereby distorting the personal bonds the IEE has with the person (Fi), the IEE will back away from making such statements.
    Therefore these direct and categorical statements are quite difficult for an IEE to make..."
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  9. #49
    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    @consentingadult - And then there is this! Our embarrassing Ti-flaw! Try as we may, we can't avoid these situations that tax our Ti. Here is how we totally 'round-about 'splain things:


    "IEEs tend to have a difficult time describing a concept or system in a manner in which the essential facts are all that is needed to understand or describe it. The IEE's focus in describing a concept or system is in how they themselves came to understand and see what they are describing. If an IEE is asked to describe or explain something, their natural tendency is to describe the pieces of the concept, system or idea that are related to the subject as a foundation before explaining the actual concept itself. The IEE will often describe details or aspects of a system that are unnecessary to the understanding of the system's properties, but the IEE views these details as essential functions of a sequential system (as opposed to describing the concept or system and only the concept or system as an independent entity). In other words, even if a detail is deemed outside of the IEE as extraneous, the IEE that is describing it will see it as a vital and significant part of a chain in order to paint the full, "proper" picture of the system the IEE wants to describe. An IEE will tend to start off explanations with a tremendous amount of detail, energy and patience and will move towards a more general explanation as they tire out (if they tire out). If something in the IEE's chain is broken or questioned, the description (in the IEE's mind) halts or falls apart."


    Isn't this the truth? I think it's not possible to overcome this essential IEE flaw (except if we can plan ahead a memorized answer to the Ti query). I know while I am trying to explain this sort of thing that I am doing very poorly, that I am too much going on-and-on, and I am losing my listener (it's the glazed look in his eyes), but if I try harder, it takes more words!

    The only way-around is following the easier route we IEE like to take, even though we know it's not what folks actually want - it's just easier for us:



    "When an IEE understands a logical concept or system, they are much better at describing anecdotal experiences with the concept or system that help to illustrate the concept or system. They would prefer to do this rather than describing the concept or system as described in the previous paragraph -- describe the essential facts of a concept or system."
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    And thank you for that, Socionics writers. We IEE in fact DO understand logical concepts and systems - we just can't explain them to you!
    .
    .
    .
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  10. #50
    f.k.a Oprah sbbds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SocietyOTLittleFlower View Post
    Jacks are explorers. What's another name for the events of an explorer's explorations? His exploits.
    This ain’t your regular Dora the Explorer.

  11. #51
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    As an LIE, I make a point to not accept favors from people. Most LIE's have a lot of pride, and would rather do it themselves. As for being a manager, I would like to think I would be a fair one. Also, many LIE's respond well if you are just direct with them. In cases where I have crossed boundaries, all the person needs to do is speak up. The problem is many people are insecure, passive, and then wonder why they get stepped on.
    Last edited by NightHawk; 05-31-2020 at 01:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post
    And don't mistake weak Se for an inability to successfully beat dat ass. lol One of the problems with weak Se is an inability to properly discern how much kinetic pressure/force/power is necessary to impact an object/move it through space. The mobilizing function is a wonky one; it can be used too little or too much. And particularly in cases of immediate danger, matters of life or death, etc..., do not underestimate an EXNjs ability to turn all the way up, and if anything, go TOO far. I'm rather aware of my weak Se, which is why my mentality is to utterly annihilate the enemy so that they can never come back. If you're going to get the jump on LIE, there needs an unorthodox, heavy, relentless onslaught. And be properly prepared for the 10 other SLE goons we hired for back up; it's a very John McClane Vs. Hans Gruber kinda deal. lol

    OMG YES all of this !

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