Is this normal?
Do any other Se leads get annoyed by people who lack foresight and don't think things through? Like omg how hard is it to just think for a second before you do something. I find it's usually (not all the time, but often) Si ego types that end up doing this. It's like how do they not see how what they do is going to play out, given that the course of events is always so obvious.
This sounds more like an NT, with high D Ni "foresight" and Ti "internal consistency\thinking things through," critiquing an SF, who are weaker on both of those aspects.
It's not really about consistency imo because like I don't care if someone is consistent. It becomes a huge issue when their lack of foresight ends up fucking something up for me, then it gets fully intolerable. It also, most of the time, makes them inefficient as fuck - another irritating thing. The 3 closest people in my family are all Si leads (two SLIs and an SEI) and they all suffer from this issue and it makes my life so much worse, I can't wait to move away from these people.Originally Posted by Alonzo
@Alonzo
Another thing I get really pissed off by (And you might relate to this, being same quadra) - is when people don't take anything seriously. Like my SEI mam is really annoying for this, because I'll be trying to tell her something she's done has annoyed me and she has 2 responses: 1) Treat it as a joke or 2) Dismiss it. In her mind, she is never the problem - if she sees a problem there at all.
@queentiger But that's the thing, Se leads, like an SEE, are more concerned with living/acting in the moment, relishing in the now, and subsequently taking each moment as it comes with a diminished capacity for accurately foreseeing the consequences and repercussions for how their actions might develop over time. This is why their duals are Ni leads, types that excel in that area > predicting how events will unfold. Though not impossible, it wouldn't make much sense for Se leads to bash/take issue with Si leads over their lack of foresight seeing as how both parties typically would not be too focused on "foresight" in the first place; they'd have similar blind spots and similar priorities--which for S types, is very "here and now" focused. An intuitive type is more likely to find fault with this.
Se leads are the embodiment of lack of foresight
It’s easy to speak on general terms but if you are looking for progress or solutions it’s better to be specific about what exactly you are going through. Unless you are just looking to vent, which is cool as well.
The example you brought up has nothing to with your mom’s lack of foresight as far as I can tell. She can also tell you to fuck off, it’s a valid response, so her response indicates that she wants to keep things peaceful between you two. Why do you want her to acknowledge what you see as a problem? Is it going to make you/her happier? Is is it something that you can fix personally without her involvement?
@Alonzo
I'd argue that's a false dichotomy though - acting in the moment doesn't always mean disregard for the consequences. I'd also say relishing in the now is connected to comfort and as such, Si. I'd argue there's no time for relishing in the now when action to benefit me in the future needs to be taken.
It would make me happier for her to acknowledge it, given that the crux of the issue is 18 years of being treated like shit because of her favouritism of my SLI brother. And her peace keeping is part of the issue, because it doesn't allow any room for venting and creates more resentment and passive aggressive bullshit. At this point it's hard to be specific when it happens over and over again.Se leads are the embodiment of lack of foresight
It’s easy to speak on general terms but if you are looking for progress or solutions it’s better to be specific about what exactly you are going through. Unless you are just looking to vent, which is cool as well.
The example you brought up has nothing to with your mom’s lack of foresight as far as I can tell. She can also tell you to fuck off, it’s a valid response, so her response indicates that she wants to keep things peaceful between you two. Why do you want her to acknowledge what you see as a problem? Is it going to make you/her happier? Is is it something that you can fix personally without her involvement?
What I'm talking about involves more than mere disregard; like I said, Se leads have a "diminished capacity," as in a low D function that is inherently weak and not as capable of differentiating information on that aspect, when it comes to accurately and comfortably foreseeing how their actions will unfold over time, which is why they cognitively prefer not to focus on that. Sure, everyone is concerned with their future, but the sociotypes go about dealing with that in different ways. Se leads excel at perceiving/taking in the immediate, concrete reality of their environments and acting on that "data" so as to make an impact right then and there; they repeat this same formula from moment to moment, using their sheer force of will and tactical talents to pull off a bunch of short sighted goals that eventually culminate in achieving a long term goal. Weak Se valuers don't trust our ability to act as competently in the moment, which is why we spend far more time envisioning our goals and using long term strategies to more meticulously plot the best way forward.
Yeah, I can see how "relishing in the now" can be interpreted as Si--a poor choice of words, but even so, that's not entirely unreasonable when talking about sensors because they all have strong, high D Se and Si, whether valued or not. Se leads are perfectly capable of maximizing on the potential of the moment, as far as knowing the necessary actions to take AND enjoying themselves at the same time. Se leads are often known for being top level party goers for this very reason.
I wouldn't say Se leads are the top level party goers like they are in MehBTI. I'd give that to the ESEs (mbti ESFx is basically ESE). Maybe SLEs given that they are in a merry quadra, but not SEEs. Note, a very different type to MBTI ESFP.
Another crux of the issue, it wouldn't be an annoyance if these Si goons could act competently in the moment. But they can't, and don't. Also I don't view it as extremely as presented here, because I actually think the most strategic option is to be adaptable. Have a general plan but allow that plan to be changeable I say.
I mean really, I don't see what other type I could be actually. Surely not alpha ILE, given my clear dislike for Si and people not taking things seriously. SEI has to be one of the worst types, and I honestly don't see how I can dual seek it.
And also, given that Se regards having an impact as well - it wouldn't make sense that Se lacks foresight.
I agree and can relate with you and think you’re right QT. I mean, both Se and Ni egos should value it technically anyway. It is what Ni seeking means though. I think an Se lead realizing that people who lack foresight piss them off, is one becoming “woke”, about what they value and need.
Of course, it’s not that we can complain about it too much though. As much as we might try to plan in advance, we can still overlook things sometimes. Feeling anger is a sign of what we value, that we need help, and also maybe a little bit of disappointment at ourselves, for not preventing things ourselves or finding people who could help us do it.
@queentiger
I can't really critique anyone on something I don't have as well. Altho, in a recent convo with @DarkAngelFireWizard666 we came to the conclusion that maybe why I appreciate Ni so much in others is because they provide me the insight into myself I so desperately want and need because I'm bad at it -- but it's valued. I can't really force it out of myself on my own, and for me to act upon it, it needs to be forced out somehow, via conversation or journaling. And that's best done with a Ni dom present, lol. So what you MAY be picking up on, is what I'm also frustrated with from my own ESE mother's behavior: that's not just an inability, but an unwillingness to look into oneself. SEE is about maximizing power. I will never be my truest, most powerful self, if I don't look inside and fix what gears are broken. But with her, she just really doesn't care. Or at least, she cares, but not in a way that would make her go through the painful and tedious process of talking it out with someone or drawing it out of herself, analysing it and changing her behavior. And it's a REALLY tough process.
I don't think Se dom's inability to foresee the future, or their impulsivity, always has to translate to being a party animal. There are party animals of every type, I'm sure of it, lol. And people who dislike parties of every type, too. But it's important to note that often, Se leads will choose not to go through that tedious process of... well, it feels like you're stabbing your hand inside your chest and pulling out all the disgusting pieces that make up the mess of you, and then trying to rearrange them. Yeah. It's not really fun.
Since we're on t16t, we probably have somewhat of a different appearance compared to your average SEE, statistically speaking. They don't really get into personality theory all that often, I'm guessing. But what's funny is that I was told I'm "not that active" on this forum... When by my standards, I've been spending a big chunk of my time on it. I suppose I really am more outwardly oriented when you compare me to others, even when I think I'm not.
Anyway, that was rambly.
TLDR; maybe you dislike that not bc you have foresight yourself but bc you are willing to change if given the chance and the other person isn't
Last edited by voider; 01-04-2020 at 10:13 AM. Reason: grammar
Nah, I have more experience with strong Se valuers than any other type and I know for a fact that they can go HARD when it comes to partying, especially the Se leads that are enneagram 7s (which many of them are)**.
For one, you assume that all party goers have exactly the same priorities and motivations for partying and they don’t. In Socionics, both SEEs and ESEs have 4D Se and Fe (part of the SF/’Social’ club which should tell you all you need to know) but they cognitively prefer one over the other. My SEE (E7w8) mother has always been the ultimate “party girl,” but her focus is on making an Se impact, first and foremost, by way of her energy, her aesthetic/style, her presence, and creating an extravagant spectacle, a powerful experience where, ideally, she is the center of attention, the “light source.”
And the degree of her turn up always depends on what she [Fi] personally wants/desires/chooses to do in that moment, others be damned, even though with demonstrative Fe she’s great at making sure others are enjoying themselves as well. But my mother could be the only one dancing in the center of the room and be just fine with that–her desire to party is self focused, not others focused, as would more so be the case with ESEs as Fe leads. They’re more concerned with directly influencing and feeding off of the emotions of others in order to create a certain vibe and mood. They can’t help but be tuned into whether or not everyone is feeling good and therefore, having fun–they are Fi ignoring and would de-prioritize their own subjective feeling in favor of the objective, group feeling. Incidentally, I remember you saying before that you could feel/take on the emotions of other people and only Fe valuers do that; Fi users like SEEs don’t access empathy through that channel. I also remember seeing your type me video and I didn’t get Se lead, at all. Neither do you VI like an SEE.
**though I think some typology systems (e.g., MBTI, Socionics, Enneagram) are more flawed, inconsistent and lacking than others, essentially they are all aiming to describe the same underlying patterns and phenomena, and I believe that a synthesis between the systems comes closest to the “truth.” I don't think the differences between MBTI and Socionics significantly alter how the types manifest; I actually think the type profiles from both systems feature and prioritize different "sub types" (better explained by DCNH or Enneagram, for example).
You're describing EXXp (flexible-maneuvering) temperament, overall.
1.) At your age, your Ego functions are still developing (in addition to your Super Ego), let alone anything else. It would be common and almost expected to feel a certain repugnance or disconnect from your subconscious functions. Therefore, you not being that into Si right now would not necessarily discount you valuing it.
2.) Even supposing that everyone you've typed as SEI is indeed SEI (and there is a chance that's not the case), a staple of Socionics is IR theory and if you are uncertain of your own type, then it is very difficult to discern if you're actually experiencing the appropriate cognitive compatibility/incompatibility with SEI and other types that you think you are. Se leads don't typically have terrible IR, to the point of hate, with SEIs; your worst relation should be LII. Of course, there are always possible exceptions but I only deal in likelihoods. It's also possible that bad blood and funky family dynamics (that aren't type related) can sour certain relations that might otherwise be favorable.
3.) Also, enneagram 3s are identity seeking image types and, of course I could always be wrong, but it seems to me that you have a lot invested in coming off a certain way (that embodies a certain "Se" strength and power) which might also be clouding your judgment concerning your type.
4.) These are my thoughts and I stand by them but at the end of the day, do you, boo.
This is probably the best explanation I've read about my style of "partying". I love house parties because I can talk to everyone and make an impact as desired... And can also be in my PJs if I feel like it. Can't do that in a club where it's too loud to have a proper conversation and everyone is just dancing. Of course, there's time for that tooI know my IEE friend will also party on her own terms regardless of how "the room" is feeling, whereas my ESE friends wait for the appropriate time to start dancing or something. It's funny because the appropriate time will never come if no one decides to dance because of their own whim.
Same, sis, same.
I never thought I would like clubs, and after my last experience with them, I'm very ambivalent. They turn me away for the very same reasons you mentioned. House parties feel more intimate. But the problem with the party culture here is that there is never JUST a house party. Those are usually pre-parties. I guess I can go home after the pre-party from now on, which is what I intend to do. Clubs kinda suck.
“I want the following word: splendor, splendor is fruit in all its succulence, fruit without sadness. I want vast distances. My savage intuition of myself.”
― Clarice Lispector
Yeah, and one of the main issues I have with these people who lack foresight is that then impacts on other people (me included). They often don't see the impact they have on other people and it means other people end up getting completely screwed over.
Yeah you said it quite well. This is the case with my SEI/SLI family members as well - they don't seem to see any sort of issue with how they do things. And then when called out on it, they often get dismissive and pin the blame on others OR in the case of the SEI, may treat it as a joke like I've said before.
On the party topic, when I go to parties I definitely enjoy it. But I more enjoy the aspect of talking to new people than getting "trashed" or "wasted". I'm not that much of a drinker, not like these other people who seem to use any excuse to drink alcohol they can.
People who are fat/unhealthy and bad with facts (low Si and Te) don’t piss me off per se LOL. I kind of just pity them and might want to help at most.
My brain read “gamma NT” at first, which would make more sense to a great degree, but idk personally about alpha NTs getting pissed off at low foresight in others, since they don’t even value Ni and can deal with it well themselves.
I mean, there are 2 key SEIs in my life - my mam and one of my "friends". My mam is the worst one, because she constantly misgenders and deadnames me even after I've called her out on it multiple times. That is probably the reason I react quite strongly to transphobia on here, because I have to deal with it day in day out from her. Then we have my "friend" who is nice, and that is her issue. She is too nice, to the point where when I try to vent about my mam, she always ends up taking my mam's side. She also infuriates me when I'll try bring up a problem about me being stressed or something, and she tries to turn it about her "having it worse".Nah, I have more experience with strong Se valuers than any other type and I know for a fact that they can go HARD when it comes to partying, especially the Se leads that are enneagram 7s (which many of them are)**.
For one, you assume that all party goers have exactly the same priorities and motivations for partying and they don’t. In Socionics, both SEEs and ESEs have 4D Se and Fe (part of the SF/’Social’ club which should tell you all you need to know) but they cognitively prefer one over the other. My SEE (E7w8) mother has always been the ultimate “party girl,” but her focus is on making an Se impact, first and foremost, by way of her energy, her aesthetic/style, her presence, and creating an extravagant spectacle, a powerful experience where, ideally, she is the center of attention, the “light source.”
And the degree of her turn up always depends on what she [Fi] personally wants/desires/chooses to do in that moment, others be damned, even though with demonstrative Fe she’s great at making sure others are enjoying themselves as well. But my mother could be the only one dancing in the center of the room and be just fine with that–her desire to party is self focused, not others focused, as would more so be the case with ESEs as Fe leads. They’re more concerned with directly influencing and feeding off of the emotions of others in order to create a certain vibe and mood. They can’t help but be tuned into whether or not everyone is feeling good and therefore, having fun–they are Fi ignoring and would de-prioritize their own subjective feeling in favor of the objective, group feeling. Incidentally, I remember you saying before that you could feel/take on the emotions of other people and only Fe valuers do that; Fi users like SEEs don’t access empathy through that channel. I also remember seeing your type me video and I didn’t get Se lead, at all. Neither do you VI like an SEE.
**though I think some typology systems (e.g., MBTI, Socionics, Enneagram) are more flawed, inconsistent and lacking than others, essentially they are all aiming to describe the same underlying patterns and phenomena, and I believe that a synthesis between the systems comes closest to the “truth.” I don't think the differences between MBTI and Socionics significantly alter how the types manifest; I actually think the type profiles from both systems feature and prioritize different "sub types" (better explained by DCNH or Enneagram, for example).
You're describing EXXp (flexible-maneuvering) temperament, overall.
1.) At your age, your Ego functions are still developing (in addition to your Super Ego), let alone anything else. It would be common and almost expected to feel a certain repugnance or disconnect from your subconscious functions. Therefore, you not being that into Si right now would not necessarily discount you valuing it.
2.) Even supposing that everyone you've typed as SEI is indeed SEI (and there is a chance that's not the case), a staple of Socionics is IR theory and if you are uncertain of your own type, then it is very difficult to discern if you're actually experiencing the appropriate cognitive compatibility/incompatibility with SEI and other types that you think you are. Se leads don't typically have terrible IR, to the point of hate, with SEIs; your worst relation should be LII. Of course, there are always possible exceptions but I only deal in likelihoods. It's also possible that bad blood and funky family dynamics (that aren't type related) can sour certain relations that might otherwise be favorable.
3.) Also, enneagram 3s are identity seeking image types and, of course I could always be wrong, but it seems to me that you have a lot invested in coming off a certain way (that embodies a certain "Se" strength and power) which might also be clouding your judgment concerning your type.
4.) These are my thoughts and I stand by them but at the end of the day, do you, boo.
Also I'm not too sure about IRs place in reality. With the conflictor relation, sure it can be the worst - but there sometimes isn't enough even there to hate someone about. I also don't really see myself being Si dual in the general sense - I don't like being comforted and coddled.
I do want to come off a certain way, that is true. And if you're curious, the reason I'm such a bitch on this forum is because the typology community has continually treated me like shit so I want revenge.
Oh also, wouldn't it kinda make sense you didn't get Se lead from a video? Se leads are extraverts after all, so won't get energised from sitting in front of a laptop talking to a camera alone lol.
Absolutely. The lack of one's own sought-after IE in another can be immensely frustrating. Ni is a strong focus of the SEE, as all types have their shadow to integrate. To then see it disregarded so frivolously in others is often not very.. appreciated.
True. Actual foresight is very rare in general. I can't fault anyone for not displaying it. I consider myself a good observer of world events, but I can't predict things I'm not actually following closely. There is a lot of thought and research that goes into it. My scope is limited to the things I'm interested in and know a lot about.
Its cuz u get upset over nothing
Wow, dude. Epic roast, ya got me good with that one.
You don't know my life lol, you don't know (or deserve to know) what I am referring to. Shut the fuck up, dumbass.
I can deduct it from your forum behaviour and your moms reactions to your behaviour
^Victim blaming exampleI can deduct it from your forum behaviour and your moms reactions to your behaviour
may good rhythms continue
Interfering with, thus ruining, a good situation in motion, wasting effort all the way -- this is the worst imo.
No foresight works if new situations can be jumped on as opportunity!
Worst example was likely-xSE manager. Panicked and changed plans. Ruined workers' preparatory work and flow. Panicked more. Got more stupid and ruinous. No one could save him. Would have been better off if he'd have stood in a corner and drooled.
p . . . a . . . n . . . d . . . o . . . r . . . a
trad metalz | (more coming)
Pretty much a general "gamma" thing.and
or
and
dominant functions get you a similar results from divergent angles. By some accident of the divine, you have a damnably accurate record in regards to prophecy in some form. Add in the fact that most people tend to assume that every other human they encounter is like themselves more or less and you see how that issue pops up for you. The "thinking for a second" most especially. Play a video game with a multiplayer element sometime, tell me a story of it, I can probably tell you exactly how that rando's failure to "think" ruined everything!
I've learned the hard way, multiple times, that I really ought not to assume that, like I stated above, other people share my own capacity for things like logical projection. At the same time, don't let that ability of yours go to your head. You have greater foresight than they do. Good for you. However, because instilling a sense of "humility" is an aspect or our existence, don't just write all their opinions and "foresight's" off.
They may be writing yours off, and you can thus take some small comfort in the fact that they will most likely remember how they blew you off with a great deal of regret. Like Cassandra you did clearly try to warn them and yet they blew you off. Did your best, not much else can be asked of ya. However, I'd rather not indulge in schadenfreude if I can help it. Thus I lament the lack of vision and foresight of those closest to you...
Last edited by End; 01-05-2020 at 07:49 AM.
People write you off because you're delusional.Pretty much a general "gamma" thing.
I've learned the hard way, multiple times, that I really ought not to assume that, like I stated above, other people share my own capacity for things like logical projection. At the same time, don't let that ability of yours go to your head. You have greater foresight than they do. Good for you. However, because instilling a sense of "humility" is an aspect or our existence, don't just write all their opinions and "foresight's" off.
They may be writing yours off, and you can thus take some small comfort in the fact that they will most likely remember how they blew you off with a great deal of regret. Like Cassandra you did clearly try to warn them and yet they blew you off. Did your best, not much else can be asked of ya. However, I'd rather not indulge in schadenfreude if I can help it. Thus I lament the lack of vision and foresight of those closest to you...
So I may have been wrong about the type I picked, oopsie.
*voice of Darth Vader* "The Ne is strong with this one."
Exactly, Ne kinda goes into everything I do, every decision I make. Interestingly, I do seem to attract a lot of SEIs... even if I might not be as attracted back due to how bad my experience with them has been.
Also, gotta love @voider jumping on that post saying I was wrong haha
I was just around, saw it and found it funnyAlso, gotta love @voider jumping on that post saying I was wrong hahaIt's always interesting to see ppl reconsider type.
Okay, this may be controversial but this is my honest opinion.
I think you are too expressive and in touch with your emotions to be a logical type. It's obvious to me that you have Alpha values, so I'm actually almost positive you are ESE. It's funny because even when you argue I never feel like you have strong convictions. I feel like if people speak rationally you are very open and receptive to changing your mind.
I'm also reminded of something you said in your first questionnaire, which I have actually observed.
Which reminds me of a similar concept from the LII and ESE duality description which explains the interaction between a Ti lead and Ti suggestive.
Source: Duality_Relations_INTj_and_ESFj_by_StratiyevskayaThe LII considers being reasonable as one of his main virtues; and he is not going to lose his head. (Although the LII understands that this would possibly be the most expensive gift and the most desired sacrifice, but, alas, it's pointless to make it. The ESE understands this well, because the LII often makes the ESE understand that LII's head always remains firmly on his shoulders (along with its contents) no matter how much the ESE tries to make it spin. And the ESE, from time to time, does attempt to do this, in order to "check" the readiness of his partner to subordinate to his will. Therefore, the ESE periodically swoops in with his new spontaneous proposals, employing the same element of surprise.
Last edited by Ryan; 01-05-2020 at 09:34 PM. Reason: Apparently can't link to wikisocion
Nah, no way am I ESE lol. No way am I Si ego lol (or Ni PoLR for that matter - evidenced by, well this thread). I have no idea when it comes to comfort and health and all that shit - I need someone to do that for me. Also with the ESEs of a similar age I've talked to there is a very noticeable difference. I need Si people to keep me grounded, Si leads (especially SEIs) actually seem to seek me out for Ne reasons. Also, I'm really not in touch with my emotions lol - anything identity related I just keep switching. ESEs are EJs, so actually do have strong convictions lol. You can cherry pick one sentence that somewhat correlates with one description of LII/ESE duality all you want, but... just no lol.
I'm not here to argue. I don't have much to go on actually. It's just a hunch. I may flesh out my opinion more when I have something else. I have actually typed you ESE for a while based on my impression of you, but I wasn't this certain until today. I just wanted to put it in writing to not lose the thought. I may or not may not be wrong, but that is how I type you right now.
I mean, I actually take it as a compliment. Fe hidden agenda and all that, so I'm glad I come across more Fe than I actually am.
I don't understand the jump from LIE to SEE to ILE? What has convinced you to skip over IEE, is your enneagram more static? It just seems really artificial. Not criticizing you as a person, just the ideas. Te/Ni to Se/Fi to Ti/Ne seems manufactured or succumbing to one's own ideal, like you'd expect of a three to put up an image, none of us have the chance to know the real you.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
