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Thread: Base vs Creative subtype: Which is better?

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    Default Base vs Creative subtype: Which is better?

    In your opinion, is there one of the subtypes that can make an individual generally: happier, more confident, more self-acceptant and less stressed?

    If yes, which is it?

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    There are two aspects that makes creative subtype worse:
    - weaker base function
    - weaker vulnerable function

    So if your vulnerable function is Se, you have a hard time with people that use Se while interacting with you. It's stressful for you to handle that.

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    Producing has more pronounced weaknesses (what WinnieW mentioned, plus it also has wirse Ignoring) but in turn also has access to a set of abilities the accepting does not.

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...-and-producing

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    Better not to have a subtype, both come at a price.
    Maybe Se subtypes of Se egos are more confident, or more cocky, maybe Fe subtypes of Fe egos are more happy, or scarily too explosive emotionaly...
    I think people of each type can be confident and happy, it's likely more about self-respect and self-improvement than anything type related though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mclane View Post
    Producing has more pronounced weaknesses (what WinnieW mentioned, plus it also has wirse Ignoring) but in turn also has access to a set of abilities the accepting does not.

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...-and-producing
    Yeah, you're more aware of what you lack than what you already have; when strong abilities are perceived as normal.

    ...and I can't tell if my (ignoring function) Te is really that bad.

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    ESI-Se have it easier than ESI-Fi, the Se type has much higher average IQ and is at least slightly more mentally stable overall and is able to enjoy life (and working and playing with people) a lot more and is more at ease around people though there are some outliers.

    ILE-Ti have much higher average IQ than ILE-Ne; the logical subtype's PoLR gets "hit" way more, but they have more ways around it and out of other troubles that the intuitive subtype can't as easily get out of; in fact, ILE-Ti seem to have better Ne than ILE-Ne, ILE-Ti works are a lot more revolutionary and original on average. There is quite a bit of individual variance between ILE-Ti though in terms of how outgoing and loud they are and how much happiness they express; some have completely monotone voices and aren't sociable (Mark Zuckerberg from a while back, Ben Stein), others smile, laugh, go to many traditional social events (weddings, funerals, sporting events), go into or create Fe atmospheres, and get excited AF (and show it). ILE-Ti females are slightly more likely to be upbeat than ILE-Ti males. ILE-Ti can also be pretty maternal/care-giving/domestic, the most so of all the Ne ego (sub) types, followed quite distantly by IEE-Fi. But they're one of the types least likely to smile in photos by themselves; so sexy.

    IEE-Fi are way happier than IEE-Ne and don't seem to have any more trouble with Ti than the intuitive subtype does, probably even less despite having boosted Fi.

    Seems to me like the creative subtypes have it easier than the base subtypes because the former seem more relaxed overall, the base subtypes are more hotheaded overall. An exception would be IEI-Ni vs IEI-Fe; the Ni subtype is more laid-back and happier.

    It also seems to me like males are much more likely to be the base subtype of most types than females (IEI is an exception). Males are generally less satisfied with life and less relaxed, less casual, and less emotionally stable, more anxious and angry than females; the overall difference may be small but it's there.
    Last edited by Disturbed; 12-28-2019 at 12:12 AM.

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    Do you think that if a person is not forced by society to act a certain way, they would naturally be creative subtype? And so they would be more fulfilled, self-content, less self-criticizing and less prone to depression?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiro View Post
    Do you think that if a person is not forced by society to act a certain way, they would naturally be creative subtype? And so they would be more fulfilled, self-content, less self-criticizing and less prone to depression?
    I think people are either born the base or creative subtype. I don't think it's environmental, although I imagine there are more people of the base subtypes in third world societies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Disturbed View Post
    I think people are either born the base or creative subtype. I don't think it's environmental, although I imagine there are more people of the base subtypes in third world societies.
    I see, but I highly guess that subtypes would be nurture traits instead of nature ones; like assertive and turbulent in the “16personnalities” website which, in my opinion, determines someone’s degree of happiness. Plus, the fact that the subtype is not binary by itself but is more of a spectrum, as the socionics says, indicate the probability for it to be a nurture trait.
    What do you think?

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    Connecting IQ to subtypes now? I'm sure​ the research behind that is very good...

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    Depends on what environment youre in

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    I have an observation, not a conclusion:
    I have always noticed that Base subtypes are always getting caught up in their own world and are more mistrustful of people. When I say "caught up in their own world," I don't mean being caught up in world of fantasy. I mean that they are more likely to do things that they find "interesting," but not necessarily productive. In other words, they seem to think about their personal happiness and personal needs much more the creative subtype. I mind you, I am a creative subtype so my views may be bias, but on a number of occasions, I have perceived some of their actions to be selfish (not all the time, just more than the creative subtypes).

    I believe this self-first principle they carry around makes them much less likely to achieve great success in society despite being quite capable in acquiring the skills to do so. There is a healthy sense of survivalism that comes along with this frame of mind. Maybe this itself as evidence to the argument that being a creative subtype is an artificial (unnatural) phenomenon of the human cognition (even though I don't think this myself).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Investigator View Post
    I have an observation, not a conclusion:
    I have always noticed that Base subtypes are always getting caught up in their own world and are more mistrustful of people. When I say "caught up in their own world," I don't mean being caught up in world of fantasy. I mean that they are more likely to do things that they find "interesting," but not necessarily productive. In other words, they seem to think about their personal happiness and personal needs much more the creative subtype. I mind you, I am a creative subtype so my views may be bias, but on a number of occasions, I have perceived some of their actions to be selfish (not all the time, just more than the creative subtypes).

    I believe this self-first principle they carry around makes them much less likely to achieve great success in society despite being quite capable in acquiring the skills to do so. There is a healthy sense of survivalism that comes along with this frame of mind. Maybe this itself as evidence to the argument that being a creative subtype is an artificial (unnatural) phenomenon of the human cognition (even though I don't think this myself).
    I understand what you say but do not quite agree.
    I recognized my past self a lot in the description of the EII creative subtype. I was bright on the outside and dead inside; I made everyone thought I was ok while I couldn’t bare anything. The most productive thing my brain was doing was to constantly imagine how my parents and loved ones would react if I would end me.
    So, instead of doing it, I decided to give myself a chance and stoped giving a s***; I said bye to school even though everyone told me not to, but of all the causes of my depression, school was the biggest.
    After getting rid of the bad, I started to look for the good, and personal growth helped me a lot on that one, especially personality theory, resulting on me, working on something that moves me, scriptwriting. Now I recognize myself more as a base subtype.

    People can see me as selfish as they want; there is no way I’m going back to that time of my life.

    By the way, happy new year!
    Last edited by Shiro; 01-07-2020 at 11:47 AM.

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    I might see where this comes from, but there are a lot of expectations in play. Producing subtypes seem to need more care through actions and that could be why they see accepting subtypes as more selfish. To me, ILI-Tes rely on extra expressive and compassionate SEE-Fis, because they need to be understood without having themselves to ever process or express their feelings. However, SEE-Fis have weaker Se, so the ILI-Te is expected to be able to fend for himself. Base subtypes seek care for their suggestive and from my observations, producing duals are seen as too selfish about their dominant. For example, ILI-Ni and IEI-Ni have this "psychic nurturer" vibe that is completely lost in the producing subtypes. The Ni subtypes care about everyone's mental health. I frequently hear them say stuff like "you need to let go", "it happened for a reason", "it wasn't meant to happen", even to people they don't know, to make them feel better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    I might see where this comes from, but there are a lot of expectations in play. Producing subtypes seem to need more care through actions and that could be why they see accepting subtypes as more selfish. To me, ILI-Tes rely on extra expressive and compassionate SEE-Fis, because they need to be understood without having themselves to ever process or express their feelings. However, SEE-Fis have weaker Se, so the ILI-Te is expected to be able to fend for himself. Base subtypes seek care for their suggestive and from my observations, producing duals are seen as too selfish about their dominant. For example, ILI-Ni and IEI-Ni have this "psychic nurturer" vibe that is completely lost in the producing subtypes. The Ni subtypes care about everyone's mental health. I frequently hear them say stuff like "you need to let go", "it happened for a reason", "it wasn't meant to happen", even to people they don't know, to make them feel better.
    True. I have an IEI-Ni friend and he did that stuff. Also despite being a male, was always ready to listen to me and say his honest helpful opinion. On the contrary, IEI-Fe is more concerned about speaking than listening and expressing own emotions than empathizing. Then, I came to the conclusion that Extroverted subtypes (putting aside DCNH) seem or could be more "selfish" than introverted subtypes.
    Last edited by Tommy; 01-07-2020 at 08:21 PM.

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    lol at mental health. I find that Ni concept of mental health makes me mentally ill -> very furious. They make my head boil inside like brain in pressure cooker but Se egos like to hear personally subjective crap. I just never show it but I do have my fantasies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic 007 View Post
    lol at mental health. I find that Ni concept of mental health makes me mentally ill -> very furious. They make my head boil inside like pressure cooker but Se egos like to hear personally subjective crap. I just never show it but I do have my fantasies.
    it's not just like, it's NEED, otherwise all of ourselves gets lost, and we are nothing but a reaction to the world

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic 007 View Post
    lol at mental health. I find that Ni concept of mental health makes me mentally ill -> very furious. They make my head boil inside like brain in pressure cooker but Se egos like to hear personally subjective crap. I just never show it but I do have my fantasies.
    Since I notice this post immediately after your assertion to me that I couldn't have ever struggled with cognitive awareness of my emotions and my psychologist wasn't a good source, I FEEL(!) compelled to inform you that it was objective insofar as processing emotional data can be impaired by extreme damage to the frontal lobe of the brain requiring a shunt. Maybe you could have told the doctors whether drilling into my skull was actually necessary, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Investigator View Post
    I believe this self-first principle they carry around makes them much less likely to achieve great success in society
    Wait, what?

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    I don’t believe in subtypes in terms of the way they are typically described. They don’t work with the system, because the 16 types and the IEs are reliant on each other structurally. If you added subtypes, you would need to change the original structure of Model A itself. Note that the IEs themselves as we understand them here are based on the 16 types just as much as the other way around. If we were to add different type understandings, we’d have to reconsider our understanding of the IEs.

    The only thing that would make sense is different levels of cognitive introversion/extroversion, which have been proven exist. In that case, either all introverted, or all extroverted IEs should be boosted probably. I would also understand a good case for either all external (different from extroverted—these are the T and S IEs), or all internal IEs (N and F IEs) being boosted. However, there’s obviously little to no real research linking cognitive introversion/extroversion to what we could relate to all of each of the socionics information elements distinctly (it could exist compiled somewhere by someone like @squark idk), but somehow I doubt it.

    In IRL, although different people do have different fortes, unfortunately we don’t see people’s IQ lowering when their EQ increases, or their health and motor skills getting worse when they find more opportunities lol. These things are positively correlated actually.

    So really there’s no basis for socionics subtypes as posed by conjecture structurally, and none in reality either (yet).

    What socionics subtypes descriptions are probably based on is the imaginations of certain socionists happening to fit in with reality of many people’s personalities due to the Barnum/Forer effect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    Since I notice this post immediately after your assertion to me that I couldn't have ever struggled with cognitive awareness of my emotions and my psychologist wasn't a good source, I FEEL(!) compelled to inform you that it was objective insofar as processing emotional data can be impaired by extreme damage to the frontal lobe of the brain requiring a shunt. Maybe you could have told the doctors whether drilling into my skull was actually necessary, though.
    Eh... I don't think that person needs to validate their conditions [to keep authority low], only get treatment as medicine is already pretty murky field in terms of even organic diagnoses and you needed treatment...

    I think I have some sort of minor but significant incurable brain damage but I'd like to keep it as strictly as a brain damage and not to go to murkier areas in psychiatry as it gives no explanation only roughly guidelines even tough it might fulfill some criteria but it is more or less BS if the cause is located.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    I don’t believe in subtypes in terms of the way they are typically described. They don’t work with the system, because the 16 types and the IEs are reliant on each other structurally. If you added subtypes, you would need to change the original structure of Model A itself. Note that the IEs themselves as we understand them here are based on the 16 types just as much as the other way around. If we were to add different type understandings, we’d have to reconsider our understanding of the IEs.

    The only thing that would make sense is different levels of cognitive introversion/extroversion, which have been proven exist. In that case, either all introverted, or all extroverted IEs should be boosted probably. I would also understand a good case for either all external (different from extroverted—these are the T and S IEs), or all internal IEs (N and F IEs) being boosted. However, there’s obviously little to no real research linking cognitive introversion/extroversion to what we could relate to all of each of the socionics information elements distinctly (it could exist compiled somewhere by someone like @squark idk), but somehow I doubt it.

    In IRL, although different people do have different fortes, unfortunately we don’t see people’s IQ lowering when their EQ increases, or their health and motor skills getting worse when they find more opportunities lol. These things are positively correlated actually.

    So really there’s no basis for socionics subtypes as posed by conjecture structurally, and none in reality either (yet).

    What socionics subtypes descriptions are probably based on is the imaginations of certain socionists happening to fit in with reality of many people’s personalities due to the Barnum/Forer effect.
    yeah and instead there's clear evidence of the existence of the 16 types, both in conjecture and in reality. delusional much

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic 007 View Post
    Eh... I don't think that person needs to validate their conditions [to keep authority low], only get treatment as medicine is already pretty murky field in terms of even organic diagnoses and you needed treatment...

    I think I have some sort of minor but significant incurable brain damage but I'd like to keep it as strictly as a brain damage and not to go to murkier areas in psychiatry as it gives no explanation only roughly guidelines even tough it might fulfill some criteria but it is more or less BS if the cause is located.
    I guess that getting mad about someone accusing you of untruth signals a desire for validation of the statement in question. "Psychiatric issues" like severe depression are common symptoms and I wonder if you would also place things like aphasia or fine motor coordination problems outside the realm of "strictly brain damage." At this point, though, I'm not angry, just nitpicking, lol. Ive been unfriendly, but I do honestly hope you get treatment if you ever need it, in those murkier realms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    I might see where this comes from, but there are a lot of expectations in play. Producing subtypes seem to need more care through actions and that could be why they see accepting subtypes as more selfish. To me, ILI-Tes rely on extra expressive and compassionate SEE-Fis, because they need to be understood without having themselves to ever process or express their feelings. However, SEE-Fis have weaker Se, so the ILI-Te is expected to be able to fend for himself. Base subtypes seek care for their suggestive and from my observations, producing duals are seen as too selfish about their dominant. For example, ILI-Ni and IEI-Ni have this "psychic nurturer" vibe that is completely lost in the producing subtypes. The Ni subtypes care about everyone's mental health. I frequently hear them say stuff like "you need to let go", "it happened for a reason", "it wasn't meant to happen", even to people they don't know, to make them feel better.
    That’s where my bias could be coming from, I associate selflessness with action. I just don’t see how you can say you like me without taking the physical steps to prove that to me. You are definitely right about the psychological nurturing nature of Ni dominant subtypes. However, where IEI-Ni and ILI-Ni would provide great council and advice, I think IEI-Fe’s and ILI-Te’s make up for it in therapy through our actions. Even though we may not seem it to the normal person, ILI-Te’s are quite skilled at cheering up people close to them (that goes without saying for IEI-Fe’s).

    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Wait, what?
    People who are centered at satisfying their own pleasures tend not to be good at satisfying the needs of material goals as our pleasures don’t ever line up 100% with the steps needed to accomplish said goals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    yeah and instead there's clear evidence of the existence of the 16 types, both in conjecture and in reality. delusional much
    You are on here LOL. Why don’t you just fuck off. I’ll ignore you if you make another dumb comment at me.

    16 types and 8 IEs makes sense in terms of information processing, and Jung has been around for a long time. If all you do is use this website to talk about your married couple cucking and convince people you’re a genius saint then why don’t you go take some more up the ass instead of spending your time here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Investigator View Post
    People who are centered at satisfying their own pleasures tend not to be good at satisfying the needs of material goals as our pleasures don’t ever line up 100% with the steps needed to accomplish said goals.
    Oh, that’s different from “self-first” though which is what you mentioned. I thought you meant that in contrast with “others-first”. I thought that was weird because there are a lot of self-centered people who are in power, and to a great extent, putting yourself first a lot of times is important in life even if you want to help people in need or put others’ needs on par with your own in principle.

    Yeah would agree people who always want instant gratification usually aren’t as good at achieving long term goals which are usually more important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    You are on here LOL. Why don’t you just fuck off. I’ll ignore you if you make another dumb comment at me.

    16 types and 8 IEs makes sense in terms of information processing, and Jung has been around for a long time. If all you do is use this website to talk about your married couple cucking and convince people you’re a genius saint then why don’t you go take some more up the ass instead of spending your time here.
    delusional nonsense post confirming stronk Ti

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    Creative obviously

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    Well if it's true that base subs have stronger base and mobilizing functions, and creative have stronger creative and suggestive. I guess it's like a video game.

    so my guess is
    base types have 4.5D leading, 2.5D creative, 2.5D mobilizing and .5D suggestive.
    creative, 3.5D leading, 3.5D creative, 1.5D mobilizing and 1.5D suggestive.

    base types would be more of a specialist, with really really powerful lead functions but really bad weakness. Glass cannon type.

    While creative would have decent lead function, above average creative function, and not as bad but still badweakness. So instead of extraordinary specialist they are more well rounded. dual class type, not the best at either, but good at both.

    So do you invest more in your strengths, or try to cover your weakness some?

    So base types can really beat creatives in their field of expertise, but creatives can be exceptional in more than one scenario. Depth vs Breadth. Potency vs Flexibility. Heavy Broad sword vs dual wielding katanas. Sniper vs Shotgun.
    Last edited by Lord Pixel; 01-09-2020 at 07:46 AM.

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    Not being a subtype is best because it indicates optimum processing balance. Now, subtypes can find contentment; it's just that being one presents a higher risk of missing something that that person would consider important......

    a.k.a. I/O

    EDIT: The worst critics of subtypes seem to be themselves because they're normally very aware of what they tend to habitually miss. I define subtypes as those that spend less than one-third of their total processing time on either input or output.
    Last edited by Rebelondeck; 01-11-2020 at 01:24 PM.

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    Subtypes are obvious, they're often easily discernible through visual cues and features and behavior and intelligence, overall IQ and components of IQ. ILE-Ne are nothing like ILE-Ti, Ne sub gets caught, they can't find their way out of difficult situations like ILE-Ti can, ILE-Ne are nowhere near as self-controlled nor elegant, nowhere near as resourceful nor observant nor capable of changing the world as ILE-Ti.

    There were probably never any slaves that were ILE-Ti, it's correlated a lot with race/ancestry (ILE-Ti is the most common type among Ashkenazi Jewesses and it's also more common in people with red hair). ILE-Ti always have above average knee height length even if they're only 5'3", their knee height to overall height ratio is very high, if you see someone with a short knee height then they're not an ILE-Ti. And it's like Ne and Fe is actually weaker in Ne subtype anyway. ESI-Fi and ESI-Se are also nothing alike. When Aushra Augusta made model A and intertype compatibility, the subtypes were a major omission, as ESi-Se and ILE-Ti get along great. ILE-Ti women frequently have long happy marriages to ESI-Se men, ESI-Se are elegant and always like the very best and spend a lot of time in leisure in obscure and beautiful places which means they meet ILE's Si needs and their sense of humor and wit meets ILE's Fe needs. I don't agree with Gulenko's DCNH system.

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