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Thread: Dislike of duals

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    I think Gulenko has described such situations http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...Dual_Relations

    dual is an introverted relation so it's better not to have common friends and third parties. It's like a contradiction in Marxism philosophy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Good description. I feel the same with LIIs. They drain me and pull out too much Fe from me.
    Question for you and @FreelancePoliceman, Do you think the draining issue here is due to your introversion or is it specific to the draw on the creative function?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic 007 View Post
    Ummm.. so female thinkers and male feelers might want to keep with their own kin? It would take a lot for me to end up with female thinker in most cases.

    Yeah. I think female logician (at the least) would want someone MORE masculine than herself, so she would seek out a male logician.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redundantoxymoron View Post
    Yeah. I think female logician (at the least) would want someone MORE masculine than herself, so she would seek out a male logician.
    Interesting. I guess that's plausible... also, perhaps due to being a logical type, he would be less likely to try to enforce on her what a woman "should" be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by remiges View Post
    Interesting. I guess that's plausible... also, perhaps due to being a logical type, he would be less likely to try to enforce on her what a woman "should" be.
    Yes, I can see that as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redundantoxymoron View Post
    Yeah. I think female logician (at the least) would want someone MORE masculine than herself, so she would seek out a male logician.
    Quote Originally Posted by remiges View Post
    Interesting. I guess that's plausible... also, perhaps due to being a logical type, he would be less likely to try to enforce on her what a woman "should" be.
    Quote Originally Posted by redundantoxymoron View Post
    Yes, I can see that as well.
    Re the above, my impression of male logicians is that they are potentially more... stable, compared to ethical types of guys. I get the sense that they take things other than just how they feel into account before entering a relationship. Ethical types seem to me like they would almost likely take people or good relationships for granted. I can learn emotionally at the same kind of pace as logical types too. However, as a woman my level of knowledge and experience in this realm is going to be a lot higher compared to the average logician guy at my age.

    I also don’t seek out guys who are more masculine than I am. The opposite actually.

    I could see ethical types trying to emotionally enforce things more, but only if they themselves feel pressured in the same way. Logical types would have similar motivations, just less means.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Re the above, my impression of male logicians is that they are potentially more... stable, compared to ethical types of guys. I get the sense that they take things other than just how they feel into account before entering a relationship. Ethical types seem to me like they would almost likely take people or good relationships for granted. I can learn emotionally at the same kind of pace as logical types too. However, as a woman my level of knowledge and experience in this realm is going to be a lot higher compared to the average logician guy at my age.

    I also donít seek out guys who are more masculine than I am. The opposite actually.

    I could see ethical types trying to emotionally enforce things more, but only if they themselves feel pressured in the same way. Logical types would have similar motivations, just less means.
    @sbbds, as a ďmale LogisticianĒ, I do take things other than how I feel into account when evaluating relationships.

    If I see a woman who looks attractive, I say to myself, ďOK, small first step. Sheís attractive. Now letís start doing some in-depth research.Ē

    I donít allow myself to fully ďlikeĒ someone in a romantic sense until Iíve really considered why I like her, and those reasons have to go far beyond a pretty face.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Re the above, my impression of male logicians is that they are potentially more... stable, compared to ethical types of guys. I get the sense that they take things other than just how they feel into account before entering a relationship. Ethical types seem to me like they would almost likely take people or good relationships for granted. I can learn emotionally at the same kind of pace as logical types too. However, as a woman my level of knowledge and experience in this realm is going to be a lot higher compared to the average logician guy at my age.

    I also donít seek out guys who are more masculine than I am. The opposite actually.

    I could see ethical types trying to emotionally enforce things more, but only if they themselves feel pressured in the same way. Logical types would have similar motivations, just less means.
    Re: stable, maybe. For me personally... and who knows, maybe I'm just a screwed up ESE (lmao)... I do not think I look for men more "masculine" than myself. In fact, I find it hard to understand precisely what that means: no, I do not do the makeup and the looking cute thing, but I'm not particularly aggressive or in your face, either, and I am not terrible at seeming "socially appropriate" at a distance. But yes, I agree with the fact I have had more experience in having to do this than men may have had in similar positions as myself.

    I do not seek out guys as a general rule, but if I did, he likely would be more stereotypically masculine than me, yes... of course, as above, I do not consider myself all that masculine, just maybe "not feminine," if you will, so take it with a grain of salt.
    @Adam Strange: Her being attractive is the first thing you look at, though you know you want more than a pretty face? What kind of research do you do when deciding to pursue it further or not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by redundantoxymoron View Post
    Yeah. I think female logician (at the least) would want someone MORE masculine than herself, so she would seek out a male logician.
    True, have this seen, a plethora of SLE gals trying to date other logical types, particularly LSEs and LSIs, and some ILE women will go with LIEs.
    It happens the other way around as well.

    Some time ago I attended a psych group that was applying Hellinger approach to let people either heal from failed relationships, family romantic or otherwise, or discover what it is what they were searching for in a relationship. There was a girl sitting at a chair next to me, kind of jittery and steely feel to her. We talked a few before it was her turn to go up. Turned out that the problem she came with was she was repeatedly dating men whom she viewed as being weaker than herself. Then she has tried dating "manly" men to find a man as strong as herself, but those relationships would inevitably fail and end. So in this group she wanted to discover what it was that pulled her towards men that she perceived being "weak" and why those other relationships have failed. Needless to say, she was a female of logical type, particularly an LSE, who, from her story, was dating Fi leading men whom she viewed as being weak and therefore not worthy of a relationship. So she'd shrug the Fi guys aside, try to date yet another ExTx, only to end up in yet another unsatisfying relationship that led her to attend these psych groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by remiges View Post
    Re: stable, maybe. For me personally... and who knows, maybe I'm just a screwed up ESE (lmao)... I do not think I look for men more "masculine" than myself. In fact, I find it hard to understand precisely what that means: no, I do not do the makeup and the looking cute thing, but I'm not particularly aggressive or in your face, either, and I am not terrible at seeming "socially appropriate" at a distance. But yes, I agree with the fact I have had more experience in having to do this than men may have had in similar positions as myself.

    I do not seek out guys as a general rule, but if I did, he likely would be more stereotypically masculine than me, yes... of course, as above, I do not consider myself all that masculine, just maybe "not feminine," if you will, so take it with a grain of salt.
    @Adam Strange: Her being attractive is the first thing you look at, though you know you want more than a pretty face? What kind of research do you do when deciding to pursue it further or not?
    @remiges, I first notice attractiveness because I’m a very visual person.

    When I was in my twenties, my criteria were basically that a woman be reasonably attractive and have a certain sexiness and that she be DTF. I really didn’t care much beyond that. As I’m sure you can imagine, this led to a lot of craziness and failed relationships.

    When I was nearing 30, I started looking for a woman who would be a good mother. Intelligence and a stable personality took precedence over looks or great sex. This led me to marry an intelligent, attractive but not sexy Caregiver, and this lasted until she decided that the time and available resources were right for her to bail.

    The next GF was basically a proof-of-Socionics project, and in that sense, was wildly successful.

    I am now looking for an attractive, intelligent ESI with at least a half-decent job, who doesn’t obviously have more problems than I do. Bonus points if she has artistic taste and is sexual. Jackpot if she’s able and wishing to have kids.

    I “research” a woman to find out if we are compatible simply by getting to know her better. I don’t actually stalk women because if I can’t find out what I want to know by being frank and open, then we probably don’t have a future in any case.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-22-2020 at 03:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I first notice attractiveness because Iím a very visual person.

    When I was in my twenties, my criteria were basically that a woman be reasonably attractive and have a certain sexiness and that she be DTF. I really didnít care much beyond that. As Iím sure you can imagine, this led to a lot of craziness and failed relationships.
    Interesting. Part of me wondered if how people were attracted to others was type-related (would be another interesting proof of Socionics type thing) but Iím wondering if it is actually more based on gender... Has a thread like this ever been made, I wonder?

    In general, what someone looks like is very low on my priority list. I often may not even notice what they look like, disregarding the extreme of really looking like a mess (ie, twigs in his hair, smelling like not having showered in a month).

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    True, have this seen, a plethora of SLE gals trying to date other logical types, particularly LSEs and LSIs, and some ILE women will go with LIEs.
    It happens the other way around as well.

    Some time ago I attended a psych group that was applying Hellinger approach to let people either heal from failed relationships, family romantic or otherwise, or discover what it is what they were searching for in a relationship. There was a girl sitting at a chair next to me, kind of jittery and steely feel to her. We talked a few before it was her turn to go up. Turned out that the problem she came with was she was repeatedly dating men whom she viewed as being weaker than herself. Then she has tried dating "manly" men to find a man as strong as herself, but those relationships would inevitably fail and end. So in this group she wanted to discover what it was that pulled her towards men that she perceived being "weak" and why those other relationships have failed. Needless to say, she was a female of logical type, particularly an LSE, who, from her story, was dating Fi leading men whom she viewed as being weak and therefore not worthy of a relationship. So she'd shrug the Fi guys aside, try to date yet another ExTx, only to end up in yet another unsatisfying relationship that led her to attend these psych groups.
    Society trains people to look for those who are successful. ExTx are often very successful in the traditional sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    True, have this seen, a plethora of SLE gals trying to date other logical types, particularly LSEs and LSIs, and some ILE women will go with LIEs.
    It happens the other way around as well.

    Some time ago I attended a psych group that was applying Hellinger approach to let people either heal from failed relationships, family romantic or otherwise, or discover what it is what they were searching for in a relationship. There was a girl sitting at a chair next to me, kind of jittery and steely feel to her. We talked a few before it was her turn to go up. Turned out that the problem she came with was she was repeatedly dating men whom she viewed as being weaker than herself. Then she has tried dating "manly" men to find a man as strong as herself, but those relationships would inevitably fail and end. So in this group she wanted to discover what it was that pulled her towards men that she perceived being "weak" and why those other relationships have failed. Needless to say, she was a female of logical type, particularly an LSE, who, from her story, was dating Fi leading men whom she viewed as being weak and therefore not worthy of a relationship. So she'd shrug the Fi guys aside, try to date yet another ExTx, only to end up in yet another unsatisfying relationship that led her to attend these psych groups.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Society trains people to look for those who are successful. ExTx are often very successful in the traditional sense.
    In my particular case, my LSE mother made it clear from the first that Feelers were stupid and I was expected to marry someone who would reflect well on the family. Lol. Clearly a case of do what I say, not what I do. She married an SLI who was smart, yes, but she did not set a great example when it came to being a good mother. Her goal was to make it appear to others that her family was perfect. But inside the family, the beatings would continue until the attitudes improved.

    I swear, @Aramas. People move through three stages of attraction. The first stage is to be attracted to someone like your parents, for the lizard brain and maybe approval, or for the purpose of working out something that went seriously wrong with a parent, using someone who is like them, but is not them.
    The second stage is to be attracted to someone like yourself, for validation, and because it's quick and easy.
    The third stage is to be attracted to someone who will help you grow into a better person.

    I think your classmate was at stage 1 or stage 2.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-22-2020 at 05:23 PM.

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    Attracted to someone like your parents? Yikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bouncingoffclouds View Post
    Isn't part of the thing with ESI and LIE that they kind of enjoy fighting with each other? Seems like I read that some where. Fight/struggle and then have passionate makeup session
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I remember reading that, too, @bouncingoffclouds. I have no experience of it, though, outside of me telling an ESI that her feminine pink earmuffs go well with her chainsaw, and her telling me that I'm color blind.

    I'd call that push and push back.
    Reading this brought me back to when ppl would say my animosity towards @Adam Strange was some aggressor victim thing, lol. Now that the animosity has been observed over time to be faded, maybe bitches will believe me when I say that it unequivocally was not.

    (As for the "enjoying fighting" thing, I might hesitatingly acknowledge in retrospect how it has contributed to long term relationship interest or something, but it's not like I pick fights for fun or get turned on in the moment.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    In my particular case, my LSE mother made it clear from the first that Feelers were stupid and I was expected to marry someone who would reflect well on the family. Lol. Clearly a case of do what I say, not what I do. She married an SLI who was smart, yes, but she did not set a great example when it came to being a good mother. Her goal was to make it appear to others that her family was perfect. But inside the family, the beatings would continue until the attitudes improved.

    I swear, @Aramas. People move through three stages of attraction. The first stage is to be attracted to someone like your parents, for the lizard brain and maybe approval, or for the purpose of working out something that went seriously wrong with a parent, using someone who is like them, but is not them.
    The second stage is to be attracted to someone like yourself, for validation, and because it's quick and easy.
    The third stage is to be attracted to someone who will help you grow into a better person.

    I think your classmate was at stage 1 or stage 2.
    What do you swear?

    Those three stages sound fictional to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enmity View Post
    Attracted to someone like your parents? Yikes.
    I'm not often attracted to anyone I'm compatible with. Actually, I don't think it's ever happened. There must be some reason for it. Or maybe there isn't?

    I met someone about two years ago who was like my dad. Instant instinctive hatred on sight. So Adam's stages don't follow for me.

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    I agree with Aramas. Your experiences are not universal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enmity View Post
    Attracted to someone like your parents? Yikes.
    Not unusual. I mean not exactly like or even same type, but similar (as in NF or ST for instance). That has been true in my experience, but it's not a huge sample size.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Society trains people to look for those who are successful. ExTx are often very successful in the traditional sense.
    Society also trains women specifically to marry up. So ExTx women, who are more likely to be successful in the way you describe, are unlikely to seek ExTx men then. Which is oddly enough in conflict with the original idea @silke

    lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    The first stage is to be attracted to someone like your parents, for the lizard brain and maybe approval, or for the purpose of working out something that went seriously wrong with a parent, using someone who is like them, but is not them.
    The second stage is to be attracted to someone like yourself, for validation, and because it's quick and easy.
    The third stage is to be attracted to someone who will help you grow into a better person.
    I wonder what happens though if your parent(s) are your dual, semidual, or activator type. I'm not sure of my type yet (40Q linked in signature) but overall I lean towards LII or at least LxI and have been typed as such the most often. My parents are ESE and IEE. My sister is SLI, probably. So we're our parents' duals, most likely. I wonder if that impacts dual seeking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redundantoxymoron View Post
    I wonder what happens though if your parent(s) are your dual, semidual, or activator type. I'm not sure of my type yet (40Q linked in signature) but overall I lean towards LII or at least LxI and have been typed as such the most often. My parents are ESE and IEE. My sister is SLI, probably. So we're our parents' duals, most likely. I wonder if that impacts dual seeking.
    My SLI ex-wife has a sister who is her dual. It was never stated, but they were so close that I instinctively knew (long before I knew anything about Socionics) that if my ex-wife could save only one of us, it would be her sister, not me.

    Her father was LSE and her mother was almost certainly IEI, although I never met her. That's just from the many descriptions. When her father abandoned the family, she had to live with her sisters and her IEI mother, who basically gave up on parenting, so my ex-wife had to take on the role of Mother to the family. I'm not certain how much this affected her, but she married a guy who was a lot like her abandoning father (me, an LIE). Maybe she was trying to fix things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enmity View Post
    I agree with Aramas. Your experiences are not universal.
    True, my experiences are not universal, but I once took an informal poll here and asked who has an SO whose type is the same as one of their parents, and about half answered that they did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    True, my experiences are not universal, but I once took an informal poll here and asked who has an SO whose type is the same as one of their parents, and about half answered that they did.
    That's putting a lot of faith in most people's ability to type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    That's putting a lot of faith in most people's ability to type.
    Well, you have to start somewhere. And I'm assuming better than average results here, because even if a person is not good at identifying a particular type, I imagine that they will be fairly good at identifying two people who are similar to each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    I'm not often attracted to anyone I'm compatible with. Actually, I don't think it's ever happened. There must be some reason for it. Or maybe there isn't?

    I met someone about two years ago who was like my dad. Instant instinctive hatred on sight. So Adam's stages don't follow for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by enmity View Post
    I agree with Aramas. Your experiences are not universal.
    It’s more common than not, though of course you wouldn’t consciously want to recognize it. People get into patterns of interaction and imago-like triggers that begin in childhood. You’d need to really meta-analyze to see it in some cases, but it’s almost always an element there in the relationship, fueling the “inexplicable attraction”.

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    My dual bullied me lmao

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