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Thread: pitfall: IEE-LSE work relations

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    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    Default pitfall: IEE-LSE work relations

    Well, it happened again, I fell into a well know pitfall working with an LSE chef the past weeks again. And an all too familiar pattern emerged again: I am physically drained, because in my attempts to make things work and perform increasingly better, I again made the impression I could handle more.

    But what happened in the meantime, is that I made suggestions to the chef on how to work more efficient in the long run. Things he agreed to, but never followed up. What I learned this time, is that LSEs are perfect operational managers, meaning they can handle day-to-day affairs, but extending the planning of work to a whole week is rather problematic, with the result that I am constantly being overtaken by events, causing unnecessary extra work.

    I simply can't work long term with LSEs, they make life more complicated then needs to be, but compensate for this by speeding up a bit. I'd rather work with SLI chefs, who are more inclined to do what must be done (and not a thing more), and protect me against my own pitfalls.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Doesn’t this LSE see that you can not handle more? I would be very clear to them and say “I can not handle more.” Delta NF don’t do emotional displays like getting on the floor and protesting the end of us “oh I can not do more I am dying!!!” No drama here and no victims here. Just say you do not do more output and ask him to take on more tasks. He will... LSE take on a giant share of work when it’s required or he will tell you what is worth doing or not in his logic of actions
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    Doesn’t this LSE see that you can not handle more? I would be very clear to them and say “I can not handle more.” Delta NF don’t do emotional displays like getting on the floor and protesting the end of us “oh I can not do more I am dying!!!” No drama here and no victims here. Just say you do not do more output and ask him to take on more tasks. He will... LSE take on a giant share of work when it’s required or he will tell you what is worth doing or not in his logic of actions
    It is not just this LSE, it's all LSEs, in interaction with IEEs. I don't blame them, it's the activity dynamics in action, it is about effects unspoken, you could discuss is, but it would rear its ugly head nonetheless. They probably get frustrated by my expectations just as well: they simply can't keep up with the big picture perspectives I suggest to them. It seems like they seem to get it, but in practice it is beyond their capabilities to act upon it.

    This is how it works: there is a problem with planning, at some moments the work load, especially Monday morning when everything has to be made from scratch, is sky-high. So I suggest a different way of working, anticipating high workloads upfront, whereas the average LSE would respond to a high workload simply by speeding up and working harder, but from my perspective this a a way of working reactive, instead of pro-active, something that involves not only extreme work pressure and stress, but also risks, because: what if someone calls in sick? What if unexpected orders come in? Lunch has to be ready by 11:30, no matter what! This is what happened the past few weeks: with an epidemic of flu, one person after another called in sick, causing extra work load for the rest of us, and missed revenue because some products could not be made in time. 11:30 is the unavoidable deadline!

    My suggestions to spread the load and reduce risks did not seem to fall on deaf ears with the chef. I am in charge of preparing the salad bar, and I suggested that instead of preparing it in the morning, I would prepare it at the end of the day and not leave until it was ready. This has two advantages: the risk is reduced and I do not have to work towards a hard deadline of 11:30. I can use this lack of deadline to produce larger batches of food, reduce the number actions on individual tasks, in effect, work a little bit more upfront to save large amounts of time later during the week. The focus is now on preparing food, not on meeting a deadline. The chef likes it, let me do my thing, but does not seem to keep up his end of the bargain, which is that he has to organize the rest of the kitchen to make this possible (e.g. stock up in time and in the proper amounts, because when he orders 8 pounds of mushroom when I asked him for 16, it means I have to prepare them twice when I could have prepared them in one go tor two days). Ergo, I put in a lot more work, but because things are done ineffectively elsewhere (i.e. more responding to events than anticipating them), all time saved on my behalf is used by others to save them time, such as other 'stealing' stuff from my mise-en-place to prepare sandwhiches, which solves their problem, but they forget that it creates a new problem for me. Not to mention that the chef sends more work my way, when my intention was to reduce my hours to the 30 hours per week I want to work. I thought we already had an agreement that I would work 30 hours this week, but somehow the chef seems to think that the work which took me 40 hours last week, can also be done in 30 hours without him making provisions for the 10 hours I am supposed to work less (i.e. extra hands).

    Now what I want to stress here, is not that LSEs are bastards, idiots or whatever, they aren't. What I want to show here, is the dynamics between IEEs and LSEs in the work place, how this interaction leads to misunderstanding and wrong expectations in both directions. He can't match my expectations, and I can't match his. This is what leads to mutual exhaustion: physical for the IEE, and psychological for the LSE.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    It is not just this LSE, it's all LSEs, in interaction with IEEs. I don't blame them, it's the activity dynamics in action, it is about effects unspoken, you could discuss is, but it would rear its ugly head nonetheless. They probably get frustrated by my expectations just as well: they simply can't keep up with the big picture perspectives I suggest to them. It seems like they seem to get it, but in practice it is beyond their capabilities to act upon it.

    This is how it works: there is a problem with planning, at some moments the work load, especially Monday morning when everything has to be made from scratch, is sky-high. So I suggest a different way of working, anticipating high workloads upfront, whereas the average LSE would respond to a high workload simply by speeding up and working harder, but from my perspective this a a way of working reactive, instead of pro-active, something that involves not only extreme work pressure and stress, but also risks, because: what if someone calls in sick? What if unexpected orders come in? Lunch has to be ready by 11:30, no matter what! This is what happened the past few weeks: with an epidemic of flu, one person after another called in sick, causing extra work load for the rest of us, and missed revenue because some products could not be made in time. 11:30 is the unavoidable deadline!

    My suggestions to spread the load and reduce risks did not seem to fall on deaf ears with the chef. I am in charge of preparing the salad bar, and I suggested that instead of preparing it in the morning, I would prepare it at the end of the day and not leave until it was ready. This has two advantages: the risk is reduced and I do not have to work towards a hard deadline of 11:30. I can use this lack of deadline to produce larger batches of food, reduce the number actions on individual tasks, in effect, work a little bit more upfront to save large amounts of time later during the week. The focus is now on preparing food, not on meeting a deadline. The chef likes it, let me do my thing, but does not seem to keep up his end of the bargain, which is that he has to organize the rest of the kitchen to make this possible (e.g. stock up in time and in the proper amounts, because when he orders 8 pounds of mushroom when I asked him for 16, it means I have to prepare them twice when I could have prepared them in one go tor two days). Ergo, I put in a lot more work, but because things are done ineffectively elsewhere (i.e. more responding to events than anticipating them), all time saved on my behalf is used by others to save them time, such as other 'stealing' stuff from my mise-en-place to prepare sandwhiches, which solves their problem, but they forget that it creates a new problem for me. Not to mention that the chef sends more work my way, when my intention was to reduce my hours to the 30 hours per week I want to work. I thought we already had an agreement that I would work 30 hours this week, but somehow the chef seems to think that the work which took me 40 hours last week, can also be done in 30 hours without him making provisions for the 10 hours I am supposed to work less (i.e. extra hands).

    Now what I want to stress here, is not that LSEs are bastards, idiots or whatever, they aren't. What I want to show here, is the dynamics between IEEs and LSEs in the work place, how this interaction leads to misunderstanding and wrong expectations in both directions. He can't match my expectations, and I can't match his. This is what leads to mutual exhaustion: physical for the IEE, and psychological for the LSE.
    What can we do to help make things easier for you? Do you want me to come to your work?
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    What can we do to help make things easier for you? Do you want me to come to your work?
    Socionics teaches us that there is no way to make it easier. But I have solved the problem, by asking my agency not to send me there anymore.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Socionics teaches us that there is no way to make it easier. But I have solved the problem, by asking my agency not to send me there anymore.
    Well I am supposed to provide the best advice and support to you... Socionics
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    I see two options in your case:
    - Te-Ni the shit out the situation: create shopping lists/excel sheets, make reunions with your colleagues about 'stolen' food, go through the steps that changed with your chef (not in talk, actually show them, bc LSEs are incapable of coming up with new plans themselves, that stresses them out), etc...
    - the Ti-Si cop-out: just do your work at the pace that's comfortable and let people see that you can't deal with more. Leave after 30 work hours and just don't give a shit.

    I would actually try the first one but go with the second one after one unsuccessful trial. Too lazy to take responsability for other people's errors. Actually I would already have taken action long ago instead of complaining on a socionics forum. You sure you're not EII?
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    - the Ti-Si cop-out: just do your work at the pace that's comfortable and let people see that you can't deal with more. Leave after 30 work hours and just don't give a shit.
    I know that post isn't about me but that description fits me.

    Usually when I quit a job then I don't care about what will happen to the company or my left behind co-workers. I can tell jokes to them one day and leave the company and the people there next day without thinking about them anymore.
    I never establish personal relations at a work place.

    I fulfill a Ti-Si + Te role when there is no demand for my Ne at a Job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    I see two options in your case:
    - Te-Ni the shit out the situation: create shopping lists/excel sheets, make reunions with your colleagues about 'stolen' food, go through the steps that changed with your chef (not in talk, actually show them, bc LSEs are incapable of coming up with new plans themselves, that stresses them out), etc...
    - the Ti-Si cop-out: just do your work at the pace that's comfortable and let people see that you can't deal with more. Leave after 30 work hours and just don't give a shit.

    I would actually try the first one but go with the second one after one unsuccessful trial. Too lazy to take responsability for other people's errors. Actually I would already have taken action long ago instead of complaining on a socionics forum. You sure you're not EII?
    First of all, I am not complaining, I am just using this case as an example of how beautifully Socionics works out. If I hadn't known about Socionics, I would be frustrated because I would not have understood what happened, but I do understand what happened, so now I can simply shrug and say, fuck it, this is the same old IEE-LSE activation story rearing its ugly head again, it is not going to change, so no point in doing it any longer. And isn't that the basic message Socionics has for us: to select situations with predictable favorable outcomes? That is why I am not frustrated in this particular case: unlike failing and even more difficult interactions with other types, there are no hard feelings towards the Chefs, since we both try to do out best.

    Second of all, I'm pretty certain I am IEE and not EII, although I am strongly inclined towards Fi. I know this because I have seen how LSE-EII interactions work out: like IEE-SLI interactions, LSEs protect EIIs from overexertion. And it is pretty obvious that the cause of the problems is the exchange between Lead-Te and Mobilizing-Te, and Lead-Ne and Mobilizing-Ne.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    I notice you seem to think other IEE's aren't IEE's and think you should be the one re-checking your type.

    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    I see two options in your case:
    - Te-Ni the shit out the situation: create shopping lists/excel sheets, make reunions with your colleagues about 'stolen' food, go through the steps that changed with your chef (not in talk, actually show them, bc LSEs are incapable of coming up with new plans themselves, that stresses them out), etc...
    - the Ti-Si cop-out: just do your work at the pace that's comfortable and let people see that you can't deal with more. Leave after 30 work hours and just don't give a shit.

    I would actually try the first one but go with the second one after one unsuccessful trial. Too lazy to take responsability for other people's errors. Actually I would already have taken action long ago instead of complaining on a socionics forum. You sure you're not EII?
    "I am my own muse. I am the subject I know best, the subject I want to know better."
    4 core, sx/so slight sx bend, IEE-Fi Harmonic or Normalizing




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    lkdhf qkb's Avatar
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    Yeah could also be
    Jg djwjmjabujpo jt up tvswjwf, xf nvtu dvmujwbuf uif tdjfodf pg ivnbo sfmbujpotijqt - uif bcjmjuz pg bmm qfpqmft, pg bmm ljoet, up mjwf uphfuifs, jo uif tbnf xpsme bu qfbdf.
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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    nah, all of you are IEE
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Rebelondeck's Avatar
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    These two are head-butters but for different reasons and when they butt heads too much they get headaches. When they argue they seem to be on different planets so play seems to be the only arena where they seem to relax with one another......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    These two are head-butters but for different reasons and when they butt heads too much they get headaches. When they argue they seem to be on different planets so play seems to be the only arena where they seem to relax with one another......

    a.k.a. I/O
    That is exactly how it is. The frustrating aspect is that the 'play' seems promising, but cannot be carried over to the work sphere.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    That is exactly how it is. The frustrating aspect is that the 'play' seems promising, but cannot be carried over to the work sphere.
    Play isn't as serious although people can seriously compete; however, losing at play may affect one ego but not one's livelihood or future. Work is dead serious so differences in priority and approach toward a common goal can draw out fear and criticism. I have noted that work environments can create scenarios akin to marriages, which also have that serious element.......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Thank you for this post. It has helped an ESTj friend understand how to work with an ENFp. Also, if you would post more specific conversations and exchanges I would greatly appreciate it @consentingadults because a lot of what you posted here is a very general description of processes not necessarily a specific conversation
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    I do not believe that the content of specific conversations would be of any help, because the conversations themselves are not the problem. The problems arising from interactions (between whatever types) are much more on emotional and sub-conscious levels. I can only provide examples of what I think are essences in the interactions between types.

    One such example: in the example provided above, a problem occurred on the last day I worked at that place. The day before I had finished preparing my salad bar completely and agreed with the chef to start at 10:45, which meant I would come in and build up my salad bar for lunch. One of the reasons, I told the chef, that I wanted to prepare the salad bar each day before, is that if someone calls in sick, he could call me to come in early and do extra work. Or if I myself call in sick, he has no problem, because the salad bar has already been done.

    It so happened that at night, another colleague was called out of bed at 2AM by the police with the message that his nephew had just died in a car accident, and asked if he wanted to go tell the boy's mother, his sister. So this cook calls in at 6:30AM that he can't come because of faily circumstances. So what does this chef do? He reorganizes the work, everybody speeds up their tempo, some work is dropped, until he realizes at 8:55AM that this it's not going to work. So what does he do? He sends me a text message at 8:55AM asking if I can come in earlier, while I am still sleeping, instead of CALLING ME so the ringing phone actually wakes me out of my sleep. Now I do not see the message until I pick up my phone at 9:55, 5 minutes before I'm to leave for work at my regular departure time. He should have CALLED ME at 6:30AM and all his problems would have been solved, but alas! To go short: a missed opportunity, caused by LSE's nature to act in the moment, reactive instead of pro-active, by putting in extra effort instead of forward planning. Such an attitude is both an asset as it is a liability. This is why LSEs need EIIs: to make sure a cognitive style is contained to the state of being just an asset. I have seen it time after time: IEEs can't prevent LSEs from making such errors, and vice versa.

    This is what I find very pleasant in my interactions with SLI chefs: They see both my potential as well as my limits when working as a chef, and accommodate for that, which ultimately brings out the most in me in term of production output without me burning out.
    Last edited by consentingadult; 12-01-2019 at 12:53 PM.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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