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Thread: Bullying/Abuse

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    Default Bullying/Abuse

    Hypothesis: whenever a happy person and a sad person get into a conflict, they both call each other bullies or abusive, because the sad person thinks the happy one is immoral, and the happy one thinks the sad one is envious. In reality, it's nothing like someone with an actual rank abusing power, such as a sergeant abusing a private, but simply a conflict between an adaptive and maladaptive value system. Thus do people sabotage themselves.

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    In other cases the abuser could just be a physiological psychopath. I just learned my step-dad who made my teenage years hell was one. He had explosive anger issues and you could never be comfortable around him because any little thing could make him blow his top. Living with him got me into the bad habit of locking myself in my room and made me more fearful of people in general. Don't ever get stuck living with a psychopath.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    In other cases the abuser could just be a physiological psychopath. I just learned my step-dad who made my teenage years hell was one. He had explosive anger issues and you could never be comfortable around him because any little thing could make him blow his top. Living with him got me into the bad habit of locking myself in my room and made me more fearful of people in general. Don't ever get stuck living with a psychopath.
    Explosively angry people are unhappy, but in either case just walk away. The thing I noticed is abusive people usually call the abusee abusive and it's usually true so they should just walk away and be happy and the proactive abuser will be miserable alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    In other cases the abuser could just be a physiological psychopath. I just learned my step-dad who made my teenage years hell was one. He had explosive anger issues and you could never be comfortable around him because any little thing could make him blow his top. Living with him got me into the bad habit of locking myself in my room and made me more fearful of people in general. Don't ever get stuck living with a psychopath.
    My dad used to be like this. I swore id never become like him but i find myself engaging in similar behaviour now..
    Last edited by Number 9 large; 01-09-2020 at 02:06 PM.

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    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    My dad used to be like this. I swore id never become like him but i find myself engaging in similar behaviour now..
    @Number 9 large, this is called "Identification with the Victor". You can look it up. It's very common, but it isn't inevitable.

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    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    "Identification with the aggressor"

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    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    Is this hypothesis predicated on anything? I think it's normal in any conflict to think the other person is The Bad Guy, but the following things are wooooosh to me:
    1. Every single conflict resulting in unfounded accusations of abuse
    2. Wholesale sorting of everybody (at least those involved in conflicts) into "happy" and "sad" categories

    There might be something to accusations of immorality versus accusations of envy. I tend to feel/do the former in so many words lol (just how it is, in my perception) whereas the latter is something that frequently gets thrown out and I think of it as almost always self-serving and absurd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bananapeel View Post
    So if a person is sad, or unhappy.... in your view, this amounts to having a maladaptive value system?
    But isn't the point of sadness, or unhappiness, to compel change... i.e. if your hand is near a flame, you feel pain and remove it. And if you didn't feel pain, wouldn't this be maladaptive... you would keep your hand over the flame; and if you never felt sad or unhappy, wouldn't you be ignoring all the problems in the world and all the need for change that exists? So at times happiness is maladaptive.
    Contentedness can be maladaptive, but actual joy is usually not. I don't buy these kinds of slave moralities where you have to be miserable or else you're evil. That idea is itself evil, if anything. People used to say things like "an evil stench" to mean strongly unpleasant odors back when people were more adapted to reality rather than insane and delusional like now. In the end, unhappiness is all "evil" is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bananapeel View Post
    A person can be happy on a superficial level, they can be sad on a superficial level ... they can be unhappy, but yet their core being is not disturbed and they can wither the storm. But what we're talking about are circumstantial emotions... if you pull your hand off the flame the pain goes away. If you implement change, the unhappiness goes away. These are superficial emotions, they're not deeply held, core emotions because they're based on circumstances outside yourself and they can be changed.
    I'm not telling you that you have to be miserable, I'm telling you that if your hand is over a flame you have to be miserable enough to move it off. And that's actually just physics, and nature. To say that is "evil and bad" is just... unreasonable. Is it bad for you to be aware of the need to do good?
    In the same way, when your mom dies, you should be sad... if you're normal, you will be. But it might not shake the very core of your being - you will be strong enough to wither the difficulty.
    Your brain has emotions wired into it, the emotions are there for a reason. Why did nature produce such things?
    You need to read a lot more. I'm going to just ignore this since it's "weather" not "wither" and normality is for losers. Bill Gates, Einstein, Beethoven, Elvis, and Marie Curie were very normal people... not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    The thing I noticed is abusive people usually call the abusee abusive and it's usually true so they should just walk away and be happy and the proactive abuser will be miserable alone.
    I very much doubt this is what was going on in the case of @Muddy and I don't think it's the most sensitive way to respond to their post but you bring up a very good point that abusers often play the victim in an attempt to gaslight the actual victim and keep them in the cycle of abuse. Whether or not this is done intentionally is dependent on how evil the individual doing it is in each case. I genuinely think some abusers are not aware of how their actions effect other people. It sounds silly but there are people that are genuinely that out of touch for a myriad of reasons.
    Everything happens for a reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sumdumho View Post
    I very much doubt this is what was going on in the case of @Muddy and I don't think it's the most sensitive way to respond to their post but you bring up a very good point that abusers often play the victim in an attempt to gaslight the actual victim and keep them in the cycle of abuse. Whether or not this is done intentionally is dependent on how evil the individual doing it is in each case. I genuinely think some abusers are not aware of how their actions effect other people. It sounds silly but there are people that are genuinely that out of touch for a myriad of reasons.
    When I was about 17, I told my mother that I hated her. She punched me in the face so hard that she broke a vein in her hand. Of course, her damaged hand was my fault. I guess my face got in the way of her fist.

    "You need to take responsibility for this."
    "I'm beating you because I love you."

    I could go on, but I think most people get the point.

    Step away from toxic people, especially if they are pissing on you and telling you it's raining.

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    Speaking of bullies, I was talking to a male EII today and he said that a mutual SLE acquaintance was a bully.

    I said, "No, he's just assertive."

    "He's aggressive, that's what he is. Everything he does is only for his own benefit."

    "Well, he IS an Aggressor all right." I said and smiled. Se vs Si, Infantile vs Aggressor, Conflictors circling each other without understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sumdumho View Post
    I very much doubt this is what was going on in the case of @Muddy and I don't think it's the most sensitive way to respond to their post but you bring up a very good point that abusers often play the victim in an attempt to gaslight the actual victim and keep them in the cycle of abuse. Whether or not this is done intentionally is dependent on how evil the individual doing it is in each case. I genuinely think some abusers are not aware of how their actions effect other people. It sounds silly but there are people that are genuinely that out of touch for a myriad of reasons.
    Well "sticking up for yourself" can be doing the same thing as the abuser in many cases, so even though it's not the same as proactive nastiness, leaving them alone is usually a better answer, the exception being the risk of immediate grave harm. I have no idea what @Muddy's case was like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    Well "sticking up for yourself" can be doing the same thing as the abuser in many cases, so even though it's not the same as proactive nastiness, leaving them alone is usually a better answer, the exception being the risk of immediate grave harm. I have no idea what @Muddy's case was like.
    Probably true but self defence is treated differently from manslaughter or murder under the law for moral reasons, I believe correctly so. It might not be the best reaction to stick up for oneself in such a situation but victim blaming is definitely not the most accurate analysis of the situation either. Not saying that's what you're doing, because it's not, but it's a logical end of sorts.

    I can say more about why people may pick inappropriate ways to stick up for themselves but it's more in depth than I would prefer to go with my base of knowledge on the subject.
    Everything happens for a reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sumdumho View Post
    Probably true but self defence is treated differently from manslaughter or murder under the law for moral reasons, I believe correctly so. It might not be the best reaction to stick up for oneself in such a situation but victim blaming is definitely not the most accurate analysis of the situation either. Not saying that's what you're doing, because it's not, but it's a logical end of sorts.
    No it's not. I explicitly said in cases of dire need, hit someone back who hits you. Calling someone a stupid hoe when they call you a stupid hoe, however, is not. Just tell them what you really think of them in plain terms and leave them alone.

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    “Just walk away” from the psychopath living in your home as a minor lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    “Just walk away” from the psychopath living in your home as a minor lol.
    Yes, this was exactly my problem. I could not simply "walk away" from the violence and the control. I had to learn how to deal with it without hitting her back. I did this until I went away to college, and then I was out of there like a bullet leaves a gun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @Number 9 large, this is called "Identification with the Victor". You can look it up. It's very common, but it isn't inevitable.
    I googled it but didnt get any real results? Does this have a term?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    I googled it but didnt get any real results? Does this have a term?
    I first heard that phrase from the shrink that my ex and I had been seeing for years. My ex-wife had an abusive father and I had an abusive mother, and the shrink basically said that when a parent beats up a little kid, that little kid doesn't learn to be good, instead they learn that it is OK for big people to beat up little people. So when they get big, they beat up on their own kids and think that is good parenting.

    So I, too, googled the phrase, and it looks like @ashlesha was correct. The term is "identification with the aggressor".

    https://www.simplypsychology.org/def...echanisms.html

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    Well it gets complicated, but being happy ALL the time is kinda creepy because it feels like you are cutting yourself off from other people's pain too much. Or you are trying to hide your own by going after weaker targets. People who are true spiritualist healers are not afraid to simply sit in sadness with people at times, this is true empathy rather than the faked plastered Joel Olsteen shit.

    Doing this too much of the time though is also kind of just as sadistic though, and levity is a part of life as well.

    Joy is great but there is also a healthy independence to it as well from my POV. if you yourself claim you are 'happy' but need to be around a bunch of sad losers who can't stand up for themselves in order to be happy - it is an unhealthy vampiric relationship and your joy is dependent on their misery- and so it isn't true joy it is universal misery being masqueraded as the false hope of Joy being 'somewhere in the future' as a potential possibility, instead of the here and now. Then again if you are truly joyful I guess, you do want to share it- but not to the Joel Olsteen level IMO.

    "They came back because of sadness!" - Inside Out. =D

    Also life is crazy. It will often be bleak and doomsday one day- but the next it will be calm and pretty OK. And some days are even really good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Well it gets complicated, but being happy ALL the time is kinda creepy because it feels like you are cutting yourself off from other people's pain too much. Or you are trying to hide your own by going after weaker targets. People who are true spiritualist healers are not afraid to simply sit in sadness with people at times, this is true empathy rather than the faked plastered Joel Olsteen shit.

    Doing this too much of the time though is also kind of just as sadistic though, and levity is a part of life as well.

    Joy is great but there is also a healthy independence to it as well from my POV. if you yourself claim you are 'happy' but need to be around a bunch of sad losers who can't stand up for themselves in order to be happy - it is an unhealthy vampiric relationship and your joy is dependent on their misery- and so it isn't true joy it is universal misery being masqueraded as the false hope of Joy being 'somewhere in the future' as a potential possibility, instead of the here and now. Then again if you are truly joyful I guess, you do want to share it- but not to the Joel Olsteen level IMO.

    "They came back because of sadness!" - Inside Out. =D

    Also life is crazy. It will often be bleak and doomsday one day- but the next it will be calm and pretty OK. And some days are even really good.


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