ESI-LSI Obvious Differences

[Arthrospira]

For the past month I’ve been trying to type myself and managed narrow it down to those two. Tests give me the LSI-Ti result but I can’t be certain as ESI-Se is also extremely relatable. I don’t quite understand whether having rigid moral principles and not compromising them have to do with Ti or Fi. Going by Quadras or Reinin Dichtonomies didn’t work out since I don’t completely identify with either.

In MBTI I am ISTJ 1w9 6w5 3w4 sp/so if that matters. Most people would convert it to SLI but I’m definitely PolR-Ne. Also MBTI ISFJ has Fe which I most certainly lack.

So my question is what are the most obvious differences between them so I can finally come to a conclusion?

As for another minor question, would my 6 fix more likely to be phobic or counterphobic in that combination? I don’t seek out confrontations but refuse to back down when they happen.

Apologies if I posted this in the wrong section and thanks in advance!

[Adam Strange]

I assume you are female.

In my experience, LSI's are more sexually aggressive than ESI's, but that is a comparative measure and probably isn't useful in distinguishing between the two types in a single case.

Do you seek Fe or Te? That is a huge difference.

Do you use tools? LSI's use tools, ESI's tend to shop for clothes.

ESI's prefer to wear pastels and clothes with tasteful, broad patterns. LSI's tend to wear black and white, with red highlights.

ESI's can get outraged when someone tells them something they don't agree with. LSI's can be told anything at all, as long as it is the truth.

LSI's can make formidable technical writers, while ESI's are much better at vetting a given document for consistency.

LSI's often have encyclopedic knowledge of medicine or biology, while ESI's do not.

This last difference, along with your name, is the reason I think you are LSI.

[ashlesha]

I think the above list is based on personal pattern observation over time, and this will be the way many questions generally will be approached, but experiences will vary. For example, my ESI cousin went through a period where she would ONLY wear black, white, and red, lol. This kind of approach to answering your question might still provide a gestalt that is useful to you (in spite of it's idiosyncratic inaccuracy) but I'm thinking about an approach that, alternatively, offers prioritization about what to analyze within the established materials. Ie focus on reinin, or something. (Meh on that.) I think a deep dive into the elements like Ti vs Fi, maybe? They're similar, but one is explicit (Ti) and the other implicit (Fi). With Fi, with the hard time you can have verbalizing understandable justifications, there can be a logic performed that, if pressured a lot, will eventually throw up it's hands at the fact that the other person just doesn't get the "obvious" that you can clearly just "get" (ie feel,lol). The path of your conclusions doesn't tend to trace like, on paper, very well. (Even if you're always right lol)

[ashlesha]

PS if you "certainly lack" Fe, that would not be any ethical type, because of the unconscious strengths. However, I'm ESI and I would say the same (before seeing myself on video! Have you done that?)

[Aramas]

ESIs are petty and hold grudges.

Sorry. That's my bitterness creeping out.

[ashlesha]

I'm sure that as somebody able to self-type as an MBTI sensor, you're used to navigating through biases and misconceptions and stuff, lol. *self soothes*

[Aramas]

I'm sure that as somebody able to self-type as an MBTI sensor, you're used to navigating through biases and misconceptions and stuff, lol. *self soothes*

In your defense, you seem genuinely nice.

[FreelancePoliceman]

My experience has been that LSIs can be quite critical and negative, and that they tend to be also fairly quiet and withdrawn most of the time -- if you're a believer in Enneagram, they seem mostly to be 5s and 6s. They generally have an attitude of "just get it done" toward work, and don't tend to complain too much if they're physically and mentally pushed to their limits, but on the other hand will often release brief torrents of criticism and complaints at any subject that irritates them.

ESIs are critical in a way, but in a more Fi-sense; for instance, they might instantly take a dislike (or a liking, but this seems somewhat less common, I think) to someone, for any number of reasons. But this kind of "negativity" seems much more surface-level than with LSIs, and passes quickly. I'm not entirely sure what their inner world is actually like, but they seem to generally have an attitude of "OK" to most things -- I think Fe-valuers at least might perceive them as having a blasé attitude toward life. IME, ESIs' Enneagram types seem mostly to be 3s, 6s, and 9s, in no particular order.

If you're a type 1, I'd think LSI to be probably more likely.

[Arthrospira]

@Adam Strange

Yes I’m a female, what gave it away? Communicating with men comes easier to me but my friends tend to be quite sensitive. I’m always interested in learning practical things like using tools so that I can be self-sufficient. I study medicine, that’s why I’m knowledgeable in that regard.

@ashlesha

Well I think I lack Fe because I sometimes accidentally offend people and not realize unless someone points it out. It happens with my INFP best friend quite a lot. Also an INFJ close to me usually calls me insensitive even though I don’t mean to be. In videos if there are people close to me I laugh and joke quite a lot, but if I’m alone or with acquaintances I have a poker face or look angry. I’m not a really empathetic person when it comes to simply emotions, but if there is some injustice or insult towards a person I can get quite angry in their place.

My principles and justifications are actually quite straight-forward, just not terribly pragmatic. They are things like not lying, not littering, not cheating in class/games, not touching other peoples belongings without asking, stuff like that. I’ve been called an idiot more than once because I refuse to lie even when not doing so would obviously cost me. Also people say it’s easy to guess my reactions.

@Aramas

Well, I DO hold grudges and don’t feel terrible cutting someone out of my life if I feel justified.

@FreelancePoliceman

I’m super critical and a pessimist, I try to keep my whining to a minimum but my dissatisfaction tends to seep through my speech or my facial expressions.

I guess me being a 1w9 is what confused me in regards of Fi and Ti. I’m more likely to be an LSI I guess.

Thank you everyone for your responses! By the way does anyone have an answer to my 6 fix question?

[Adam Strange]

@Adam Strange

Yes I’m a female, what gave it away? Communicating with men comes easier to me but my friends tend to be quite sensitive. I’m always interested in learning practical things like using tools so that I can be self-sufficient. I study medicine, that’s why I’m knowledgeable in that regard.

@ashlesha

Well I think I lack Fe because I sometimes accidentally offend people and not realize unless someone points it out. It happens with my INFP best friend quite a lot. Also an INFJ close to me usually calls me insensitive even though I don’t mean to be. In videos if there are people close to me I laugh and joke quite a lot, but if I’m alone or with acquaintances I have a poker face or look angry. I’m not a really empathetic person when it comes to simply emotions, but if there is some injustice or insult towards a person I can get quite angry in their place.

My principles and justifications are actually quite straight-forward, just not terribly pragmatic. They are things like not lying, not littering, not cheating in class/games, not touching other peoples belongings without asking, stuff like that. I’ve been called an idiot more than once because I refuse to lie even when not doing so would obviously cost me. Also people say it’s easy to guess my reactions.

@Aramas

Well, I DO hold grudges and don’t feel terrible cutting someone out of my life if I feel justified.

@FreelancePoliceman

I’m super critical and a pessimist, I try to keep my whining to a minimum but my dissatisfaction tends to seep through my speech or my facial expressions.

I guess me being a 1w9 is what confused me in regards of Fi and Ti. I’m more likely to be an LSI I guess.

Thank you everyone for your responses! By the way does anyone have an answer to my 6 fix question?

@Arthrospira, I had an LSI GF who was clearly an e6. I don't think that either "phobic" or "counter-phobic" fit her the way it does ESI's. I think your explanation is more accurate.

"I don’t seek out confrontations but refuse to back down when they happen."

[ashlesha]

Reminds me of making this thread a couple years ago, cuz as far as I could tell it was a blend and not a distinct category. I think it is, for me too, anyway.

FWIW though, I'm accumulating (an uncompleted) LSI impression. Maybe after work I'll try to convert vibes into logic and explain why.

[Arthrospira]

I guess it’d be best to call it a spectrum. I’m not that great with functions but maybe PoLR-Ne gives me that constant anxiety/security seeking, Creative-Se not trying to avoid confrontations/standing up for myself, being an introvert so that I don’t go around starting fights. I’m also comfortable arguing with people if I’m in the right in a legal sense. All that would probably put me in the middle/leaning cp. But if I look at my instincts I’m supposed to be extremely phobic.

Could the placement of Se in the stack along with the entire trifix be what determines c/cp?

I'm sure that as somebody able to self-type as an MBTI sensor, you're used to navigating through biases and misconceptions and stuff, lol. *self soothes*

Well after reading the forums about XSI I can safely say that nobody likes us here either
Are you also an ISFJ in MBTI or some other type?

[ashlesha]

Are you also an ISFJ in MBTI or some other type?

I'm not involved with MBTI enough to be dedicated to a type, but when it comes up I'm ISFP for convenience because I relate to Fi (not because I'm arty and flighty, or whatever). I relate somewhat to all the IJ types, though, and at first I typed INFP but in my most recent testing marathon a couple years ago, ISTJ was consistent.

You're welcome for the unnecessarily convoluted answer.

[Adam Strange]

I guess it’d be best to call it a spectrum. I’m not that great with functions but maybe PoLR-Ne gives me that constant anxiety/security seeking, Creative-Se not trying to avoid confrontations/standing up for myself, being an introvert so that I don’t go around starting fights. I’m also comfortable arguing with people if I’m in the right in a legal sense. All that would probably put me in the middle/leaning cp. But if I look at my instincts I’m supposed to be extremely phobic.

Could the placement of Se in the stack along with the entire trifix be what determines c/cp?



Well after reading the forums about XSI I can safely say that nobody likes us here either
Are you also an ISFJ in MBTI or some other type?

Hah! I like LSI's. I like them entirely too much for my own good.

I also like ESI's, but they are harder to get to like me back. Lol.

[The Reality Denialist]

Some LSI's can give very long winded mono manic causalistic analysis to a problem which might lead people to think that he is the head figure of the concentration camp on some remote island.
ESI's tend to size you up.

[Rebelondeck]

LSIs are very literal. Only quantifiable things are acceptable and only quantifiable things are produced; there's very little ambiguity with them at all.
ESIs prefer quantifiable input but often don't produce it for others; they can be quite ambiguous but hate it when someone else is. They seem to turn quantifiable information into the qualitative, which can make them rather inventive in an artistic sense.
ESIs tend to have much thinner skins and seem less confident in themselves than LSIs, but this can be all for show. LSIs seem far more rigid, inflexible and or regimented while ESIs have a soft outer layer that covers an equally hard interior. To tell them apart, look for a soft coat, and if it's not there, think LSI......

a.k.a. I/O

[Disturbed]

My experience has been that LSIs can be quite critical and negative, and that they tend to be also fairly quiet and withdrawn most of the time -- if you're a believer in Enneagram, they seem mostly to be 5s and 6s. They generally have an attitude of "just get it done" toward work, and don't tend to complain too much if they're physically and mentally pushed to their limits, but on the other hand will often release brief torrents of criticism and complaints at any subject that irritates them.

ESIs are critical in a way, but in a more Fi-sense; for instance, they might instantly take a dislike (or a liking, but this seems somewhat less common, I think) to someone, for any number of reasons. But this kind of "negativity" seems much more surface-level than with LSIs, and passes quickly. I'm not entirely sure what their inner world is actually like, but they seem to generally have an attitude of "OK" to most things -- I think Fe-valuers at least might perceive them as having a blasé attitude toward life. IME, ESIs' Enneagram types seem mostly to be 3s, 6s, and 9s, in no particular order.

If you're a type 1, I'd think LSI to be probably more likely.

I hope you're well. I'm not an LSI but I'm critical and negative and somewhat withdrawn (but not quiet), but how withdrawn or outgoing I am depends how stimulating the other person is to my body and how my emotional state is or who or what's beautiful and not. Negativity is not surface level and doesn't pass quickly with the ESI-Fi, only with the ESI-Se. My loathing is felt deeply, but it is hard for me to hate someone for a long time other than myself or someone who is really annoying and intrusive and ridiculous like I am. I often do dislike people at first then I come to be okay with them or maybe even love them. I don't want to ever hate, it's always bad. Thank you. Sorry.

LSIs are very literal. Only quantifiable things are acceptable and only quantifiable things are produced; there's very little ambiguity with them at all.
ESIs prefer quantifiable input but often don't produce it for others; they can be quite ambiguous but hate it when someone else is. They seem to turn quantifiable information into the qualitative, which can make them rather inventive in an artistic sense.
ESIs tend to have much thinner skins and seem less confident in themselves than LSIs, but this can be all for show. LSIs seem far more rigid, inflexible and or regimented while ESIs have a soft outer layer that covers an equally hard interior. To tell them apart, look for a soft coat, and if it's not there, think LSI......

a.k.a. I/O

I hope you are well.
I'm generally unconfident in my abilities but not usually in my opinions and observations. ESI-Fi are far more rigid than LSI-Se. The soft out layer is only there in the ESI-Se, the ESI-Fi is quite frequently reactive, they verbalize their anger, and ESI-Fi males are a lot more sexually aggressive than ESI-Se males (for females it's the other way around) and complain and criticize people a lot; other than the much more piercing gaze, ESI-Se are far warmer and friendlier. What did you mean by hard interior? I'm really curious what you meant by that. It seems to me like your ESI description of ESI-Se is ESI-Fi turned inside out.

I can't stress enough how much of an omission subtypes were from the original theory.

I guess ESI-Se is more common than ESI-Fi and LSI-Ti is more common than LSI-Se. Vera Stratiyevskaya described the Sensory subtype for the ESI and the Logical Subtype for the LSI (some LSI-Se are quite independent) but her article of the ILE-ESI conflicting is much more how ESI-Se independently are. ESI-Se are generally popular in her main article on them, she made it sound like people generally don't like them. They are generally friendly and their behavior towards others isn't influenced by hate or love much.

Thank you. Sorry.

[Lolita]

There is no “conversion” from MBTI to Socionics since they’re different systems even though they claim to take their foundation from Jung. There’s some common trends between the types but they’re just general and not to be taken as rules. You have have to determine what you are in the separate systems and consider both as part of your psychological makeup and not integrate the types together since they’re structurally different.

If you read Keirsey, and compare to socionics, ISTJ is actually more like LSI, especially the rational subtypes (D and N from Dr.DarkAngelFireWolf69). However some ISTP are LSI, like SGF. Jung might be casually typed INFJ but he is actually ISTP LSI. To understand Jung and socionics, more complex MBTI, it’s not a secret that the person has to be strong with Ti, since these are theoretical systems that were created by Ti leads (LSI is actually the most common type in the analytical psychology profession).

I’m ESTP and SEE. Keirsey’s portrait of ESTP actually reads like SEE and although it’s generally accepted that it’s common for MBTI ESTP to be SEE, a good number are actually EIE and even LSE and there’s only a very few who are SLE (I’m friends with such a combo ESTP SLE). ENTJ reads like SLE (aka the Fieldmarshal). ESFP reads like ESE, like Homer Simpson. Etc. There is no MBTI version of ESI, they just are ESI. There’s no easy conversion to understanding any of this. You have to do a lot of unpacking in the separate systems to even compare them.

[SGF]

Some LSI's can give very long winded mono manic causalistic analysis to a problem which might lead people to think that he is the head figure of the concentration camp on some remote island.
ESI's tend to size you up.

:/ it is rather common for people to call me "arrogant" because I argue as if I'm absolutely right.. and crush their ideals with bitter realism.

You can easily spot LSI by their Fe vulnerable.



It would be beneficial to assess how you act when you are in a group of people.

Yeah. Without that I'm too polite and rigid. In a welcoming Fe environment its like I'm a different person.

ESIs however seem more soulful by default, they don't seem to put on a mask of friendliness (role Fi in LSI).

The more comfortable I am with people, the more I get to know them.. the harsher I seem to get, the friendly mask falls off and I start becoming more and more myself as I stop worrying about stepping on other people's DFi and can just speak my mind... which again may come off as "arrogant".

There is no “conversion” from MBTI to Socionics since they’re different systems even though they claim to take their foundation from Jung. There’s some common trends between the types but they’re just general and not to be taken as rules. You have have to determine what you are in the separate systems and consider both as part of your psychological makeup and not integrate the types together since they’re structurally different.

If you read Keirsey, and compare to socionics, ISTJ is actually more like LSI, especially the rational subtypes (D and N from Dr.DarkAngelFireWolf69). However some ISTP are LSI, like SGF. Jung might be casually typed INFJ but he is actually ISTP LSI. To understand Jung and socionics, more complex MBTI, it’s not a secret that the person has to be strong with Ti, since these are theoretical systems that were created by Ti leads (LSI is actually the most common type in the analytical psychology profession).

On Keirsey's test I actually test as ISTJ, its the only MBTI-ish test I score J on tbh. When it comes to descriptions tho I could add about 75% of Keirsey's ISTP to the type description and subtract some of the ISTJ's rigidity.. that would be me. I used to be confused as to why I type as ISTJ Guardian inspector on Keirsey's test and INTP on other tests.

I’m ESTP and SEE. Keirsey’s portrait of ESTP actually reads like SEE and although it’s generally accepted that it’s common for MBTI ESTP to be SEE, a good number are actually EIE and even LSE and there’s only a very few who are SLE (I’m friends with such a combo ESTP SLE). ENTJ reads like SLE (aka the Fieldmarshal). ESFP reads like ESE, like Homer Simpson. Etc. There is no MBTI version of ESI, they just are ESI. There’s no easy conversion to understanding any of this. You have to do a lot of unpacking in the separate systems to even compare them.

yeah I agree. Including you I have known many SEE's who think they are ESTP. I also know one self typed ESTP who got officially typed as EIE-N. Even I as LSI have a side to me that is more IEI, minus all the Te problems IEIs have ofc.

[Rebelondeck]

........ ESI-Fi are far more rigid than LSI-Se. The soft out layer is only there in the ESI-Se, the ESI-Fi is quite frequently reactive, they verbalize their anger, and ESI-Fi males are a lot more sexually aggressive than ESI-Se males (for females it's the other way around) and complain and criticize people a lot; other than the much more piercing gaze, ESI-Se are far warmer and friendlier. What did you mean by hard interior? I'm really curious what you meant by that. It seems to me like your ESI description of ESI-Se is ESI-Fi turned inside out..........

You quoted me but your comments referred to subtypes and what Stratiyevskaya said so I'm assuming by the deflection that you're simply not agreeing with anything that I said. A hard interior refers to a detached, objective (cold) view of life where only their rationalizations of (feelings about) things are considered valid. ESI, ESI-Se and ESI-Fi don't often accept other peoples' opinions at face value although many may give outward appearances that they do. Regardless of subtypes, ESIs handle information in the same rigid fashion (similar in structure to LSIs); one has to look below appearances to see thinking processes, preferences and priorities.

a.k.a. I/O

[Disturbed]

You quoted me but your comments referred to subtypes and what Stratiyevskaya said so I'm assuming by the deflection that you're simply not agreeing with anything that I said. A hard interior refers to a detached, objective (cold) view of life where only their rationalizations of (feelings about) things are considered valid. ESI, ESI-Se and ESI-Fi don't often accept other peoples' opinions at face value although many may give outward appearances that they do. Regardless of subtypes, ESIs handle information in the same rigid fashion (similar in structure to LSIs); one has to look below appearances to see thinking processes, preferences and priorities.

a.k.a. I/O

Well Thank you! I agreed with some of what you said since we were both making generalizations, but I just saw what said as applying more to ESI-Se. When I said that I did abstract out prominent ESI-Se who were far from externally soft like, say, christopher hitchens. Some seem to go between sweet and salty (eminem), and I tend to go between salty and sweet as well, depending on how negative my internal state is. I ultimately prefer make my decisions based upon my own likes, dislikes, and principles (I prefer to keep Fe exactly as my ignoring function) and feel offended when someone tries to impose their opinion on me (especially if they're expressing extremes about my inabilities even though I do) or what I need or don't need but I don't know if that makes me have a hard interior.

[mfckrz]

For the past month I’ve been trying to type myself and managed narrow it down to those two. Tests give me the LSI-Ti result but I can’t be certain as ESI-Se is also extremely relatable. I don’t quite understand whether having rigid moral principles and not compromising them have to do with Ti or Fi.

Explicable morality in terms codified principles is more characteristic of Ti.

ESI doesn't preen over this much—for them, personal feelings are essentially self-evident truths and they're not going to reason with anyone about it.

[SGF]

Explicable morality in terms codified principles is more characteristic of Ti.

ESI doesn't preen over this much—for them, personal feelings are essentially self-evident truths and they're not going to reason with anyone about it.

:/ if one's morality has no logical foundation and one can't argue for it's validity ...those are just subjective preferences... how is that morality? e_e wtf..

[Rebelondeck]

........ but I don't know if that makes me have a hard interior.

When it comes to choosing between theirs or mine, Ijs will usually chose the latter regardless of subtype - unless perhaps it's family but even then. ESIs tend to have a bigger what's-in-it-for-me attitude (similar to SEEs). They seem more adept at rising above the animalistic fray than can LSIs who may present tough exteriors but tend to be more emotionally vulnerable. Fi-types are best equipped to mentally distance themselves from problematic relationships; however, they tend to have trouble seeing and or dealing with their own emotional baggage, which often becomes problematic for those close to them. Many ESIs think of themselves as soft on the inside because of this inability but the emotional issues of others are not usually stressful to them unless it's directed at them.

a.k.a. I/O

[mfckrz]

:/ if one's morality has no logical foundation and one can't argue for it's validity ...those are just subjective preferences... how is that morality? e_e wtf..

You're not wrong… I wouldn't exactly call it 'morality' either.

There is an underlying order to it, but the foundation is one of sentiment as opposed to reason—a kind of 'passional logic'.

To whatever extent this happens to coincide with prevailing morality is purely incidental.

[Lolita]

yeah I agree. Including you I have known many SEE's who think they are ESTP. I also know one self typed ESTP who got officially typed as EIE-N. Even I as LSI have a side to me that is more IEI, minus all the Te problems IEIs have ofc.

That’s because MBTI ESTP and SEE are weak with Te. I’m weak with Te in the area where if I have to come up from scratch how to execute plans, that’s problematic. I won’t know how to do something until I’m forced in the moment. Te has to serve my Se. I’m resourceful but not executive, not managerial. I can organize and improve upon what already exists but if you want me to teach you step by step on how to arrive at a conclusion, that’s going to be difficult for me to explain. I can work things with Ti no problems, I even create my own systems of organizing large bodies of information (like when I worked in my law office job and I came up with how to cross reference cases based on 5 different factors) but Te, that’s another thing. I’m not good at the pure efficiency and practical side of controlling resources and information. So I cannot exactly explain how and why I came up with what I did. All I know is it makes sense. This has been my big question I want answered which was what lead me to get typed because I wanted to know why I do what I do (a Te matter). That’s why the MBTI ESTPs often come out SEE but if they’re super focused on the emotionality aspect, they’ll be EIE In which case, I consider them delusional even from MBTI perspective because they’re still not Se dom.

[Lolita]

ESIs however seem more soulful by default, they don't seem to put on a mask of friendliness (role Fi in LSI).
The more comfortable I am with people, the more I get to know them.. the harsher I seem to get, the friendly mask falls off and I start becoming more and more myself as I stop worrying about stepping on other people's DFi and can just speak my mind... which again may come off as "arrogant".

LOL I wouldn’t say ESI are soulful, although they seem to believe they are and much more pure and holier-than-thou than anyone. They are the opposite of LSI that in the beginning, they’re very distant and want to scrutinize before they decide how the relationship with be. Once they’ve decided that you’re worthy, you really can’t get rid of them, even if you try hard. If you’ve succeeded, then they’ll give you the silent treatment (which is ironic because SLE wants that and gets an easy escape from their supervisor lol). ESI will be by your side for all eternity, lecturing you for being stupid if they have to. But very rare would they give you up. Maybe throw you to the wolves to teach you a lesson, but not leave you. It’s the high dimensional Fi, duty kicks in. Even if you do stupid things, that won’t break the Fi bond with them once it’s been established. LSI has weak Fi and although they would want to be resilient with others and stick by those they care about, it’s harder for them to go through though times with people for longer periods because it wears them down. So as time goes on, Fi bonds grow stronger, but Ti becomes more alienated and detached.

On Keirsey's test I actually test as ISTJ, its the only MBTI-ish test I score J on tbh. When it comes to descriptions tho I could add about 75% of Keirsey's ISTP to the type description and subtract some of the ISTJ's rigidity.. that would be me. I used to be confused as to why I type as ISTJ Guardian inspector on Keirsey's test and INTP on other tests.

Keirsey’s MBTI portraits are actually pretty good, detailed. Considering that Keirsey was the first psychologist to write about MBTI cognition since Myers Briggs had no scientific nor psychological training whatsoever. They were just obsessed NFs who wanted to judge people based on their shallow interests. I think Keirsey would be LII (probably N sub). The portrait he wrote of INTP is modeled after his son, a dead on ILI (probably also N sub). I mean you can basically take his portraits and match it up to socionics types with clarity (minus the functions).

ISTJ is orderly and rigid, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. So they like having things be just a certain way, I mean they’re technically “guardians” of order. And if we don’t have order, then there’s chaos so the role that ISTJ/LSI play is actually pretty crucial to stabilizing society. LSI is the stabilizer (that’s literally what the role is called) in Beta Quadra and their job is to fortify Beta Quadra values and interests and serve as huge contrast to EIE as Beta Quadra leader. They both have strong Si to stabilize. That’s something worth noting.

Keirsey’s ESTP is pretty bang on for me, except for the stupid emotive shit. It’s important to note that Keirsey made a point that the emotive stuff is to help the ESTP get what they want from the material world (Se) and it’s not for theatrics. The ESTP is actually deliberate underneath the friendly exterior and they’re most realistic type, so they’re actually calculating despite showing the world that they’re not. There’s some aspects from ENTJ fieldmarshal that suits me (like determined to win) but overall, ESTP fits me with the highest percentage (selfishness, hustler mentality, taking risks, chasing thrills, etc.). It’s interesting to note that Keirsey said some 90% of juvenile delinquents are ESTP. I don’t necessarily think that’s an exaggeration. I was a delinquent, just wasn’t ever caught and punished for it.

[FreelancePoliceman]

:/ if one's morality has no logical foundation and one can't argue for it's validity ...those are just subjective preferences... how is that morality? e_e wtf..

Logic can tell you the best way to do something, but not what you should do.

[SGF]

Logic can tell you the best way to do something, but not what you should do.

Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law.

Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of any other, never merely as a means to an end, but always at the same time as an end.

Thus the third practical principle follows [from the first two] as the ultimate condition of their harmony with practical reason: the idea of the will of every rational being as a universally legislating will.

e_e.. yes it can. By applying it to the context of the situation you have your limited range of actions to chose from. It is certainly superior to going with "what I feel is right". What I feel is right might be brutal murder.

Outcomes however cannot be controlled. Causality is a thing and there are too many variables to keep track of to ensure a positive outcome, which makes intent important.

[FreelancePoliceman]

Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law.

Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of any other, never merely as a means to an end, but always at the same time as an end.

Thus the third practical principle follows [from the first two] as the ultimate condition of their harmony with practical reason: the idea of the will of every rational being as a universally legislating will.

e_e.. yes it can. By applying it to the context of the situation you have your limited range of actions to chose from. It is certainly superior to going with "what I feel is right". What I feel is right might be brutal murder.

Outcomes however cannot be controlled. Causality is a thing and there are too many variables to keep track of to ensure a positive outcome, which makes intent important.

If you were living under Nazi rule and harboring a Jewish family in your attic, and a Nazi came to ask you whether you were harboring any Jews, would you say "yes?" If you say "yes", you're (indirectly) causing brutal murder, but if you say "no", you're no longer a disciple of Kant. What do you do?

[SGF]

Keirsey’s MBTI portraits are actually pretty good, detailed. Considering that Keirsey was the first psychologist to write about MBTI cognition since Myers Briggs had no scientific nor psychological training whatsoever. They were just obsessed NFs who wanted to judge people based on their shallow interests. I think Keirsey would be LII (probably N sub). The portrait he wrote of INTP is modeled after his son, a dead on ILI (probably also N sub). I mean you can basically take his portraits and match it up to socionics types with clarity (minus the functions).

His ideas seem directly taken from Plato's Republic tbh. Same concepts, same structure.

ISTJ is orderly and rigid, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. So they like having things be just a certain way, I mean they’re technically “guardians” of order. And if we don’t have order, then there’s chaos so the role that ISTJ/LSI play is actually pretty crucial to stabilizing society. LSI is the stabilizer (that’s literally what the role is called) in Beta Quadra and their job is to fortify Beta Quadra values and interests and serve as huge contrast to EIE as Beta Quadra leader. They both have strong Si to stabilize. That’s something worth noting.

I have always seen myself as more of a destroyer, critic and revolutionary. "Burn it all down, from the ashes we will rise again.. greater than ever!"



[Verse 1]
This city shall bring a purifying fire
For the world entire and of all of our sin
Of its beauty and splendor now and forever
So now watch us try and reconcile sword and mind

[Chorus]
A new world is calling (Immer wieder!)
For a new unfolding (Immer wieder!)
A new man crawling up from behind
A new world is calling (Immer wieder!)
For a new unfolding (Immer wieder!)
A new man crawling out into light

[Verse 2]
When all beauty is tarnished, when all thought is profaned
They'll cry out for men to invoke the iron rods again
Now this our secret flame will illuminate the night
And its sparks fly on the wind and set the world alight

[Chorus]
A new world is calling (Immer wieder!)
For a new unfolding (Immer wieder!)
A new man crawling up from behind
A new world is calling (Immer wieder!)
For a new unfolding (Immer wieder!)
A new man crawling out into light
[Bridge]
Immer wieder!
Widerstand!
Immer wieder!
Widerstand!
Immer wieder!
Widerstand!
Immer wieder!
Widerstand!

[Pre-Chorus]
A new world is calling
For a new unfolding
A new man crawling out into light

[Chorus]
A new world is calling (Immer wieder!)
For a new unfolding (Immer wieder!)
A new man crawling up from behind
A new world is calling (Immer wieder!)
For a new unfolding (Immer wieder!)
A new man crawling out into light
A new world is calling (Immer wieder!)
For a new unfolding (Immer wieder!)
A new man crawling out into light

[Lolita]

I have always seen myself as more of a destroyer, critic and revolutionary. "Burn it all down, from the ashes we will rise again.. greater than ever!"

LOL Beta Quadra is all about revolutions but even in the most warlike Quadra, LSI serves as its society’s stabilizer. You can keep the gangs wars going at a steady rate.

As Gamma Hannah Arendt has aptly assessed,
“Revolutionaries do not make revolutions! The revolutionaries are those who know when power is lying in the street and when they can pick it up. Armed uprising by itself has never yet led to revolution.”

[Adam Strange]

If you were living under Nazi rule and harboring a Jewish family in your attic, and a Nazi came to ask you whether you were harboring any Jews, would you say "yes?" If you say "yes", you're (indirectly) causing brutal murder, but if you say "no", you're no longer a disciple of Kant. What do you do?

I was talking to an ESI about my brushes with the law around the world. She said that, during a tour of Israel at a time when US-Israeli relations weren't the greatest, she was in an alley and an Israeli asked her what country she was from. She lied and said "Canada."

I would not have lied. I'd have relied on either my own resources or the State department to get me out of trouble. However, in response to the Nazi question, I'd have lied.

[Lolita]

I was talking to an ESI about my brushes with the law around the world. She said that, during a tour of Israel at a time when US-Israeli relations weren't the greatest, she was in an alley and an Israeli asked her what country she was from. She lied and said "Canada."

I would not have lied. I'd have relied on either my own resources or the State department to get me out of trouble. However, in response to the Nazi question, I'd have lied.

That’s what naive, dumb Alphas would do. Who the hell would put themselves at risk by wasting time expecting someone else to bust you out.

[FreelancePoliceman]

I was talking to an ESI about my brushes with the law around the world. She said that, during a tour of Israel at a time when US-Israeli relations weren't the greatest, she was in an alley and an Israeli asked her what country she was from. She lied and said "Canada."

I would not have lied. I'd have relied on either my own resources or the State department to get me out of trouble. However, in response to the Nazi question, I'd have lied.

[FreelancePoliceman]

That’s what naive, dumb Alphas would do. Who the hell would put themselves at risk by wasting time expecting someone else to bust you out.

Is there any reason you think Alphas would be particularly likely not to lie in self-defense aside from being naive and dumb? Just curious.

[Adam Strange]

That’s what naive, dumb Alphas would do. Who the hell would put themselves at risk by wasting time expecting someone else to bust you out.

It depends on the regime. Some places only respect you if you have balls. Although stupidity can look a lot like fearlessness.

Lets say you have been picked up by the military for not having permission to be in that country and are being interrogated at 3 AM in a basement cell in the middle of the jungle. If you appear to be American, and fearless, your interrogators are going to wonder why you appear fearless. They may even return all your papers, apologize, and let you go on your way.

One thing that travel taught me is that in some countries, the Law is above Men, and in other countries, some Men are above the Law. And which countries are which are not always the ones you might expect.

[SGF]

If you were living under Nazi rule and harboring a Jewish family in your attic, and a Nazi came to ask you whether you were harboring any Jews, would you say "yes?" If you say "yes", you're (indirectly) causing brutal murder, but if you say "no", you're no longer a disciple of Kant. What do you do?

escape with them out the back be4 the Nazis bust in my door. Duh. Say nothing.

>b-but you must comply with the limited options I have given you!

No ! e_e

LOL Beta Quadra is all about revolutions but even in the most warlike Quadra, LSI serves as its society’s stabilizer. You can keep the gangs wars going at a steady rate.

As Gamma Hannah Arendt has aptly assessed,
“Revolutionaries do not make revolutions! The revolutionaries are those who know when power is lying in the street and when they can pick it up. Armed uprising by itself has never yet led to revolution.”

See Elon Musk LSI, revolutionizing energy, automotive industry, spaceflight, tunneling, brain-machine interface and so on.. using things everyone already knew for decades. Its usually Alphas who seem to invent the means and betas who put them to use.

[mfckrz]

See Elon Musk LSI

LSI? He's a living meme of LIE.

[Lolita]

Elon Musk LSI, revolutionizing energy, automotive industry, spaceflight, tunneling, brain-machine interface and so on.. using things everyone already knew for decades. Its usually Alphas who seem to invent the means and betas who put them to use.

I doubt Elon Musk is LSI as there’s too much Ne coming from him and I’m hard pressed to be convinced that he would be C sub. I’ll ask G about that and see what he says.