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Thread: Hating Society

  1. #1
    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    Default Hating Society

    Thoughts that came from sbbds's questionnaire thread (plugged here) but I didn't wanna stray too far from topic.

    Do you consciously/actively have a hatred for society?

    I guess the definition of such is open and vague, but according to my own understanding, I don't hate it, I just see it as something that IS, like air. It has qualities that entertain and/or educate me, as well as, yeah, hateful aspects. It's just a thing, that's like, u know, totally THERE, and stuff.

    And what's your instinct stacking? I'm sp/sx. The one type thing that has gone unquestioned in like 15-20 years, so accept it.

    Do you think said hatred and instinct stacking are related? I don't think about such things myself, but I often like to listen to ppl make abstract generalizations or wax philosophical about shit (I'm a member of this forum, right?) So have at it.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Will respond later!

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    Idk what it means to hate society. Does it mean hating the people around you, hating your government, hating social norms? Idk. I guess I don't hate it, bc I don't even really know what that would mean. Is it hating civilization? But, everyone here is using the internet and not living off-the-grid in a cabin in Alaska or something, so ? I hate oppressive government and monitoring, and anything that excessively curtails my autonomy if that's what they mean.

    On a maybe related note? I don't hate small-talk. A lot of people say they do, but it doesn't bother me at all. If some random person wants to chat a bit about their life and pass the time that way while waiting in a line or whatever idk why that would be a problem. I'll listen. People end up telling me some interesting things that start out as this sort of thing, if you shut down the icebreaker you never get to hear the good stuff. Some people don't have anything interesting to say, and that's fine too. Emotivist/constructivist divide? idk

    edit: Forgot to list my instinct stacking. it's sx/sp and I guess maybe ppl with social instinct would be more aware of society and form a stronger opinion of it?

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    f.k.a Oprah sbbds's Avatar
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    I was mostly joking lol. I guess though I don’t like certain social norms or any sort of pressure to follow them. I don’t like having to act domesticated all the time.

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    a two horned unicorn renegade Heretic 007's Avatar
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    Nah, just customs and seeing people as a mass going through motions. It makes you think, it makes you nihilistic.
    Measuring you right now

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    Uh... it obviously depends on which society. Some societies may be genuinely shitty and worth hating, while some other societies may be pretty good.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    I guess the definition of such is open and vague, but according to my own understanding, I don't hate it, I just see it as something that IS, like air.
    The only question is, do you have something to compare it to? Because obviously you can't judge something if you can't compare it to something else, therefore it might just seem like "air" without comparison. Values only exist if you say that something is better or worse than the other.

    I've been thinking about what "hate" even means, and how you cannot have hate without comparing it to something else. Say that you hate someone, and you'd rather not be with him. But that's only because you'd rather be with someone else, like someone that you love. You cannot really hate someone, without comparing how someone is better or worse than the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    Do you think said hatred and instinct stacking are related? I don't think about such things myself, but I often like to listen to ppl make abstract generalizations or wax philosophical about shit (I'm a member of this forum, right?) So have at it.
    Even if it's related to "sp/sx" or whatever, does that mean that you've been pre-programmed since birth to hate society forever? Seems doubtful.

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    Piggybacking off what Squark said, I used to hate small talk, but I guess I, developed the skill for it. I don't mind it so much anymore. Sometimes it can lead to more interesting talks.

    I don't hate society, but maybe certain expectations and "norms" like Sb said, I more hate what happens to people when they are different and expectations to fit into a certain mold (or being looked down on if you don't fit well into it). How you view society is probably pretty dependent on where you live too ofc. The small talk thing kind of ties into this, since small talk often includes questions like, what do you do for work, are you married, do you have a family etc. Some people's reactions can be odd if you're like "I don't want to build a family", but honestly, f*** those people.
    Last edited by bouncingoffclouds; 11-19-2019 at 07:43 PM.
    "I am my own muse. I am the subject I know best, the subject I want to know better."
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    I assume what is meant is current society, whatever that means for you, and not society as it can ever or has ever existed or some platonic ideal of society. Those last options seem ridiculous to think you could know the answer to.

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    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    The only question is, do you have something to compare it to? Because obviously you can't judge something if you can't compare it to something else, therefore it might just seem like "air" without comparison. Values only exist if you say that something is better or worse than the other
    This makes sense, maybe my indifference is due to the fact that I don't have some good or ideal society in mind that the one in my location and time could negatively be contrasted with.

    After giving it a couple seconds thought, I came to a similar conclusion wrt enneagram instincts as @squark, and I think this line of reasoning lends itself to that. (I know you don't like the type stuff, but it belongs in the same post)

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    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    I assume what is meant is current society, whatever that means for you, and not society as it can ever or has ever existed or some platonic ideal of society. Those last options seem ridiculous to think you could know the answer to.
    Yeah. I didn't *wanna* be too specific (alongside struggling with the specificity thing), cuz that could cut out some responses. But this, yes.

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    As much as there are things to hate in current society, there's a lot of good that only exists because of it. It's sort of the argument that coordinated human activity increases the total amount of good or bad possible in the world, and the balance is more apt to shift wildly depending on what happens because the quantities of good and bad are so much greater than what hunter gatherers had. So you could hate it because it's bad for you or you feel powerless to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    This makes sense, maybe my indifference is due to the fact that I don't have some good or ideal society in mind that the one in my location and time could negatively be contrasted with.

    After giving it a couple seconds thought, I came to a similar conclusion wrt enneagram instincts as @squark, and I think this line of reasoning lends itself to that. (I know you don't like the type stuff, but it belongs in the same post)
    That is actually interesting.

    But it doesn't necessarily have to be some ideal, it could be based on experiences of being exposed to different cultures or countries.

    If you've ever only known a single person in your entire life, can you hate him? Or can you even love him? What does "love" and "hate" would even mean in that context? I don't think that you can love or hate someone without comparison. And if that's the case for people, then it should be the same for things, or abstract ideas.

    Say you might've grown up with abusive parents, and you thought you "loved" them. Or at least, you were indifferent or had no special thoughts. Until you've met some other parents, and started to think that your parents are a little different, or odd. Then you start to find out that they were even abusive towards you. They treated you horribly. Other parents were much nicer to you than them, and you started to prefer them instead. You start to resent your own parents, and even start to feel "hatred" for them. That's when the split of "love" and "hate" started: you made comparisons about who is better than whom.

    But some people say "I hate society (in general)" without ever being exposed to some other society. Or they don't like how they're being treated by society. Does that mean that they're consciously or unconsciously comparing to some ideal society, like how society "should" be?

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    Landlady of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
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    I don't hate it. I just find it Baffling and rather Conservative generally.

    edit: I have thought that I am sp/so, although it has also been said that I am so/sp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    I was mostly joking lol. I guess though I don’t like certain social norms or any sort of pressure to follow them. I don’t like having to act domesticated all the time.
    The last phrase just makes me imagine peeing on things and howling in public, which is basically why people get drunk. Maybe we could decrease the amount of public drunkenness by allowing people to pee on the passing subway train. I'm kidding, since that's what private space is for anyways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I don't hate it. I just find it Baffling and rather Conservative generally.

    edit: I have thought that I am sp/so, although it has also been said that I am so/sp.
    If you're not doomed, you're contraflow. Honestly, I would think only Sx/So is truly not doomed since Sx is more "self-actualization" than sex, but nearly everyone wants lots of sex anyways.
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    Autochauvinist Grendel's Avatar
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    More often than not I've noticed that the terms "prosocial" or "eusocial" are code for "fucking over the defenseless few in the name of keeping the machines running," and "sociopath" code for "bad at swimming through the social aether/climbing up the pyramid."
    I despise utilitarianism and I despise how walled-off and cluttered this world has become. There's nowhere to go and breathe and sing for ten damn seconds without some vulture fining you for the air you've breathed.

    "The people of the future will yet fight their way to many freedoms we don't even miss."
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    Shut the fuck up, dumbass.


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    From a large scale I love my society like my country and where I come from, but on a smaller scale like my classroom I can sometimes hate it. I’m SX/sp in the sense that I am my own self. I like to join book clubs or anime clubs or even sports club, in which I get to interact with people as myself, rather than joining social variant clubs like sororities. I can’t stand sorority like mentality.

    I also don’t socialize for the sake of socializing. It has to be fun and with people I like. I also like my sp, it’s a big part of me, so unless it’s good I’m not interested. I think sp keeps me from hating society, because the SX/so are in my opinion more prone to it. SX/sos leave their door open so much that people use them, and they end up hating society even more than an SX/sp.

    I’ve seen SO/sps hate society when they don’t share the same values as the people who are on the top of the hierarchy.

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    I would definitely say I do harbor quite a bit salt towards society, mostly for having been forced into the hellhole known as school, destroying nature and indigenous ways of living, and of course having to suck police dick. In video games like Total War Warhammer that deal with Chaos vs Order I always choose chaos and thoroughly enjoy smashing those Empire scum.

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    I wonder if there are any societies where farting around others is openly encouraged. There must be. I wonder what they are like.

    It might be my #1 problem with society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    I wonder if there are any societies where farting around others is openly encouraged. There must be. I wonder what they are like.

    It might be my #1 problem with society.
    But if it was truly acceptable in Western world we wouldn't have blossoming whoopee cushion industry.
    Measuring you right now

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    I wonder if there are any societies where farting around others is openly encouraged. There must be. I wonder what they are like.

    It might be my #1 problem with society.
    There are such societies. They are called third grade.

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    I don't know if I hate it, but I feel like we've all been dragged into something we didn't consent to, and I have quite a hard time adapting and adjusting to it. As soon as possible, I'm moving out into the woods to work towards being as self-sufficient as possible. I don't like urban life, how self-important people are, thinking they've got somewhere important to go, the cultural starvation, consumerism, lack of dignity and spirituality of our times, selfishness, shallowness, irrelevance etc...

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    Oh I’m pretty sure I’ve said I hate society before. Probably after feeling bit by it. I probably shouldn’t have blamed society in general, sometimes group behavior just seems like it sucks. But there is a reason for everything. Sometimes it works with you and sometimes against you.
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    I used to because I didn't understand it for the most part.

    I'm very detached from society to actively hate it. I found the perfect balance for me where I don't have to follow all the social norms I'm not comfortable with. It's not an ongoing process. I don't have all the answers. But I'm at peace.

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    Modern Western society is perhaps the most immoral civilization to ever exist, so I much prefer to keep my distance from the masses in whatever way I can. Generally, I'm too self-centered to accept myself as just being a small part of anything, so a Dantean role of the (self-)isolated prophet casting judgment on the world he lives in is attractive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dauphin View Post
    Modern Western society is perhaps the most immoral civilization to ever exist, so I much prefer to keep my distance from the masses in whatever way I can. Generally, I'm too self-centered to accept myself as just being a small part of anything, so a Dantean role of the (self-)isolated prophet casting judgment on the world he lives in is attractive.
    You don’t think it’s the opposite? Like is slavery and oppressed peoples of various forms being quickly culled or having more physical suffering better?

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    I like my society for the most part. As a culture it is accepting and at the battlefront in dealing with key note health issues like HIV, public concerns like Syphilis and anything else that comes up. On one hand I love seeing people of all walks of life and preferences walk around and on another I think we are being more accepting and I donít think I can live in a bigoted environment so this is home although people here can be nicer to one another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Armalite View Post
    I don't know if I hate it, but I feel like we've all been dragged into something we didn't consent to, and I have quite a hard time adapting and adjusting to it. As soon as possible, I'm moving out into the woods to work towards being as self-sufficient as possible. I don't like urban life, how self-important people are, thinking they've got somewhere important to go, the cultural starvation, consumerism, lack of dignity and spirituality of our times, selfishness, shallowness, irrelevance etc...
    What did you type yourself again?
    Thereís lots of spirituality in the city. The churches, the way people are concerned for the welfare of others. Itís not perfect but itís headed the right way. We are improving and learning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dauphin View Post
    Modern Western society is perhaps the most immoral civilization to ever exist, so I much prefer to keep my distance from the masses in whatever way I can. Generally, I'm too self-centered to accept myself as just being a small part of anything, so a Dantean role of the (self-)isolated prophet casting judgment on the world he lives in is attractive.
    Total opposite of me. I want to be among people just get tired of interacting. @Sol how do you type Dauphine?
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 11-24-2019 at 03:35 PM.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    You don’t think it’s the opposite? Like is slavery and oppressed peoples of various forms being quickly culled or having more physical suffering better?
    Suffering is not inherently evil, and in fact can be a way by which great people are made. Violence is something constant and it will remain constant til the end of days. I don't see how you could consider modern America to be the moral superior to Ancient Greece simply because the latter practiced slavery. It seems abundantly clear to me that we're lacking in any concept of justice, sublimity, heroic virtue, etc. We're a dying culture that's convinced itself that it's the height of human progress.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    What did you type yourself again?
    Beta NF Ni subtype > Ni-ILI > EII

    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    Thereís lots of spirituality in the city. The churches, the way people are concerned for the welfare of others. Itís not perfect but itís headed the right way. We are improving and learning.
    Not in Sweden. There's the political lobby organisation known as Church of Sweden, there's the Pentecostals and then there's the Catholic Church. All of them are very small here, and none of them appeal to me. This country is in spiritual starvation.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armalite View Post
    Beta NF Ni subtype > Ni-ILI > EII

    Not in Sweden. There's the political lobby organisation known as Church of Sweden, there's the Pentecostals and then there's the Catholic Church. All of them are very small here, and none of them appeal to me. This country is in spiritual starvation.
    Oh Iím sorry to hear that.
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    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    f.k.a Oprah sbbds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dauphin View Post
    Suffering is not inherently evil, and in fact can be a way by which great people are made. Violence is something constant and it will remain constant til the end of days. I don't see how you could consider modern America to be the moral superior to Ancient Greece simply because the latter practiced slavery. It seems abundantly clear to me that we're lacking in any concept of justice, sublimity, heroic virtue, etc. We're a dying culture that's convinced itself that it's the height of human progress.
    Ok but modern America compared to America a few decades ago... Ancient Greece was so long ago its too irrelevant and unrealistic to even consider now.

    Modern America is pretty much the single culture thatís been spreading and reinforcing the concept of justice and heroic virtue economically lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Ok but modern America compared to America a few decades ago... Ancient Greece was so long ago its too irrelevant and unrealistic to even consider now.

    Modern America is pretty much the single culture that’s been spreading and reinforcing the concept of justice and heroic virtue economically lol.
    As someone who somewhat fetishizes Greeks, Vikings, knights, and heroic people like that who think some things are more valuable than comfort, I think anyone who says "but mah Spartans" and doesn't take a cold shower voluntarily or at least hot to cold is a hypocrite. There are lots of opportunities for heroic stuff, probably more than ever because people are so comfortable they don't want them. And while not heating your water is not particularly heroic, if you do heat it you can't complain about comfort because no one is there making you be comfortable and blanch your skin as the steam rises off you for 30 minutes each morning.

    And now I know what the 16t Gift Exchange will be: knives, axes, machetes, paracord, ferromagnesium rods, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Ok but modern America compared to America a few decades ago... Ancient Greece was so long ago its too irrelevant and unrealistic to even consider now.
    We already have slavery and pederasty; all we'd have to do is make them more generally accepted.

    Modern America is pretty much the single culture that’s been spreading and reinforcing the concept of justice and heroic virtue economically lol.
    Does it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    We already have slavery and pederasty; all we'd have to do is make them more generally accepted.
    Ok... how is that different from anywhere else? In America it would receive a shitload of backlash and would be very difficult to accept, compared to other countries bc of the way things are governed and the psychological makeup of the people there.

    Does it?
    Yes. Sure it might be an overdone version, but a country that’s had more experience with economic freedom and power and complex social issues is going to be the most influential in this way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Ok... how is that different from anywhere else? In America it would receive a shitload of backlash and would be very difficult to accept, compared to other countries bc of the way things are governed and the psychological makeup of the people there.


    Yes. Sure it might be an overdone version, but a country that’s had more experience with economic freedom and power and complex social issues is going to be the most influential in this way.
    America: land of the SJWs and home of the triggered.

    (Put this way, the Right is basically projecting.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    America: land of the SJWs and home of the triggered.

    (Put this way, the Right is basically projecting.)
    Millions upon millions of triggered armed SJWs LMAO

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Ok but modern America compared to America a few decades ago... Ancient Greece was so long ago its too irrelevant and unrealistic to even consider now.

    Modern America is pretty much the single culture that’s been spreading and reinforcing the concept of justice and heroic virtue economically lol.
    America reached its peak with the Jefferson presidency and has been in a gradual decline since. It's clear you have a childish conception of justice and virtue that you have taken without question from whatever your preferred media are.
    Modern America is the Great Satan, as Khomeini referred to it. It exports nothing but corrosive neoliberalism and vulgarity.

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    Off to go chug some Mountain Dew. America.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dauphin View Post
    America reached its peak with the Jefferson presidency and has been in a gradual decline since. It's clear you have a childish conception of justice and virtue that you have taken without question from whatever your preferred media are.
    Modern America is the Great Satan, as Khomeini referred to it. It exports nothing but corrosive neoliberalism and vulgarity.
    It’s clear you’ve never had a real shit job or experienced a situation that lacked Western morals or justice @_@

    “Corrosive neoliberalism” is there to corrode even worse shit which you clearly haven’t experienced and lack the empathy and imagination to put yourself in the shoes of others to understand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    It’s clear you’ve never had a real shit job or experienced a situation that lacked Western morals or justice @_@

    “Corrosive neoliberalism” is there to corrode even worse shit which you clearly haven’t experienced and lack the empathy and imagination to put yourself in the shoes of others to understand.
    AMERICA: FUCK YEAH.
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