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Thread: Yes, Jesus was born on Dec 25!

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Default Yes, Jesus was born on Dec 25!

    I knew this already, but Taylor Marshall explains it well here:

    [start 3 min. in to get right to the point]

    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 12-21-2019 at 06:36 AM.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    Fake news. You will end up in hell for spreading it!
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Christians don't know what year he was born in, nevermind what day.

    His death and resurrection is supposed to be more important than his birth, but Christians don't know what year that happened either, nevermind the day. So why would they be expected to know when he was born?

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    From Wikipedia:

    Although the month and date of Jesus' birth are unknown, the church in the early fourth century fixed the date as December 25.[24][25][26] This corresponds to the date of the solstice on the Roman calendar.[27] Most Christians celebrate on December 25 in the Gregorian calendar, which has been adopted almost universally in the civil calendars used in countries throughout the world. However, some Eastern Christian Churches celebrate Christmas on December 25 of the older Julian calendar, which currently corresponds to a January date in the Gregorian calendar. For Christians, believing that God came into the world in the form of man to atone for the sins of humanity, rather than knowing Jesus' exact birth date, is considered to be the primary purpose in celebrating Christmas.[28][29][30]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas

    So, yeah, fake news.

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    Haikus
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    LSE 'splaining.

    Last edited by valhalla; 12-21-2019 at 08:02 PM.

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    Long before Europe was invaded by Christians, the Germanic peoples celebrated winter solstice in honour of Odin - the Pagan God of wisdom, around the same date as Christmas. In Sweden we still refer to Christmas as "jul", the old Germanic word used by our pre-Christian ancestors. In many ways, Christmas appropriated off of jul. I'd like to wish everyone a merry Christmas, and especially, a good jul!

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    jesus couldn't breathe when he was born because he was born in the void

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    I think it recently came out that most historians believe the man actually existed in some form.




    Too bad he didn't destroy the roman empire even if he had no intention of doing so.
    Last edited by Grendel; 12-22-2019 at 03:15 AM. Reason: tfw to unintelligent too post

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    I agree that the winter solstice is the correct birth time for Christ, symbolically speaking. Because the birth of Christ is an example of enantiodromia when psychological darkness has reached its peak and is suddenly reversed and a new spirit of light is born.

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    Quote Originally Posted by valhalla View Post
    The way I see it he entered the Void in the desert with John the Baptist. Yet still had residual selfhood, which he restled with. This was the Devils enticement: "keep being you"

    And then again on the cross when his individual self was finally surrendered to God and he died.

    And then again when he arose from the Grave, dead, yet alive.

    The Solstices reflect this. Which is the fractal nature of nature. As above, so below.

    //
    Yes he died on earth too because he had asthma

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    Yes he died on earth too because he had asthma
    lol, k.

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    Where his grave at yo~
    And I'm what you desire, like a siren in the night



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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Christians don't know what year he was born in, nevermind what day.
    That's true.

    The birthday of Jesus was chosen by the Catholic curch, but that's a long story to tell. Mankind don't know either the exact date or year of the birthday of Jesus.
    And there was a calender reform in 1582 (from Julian calender to Gregorian calender).

    And having a christmas tree isn't a religious rite, it's a traditional event.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAngelFireWolf69 View Post
    Long before Europe was invaded by Christians, the Germanic peoples celebrated winter solstice in honour of Odin - the Pagan God of wisdom, around the same date as Christmas.
    This is correct.

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    I water my Christmas trees with the Blood of Christ. It's what Santa Claus wants.

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    thework.com Kalinoche the Child's Avatar
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    maybe it's about his spiritual birth
    honest labor needs no master

    Nothing good is a miracle, nothing lovely is a dream.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    Like so many people already said, no. Christmas isn't even a christian holiday, it's an adopted pagan one. Was outlawed in some of the early american colonies bc of its pagan roots btw. I have seen people who actually know what they're talking about, and who know real history try to pinpoint his birth, and the latest date they tend to come up with is sometime in the fall, nowhere near the winter solstice.
    Speaking of “knowing what they’re talking about”, which pagan holiday was Christmas adopted from?

    The fact is that while this is a common myth, there isn’t actually any evidence which supports this.
    As a goatherd learns his trade by goat, so a writer learns his trade by wrote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Speaking of “knowing what they’re talking about”, which pagan holiday was Christmas adopted from?

    The fact is that while this is a common myth, there isn’t actually any evidence which supports this.
    The @Sol Invictus cult was celebrated on the 25th in the Roman Empire. Many ancient religions had similar resurrection myths.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    The @Sol Invictus cult was celebrated on the 25th in the Roman Empire. Many ancient religions had similar resurrection myths.
    Everyone and their mom has a different explanation.

    1. IIRC, Aurelius popularized the Sol Invictus cult around the time we begin to get records of Christmas being celebrated. Given that Christianity was an older religion, there’s just as much grounds to think the holiday was stolen from the Christians.

    2. Even if this cult did have a holiday on December 25th, there’s still no indication that it had anything to do with Christmas.

    3. Even if other religions had similar myths as Christianity, that doesn’t indicate anything about Christmas, and

    4. Christmas is about Jesus’ birth, not his resurrection.
    As a goatherd learns his trade by goat, so a writer learns his trade by wrote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    4. Christmas is about Jesus’ birth, not his resurrection.
    The suggestion [citation needed] is that Christians readily adopted the 25th as Jesus' birthday because there are clear parallels between the Sun and Jesus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Because the birth of Christ is an example of enantiodromia when psychological darkness has reached its peak and is suddenly reversed and a new spirit of light is born.
    I just wondered if the illumination of the christmas tree is a modern symbolic for that "new light that is born". In the previous centuries there were lighted candles at the xmas tree, maybe it's a modern form of winter solistice fire for indoors.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    I just wondered if the illumination of the christmas tree is a modern symbolic for that "new light that is born". In the previous centuries there were lighted candles at the xmas tree, maybe it's a modern form of winter solistice fire for indoors.
    I'm sure it is. We used to have real lighted candles in the christmas tree when I was a kid. Then at some point my parents went over to electric lights. But candles are so much better, the whole tree becomes a spiritual experience. I wish people would use candles still. I tried candles again last year, and it was even better than I remembered.

    Isn't Christmas the celebration of light, with all decorations and lights? The point when light and dark meets?

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    Nothing makes the Holidays more exciting than placing a number of open flames next to a wood structure made of kindling soaked in turpentine. Preferably in your living room.

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    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    I'm trying to fathom why it would be important to anyone that the birthday celebrated is factually accurate. Does it have any bearing on important things? Can't his birth be celebrated even if it's not on the exact anniversary of his arrival?

    Reminds me of when my son was going to Sunday school and asked how tall Jesus was, so I asked grandpa (my dad), who, without blinking, said "about six three. He was tall." (Maybe conceiving of him as tall increased his importance? Dunno if there's actual knowledge about this.)
    Actually, I was inspired to Google: most common estimates seem to be about 5'5.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    We used to have real lighted candles in the christmas tree when I was a kid. Then at some point my parents went over to electric lights.
    I know real candles on tree from stories only. My parents uses electric candles on a xmas tree since 1970s or even earlier. I had to decorate the tree as a kid and I noticed the lenght of the electric wires were limited while looking for appropriate branches to attach the candles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    But candles are so much better, the whole tree becomes a spiritual experience.
    We had a real candle at our Christmas crib, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Isn't Christmas the celebration of light, with all decorations and lights? The point when light and dark meets?
    Yeah, I think so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Nothing makes the Holidays more exciting than placing a number of open flames next to a wood structure made of kindling soaked in turpentine. Preferably in your living room.
    Yeah, you should comply a few security rules, having burning candles in your home.
    Leave them unattended only for very short periods of time.
    Don't light the candles when the branches (of the xmas tree) are already twiggy.
    Have wet blankets within reach. A bucket full of water can also be useful.


    You know. Germans take security rules very serious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    You know. Germans take security rules very serious.



    Finns are following along as Olkiluoto 3 nuclear plant might produce electricity 2021 (took just 16+ years).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Nothing makes the Holidays more exciting than placing a number of open flames next to a wood structure made of kindling soaked in turpentine. Preferably in your living room.

    20171224_194040.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    I'm trying to fathom why it would be important to anyone that the birthday celebrated is factually accurate. Does it have any bearing on important things? Can't his birth be celebrated even if it's not on the exact anniversary of his arrival?

    Reminds me of when my son was going to Sunday school and asked how tall Jesus was, so I asked grandpa (my dad), who, without blinking, said "about six three. He was tall." (Maybe conceiving of him as tall increased his importance? Dunno if there's actual knowledge about this.)
    Actually, I was inspired to Google: most common estimates seem to be about 5'5.
    My father has always told me that I was born at the same time of Jesus (as you do) - that he had to have been born during the Feast of Tabernacles - late September or early October - because apparently (in his view) this fulfils various Old Testament prophecies and/or parallels with New Testament themes.

    This page makes two points:
    https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/The_Pa...Jesus_was_Born

    However...in the New Testament, the Pharisees disparaged Jesus by saying "You are not yet fifty", which would imply he was in his late 40s when most Christians believe he was in 30s. Christians just have no idea whatsoever what decade, year, or day he was born on, or when he died - which is a significant reason for me doubting he even existed.

    The Star of Bethlehem is said to have appeared in the sky before Jesus' birth...but nothing especially remarkable has been attested for that time period. (It is similar to how in the earliest versions of the gospels, there was said to have been a three hour eclipse in Jerusalem during Jesus' death - the gospels also record an earthquake and mass resurrections that are not attested anywhere else).

    Regarding Jesus' appearance, the gospels say nothing apart from during supernatural events.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic 007 View Post
    It's the airport that has the highest safety level worldwide, most likely, because there wasn't even even a minor security risc or incident for planes taking off or landing there.
    At least the WiFi and cell phone networks are of high service quality.

    Long story short: The delay happend because some architects wanted to build some fancy building while neglecting functionality to a greater extent.
    Last edited by WinnieW; 12-23-2019 at 06:27 PM.

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    Let's just hope and pray that Christ will be born inside ourselves to light up the mental darkness, just as he was born in the darkest time of year to bring light to the world.
    Last edited by Tallmo; 12-23-2019 at 06:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    It's the airport that has the highest safety level worldwide, most likely, because there wasn't even even a minor security risc or incident for planes taking off or landing there.
    At least the WiFi and cell phone networks are of high service quality.

    Long story short: The delay happend because some architects wanted to build some fancy building while neglecting functionality to a greater extent.
    The paradox here is the following: LSI is the fancy building architect type and also the rule follower.
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    I'm on a computer without sound, so I didn't watch the video of the opening post. I know that one argument against His birth being in December is that the shepherds were out grazing their flocks that night, and they wouldn't do that in the winter. But my region is remarkably similar to Israel, and grass grows here in December and January moreso than in summer or autumn. So that's not a valid argument. But there may be valid arguments against that time of year based on timing of political events.

    I don't think that culture put much importance on birthdays. Maybe they would say, "I was born in the summer of the second year of King Herod Antipas." And that would be their birthday. (Correct me if you know otherwise.)

    Romans 14:5-6a says, "One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it." This passage was referring to treating the Sabbath as holy, but it could be applied to other "holy days" (holidays) as well. So it's fine to treat a specific day as special unto God, but it isn't the day itself that's important.

    Though I don't expect the Jews put much emphasis on their birthdays, they definitely treated their genealogy as important, and Paul said not to fuss about that either (1 Timothy 1:4).


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalinoche the Child View Post
    maybe it's about his spiritual birth
    No, because He wasn't born spiritually dead and thus didn't need a spiritual birth. He was never spiritually born, as He has no beginning and existed as spirit before being physically conceived. He enables our spiritual births.

    Also John the Baptist's spiritual birth was before his physical birth, which is interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic 007 View Post
    The paradox here is the following: LSI is the fancy building architect type and also the rule follower.
    Yeah, some SEI - LSI dynamic in matters of xmas tree.

    My SEI mom wanted to have a nice looking xmas tree, so my LSI dad had to replace unevenly distributed branches of the grown tree.
    Which means cutting off misplaced branches and reattach them at a propper place at the tree trunk (incl. drilling holes in the stem.). I'm not kidding.

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    lol @ this thread

    And I'm what you desire, like a siren in the night



    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    Reminds me of when my son was going to Sunday school and asked how tall Jesus was, so I asked grandpa (my dad), who, without blinking, said "about six three. He was tall." (Maybe conceiving of him as tall increased his importance? Dunno if there's actual knowledge about this.)
    Actually, I was inspired to Google: most common estimates seem to be about 5'5.
    Jesus would probably have been average height, not particularly tall. "He has no form or comeliness; and when we see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him." (Isaiah 53:2)
    On another note, I heard that the blood on the Shroud of Turin (which I'm inclined to believe is legitimate, though it's not a big deal if it's not) is AB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie the Child View Post
    Jesus would probably have been average height, not particularly tall. "He has no form or comeliness; and when we see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him." (Isaiah 53:2)
    On another note, I heard that the blood on the Shroud of Turin (which I'm inclined to believe is legitimate, though it's not a big deal if it's not) is AB.
    Isaiah 53 is referring to the nation of Israel, not the Messiah.

    Even if it were referring to the Messiah, I’m not sure there’s a single Messianic prophecy Jesus actually fulfilled. I’m not sure why he’d fulfill this one either.
    As a goatherd learns his trade by goat, so a writer learns his trade by wrote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I’m not sure there’s a single Messianic prophecy Jesus actually fulfilled.
    Clearly you haven't read the book of Matthew. He filled it with quotes from the Old Testament that Jesus fulfilled. The book of John has several also.

    But just off the top of my head, prophecies clearly about the messiah that Jesus clearly fulfilled:
    Micah 5:2 (a ruler will be born in Bethlehem "whose goings forth are from old, from everlasting") [compare Matthew 1:4-5 & John 7:42]
    Isaiah 7:14 ("Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name [God with us].")
    Isaiah 9:6-7 (a son will be born, called God, and have an eternal kingdom)
    Isaiah 53:7 (was silent before His accusers)
    Isaiah 53:8 (died)
    Isaiah 53:9 (died beside criminals; had an expensive tomb)

    You say it refers to the nation of Israel. I don't see how, but I won't argue that point. One of the things I learned in my recent classes is that prophecies didn't always apply to a single event. Sometimes they applied both to the time of the prophet and to the coming Messiah. Which also makes a lot of sense considering that events of the Old Testament are also used to point to the Messiah (such as the unblemished Passover lamb).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie the Child View Post
    Clearly you haven't read the book of Matthew. He filled it with quotes from the Old Testament that Jesus fulfilled. The book of John has several also.

    But just off the top of my head, prophecies clearly about the messiah that Jesus clearly fulfilled:
    Micah 5:2 (a ruler will be born in Bethlehem "whose goings forth are from old, from everlasting") [compare Matthew 1:4-5 & John 7:42]
    Isaiah 7:14 ("Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name [God with us].")
    Isaiah 9:6-7 (a son will be born, called God, and have an eternal kingdom)
    Isaiah 53:7 (was silent before His accusers)
    Isaiah 53:8 (died)
    Isaiah 53:9 (died beside criminals; had an expensive tomb)

    You say it refers to the nation of Israel. I don't see how, but I won't argue that point. One of the things I learned in my recent classes is that prophecies didn't always apply to a single event. Sometimes they applied both to the time of the prophet and to the coming Messiah. Which also makes a lot of sense considering that events of the Old Testament are also used to point to the Messiah (such as the unblemished Passover lamb).
    Abbie, I'd wager I'm more familiar with the Bible than you are. Most "prophecies" Matthew lists either can't be found in the Hebrew Bible, or refer to something completely different.

    Let's start with Micah 5:2. Traditionally the passage has been interpreted by Jews to refer to David, in the sense that the Messiah's ancestry will have come from there. Matthew, in his characteristic misuse and misunderstanding of the Hebrew Bible, reads this as a Messianic prophecy, and so he has to make Jesus come from there. Thus we get the fantastic story about Herod trying to kill an infant, having Jesus' family flee to Egypt, and only after that relocating to Nazareth, where Jesus was apparently known to actually have been from. It should be noted that Luke does not have this story; instead, we get Jesus' birth happening during the time of Quirinius' governorship. It should be noted that Quirinius was instated by Rome after Herod Archelaus (the son of Herod the Great, and the brother of Antipater, who had been exiled by Caligula by this time) was deposed from his rule, so it's impossible for both stories to be true. Personally I'd go for the story without Zoroastrian astrologers following a moving star.

    Edit: Apparently scholars tend to think Luke chapters 1-2 are late additions. Make of that what you like.

    But fine, you might say, Matthew's story is clearly unreliable, but Luke also has an explanation of Jesus being born in Bethlehem, and it's possible to read Micah 5 as saying the Messiah will come from Bethlehem. Besides the fact that Luke's account of having everyone go to their hometown to register is plainly insane, Jesus doesn't appear to have fulfilled the rest of Micah 5, which has to do with the Messiah destroying his foes, and the Lord smiting a lot of people in anger. Also, who are the Assyrians who are supposed to have ravaged Judea after Jesus' death? When did Jesus deliver anyone from these Assyrians?

    Isaiah 7:14 also doesn't refer to the Messiah. From Jews For Judaism:

    ---

    “And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz, king of Judah, …that, Rezin, king of Aram, and Pekah, king of Israel, son of Remaliah, went up to attack Jerusalem, but they were not able to conquer it. When word came to the house of David that Aram was encamped in Ephraim, the heart of the king and heart of the people trembled, as the trees of the forest tremble in the wind. Then the LORD said to Isaiah: Go out to meet Ahaz…,say to him: Take care, remain tranquil and do not fear; let not your courage fail before these two stumps of smoldering brands…who are saying, "Let us go up and tear Judah asunder, make it our own by force."


    Thus says the LORD: This shall not stand, it shall not be! …Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz: Ask for a sign from the LORD, your God; let it be deep as the depths below, or high as the sky! But Ahaz answered, "I will not ask! I will not tempt the LORD!" Then he said: "Listen, O house of David! Is it not enough for you to weary men, must you also weary God? Therefore the Lord himself will give you this sign: the young woman is with child, and will bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel. He shall be living on butter and honey until the time he learns to reject the bad and choose the good. Before the child learns to reject the bad and choose the good, the land of those two kings whom you dread shall be deserted.


    In context, we understand that the King of Judah, Ahaz, is in mortal fear of two armies – Aram and the Kingdom of Israel who have attacked. In order to placate his fears, God through His prophet Isaiah, reassures him that he and his kingdom will be safe. The sign of this will be that a woman (obviously known to Ahaz) will bear a child. The essence of this sign was that within a few years (the time the child will be able to discern between good and evil), Ahaz would experience the salvation from Above and be spared. If this passage was predicting the birth of Jesus, who lived 700 years after Ahaz, it makes little sense for God to comfort the poor King with tidings of his birth.

    ---

    I'd also like to add the obvious: Jesus was not named Immanuel.

    On to Isaiah 9, which is an outright and intentional mistranslation of the Hebrew. It actually says "For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace." This also makes a lot more sense than Isaiah spouting what would have been considered heresy; that is, that God would have been a human. No Jew would have considered such writing prophecy, and the book of Isaiah would not have survived to this day if that were what it said.

    Furthermore, even if that's what was actually said, consider that A) there's no record of anyone anywhere in the Bible calling Jesus "the prince of peace"; the only people to do so were Christians. B) Jesus himself said "I came not to bring peace, but a sword." He was right: given the conflicts and atrocities that have been inspired by Christianity, "prince of peace" is certainly a misnomer.

    Again, Isaiah 53 is referring to the nation of Israel, i.e. the Jews. The reason you don't understand that is that you're taught to not read the book as a whole. The "suffering servant" is explicitly identified with "Jacob" in Isaiah 44: "And now, hearken, Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen...." It's quite clear, reading from 44 onwards, who the "suffering servant" is; that is, the people of Israel. But that's not what Christians are taught to do. They're taught to quote passages out of context, and respond to criticism of this practice by saying "prophecies don't always refer to a single event", despite the fact that a few verses before or after the ones they quote generally disqualify them from referring to Jesus. You could just as easily fabricate prophecies from Harry Potter that Donald Trump would be elected President by selectively quoting verses and ignoring all context.

    Edit: You mentioned " Which also makes a lot of sense considering that events of the Old Testament are also used to point to the Messiah (such as the unblemished Passover lamb)." What specifically do you think the Passover lamb has to do with Jesus?
    Last edited by FreelancePoliceman; 12-24-2019 at 04:03 PM.
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    Why wouldn't the historical Jesus have been born on the winter solstice? I'll believe he wasn't when someone provides me with a substitute time.
    People reading Joel Osteen books are untrustworthy.

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